s-type coupe. it will be here. i will be in it. jaguar has a big, hot announcement you don't want to miss. that is here tomorrow at 5:00 p.m. eastern. "the willis report" is coming up next. >> hello, everybody, i'm gerri willis. tonight on "the willis report," obamacare chief kathleen sebelius on capitol hill defending the government's health care program and rejecting calls to delay the law. >> for millions of americans delay is not an option. gerri: student loan debt owed to you, taxpayers skyrockets under obama up 463%. what are we getting for hundreds of billions of dollars in spending? and it is the next hot thing, the twitter ipo. do you jump in or hashtag stay away? we're watching out for you tonight on "the willis report."

gerri: welcome to the "willis report", your show, your money, your voice. we start with the story that is impacting your health care tonight. should obamacare be delayed? the nation's top health care bureaucrat says, full steam ahead on the troubled program which is frustrating millions of us with website crashes and insurance cancellations. kathleen sebelius rejecting calls from republicans and democrats alike in a senate finance committee hearing today to delay the law. republican senator chuck grassley of iowa is finance committee member and he joins me now. senator, thanks for being with us tonight. tell me, was there a collective grown in the room when sebelius said, no, no delays? we will not delay implementation of obamacare? >> of course there was. let me tell you why this is a real political problem for the white house because, just evidenced by 14 democrats up for re-election in this cycle, going

down to the white house to meet with, i suppose the president and all the other people involved in trying to correct this situation. so i think that, particularly democrats answering that question, you're going to have a one-year delay for two reasons. one, because it is needed of the because the website is not working. number two, just as a matter of fairness. you have an employer mandate so big corporations are geting a year delay. why not the individual? gerri: well, makes great sense. as we know humana projected they will get a one year delay. today when the president met with democratic senators, apparently those democratic senators saying please, please delay this law, the president said no. look, democrats are becoming the big ccitics here. here is what senator max baucus had to say in today's hearing. >> you have to tell us what is going on can didly, fully, totally. >> yes. >> so we don't wake up in end of the november, lo and behold

still not there yet. gerri: senator, you have to ask yourself if the president is losing credibility? >> one measure that is because at love people in your business, you know, the media and media has been so friendly to him for five years and when they start attacking him. and also when you see the midnight shows that are, everybody watches and they make fun of things that are going on in this administration, you know that they're kind of on the edge. and i would think that it would be a real worry for the president. gerri: well, she was getting shot from all side today. orrin hatch, the senator, talking about the disasterous rollout. here's what he had to say. >> madam secretary, while i'm glad you are accepting responsibility for this disasterous rollout, i would have preferred that you and the rest of the administration were honest with us to begin with. -@no more caveats. no more excuses. no more spin. just give us the truth.

gerri: juut give us the truth, just that was repeated many times. of course your big concern has to do with fraud and privacy. tell us about your concerns. >> yeah. well, first of all 25 years ago i authored the false claims act that brings in about 35 to $40 billion into the federal treasury from fraudulent activities of various peoples and various economic interests and there's, they wrote some regulations that i'm, i'm sure they are not well-thought out that deprives the government of certain tools under false claims act and probably under other law as well. the fraudulent activity, these tools are not going to be available. i cannot imagine. gerri: senator, explain what you mean. what kind of things can they do i not be called on? >> any place where there is fraudulent use of taxpayer money

in under the false claims act you as a private citizen, even if you are not a lawyer, hire a lawyer. if you cannot get the justice department to go after it or in cooperation with the justice department, know about it, reported, and quite frankly that is how that $35 billion has got an end. under these circumstances if you have fraudulent use of taxpayer money under this ruling that they gave it would just -- and that she is testifying, by the way, today, you know, these tools are not available. a conflict of interest as an example. yes. gerri: okay. well, there were other concerns about privacy. this to say about his worries. listen to this. >> isn't it true that there is no federal requirement for navigators to undergo a criminal background check, even though they will receive personal -- sensitive personal information from the individuals they help sign up for the affordable care

act? >> that is true. >> so a convicted felon could be a navigator and could acquire sensitive personal information for an individual and denounced sen. >> that is possible. gerri: are you kidding me? is that the kind of level of competency that we have in this administration? sell this product to an unsuspecting person -- unsuspecting public. >> these people were hired of history very quickly with a lot of money being spent doing it and probably not even fully informed of what they need to know to help other people. also, in regard to privacy, i believe -- you may want to check this out, but i believe that there is even some question once you get your information into the website, if you are fortunate enough to do that there are some ways that that

information is a matter of privacy, not protected as well. gerri: the fact that these questions are not answered and the program has already been rolled out his astonishing to me. there is one other fact that came out today that i wanted to ask you about. finally, finally, finally, sebelius said she will reveal the number of people enrolled in the program. also it will be a very small number. what is your reaction? >> well, that small number means that it is not functioning properly and they can brag all about the numbers that they got, but look get what they have put out in september. by october 31st it might have 330,000 people enrolled. by the end of the year thhy will just think how short they ared. coming of the goal. gerri: unbelievable. senator grassley, think you for coming on the show. appreciate your time.

>> thank you, too. gerri: your show, your voice, your outrage. obamacare continues with reports that the law will likely increase the number of people getting through stamps big time. joining me now, a senior political columnist for the washington examiner. you know, the unintended consequences of this law are astonishing to me. a explain how we get more people on food stamps already one in seven in this country beccuse of obamacare? >> well, the law expands medicaid and also puts out people in this states on the folks you are eligible for medicaid but not yet receiving it. and those people are also eligible for food stamps. it is almost a recruiting mission. people who are eligible, not receiving it, they will be signed up. it is not necessarily expanding who is allowed to get income but it is is saying, if you're eligible we will make sure that you're on it.

gerri: the reality is in many states if you're eligible for medicaid you're automatically signed up for food stamps. in fact, you have to pick up the telephone and tell them that you do not want it. that is automatic this enrollment is. let me ask you the question now right, do we need more people on food stamps? and don't want to be the grinch that steals christmas, but at the end of the day we are already over spending. we have one in seven americans on the program with big questions about whether we can continue to afford what we're doing right now. >> i believe actually we need a safety net that no one should be allowed to go hungry in this country. but part of the liberal welfare state project is getting as many people as possible on to these government programs. you can imagine a homeless person or mentally ill person not getting the aid that they need. but in a lot of these cases there are people out there who it does not even cause their mind. you get these agencies,

navigators, nonprofit groups associated with the democratic party saying, hey, let's sign you up. that, for me, is a problem and they're trying to load people into the safety net so that it becomes this web tying them up rather than something that they are falling into when they needed to keep them from hitting rock bottom. gerri: we need a smarter government here to make the right choices, but the right people in the program and not just willy-nilly automatically jump people in. go ahead. >> it is problematic anytime you do it on a big and the federal level. you imagine a smaller, local safety net. even the town government. hey, there is someone there cannot afford to feed the kids. let's go take care of them. you're going to have these mismatches. and then you have these groups to have an incentive to give it to people who are not asking for it. gerri: well put.

cats in the farm bill will reduce the budget. 4 million from the senate. here we are. we will be dumping, you know, hundreds of thousands of people at a cost of millions. hundreds of millions into this program at the same time it looks like we will not be funding it. >> you could have the effect the people who never even occurred to them to go out and get food stamps getting more federal money. then maybe a single mom, may be a window with four children. her budget might end up being cut to satisfy other people who only signed up because they were pressured into doing it by obamacare navigators. gerri: that is tragic. thank you for coming on and explaining. we appreciate your time. we have more, more, more to come, including an answer to the question, how do you do that. the way to avoid online shopping pitfalls. you're probably doing that already. a cornerstone to the president's second term. student loan debt rising.

wait until you see how much worse coming up. ♪ with premium servi like one of the best at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in on-time delivery rords and a low claims ratio, we dwhatever it takes to make your busess our business. od. helping the world keep promises.

gerri: a harsh reality check for our nation's college students. the amount of outstanding student loans directly from the federal government's soaring, get this. 463 percent just since the president took office. joining me now, ron meyers, spokesman for the unamerican foundation and republican canada for josh to five congressman. welcome back to the show. why is this happening? >> first of all, in a obamacare funny enough they nationalized the student loan industry some 90 percent of it is controlled by the federal government. what we have seen since then is tuition has spiked. has gone up over 25%. we have seen average graduating student loan debt bill of nearly 20%. gerri: you're making the point that the fact that there is lot of free money means that colleges are not shy about boosting tuition.

is that right? >> i put it like this. the federal government is writing a blank check to higher education, but students have to foot the bill later on when they graduate. we are setting students up to fail because we are saying you should go to college by the way ii having diminishing returns. you cannot make a million dollars of your lifetime. they're not during people toward the economy. they're preparing him for the economy which is why we are failing. gerri: some of these numbers that we are talking about. we will get to the idea of the college education, but the steep rise in these numbers, unbelievable. you make comparisons between the fiscal years 2012 when there was 488 billion in loans going out the door. that is taxpayer money. now they are doing and in a single quarter. 2013, 5,609,000,000,000 out the door. the numbers are astonishing. this is maybe, you know, you

could say, this is something you might expect because we have nationaliie the industry, but was that in it the benefit of the people to get the private sector out? >> what has happened, the question i would ask, have students gotten a better education, saved money, cost gone down? no. we are in a depression right now . congress is ignoring. with the federal government is setting students indian graduates up to fail. i think it is a travesty, and we should have action on it now. we have an entire generation of young people that we are leaving off worse. if you go back to our parents and grandparents, they should be, i think, disgusted at what congress is doing. gerri: sorry to interrupt you, but it is not just young children who are burdened with this debt. more seniorsr before

because they're helping out their kids. is everyone in america who is affected by this. the answer from the administration, i want you to weigh in, to forget the debt. to say it can go away. that does not seem right. >> is a catch-22. and people have to pay off that debt anyway with interest. interest payments are one of the biggest travers' a debt. we have to pay to thousand dollars per year this year. just turned student loans into national debt is not a good thing. but we need a student loan reform where we put strings attacced on higher education, make them produce an education that tears people toward jobs, and congress is refusing to do in life for because they don't have young people. gerri: i have to disagree. the responsibility lies with the family. they have to make the hard decision about how much to spend and where to spend it because it is on their shoulders. they're not getting any help from washington right now. thank you for coming on. always good to see you.

so good on these topics. coming up later in the show, apple added began marking up the price of its products. is it really run the people i standing in line to buy them? and retailers are opening earlier and earlier this holiday season with many like kmart starting black friday. retailer is waging a war on thanksgiving. i love that holiday. don't do that. your reaction next. ♪ ♪ [ bell ringing, applause ] five tech ocks with more than a 10%... change in after-market trang. ♪ all the tech stocks with a market cap... of at least 50 billion... are up on the day. 12 low-volume stocks... breaking into 52-week highs. six upcoming earnings plays... that recently gapped up. [ male announcer ] now the world is your trading floor.

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♪ gerri: we just had a fascinating conversation.

i just got a sweet. why is all this? is teeseven generation of bad e. on to another topic. it is a war on thanksgiving. fresh out raids on social media as kmart announced it will stay open 41 hours starting at 6:00 a.m. customers are flocking to other retailers facebook page, many of them protesting. but aren't these deals all that great any way? joining me now by telephone, senior projects editor for consumer reports. welcome back to the show. always good to talk with you. even by telephone. people are upset about this. i want to read something that was posted on the facebook page

of kmart. same minute. i will never set foot in any of your stores again. i have family members that worked in retail. because of greedy retailers like you we will not be able to spend it the day with as. what do you make of that? >> that is tough stuff, but a lot of people feel that way. thanksgiving was once a time for family gatherings, one of the few times we in this country as a culture get together and now we have gradually seen that eroded by the midnight madness sales and the openings at 8:00, moving gradually back. this time and that's how low can you go sweepstakes it looks like kmart has become the new clear-cut winner by opening up at six in the morning and bragging that they will be open for 41 straight hours of shopping. gerri: 41 hours. forty-one hours. i have to say, they would not be doing if they did not think people would come in. gerri: right. >> absolutely. there motivating people to shop

online. but again, i guess they feel through whenever pressure that they have to be in it to win it. while other competitors are trying to get shoppers, they have to do something dramatic, and it certainly is dramatic, but it could have a backlash. thanksgiving occupies a special unleash in our society and culture. gerri: one of my friends tell me you're not getting me from out in front of the tv set. >> i'm monitor the sales to see what we can expect it does not seem to be as aggressive as it has been. i think that we are seeing that

there are some aggressive sales. major department store chains are offering limited time sales of 25 to 40 percent off, some as %-caught up in the experience of going out on black friday and what that means, and that the expectations are quite high. for example, there are always those, we talk about the midnight madness, the idea that you can get a sale, a tv set for 200 bucks. remember, they are limited time offers. last year i was looking at what walmart did. i believe they handed out tickets a couple of hours before this stores actually opened. gerri: i have to tell you, retailers are fighting the idea that sales will be lower. and so the brick and mortar, you are seeing people come out with a time savings. matching online retailers. there is a fundamental shift in strategy.

>> you are absolutely right because we saw that best by which never had a great reputation they matched online competitive prices including amazon. toys r us is doing that, but they are not matching black friday prices. it is one thing they made clear. again, if you don't shop on black friday, chances are you both did a good deal. gerri: thank you for being on the show. i will see you later, maybe at the mall, but not on thursday, my friend. >> may need it. gerri: now we want to know what you think. our retailers waging a war on thanksgiving? vote on the right hand side of the screen and i will share the results of the end of the show. coming up, all next week we are bringing you a user's guide to shopping with informational and getting the best deals this holiday season and the revenge of the brick and mortar stores. coming up, the countdown to the

twitter ipo is on. more criticism of apple after their cheap farm was anything but. now reports that is being marked up 82%. thank you for that. appreciate that. wish i did not have to say it. ♪ so ally bank has a raise your rate cd that wothat's coect.n a rate. cause i'm really nervous about getting trapped. why's that? uh, mark? get help! i have my reons. look, you don't have to feel trapped with our raise your rate cd. our rate this cd goes up, yours can too. oh that sounds nice. don't feel trapped with the ally raise your rate cd. ally bank. your money needs an ally.

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here with the details, thank you for coming in. i just want to say from the get go because we are on a business that work here. i am happy for companies to make profits. make profits, but i don't want to be the source of absolutely every drop of money you make. he drill down on what apple is doing. let's go over some of thesee3 numbers. the markups are astonishing. >> apple has found a way to make this for slightly less than the predecessor, sharing the cost. charging the same amount, so the margin, making an 82% margin. gerri: take a look. sixteen gigabytes with 128. checking out. to build $274, retail price 500, a total profit 2205. people like apple because it is the expensive player and i'm market.

>> the higher price, the higher the appeal. it is not a luxury, but it is near. it is like a bmw. gerri: the bmw of internet -- >> of phones or devices, mobile devices. it costs more. people line up outside the store to get them which is the other thing. you say the price is fair. people are lining and to buy these things. gerri: there is demand, and i am a threepeat buyer. it my ipad was refurbished..3 i bought it at a discount because i am just that she. [laughter] >> i by refurbished, to. gerri: there you have it. people who enjoy the products but don't want to pay the price. i want to know -- show a marked up. it costs apple and dollar and $0.40. they sell it at retail for $40. that is just ridiculous. >> successors are read a giddy

because they get you hooked into the ecosystem. you need all of these other little things to go with the products. there are marked up like that. gerri: can they keep this up? it has been a big strategy and push. the discount found into china. they have tried to have two different product lines. will that work? >> here is the thing. the market share has collapsed. his bones and tablets, plummeting. what is taking over the world, and dried with cells on a variety of tones, but a lot of them are low-cost that has 80% market share. and the margins, as high as they seem right now, one year ago were much higher. 49 percent gross margins, now down to 36, 37, which is still amazing. gerri: what are you saying?

stop your beating. >> no. the thing is come apple is clawing back because what wall street is upset about is the gross margins coming down. that is why the stock cannot get its life back. but they need is a big, new tv that will sell for $5,000 in costa met thousand to make. that is what they need. gerri: thank you for coming on. i am all school. i will stick with apple for a while. when we come back, another state raises the minimum wage. will this be a normal? tomorrow is a big day for the twitter ipo. well you be able to get your hands on shares? should you even tried? ♪ we went out and asked people a simple question: how old is the oldest person you'venown? weave people a sticker and had them show us. we learned a lot of us have known someone

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gerri: breaking news tonight. they're floating 70 million shares. that is the big question today. what number will they come and that. expected to hit the public market tomorrow. investors expected to pay $26 per share. should you try to gain? lots of pressure for their share prices to go higher. buy or sell? by or stay on the sidelines? >> i am saying on the sideline. it fell flat on its face. twitter started around $18.

and demand for it has not gone up to 26. it will depend on the first few days. then i will take a look. anyone else is just a pure guessing game. if it opens at 30 and you can buy a debt toadeater 32, too tough to tell. gerri: if you own art inside the family to on the work there it's just a disaster waiting to happen. am i right. gerri: if you're going to commit dollars crappy ipos came out, doubled, and kept going higher

it is going to depend on where it opens tomorrow. i have no clue at this point in time. there is enough demand that i do not think it will be a facebook begin. gerri: the question is will it be amazon? and just because you know the company, you feel twitter. i love it. that does not mean that you necessarily know how the shares will trade. less talk about fundamentals. that total revenue is on fire. 2010, 20 million canal 422. you cannot argue with the revenue line. what do you say? >> they are losing money. look, in bull markets you can lose money and get away with it. i have the line that in bear markets anyone loses money no matter what you sell, no matter what you do to my my study of bear markets, hating that loses money will be cut in half, if not

more. that will include twitter. i think the market will be okay, but i would just keep in mind, a ton of ipos, a town of secondaries, that type of activity happens close to the top. i am giving notice to a lot of people right now. gerri: i want to tell you, the prospectus which is the fine print, the real professional sports through it, that is the document that twitter has to put out. of course they have a litany of potential problems for the company. what is one? we may never ever, ever turn a profit. that is actually one of the issues for this company, and it is a big question. what is your view about long-term prospects? is this a long-term play or is this just another tech company that is here today and gone tomorrow? >> the problem is one fold as far as i am concerned.

they should have gone public a year ago. the question is, are they more mature right now? must tell you, i am looking and readings where it has slowed down. there is no down. sales have been gargantuan. whether they can leverage that into earnings i am not sure. i am apt to be more careful, but i am seeing plenty of companies right now coming out with $5 billion market caps with 100 million in sales and losing money. that will not last forever, but in this type of market you can make money. gerri: if you are careful and, of course, love the service. not so sure. what about the stock? >> one more thing just to let you know, do not take your eye off of the ipos. i can promise you in the next five to ten years you will see five, ten, maybe even 20-fold moves because they are all great companies with great

technologies. rihanna sure who they are, but we will try and find them as we move forward. gerri: all right. come back and tell us about them. we would love to know. thanks to your comments on twitter and e-mails, i know that for many of you cash is king. credit cards mean more dead, but amazing things have been accomplished in this world using credit cards. paying for dream vacations. credit-card rewards can pay for your next vacation. many pay for that child's college tuition on a credit card in order to rack up points. that is probably not the best strategy. number four, saving a life. in 2011 soldiers sent a man who had been stabbed a physical credit card to help address the london apply pressure. that is created. number three, create a legendary video game. two brothers maxed out their credit cards to a finance their

new game guitar hero. you remember the blair witch project, financed by credit cards, $60,000. and the number one in greatest thing ever democratic cards, the world's biggest internet company, global. they spend $15,000 on three credit cards and are now millionaires. more than one-third of small businesses use credit cards as they're main source of funding. still to come, my "2 cents more," and another example of the government interfering in business as new jersey raises the minimum wage. we will debate this issue. it

♪ gerri: residents of the garden state voting to hike the state's hourly minimum wage. but is that jersey state about to strike a national town? here to weigh and, former chief economist at the u.s. department of labor. senior fellow. i will start with you. the problem with this is it did not go far enough. how high and why? >> it is a good start, and i think many people are grateful for that. 51 percent of new jersey 82 voted for the law are grateful. i think the law could have raised it to at least $10 anhoue minimum wage is $10 per hour, and their economy is doing

better than new jersey. gerri: let's give diana in year. what do you say? >> much too little. betty not see how anyone can manage content dollars an hour. we should make it $20 an hour. it is not if anyone has less. we should make it 24. why don't we? we know that some people love it cut out of the job. in the same way by raising in the dollar there are some low-skill workers that will be shut out of the labour market. gerri: what do you say? that is the argument. you will lose a lot of minimum-wage jobs. what do you say? don't we need jobs? i'm not sure i agree with you, my friends. not appealing.

>> what do we really know. we know that when you raise the minimum wage and people make a fair and honest wage they therefore go and by necessity, people on the lower income bracket spend this money in there is a multiplier effect where it benefits all of our jobs. >> why not make it $24 per hour? >> i'm being serious. >> it is funny that you should mention. people have done a study. if workers were paid according to their productivity, according similarly to the rise, the minimum wage would be actually on the order of $20. gerri: the question, look, if you get people who are working in minimum wage jumps of raise they will spend the money and put it right back in the

economy. that is good for gdp. what do you say? >> you can only give them more money to spend. you cannot raise the minimum wage. basically hire a different group of workers. but they get the money and put it back into the economies. but if you raise the minimum wage when the unemployment rate for those low-skilled workers won't allow. right now the unemployment is about 24%. african-american teens, about 35%. these are the people who gets squeezed out. fewer than 3 percent of working americans make minimum wage. that is why you cannot find -- >> the lower wage worker is not a teen. [inaudible conversations] >> two-thirds of low-wage workers in this country are women, and many are main breadwinners of supporting families. >> has not true. >> it is true. >> it is not true.

[inaudible conversations] gerri: it needs to be a living wage. does it? >> i would say, no, it does not. if you look at income, household income, households with one minimum-wage worker, average income is 53,000 per year. these are not people who are making money to support their families, not the main breadwinner for their families. they are an add-on worker, and it is unfair to say it people -- social security, unemployment insurance, workers' comp. under $9 an hour. >> looking at the bigger economy, what kind of economy do we want as americans moving toward? in a robust middle-class whereby we all benefit or do we want an economy where we raced to the bottom toward a low-wage that an arbitrary rage of 725. it is different.

i'm not sure why it is a low arbitrary. >> anyone can get a job. we won an economy where people can enter. gerri: we have to leave it there. good debate. @%ank you for coming on. tough topic. we will be right back with my "2 cents more" and the answer to our question of the day. our retail is waging a war on thanksgiving? ♪ if you've got copd like me, hey breathing's hard. know the feeling? copd includes emphysa. and chronic bronchitis. spiriva is a once-daily inhaled copd maintenance treatment that helps open my obstructed airways r a full 24 hours. spiriva helps me breathe easier. spiriva handihaler tiotropium bromide inhalation powder does not replace fast-ting inhalers for sudden symptoms. tell your ctor if you have kidney problems, glaucoma, trouble urinating, or an enlarged prostate. these may worsen with spiriva. discuss all medicines you take, even eye dro.

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>> as we reported just minutes ago, twitter's ipo will be $26 per share tomorrow. it is now official because twitter just we did it. the ipo will raise around $2 billion it will be the biggest u.s. technology ipo since facebook last year. it will begin trading tomorrow under the ticker symbol twtr.

and kmart and wal-mart will be open prior to thanksgiving. i we feel that peggy says that i wouldn't put it that way, but totally disagree that the people have to work that day. everyone should be allowed to fit in turn spend time with friends and family. >> i will not support these stories at all. families need more time together. 69% on gerri willis said yes, 31% said no to our on my question of the day. logon for question every weekday. and we have a new question for you. if the car that drives for you becomes the norm, does that mean we no longer have to pay car insurance because it wouldn't be human error anymore? and dave from alaska says he hopes of the problem with

obamacare will be the dagger in his heart. so does that sometimes feel like you against the tax man cometh you against just about anything? it's it ... "the willis report" to be on your side. we do that everyday. filtering headlines and "the willis report" gives you a voice and puts you in charge. that's what we were thinking about today covering the unintended consequences of obamacare. the downside of online shopping and what you may not know about the minimum wage on an escalator. what are you concerned about? what keeps you up at night? stay in touch on facebook and check out the website. we can make it together. that is my "two cents more". coming up on friday, it's easy to throw your hands up in the

air and call obamacare the failure that it is, but since it is the law of the land, we will try to offer real solutions that you can use. and that his efforts might "willis report", thank you for joining us and have a great night, we will see tomorrow. single micro- ♪ lou: some panic in a little frustration setting in for senate democrats who faae reelection next year. the failed rollout of obamacare is to blame. all but one of those democrats running for reelection at the white house today to make certain that president obama gets the message. i am lou dobbs. ♪ ♪ lou: good evening, everyone. obamacare is a failure to this point. the white house has repeatedly lied about how it would affect the american public in the president's own party is now in something of a panic. fifteen of the 16