>> go to basspro.com for more of this. sound the ala. because americans are fired up. not just over broken obama care promises, but over obama care forcing people to buy coverage they don't need, like maternity care. well, man up, says a top democrat in the senate. >> somebody said, well, gee, now i've got -- i have to take this policy that covers maternity care. but my wife and i aren't having any more children. and i got to thinking about that. i thought, well, you know what? maybe because my wife and i don't have any more children, and they're grown up, maybe i shouldn't have to pay property taxes to pay for my local schools. we're better than that in this country.

're talking about being a part of our siety. same way with health care. it is a value system. >>o what do you think? is he right? buying medical care y don't need is part of america's value system? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is "bulls and bears." d here they are, the bulls and bears this week. gary b. smith, tracy byrnes, jonas max ferris, john layfield, and david mercer. john, paying for maternity care or other coverage you don't need is all part of america's value system? >> not part of the america i understand it's part of a socialist system. if that'show you want to view health care, that it's a right, that you d don't have to pay fo it. we pay taxes to pay for defense. it's not fair to compare it to health care where people have the ability to pay for what they use. how about we take the 65% homeownership right now and have them pay a double mortgage or

extra mortgage to pay for the 35% who don't have homes? where does this end, and where do it -- somewhere, we realize health care is not necessarily a specific right. >> well, the problem is, david, that you are paying for things you may not necessarilneed, and it's costing more too. is that part the value system? >> well, i belie that the whole objective of the affordable care act is to lowe costs overall to the onomy and to individuals. but secondly, with regard to the obama care and what it affords in terms of benefits, look, insurance itself, none of us may need -- a t of us may not need to hav a payout on our insurance, but we still pay for it and we may never e . but the time may come when a catastrophic event occurs, an accident occurs, or a diagnosis mes where that needs to be

covered under obama care or the affordable care act. and so whether you want it or you think you'll need it or whatever, at least the american people know that everybody is getting covered and has access to universal health re. and that is the overall goal of health care. >> david, i'm pretty sure john layfield doesn't need maternity care. just going with that. >> nor do i need maternity care. but i don't mind paying for it as part of my overa insurance premium. >> but the analysis to property tas is wrong. you ge to vote. as a matter of fact, i just went to the voting booth this weekend d voted on stuff happening in my area. and i get to move if i don't want to pay taxxes. i can move to florida or texas where kroi don't have to deal w this stuff. i think 's wng to pull an analogy like this. you can't even compare apples to oranges here. >> but, tracy, you can pay the fine and not get insurance if you don't like it. and then -- >> that's not the --

>> gary b., you go to florida o texas, youave property taxes. but you can move to a different school district ere they may have higher or lower taxes. theris some choice there. is there choice with obama care? >> well, not as iee it, although i can now tell -- i can see the left's new spin, which davidrevealed, where you can opt out of it. that's a new one. i'll give him that. i guess i have not thought that i can just say, hey, i'm not going to -- >> that's not an out. >> but i had not heard that from your side, so i guess th's part of it. but on the other end, i suppo if a vast majority of people opt out of it, the whole thing crumbles then anyway because there's not going to be enough money paying in. but that's besides the poi. on the property tax issue, you're right, brenda. you have to pay it virtually everywhere, unless you live in an apartment or something like that. but the other -- the flip side of the property tax is, in theory, you get back value.

i live in a high property tax area. the public schools are good. but the property itself should be worth more than in an area where the property taxes are a little bit lower. as far as, you know, david mentioned, well, you're paying in and you might not need this stuff in the insurance, yes, but with regular insurance that you purchase on the private market u can opt what thin to get. you can choose a super high deductible if you want. this is a kind of one size fits all. it's forced on everyone down a path which according to all the polls most people don't really like. >> jonas, what do you think? is this part of the american value system to pay for these things that we may not necessarily need? >> unfortunately, i actually think tom harken put it better than oma put it. the rationale for it. first ofall, we coul have voted out of it. you could have voted for romney and the senate and it would have beenurned around. sohe majority voted for extending and having this ridiculous rule. so we can't complain. that is america.

my up to just voted for a new stadium in the town that i have to pay for. i don't have kids, and i do not care about the sports in the community. but i overpaid for the house because the property values were inflated because of the great hool in the town. unfortunately, that's america. you have to pay to pay for other people who can't afford. >> wait a minute. john -- >> let me finish. most americans can't afford school. 1/3 of americans can't afford school. it would be like $20,000 a kid. so everybody has a house. and we disproportionately charge the bigger homeowners, not the people with most kids, to pay for your kid to go to school becausyou can't afford private school. i don't like it, but that's how it works. >> john, basically, you can move if you don't want to pay for that stadium. but with obama care, there is no choice. we are increasingly seng there is no choice. >> no. there is no option. look, we also pay taxes and that pays for the salaries of 535

coressmen and that benefits absolutely nobody in america. so there is a precedent for this. look, we are being forced to pay this. and where does this end? where es it end that we're going to beepaying this thing? the reason i'm going to have to pay for maternity coverage whether i opt out or not, it's going to be baked in somewhere, because you're covering people through subsidies who cannot afford the health care insurance. that's an economicargument. but where does that end? doest end in disability, long-term unemployme insurance? at what point do we ask people to pay their own way when they are able? and that is a basic difference and ideolog he way that most people that believe infree markets see america as socialists see america. >> but i think that's the thin there's no escape, right? i could go and research property taxes in florida and go live down there if it bothers me so much that i pay exorbitant amounts in new jersey, and sometimes i feel like i get nothing out of it. but i choose to live here.

i can't choose out of oba care, right? i mean, i have no choice. and i think that's theroblem that everybody has. >> david -- >> you have different plans through obama care and through the exchanges, which you should research to get one that covers what your needs are. >> really, david? >> we could take the whole half-hour on that. gary b., take it away. >> brenda, i could almost aee with senator harken if the greater good value system was going to benefit everyone. but from what i am seeing right now, at the end of obama care, we'll actually have less people insured and overall we'll be paying higher premiums. so i'm not understanding -- ok. we got this forced market. if everyone was insured and premiums came down, i would say, ok, yeah, it worked out. it doesn't look like we're heading down thapath. we'll be in worse shape than we are, which makes it doubly

annoying. >>s that that has to be the last word. the health care law enforcers back under fire. why the irs is giving $4 billin to. it could give taxpayers a stroke. spgebob gets the ax. but it's what he does next that could create a sea change. >> you s, i've beenoing some calculating and crunching the old numbers. and it turns out that i'll save a whole nickel if i cut your salary completely. you're canned. here's your pink slip. i'm giving you the ax. you're fired! as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires.

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keep it right here on the fax news channel. s.o.s. irs. this time, it's for reportedly doling out $4 billion in tax refunds, to, get this, i.d. thieves, including 655 refunds to a single address in lithuania. what they could ve bought, huh? and gary b., this is who's going to be enforng the health care law. >> it's sad, isn't it? i don't want to pick on the irs for the reasons jonas has highlighted. [ laughter ] >> i love the irs. they are good people there. but the problem is with any government agency, ovseeing a big part of the administration of 20 of the economy, there's

going to beways to fraud. you go down the list -- whether it's medicare social security, medicaid, food stamps. anything -- even if hsswas running this or the department of education, there would be fraud, waste, inefficiency. unfortunately, that's what you get with a large government where the only goal is to build your department. the irshouldn't be doing this. it should be the private sector agailike we've said for, i guess, years now, that shoul be only involved in health care because they are the only ones accountable to a bottom line. >> ok. gary b., you're safe for another year, i think. but john, howo you ta this? they are going to be enforcing the health care law which is already as we're discovering pretty much a mess. what do you think of the irs getting in there? >> i should have listened to my frie, audited right now,

so i love the irs. they are underfunded and understaffed. it is tough for them to prosecute and catch guys who are hiding and not paying their taxes. much less to dsomething with obama care. you have to start almost coletely over to build a whole new infrastructure, so might as will do what gary b. is saying and hire a private company to do it. the government does not do things very well. >> tra, you're a great accountant. >> but on behalf of the accountants of the world, don't shoothe messenger here. you get the congressional leaders that make up these rules. they don't know what they are doing. and then they se them to the irs and say, here, enforce them. and as gary said, they are on a shoestring budget. four people are working there at this point, they are so short staffed. and they have all of this extra stuff to do. it is so unfair, and ripe for fraud. no one isin the shop right now watching it. >> david, what do you think of that? >> i think it's never good news

when you have people trying to defraud the system. and that's something they'll have to combat. but luckily and fortutely, they have caught this. it's been flagged. and theyre going to put measures in to prevent it from happening in the future. and already this year, as john alluded to, they have already caught about $12 billion in fraudulent claims that they will not have go out. and so we can only hope that that continues, and that they start reducing the incide of it. but it's something that also the ivate sector has to endure and combat andpends billions of dollars trying to do so as well. >> ok. but jonas, let's get jonas in here, they have a really big job, in additi to what they're already doing. >> first of all, let's say the good -- the other panel should be saying good things about the irs before the october 15 deadline like i did, and they woul't be facing all of this. >> smart boy. >> first of all, look, the s is not the perfect agcy to implementhis. this is a ridiculous day of

doing the health care thing. however, of all the government agencies, i give the irs the most credit. as an example. if you look at the amount of monethat they handle there, the trillions of income, that's a very low fraud rate. and just rsonally my amateur ca -- my amex card was frauded, and they had to pay that. that's real money of fraud to those companies. and that's high i.t. at those mpanies. i bet they have higheross rates to fraud than the irs. and that's the private sector. and healthcare.gov isn't going public. they won't get rich off the ipo like twitter this week. no one who is really good wants to work there on that. >> there is a corporate america. you don't have that. and identity theft has actually incrsed year over year. 1.6 million peopl sufferedt from thisax filing season

faces 1.2 million last year. i think it's getting worse. >> they had more losses in 2010 if i'm not mistaken. >> they did. >> last word. thanks, guys. so no one's safe from the pink sli not even e lovable sponge living in a pineapple under the sea. why this upcoming episode of "spongebob square nts" is fuelling debate among those living above the sea. ♪ it's as simple as this. at bny mellon, our biness is invtments. managing them, moving them, makinghem work. we oversee 20% of the world's finaial asts.

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you're fired! >> you're fired! >> i'm take it to go >> unemployment! >> that's part of monday's trailer for the show. his star fish friend, patrick, is said to say, don't worry, collecting unemployment is a great gig. but spongebob insists on hunting for a new job instead. tracy, you say thiss exactly what our kidseed to say today? >> i'm the first to tell you i'm not a spongob fan. >> what's wrong with you? >> i think he's so fresh. but i love that even with his pink slip, aka dress, that was a cute moment, he says, i've got to get a job. i can't live like this. this is exactly what the kids need to hear. this notion tha they are getting it from spgebob, who cares where they are getting it from? everything else they are hearing is so bad and convincing them

they should sit on the couch and collect the government dole. >> recession ts. bikini bottoms. fox ns alert. which is the better re model? how can you sa patrick when he is just sitting back there taking in all the vernment dole? >> well, i believe that spongebob is a protagonist is opposing and representing t values that we as americans all like to think of in terms of hard work and making a good living and providing for our families. i think his friend, i think that's a ltle exaggerated caricature when, you know, you think of a the people that are trying to find work, that may be unemployed, and may be on support with regard to the health care -- excuse me, the insurance that they paid into to cover them when they are unemployed. so i think that spongebob is fine in that represention.

but i have a little bit of misgiving about his friend there. >> this isn't shakespeare. it's a cartoon. but really, spongebob or patrick? who is the role model you want your kids to be watching? >> well, obviously, i'd like them to be watchin spongebob. but here's the problem, brenda. i think most of us are inherently lazy, and we take the path of least resistance. and when the path of least resistance is lined with gold, as the government has done, my gosh, sinci've been growing , it's becoming worse and worse with generous food stamps and healthy unemployment benefits, things like that, it's very easy to be the nonspongebob and to sit back and say, you know what? i'm not going to rk. brenda, when you and i were growing up, we didn't have those options. you d to go out and get a job because there wasn't this healthy food stamp program and things like that. so it's the government's problem. >> john, what do you say? whh one? >> are we really going to

characterize americans as spongebob and nonspongebob? i only care what winnie the pooh has to say, by the way. m with david. most americans are like spongebob. i can't believe i just said that. >> yes, you did. and you said it on tape. >> that's right. they want to work. they don't want to get a handout. >> about 15 seconds to tell us whatou think about this, if you've ever seen spongebob. i don't know. >> well, it's in international waters so labor laws don't apply. but somebody has to stand up for the patrick of the world. these programs don'tdisince i n disincentivize people. >> we'll talk to you later. thanks, guys. and anks to david for joining us. >> pleasure. pushing the minimum to the max, gaining steam. the white house now baing hiking the minimum wage to $10 an hour. but could that have jobs taking a hike?

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predictions. gary b.? >> brenda, rget all the twitter stuff. buy the carer. buy comcast, up 30% in a year. >> john? >> groupon hasmobile figured out. up 20% in one year. >> it's a win for montreal. bank of montreal up 15%n a

year. >> this $10 minimum wage choice is a job killer. stay away from it. >> forget about minimum. you know who's really, really going to take it to the come on. "cavuto on business." neil, take it away. fromaking off without a hitch to launching like a, well, son of a glitch -- son of a glitch. anyway, hi. good to hav you. i'm neil cavuto. and leave it to a service all about tweets to me washington look like a bunch of twits. twitter stoc taking flht this week. you might have heard a thing or two about it. very little turbulence. all that preparation paying off on the big day. very different from washington's prep work for health care law's big day, which we haven't recovered from in all of these days. call it the difference between an ipo and an ip-no. ben stein,