but it's a beautiful place to be. e.e.m., emerging markets. >> sorry. cost of freedom continues right now here on fox. first the promise. >> if you like your healthcare plan, you will be able to keep your healthcare plan. period. >> then the big "if." >> we said you could keep it if it hasn't changed since the laws passed. >> and now the admission -- >> you said after the law was implemented or signed you like a plan, you can choose it. do you not believe, sir, the miles per hour people deserve a deeper, more transparent accountable from you why you said that over and over? >> there is no doubt that the way i put that forward unequivocally ended up not being accurate. >> so the president admits he

botched it and now the people have spoken. poll after poll, the majority say he is not trustworthy. does that mean thetic if he just put forward for people losing their plans can't be trusted either? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." steve forbes, rich karlgaard, sabrina schaefer, rick unger, steve. can we trust these folks? >> no. trying to reinstate the program now is a nightmare. it will not be more a few months. it will be several years in the future. this is a fix to get through the next election. it will be a big mess and it will get bigger. this is collapsing on its own. >> rick, how do you trust people who have broken so many promises? >> not a good week to be a defender of the house, is it? >> the reality is whether you can trust them or not, that is not the issue as the

perception. right now, americans are not trusting the administration. in politics, however, things change. something will happen next. if they do the right thing and they handle it well, they will dig out of it. if they don't, he has a big problem. face it. >> he does. emac, specifically one promise that he made, when apparently he had information that contradicted that promis july 2010, a report was out that 4 to 67% of individual policies would be canceled. i.r.s. report, obamacare report he had three-and-a-half years ago. since when he made promises that denied that report. >> that is right. that report went from also i.r.s., h.s., treasury department and labor, so the administration knew it. now they are treating like the rounding error. they are saying we were looking at the 90% of the

people who get help. but that's also a fallacy. the prices are going to up, too. people lose doctors by the score. millions of people coming home for holidays see their insurance canceled and losing their doctors. credibility is a fragile commodity for any president and he shot it out the door. what is happening now, people are not listening to him and they don't trust him. >> rich, to emac's point, there are people losing their doctors and losing their insurance. we want to put a face on it. stuart varney, at the fox business network, had on a woman who lost her insuran policy she was happy with it. let's play sound from that and get your reaction. >> tremendous amount of trust with that insurance company. i know the claims people by name. they have never denied my treatment. now i'll go to an unknown, insurance company i haven't dealt with, people i don't know and people i don't have confidence in. with cancer you have to headache decisions incredibly

fast because your life depends upon it. >> rich, we are always hearing the administration lambasting insurance companies. this is a woman who had stage four cancer. she was very happy with the insurance policy and she lost it because of obamacare. the more you see the face of people who suffered because of this, the more i think there is no fix at all. >> i don't think there is any fix at all. but now between now and the 2014 election the administration will wage a fierce war against the insurance firms and try to blame it on them. president obama did not do that in the press conference on thursday. but you will see this in full force behind the scenes. we'll see how it plays out. it's fundamentally broken, it cannot be fixed. we have to start over. >> john, in order to have somebody fix something, you have to trust them. even if it's simple like a broken car, you have to trust the people working on it. what about the level of trust with the administration? >> it's gone. there is no way the electorate

is going to allow a president and party who wrote such an incompetent law to essentially get up to the plate and do this once again. i think there is reason to be optimistic here. if you support limited government, a lot of us do, you must rejoice that president obama was re-elected. his administration is the single best advertisement about the horrors of big government in a long time. it will have legs going in the future. i am loving this. >> on the other hand there are republicans who say we can work with the president to fix this. is that possible? >> i don't think it's possible. one of the best things that can happen from the deback is a seismic shift in the way that people conceive of government and insurance. and the role the government should play in the healthcare market. let's be honest, there is a terrible misconception throughout we actually had a market in place in healthcare before obamacare took effect. the fact is that the bottoms has been increasingingly involved in a healthcare

market for 4 years. this is -- 40 years. this is what we got. now we try to add on more government which meant all the problems double town and got worse. i think that john is right. this is a time to pull back. americans see that. >> rick, you are admitting mistakes of the obamacare though you have been fully supportive of it up until now. is there any fix, is there any fix, since you're supportive it that you think would work. what is it? >> i remain supportive to the program but i'm not supportive of how it's rolled out. it has been badly batched. we worry about that. if they get things working to website by the end of the month as they promisehis could still end up turning out -- >> specifically, what fix would you recommend? >> i think fixing the website plays a big part. >> the one number that a lot of us forgotten, though enrolln't were low. over 1 million people register and signed up. they haven't bought the policy

yet. >> three years of building the website. they are worried about the security lapses. >> if you listen to any hearing. the hospital catastrophic insurance. h.s.asp the cash movement paying doctors directly. you the true interstate competition insurancement >> what about the complaint about republicans they have no way to fix this? >> if you got rid of obamacare entirely, what is the republican plan? >> part of the caus in the house has an act out there. alternative, including that elizabeth referred to. equalize tax treatment and fundamental reforms that will get patient control back again. get effective safety nets

through funds that will take care of people who have preexisting conditions. why can't we do it with healthcare? >> you were nodding as steve was speaking. saying this is an opportunity. do you think the message got out clearly enough to propose somethg specific that is better than we now have? >> tremendous opportunity for republicans. there is going to be a part of the g.o.p. that wants to sit back to watch the whole thing implode but that would be a foolish waste of political capital and a waste of opportunity for the american people. the fact is there are discreet things we can choose to reform. tax code and the insurance regulatory market. i think that this is a chance to show leadership and move forward with the things. this is going to fall by the wayside of its own weight. move forward with something positive. >> rich, one thing, you are in silicon valley. there is one point, we had a billion dollar are out of this software plan for the internet

that failed. we had thousands of workers, took 3-1/2 years. i interviewed three guys in silicon valley, three 20-year-old programmers who came out with a system that did part of what obamacare was supposed to do on the web, better than what they have done. they have had two or three weeks to run that out. they spent a couple of hundred bucks on it. >> yeah, the irony, in history books we have written about this, how president obama who ran the most technologically sophisticated presidential campaign in 2008 and 2012 managed to botch this on such an epic scale. but it does show you the infrastructureal problems doing it at bureaucratic level. >> the debate with hillary clinton he did say he attacked insurance mandates that nobody should be foed to buy insurance. >> when you see women who lost their insurance or people who lost their insurance like the woman we showed earlier you really understand how much it needs to be fixed or changed.

still ahead, this healthcare mess could end up saving miles per miles per americans money. that's flipside on "cashin' in." up next here, more retailers will be open on turkey days. unions are telling them to stuff it. planning protest. justified or just fowl? at od, whatever business you're in, that's the business we're in with premium service like one othe best on-time delivery records and a low claims ratio, we do whatever it takes to make your business our business.

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♪ ♪ >> all i want for christmas is thanksgiving day off! union-backed groups urging retailers to stay at home as more stores plan to open on thanksgiving. flipside, john says they should be thanking these retailers. why? >> it's pretty simple. i love my days off, but if someone e offers me triple my salary to work on christmas and thanksgiving i may take them up on it. in this case, the retailers have customers they wanto please. they have employers, employees who are willing to help them please the customers for a higher wage. everyone wins here. i think the unions are revealing how divorced from reality they are in trying to make noise about it. >> so rich, everyone wins from this? >> look, i'm not generally a supporter of unions and sure as heck think public unions should be illegal. this is what unions are for. why shouldn't they bargain on behalf of the workers?

if they can get four times the prevailing salary on thig or christmas why not test it? >> they are already getting two or three times. >> yeah. by law. anytime you ve overtime it's time-and-a-half, if you are an hourly worker. holidays is twice asmuch. a lot of single people in starbucks love the holidays because it means for money. it's voluntary. if they want to take the opportunity, do it. retailers in the business are there to please customers. in this economy needs more customers now. >> bill, steve used a keyword. voluntary. it's not like they are slave >> i think the union should scream and shout and stop. we don't want to work on thanksgiving. the unions are supposed to do that. some retailers never sleep like amazon. >> they shouldn't give up.

give up the market share to amazon? >> it worth it or not? >> what do you mean >> is it worth it to come in on thanksgiving day? should we be happy it's happening? >> yes, it will help the bottom line. the wal-mart officials say they pay extra to workers coming in. the workers voluntarily apply. they are free to leave. they are paid more than fast food workers with benefits they get $15 to $18 an hour. >> they are free to leave. >> or negotiate for a higher wage. that's how the free markets work. i could go ask steve for a raise. he will tell me to go to the

office. this is how the free markets work. if they are not hostile, what is wrong with trying to get a better wage? >> steve, good scottsman so rather than working at three times the salary he is giving you the day off. right? >> we are indeed. if mike wants a raise i'll give him a copy of one of my books. >> who could complain with that. thank you, gang. >> coming up, it's supposed to help save the environment. but did we just find out another green energy plan is backfires on us? the ocean gets warmer. the peruvian anchovy harvest suffers.

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after billions of dollars of subsidiaries, new environment saying biofile ethanol is doing more harm than doing good. to the tainted water supply from the extra fertilizer to grow up. you say it's a case of a green agenda backfiring? >> yes. if you don't rely on free people making free choices this is what you get. germany elec ris rate is three times our own. this is a political pay off. if you see green, see red, red in anger and red ink.

>> we did this segment just for you. j you did this just for me? i'm touched. i am. i am not a fan of ethanol. it's not new how it affects the food prices but there is no up-side to lump it in with renewable fuel. i understand you have problem with government subsidiaries for these things, different conversation. who can be against renewable fuels? it's just a good thing. >> i think mike is one and go ahead. >> for me this is personal. this is a large kickback to farmers, david, which is why steve will never when iowa. >> for me this is more personal. this is terrible for engines. us destroyed the snow blower and the lawn engine.

how am i supposed to do my lawn work? >> nothing against the farmers, usually the farmers getting the most support are the big corporate. not the small guy. >> big industrial farms. it takes 450 pounds of corn to make ethanol to fill up a single suv tank of gas. that is hardly efficient. this is high liquor roseive. it has to be transported wheel or rail not the pipeline. that is cost inefficient. >> is this proof that the green agenda and again, the republicans are partg] of it. the obama administration doubled or tripled it. it doesn't work. >> we agree that corn ethanol is a scam on all fronts. but most green energy project have one big flaw. the billion-dollar solar farm is economic disaster.

biodiesel if it caught on would destroy what is left of the rain forest. windmills are an eyesore. >> there are always unintended consequences. look at the fuel efficiency standard. ford made the cars lighter and less safe. so we're like great, green energy. >> steve, australia. a strange thing to bring in. they went from one government that supported the carbon fueled taxes and everything to help the environment. it didn't help. they threw the guy out. huge political change as a result. could it happen here? >> it will be part of it. i like australia. i have a son-in-law in australia. >> we all like australia. what is not to like about australia. >> he's a doctor and gives me free advice.

>> clean fuel and we have it. natural gas. no surprise that they're opposed to. >> what about that? shouldn't they support whole heartedly the natural gas as the answer here? >> it is an answer. i have to say i have more questions than answers. i want to know if i can get a solar powered motor will mike come cut my grass? >> does steve give his son autographed books? >> he is not going to cut your grass soon. that has to be the end. before you go out shopping this holiday season, stock up on the names that will help pay for the holiday gifts. the names are next.

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back with the informer's gift to pay for the hol day shopping. >> benefit from the free money that the federal reserve is giving the big banks. >> bill, what do you think? >> this is a crony capital. >> lincoln electric. >> the pipeline workers are in demand when we replace the president. >> you have i-share select dividend. >> this is a good one. >> buy a basket of goods. >> love the yield.

>> great stuff. that is it for "forbes on fox." have a great weekend. thank you for watching. keep it the number one business block continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." >> off the rails. the white house hitting a panic button to get the president signature ledge on track. now some saying that this train wreck is so bad it is derailing the government agenda. >> they are busted telling americans to commit fraud and sign up for obamacare. time to pull the plug? using sex and alcohol to sell obamacare to young americans. is this the message we should send the youth? cashing in, searching for truth starts now.