[woman]ask me about the lumbar button. [man]she's got her side...and i've got my side. [announcer] tempur-pedic.the most highly recommended bed in america. [woman]don't touch my side! neil: now we know. they knew, and now we gone something else, that i did their darnest to make sure we never knew, now we know as well, they might still be playing games to make sure we don't know what is to cooe. millions more young people who just are not signing up. we can do the math. but don't think for a minute the administration or those who love the law have not, they have, it has, and it is worried. a health care law spiralling out of control into an abyss.

despite what you hear, an official white house line allow this one year delay to do its thing for us to sort out this mess. here is the problem with delay, sometimes all they push back is the inevitable. tonight health care expert tell it unless they can get more people to sign up and fast, you might as well stick a syringe in this right now, david cutler is not saying that in so many words but when the man they call architect of obamacare said this could be in the beginning of a date spiral that tells you a little what you need to know. top ha harvard professor, top health care advisor joining me now. what did you fear? >> we need to avoid a situation where unhealthy people are in one pool, and healthy in another, that works parly for --

poorly for people, one goal of the healthcare reform, to make sure that everyone is in one group like they are with big employers, so when they go to shop there is no issue but what they will be eligible for that is the goal. what the web site problem is doing, making it hard to do it right away, we suspect, although nobody knows for sure that people who are signing up for the exchanges are those less healthy than average, and those who stay out are slightly healthier that pull its apartment if that continues that will be a bad sign. it is not guaranteed it will be, not even a likely outcome, but if it does happen it will be a bad thing to happen. neil: you say bad thing to happen, what do you mean? >> it creates a huge aim of problem for people if they can the no not be secure in their hl

coverage, no -- health coverage, they need to know they will be covered as a price they can afford. neil: you are saying, professor, that they are not convinced of that now, in particular young people are strong denom night denominator, that is math on which this seems to be based. that is not being addressed. we have problems. >> basic problem with web site not being ready, a lot of people who would want to go in were not able, if the web site is 80% ready by end of november you have a month for those people to get in, particular work out well. if they can't get in, you have trouble, if the web site does not work, if you cannot convince them. neil: how -- this disconcerted

feeling on the part of the youth, many, those who have popped up, examined it, currented numbers. -- crunched the numbers. >> they will do better nerc changes than outside. >> when this was on the planning stages. did you factor in particularly did your colleagues factor in we're going to have millions of people whatever their percentage for whom this will not work out. they will have to pay higher premium or have to be jettisoned to something else not what they have? >> it was known there would be

some people like that. president said as much in he apologized for people having been taken the wrong impression. neil: he never said that, the champions of this never said that, i suspect that had he or had they then people would have gone and maybe with eyes slightly wider open here, that is the surprise, that seems to be frustrating folks. >> yes, remember, there are a number of people who reports have shown are upset. the vast bulk of people, premiums go down, after the subsidies, which a lot of many young people will face. neil: but, 65,000 dollar crowd, and under for whom the subsidies are meant. they are young people there, and you hope they sign up. they are not in the number that would appear and that 65,000-dollar figure, say what

you will, seems to be too low a kit off point, everyone above it seems to be getting reamed, they are not happy. >> we know from the experience in massachusets, we know from the experience of large companies across the country, we know from other public programs, is that when services are accessible and affordable people sign up. while insurance is something people want. neil: no doubt but if you pay more, for those millions, the balloon is off the rose for th them. -- the bloom is off the rose for them. maybe after it calms down, that that will be the final why? this seems like a leap? >> we will know more by first few months of next year, but all numbers that people have crunched suggested that vast bulk of people will be much better off, it the web site been

working and people see what in a had access to, and look at details, they would not have been reluctant, they would have been rushing to do so. neil: you say vast majority will be better off, did you fam -- factor, that so many would second guess the wisdom of up ending a health care system for 90% of folks who had coverage were satisfied with, to address a 10% who did not, and majority of that 10%, does not seem to want in to this, do you ever look back at this professor, say, hey, we botched it. >> the roll out no question of botched. but look at degree of happiness, people are extremely unhappy with health care, businesses could not handle costin creases. neil: but now they are junctioning it, right? >> there is no question that the botched roll out of the affordable care act made people

concerned. >> even before the roll out, i am talking businesses, crunching numbers say, we're a substance starred plan by the president's new math we have to just, get rid of you or charge an arm and a leg more for you, that was before the roll out. >> right, looking at evidence on say part-time workers, or anything like that there no evidence that was happening, other than very few scattered examples. neil: bottom line, you are confident? this is all going to work out? >> if they can figure out how to get the thing to work. then yes, i am comfortable it will work out this is a big black eye but not a fatal blow. neil: we shall see, thank you very much. president is trying to apply a tourniquet on this thing, urging insurance companies to stop dropping folks. but can he do that the companies are only crunching numbers, on this law and new demands of the law, if they can't swing it they

tell folks they used to cover, you are off it. latest hire, that president -- latest, fear that president marco rubio, saying that is not happening, and a bill to make sure it never gets to happening with me now, senator john hogan, you are like mighted with rubio, you do not' a bailout for insurance companies, but that is in the law as i understand it. if push comes to shove, they are up against the wall, they are bailed out? >> that is a concern, we're finding out what in the law, there is a provision that hhs can provide subsidies to insurance companies, if they decide they need on offer the plans, they don't have from come and consult congress to do it. that is a provision we found out about now. neil: did you know that provision existed before.

>> no, and i was not here when obamacare was passed. but 1100 plus pages we're still finding out what is in this, this is a real concern it goes to you know cost, and increasing deficit, there is no way to pay for it, so, with no congressional oversight, this is something we need to address. >> you know what worries me that they had a backstop plan in granting this, that if it hits the fan, insurance companies are on the brink, much like banks and financial meltdown, we'll bail them out, whatever we can to keep the system as we know. the insurance companies, then, appear to have been in a no-lose situation, if critics are right, and they can gouge you they were protected by the law that emboldened them. >> taxpayers want to make sure there is not another bailout, they want transparency in pricing, right now administration is really scrambling. we need to make sure we know what they are doing in the

exchanges, that there transparency, and congress is a part of yo you know how this is implemented. neil: okay, senator. let's say you don't rescue them, and they are responsible for a good chunk of this. they go -- you are dammed if you do, dammed if you don't. >> this is why, obamacare is not the right approach, we really don't believe it is going to work. that is why it needs to be repealed, and replaced, the temporary tweaks create more problems. we need a market base approach focused on choice, and open transparent process. neil: senator thank you very much. >> thank you. neil: all right so not barack obama's lincoln moment. but to skip out on as a ceremony commemorating lincoln's most famous moment? on this gettysburg anniversary,

lou lehrman, speechless.

>> 4 score and 7 years ago, our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation. conceived in liberty. and dedicated -- >> today 150 anniversary of gettysburg address. president obama skipping the ceremony, lou lehrman said that mr. obama could learn a lot from mr. lincoln. this is a pretty big even, this was an address that really you provided means by which we could have a president obama. >> a very disappointing outcome. everyn is a legitty of mr. lincoln, and gettysburg address, everyone has a special legacy. president obama has been wrapping himself in the lincoln flag sinces day he decided to run for republican office.

so, i regarded it as a offense to those brave men, tens of thousands who gave their lives at gettysburg, 720,000 men in blue and gray, that the emancipation. neil: how long was the speech? >> i would say 271 words,. neil: that is this president's inproductry remarks, i know that was brief. looks back in history, the tapes, the kennedy press conference, average fourth

questions -- i think today it like you know 8 to 10 forf we're lucky, what happened. how do we get so verb oars. >> i think obama made himself luchimlectureer in chief. president obama believes he has to go on television to give a speech to get himself out of every ditch which he dug for himself. neil: how would president lincoln survive the crushing three news network media of today? >> president lincoln was probably the physically strongest man to occupy the

white house, he was 6-4, 180, a great axe man. in the white house he showed skeptics he was strong he held a 30-pound axrex like axe, said wt to see me stop just say so. >> that is different from convincing speech or winning over a media play world? >> i thought you were getting at point how strong was he mentally and physically, he was strong enough to carry us through the worse war of history. he was able to suffer this and make good decisions, i believe america today is still strongest power in the world, good judgment, good temperament this would be a piece of cake for mr. lincoln. neil: you look at presidential

speeches they do, they they are not long winded, they are short and to the point. why is that? >> well, those who are have escaped vanity, know that men and women have little time to pay attention to big speeches, everyone is busy with families and jobs, mr. lincoln, his second inaugural, his greatest speech, as the gettysburg was 721 words, i believe i can say that in 7 minutes, we have to listen to president obama speeches when are generally. ty ogenerally empty of contend but they last close to an hour. >> you can get to point. right away. >> the candidate gets that,

maybe reverses that what dues lou lehrman say in. >> i think mr. lincoln would agree with the implication of what you say, he believed that the speeches which laid out all argument for your programs, when you are campaigning for president, can belong. for example. in lincoln-douglas debate each poke for as long as two hours, mr. lincoln's great speech in by bypy o peoria. he was laying ground work. there he had to be careful to explain all reasons, layout the logic. neil: they reprint the whole thing it would be in the press people could read it digest it deserve it? >> the best question i could get that is the reason i wrote the

book, what he did after he completed the speech, he had it reprinted, it took 7 issues of the paper atroph at -- peoria tt the speech, 6 1/2 years before he ran for president. neil: you were there at the time? >> that is what my son, he said, pop, how do you know so much? about mr. lincoln, and senator douglas. i said, i was. neil: his debates with mario cuomo in 80s were signature lincoln-douglas debates of their time, nothing like this since, a lot more after this. ya know, with new fedex one rate

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>> they all get holiday pay, a very deep discount on products we sell for their christmas dinner and christmas giving, and we take care of them with a nice challenge day meal. neil: does it bother you then, you heard this, you are just the opposite, you almost think that lurkers were chained -- workers were chained to shelves. >> it bothers me because it diminishes and disrespects to a certain extent those people who work very hard to serve customers in our stars. neil: with that my walmart card was revoked. walmart u.s. president bill simon defending his workers and their treatment but now critics blast the company for doubling down on cluelessness, letting workers help other workers, saying they would not be in that position to donate food and the like if the workers were paid

more. julie you are not impressed? >> i am not. average walmart worker, make below federal poverty rate for a family of 4. if you pay them a fair wage they could feed their family, and not have hand out from coworkers. >> the companies with similar situation, they get a pass, they are unionized? >> no, not a union issue but a matter -- >> why is walmart targeted. >> it is biggest company in the world, something that emblemat emblematic. pro mosteed -- promoted. >> not over a million employees henry ford had a good theory, paying his workers. increase his bottom line, and also lift them up that is a real

trickle down economics, they are able to buy your product and contribute to the economy in a better way, that is how you should do it. they are asking coworkers to give handouts. neil: i think what has been lost, i love julie, we forget about average folks who benefit from walmart's cheap prices, in this battle back and forth, who should get paid what, people just need a break when they get discount groceries or gas or prescription drug $4 a pop. that thing, but your thoughts? >> absolutely, walmart is -- to say walmart is somehow taking advantage of its employees by paying them something that is "not fair" walmart is faying them what they -- paying them the current market level, many are low paying, yes, but they are for very low skilled jobs. these jobs allow someone who has

very few skills to come in develop the skills with more skills, better quality they can get a higher paying job, if they were paid more, walmart would not be able to hire as many, they would raise their prices, and perhaps cut earnings. that are their only options, lay more people off, don't make as much money so investors are harmed which are pension fund. neil: every time, walmart opens up from mom and pop stores. they run for those to take that walmart job, because it only opportunity around in. >> walmart puts them out of business. neil: but average walmart that opens up, 7 people apply for every one position. >> i'm not discounts the good that walmart does in the community. i am saying that walton family has profit that exceed, i think the gdp of small countries.

neil: you are 1 dating that? >> i am not mandating, that i think that something that the family should think about. more their employees are able to make money the more they can shop at walmart -- neil: they feel pressure from got ar stores and others -- dollar stores and others. >> they are not. >> they are. >> walmart you know comes into a community. neil: i'm old enough to remember when kmart was th the big store, they come and go. i do know that they are giants you think can afford it for the moment can, blackberry, then research and motion after that the it device. the it company. >> microsoft. >> yahoo! >> that comes and goes. >> absolutely, it is not -- accurate to say walmart has a

excessive profit level, their operating margin is 5.9% compared to industry average 5.8, their net marcin 3.6 compared to 3.5. neil: you think -- julie they can? >> walton family alone can, they can afford to -- their executives are vastly over paid, there is no reason. neil: if you are rich you have an obligation ? >> note at all, it is basic economics. neil: that is cawrlt woul kmarto rule the world. >> no is not because aol was charging. neil: eat your snapshots google passed a tip year birthday,

don't tell them thousand spend money they night not always have. >> i am not. neil: yes you are. >> i'm saying if they pay their employees a little more. neil: with a magic tonic -- >> with -- no, that is. >> they can raise their prices too. >> also was generous with their workers kmart was too. >> and facebook and google too. >> show distinction. >> a better product comes along you lose, not when you pay your employees more, i love you, you know i'm right. neil: when if i told you that health care law will make you sicker you if are in the market to buy a home, after this. customer erin swenson ordered shoes from us online

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neil: health care -- house? heat care-house?

what if i told you that health care is weighing on the market for housing? do you think that is crazy, david has crunched numbers, what is going on? good to be with you, housing is going to be impacted by health care. disposable income, a lot look at this intelligent, those with better scores, say how much money am i going to have left over, after prmiumium premiums o up. some people are thinking about selling their homes and renting because of the uncertainty in this. neil: with health care? that is a big expense for a lot of people from a couple thousand to 10 to 15,000 a year. but enough to get them saying, that house i was going to buy, i'm not going to buy it?

>> correct, in mortgage stray they did a debt to income analysis. you take all consumer debt, and new mortgage payment, and you divide it by income. if you include the insurance premium, we're not going to be able to ignore this in premium cost, you take that into correction. vadoes a dispose able income analysis, what is left over after all your bell bills and ar expenses. neil: at margin, you argue for people in border line cases in particular now 50% more mr. health care policy, that difference is enough to disqualify them for a mortgage they otherwise would have gotten. >> correct. neil: i think that through, how many would be susceptible to that? in the scream of things.

>> 28% of american population excluded with a credit score below 620, the 78% or above that, we're going to see 30% of those people, impacted, this is depends on where they work. how that will get rolled out, there are a lot of unknowns. but i was with my doctor yesterday, my doctor, he said, dave, i have a $700 a monnin creasa monthincrease in high he, i don't know where we're going to get the income. we're looking at everything. neil: david you have been -- good seeing you gain, i think. you know after so many fires, investigator look to industry darling tesla. imagine if it had been toyota, we drive home the double

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neil: one too many fires, and even this company's most loyal pals in washington cannot ignore, tesla is finding out the hard way, being cool can only get you so far. what took you so long? now what is interesting, a number of tesla vehicles just catching fire. it would take a fraction of that to get them jumping like you know what on toyota. but toyota is not a darling, tesla is. better late than ever? or wa what about there are favorite technologies that politicians cannot resist, electric cars oras or, alternate

fuel cars are just that. they want to look the other way sometimes. this car has problems. neil: blaming media for this. three model s fires, which only occurred after very high-speed collisions, caused no serious injury or deaths received more nag ale headline than all -- gasoline fire combined. -- all i know that toyota just has to have an ashtray that does not close properly. i know, the stock was soaring, he was soaring, now it is going the other way. do you think he has a point or no point? >> i don't think he has a point. kind of scares me about these fires with the tesla, they were started with something called

road debris. i don't know if that is falling fall leaves or twigs on the road, the idea of that starting a fire is alarming to people who might top purchase the vehicle, the other idea there are fires with gasoline cars, when it gets struck, yes you can have fire, but residue on a road starts a fire? >> i would pass along to him, larger car companies they have millions of vehicles, percentage is small in the scream of thing -- scheme of things. in case of tesla fires, there is a smaller base, a little more than 10,000 cars sold. i'm not saying they are lemons. i say, if you apply the same rule to larger guys, same percentage wise, smaller

incident of trouble it behooves you to do the same thing. >> we're all on the hook, we gave this company half a billion. and state of california giving it credits that have realized. skate millio$68 million in firse year alone. this company is making quote unquote profits, based on government regulation that help them and hurt the competitors. neil: thank you, matt. tesla there is no more beautiful car you can have parked in your driveway, but just parked. j.p. morgan paid through the nose for sins that a government all but forced down its throat. ?

neil: the fact that jpmorgan chase is paying upward of $13 billion for more than 5 years after the fact. the big investment bank taking full responsibility for cash strapped washington mutual mortgage snafus even though they occurred prior to jamie dimon and company snapping up wamu. >> jim tracy says this is extortion. a punishment that expert at the time did not remotely fit supposed crime, that of then, jim with me now on j.p. morgan. >> i mean, it is incredible to

me, but sadly any company has to help th the government out has o take a step back and say woe. neil: if you don't, it's like the mob. >> you will get hurt. neil: you can't win. >> almost a settlement right now there will be others, he is going -- he is saying i have to take this, just an increase in act sig cost 5 years after the fact. neil: if they knew at this time, you buy the company you get liability, they say that was written into the grime, that company was going -- that is j.p. morgan would take all liabilitiy and risk, government saying, you knew what you were getting into, what do you say? >> i can't imagine have you time to look at that, at that point in time. neil: fire sale. >> think about it they let lehman go under. they had them in a room over weekend, saying hurry up. neil: we were chatting during the break, idea that any firm

that can -- upward $13 billion in finds has a lot of money, makes a convenient target. like they going after you a rich guy, big company, a showcase target. is there a problem with looking at most too successful? you get too much done? i think, he did a fantastic job. not needing to be bailed out with the bank. neil: you did too? it. it is what it is. >> hard to prove that, this goes through one committee after another, and second even if you are exonerated, they say this, a specious case we're building, like everyone wants their pound of flesh your head on a stick or jamie dimon's head on a stick. >> today's anniversary of gettysburg address, we've come a long way from who i think was

greatest president we had, a real unifier, and devolved in to a class warfare society, and the president leads it by calling people fat cats. i think that lincoln was rolling over in his grave during that process of last presidential election, president is supposed to bridge the country together not create class warfare. a lot of what you see now, i cannot get tax increases so let's shake the companies down, looking at moneys that have gone into the coffers of the government. neil: the white house. >> it is crazy. neil: why did they go. >> you just worry about what other pressure will be brought to barot company. you have to think about your shareholders, and government has all the power. neil: amazing, jim tracy good to see you. >> i appreciate it. neil: whether you like the rich or not you should look at trend, it is disturbing.

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>> americans are tired of rhetoric, tell congress that time is now. fix america's broken immigration system. neil: looks like a pricey ad, oh, it's mark zuckerberg's group saying that it is unacceptable. is the ceo's getting involved in politics acceptable to investors? if you are a facebook shareholder, are you thinking, not my money, not my cause or do you say, well, this advances mother ship? all to the good?

>> it is a dilemma, on one hand you want facebook to have low-cost of labor, they pay a lot for software initials in america. you want them to get labor from abroad that is talented, cheap, but you don't want their consumers to not like facebook so to say, because they don't top pay workers here a lot they would rather get a skilled software nerd from abroad to not compete like in late 90s. >> okay. i think they have expanded to it teslas, larry, what do you make of this? if you are just a facebook investor? neil, thank you for having me. i sort of agree with jonus, it is a you know, where government, and business, american entrepreneurship, sort of intersect. government is afraid to step in

and make a decision, because they are afraid of how the votes will play out, but american businesses will continue to strive to increase the bottom line, and develop products for domestic and worldwide. this is a tough battle it the go back and forth for many years to come as in the past. neil: switchining gears, a $98 , you buy it? larry? this is proof that stores are scared, they are offering you know dials like this? -- deals like this. >> >> you know, thanksgiving is coming. late in the season, retailers putting pressure to get this first consumer in the door, you look at where consumers have been spending the discretionary funds they have been putting it in more permanent products like home improvement. you look at tomorrow retail sales come out, i suspect it will follow same trend of

june 2012, saw tooth, going sideways a bit. retail stores are a little bit nervous. neil: they will get sale but it might cut their profits? >> they might have better sales but i bet their profits will be lower, retailer that middles in low income is against the wall. whether a home depot or car dealership. you -- walmart has no choice. their stock is one few retailer stocks under performing over last couple years. >> looking at home depot that is where you know a lot of people put their more permanent dollars into their homes. fixing up their kitchens. neil: i hear that, our night cap song, jonus, what you going to bed with tonight? >> inflation and retail sales

will drive federal reserve behavior, and to see if retailers are right or wrong. neil: your final verdict on that? >> i think we'll be lower inflation, it has been heading down since 2011. neil: larry? >> we don't' deflation. that is why the fed has been accommodating, they will continue to be accommodating, overshadowing the numbers that come out are important fomc notes tomorrow arch, you know you can't fight the fed, fed has a good backdrop to grow the economy. continuously. neil: that is something that janet yellen, assuming she becomes next fed chairman will not stop? >> that is what the word is. we'll see how she reacts to current policy and the numbers that come at her. but we don't' to do is create "shock and awe." we know that fed desires to

taper sooner or later. as long as they sort of communicate to the economy to the market, what they are doing. they already have, we've seen in may. neil: i think it is going down hard. we'll see, thank you. good night. gerri: hello, everyone. i am gerri willis. tonight on "the willis report." stunning revelations about obamacare. the glitches seem to be the least of the trouble. most of the system is not even built yet. >> also the real issues with health care. obamacare is not addressing and the head of the mayo clinic is my special guest tonight. and the highest rated electronics for christmas. and we are watching out for you tonight on "the willis report." ♪