>> you did that so quickly, we have seconds to spare. it's cold outside. good luck shopping. be prosperous. cost of freedom continues. target enrollment number for the end of december is 3.3 million. based on hhs' release this morning your department is more than 3 million off the target numbers. isn't that correct? >> through the end of november, that is correct, sir. >> uh-oh. the administration's target for obamacare enrollee is off by nearly 90% so far. those signing up are likely not the young healthy one the system needs to pay for all the new costs from the law. so are you about to see your healthcare bill goes up more than they have? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." mr. steve forbes, rick ungen. mike ozanian.

rich karlgaard, elizabeth macdonald. john tandy. is this going up more? >> ofcourse. doctors are restricted, deductibles are raised. young people know now they are learning more and more you can get the insurance if you have something happen to you and you need it. so something happens to you, they won't sign up. adverse selection. we are seeing it unfold now. >> rick, when you have a 90% failure rate on their own targets you know the costs are going to go up, right? >> here is the problem. the white house set themselves up by creating the target. i don't care if it's 10 million or 2 million. but i care about the mix. if the young healthy people don't come, you are right. we have a big problem. we won't see it pay off in price increases in the next two years because of the risk. but after that, if we don't get the right insurance plan it's a big problem. >> to rick's point, rich, the fact is that it seems that the peop signing up are not the healthy ones that are going to

pay more in the system than they take out. they are the sick ones that are going to take more than they will put in. then you have this. look at the figure. 800,000 of the people signing up are going directly to medicaid or the chip program, the childrens health insurance program that comes right out of the taxpayer bill. the costs are going up. >> yeah. insurance terms it's actuarial time bomb. the obama administration made a key mistake. key mill lennials supported him overwhelmingly in the two elections he assumed he could pass on the higher cost to young healthy millenial. the harvest university poll shows that is not so. only 40%f the age group say they will sign up. only 19% say they will probably sign up. only one-third of the healthy

millennial will take part in obamacare. >> the healthy people are the ones that are going to make it survive, if it survives. they don't sign up, it's dead. >> this was always on a wing and prayer to get the young to sign up. try to get the young to do anything really. any parent can tell you that. wait, wait, wait. we have white house graggoning adam levine, sex unanimous man alive to get more young in. i don't know if that will work. the government will not disclose demographics whether or not the young are signing up. we don'thave the data yet. >> john, do you think john getting a rockstar to promote this to work, get millennials to come on board? >> it may hurt. the bigger thing, there is no low-cost insurance without healthy people. naturally premiums will go up. the bigger problem here is neither republicans nor democrats understand what insurance is.

it's supposed to be for the catastrophic, for the holy unexpected. if you want to make that health insurance universal, it would be simple. the markets can provide it at a low price. any scenario under which the government overseas this is expensive, politicians want us to have insurance for row own doctor visits. that is not insurance. >> routine doctor visits, for people that they don't want like a healthy, young, single 28-year-old getting maternity insurance. the fact is that they are not signing up because it's a lousy plan. the president likes to call everybody else's plan the 6 million lost their plans lousy. but in fact his plan is lousy. >> you are right. for young people, obamacare is nothing more than extortion. why would you have to fine somebody for not buying it? we don't fine people who don't own a car if they don't buy car insurance. it's ridiculous. >> even for the people who are signing up in the insurance exchanges they are seeing the deductible is 42% higher than

the average has been. $5200, if they make $25,000 a year. that is a lot of money for people signing up to obamacare. >> here is what is amazing. for years the conservative argument is get more skin in the game. that's what it has done. raise deductible. >> for a sick person -- >> wait a second. >> $25,000. >> you this is what you have been asking for. >> no, i haven't been. >> more to the point. i know you don't want to hear it but you are jumping the gun. in the first two months we are not seeing young people cme. give it time. i know you don't like that. hold on. >> i want steve in here. the fact is what conservatives has been asking fo is for the individuals to take control of their own insurance. the problem obamacare is exactly the opposite direction. >> that's right. that is why you should have choice. if you want low deduible plan, fine. or a high deductible plan, you should have the choice.

one thing that will happen now with medicaid growing and medicare growing is more a more doctors because of low reimbursement take those patients. as a result, you are starting to see hints about the regulation saying that doctors must eat those patients. more and more government coercion. they can only reduce cost by rationing. >> the fact is what young people want if they want insurance at all is a catastrophic plan. not one with all the prerequisites that you have to have. you have no choi about with obamacare. >> yeah, david, that is all they can afford. remember this debate is occurring in the context of a pretty shaky economy. it's particularly shaky for young people. millennial have out-sized unemployment ratio compared to anybody else in the economy. so you are asking people most pressed upon by the lousy xy to pay the postmoney. and is it any surprise they are not enthusiastic about signing up? >> go ahead, emac.

>> only 41% are getting subsidies that enrolled. >> but the fact is that again, without the young healthy people going, we are all going to have to pay it. either through higher premiums or through the higher taxes. one way or the other, right? >> that's right. this is basic economics. if you have the riskiest people paying in the pool, naturally it will cost more. we have to get back to basics. we are a nation of individuals, some want little, some want a lot. if everyone pays for what they want, we have easy insurance system. the problem is when we try to give people insurance on the backs of others, it's expensive for everyone. very little people as a result having insurance altogether. >> rich, i wonder, the ople that don't buy in to this, they are supposed to pay a fine. there is the question how you impse the fine. i know people who are not paying their student loan bills. do thaw think they will pay the fine? i don't think they will.

>> the millennial predisposed to support the administration in general. if this administration require s young people to pay the fine they will have lost a generation of support. >> do you, rick? are they going to pay the fines? they will have trouble getting the fine. >> they are not high in the beginning, so i don't know. i'm hearing more arguments across the point. insurance has always been, always, any kind of insurance is on the back of others. when somebody's house burns down, people two didn't have a choice about what kind of policy you want. no, you do not. >> oma forces to get this, this, this. maybe i only want that. >> then you don't get doctors and the hospitals in the back end. >> john, what is it? finish your point. >> they are forcing to us be on the backs of others. if we had a choice to pool what kind of pool to join in to, a different scenario. >> it's not that way -- right. ring, it's not that way with government issue plan.

it's never been that way with the -- >> what about the regulation -- >> hang on. 80-year-olds have to get maternity coverage. really? >> how about the state -- >> there were more choices! there are not more choices. >> no, you had to have standardized medicine. >> who get assay there, who don't want to sign on to it? state or fed. >> i didn't understand the question. >> a lot of state insurance companies don't want to go along with obamacare. >> offer something. there are non-exchange plannous buy. they have to meet the minimum requirement as they did many state. >> bottomine this thing is one hell of a mess. that is how you sum it up. some congressman patting themselves on back for approving the budget deal, in light of the bad rap for passing the fewest bill on record. so at foes say we should be cering a do-nothing congress. that is the flip side up next.

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you're watching fox news. new record low. not just temperature outside your house but also the number of bills approved inside this house. congress is on race to pa the least productive year on record. john says that is great news. explain the flip side, john. >> stock markets love

gridlock. they don't love when the replaceses or democrats are passing law when -- republicans or democrats are passing laws. the stock are at all-time high not the rruption of money quantitative easing t a year ago, president obama's legislative program ended. ben bernanke will be out at the fed next year. we have a total big credit. this is bullish for the stock market. the two are related. no legislation. great stock. >> gridlock is good for this country. >> it' completely irrelevant. anything congress has or hasn't done did not affect the market. the market is up because people don't have anywhere else to go. if congress would have gotten busy and go with the infrastructure and jobs prgrams you would see real impact. >> rick blames the slow economy on ok instruction. i. what do you say? >> i disagree. the best thing to he

americans is a robust economy and the strong jobs. but the government is getting in the way. we can't ignore that we have a $17 trillion debt. as john said so many times the government doesn't have the own pot of gold that it is pulling from. taking money out of the private economy and the marketplace so it is dragging down the economy. i'm happy congress is ineffective this year. >> i'm happy because we have a new star. kashmir hill is with us. great to see you. does congress need to do more or less? >> do-nothing congress is bad for us, because we need legislation to reign in the n.s.a. it's been unsettling for the consumerin the u.s. and abroad and bad for american businesses in silicon valley. cisco reported a slump in sales abroad. analysts predict that the u.s. cloud computing industry

will lose $22 billion to $180 billion in the next three years. the customers abroad are uncomfortable trusting the u.s. companies they now see as the intelligence agency in the u.s. i would like to see them reign in the legislation. >> so there is one example of where congress needs to act in order to get out bottlenecks in the economy. >> well, congress when they undo the bottleneck also inadvertently create new bottlenecks. it's not the bill that congress passes but what they pass. they could have 300 innocuous bill and you get a dodd-frank or obamacare and you have done harm to the economy. another thing at work here is not just congress that passes laws. regulatory agencies are passing laws as well. to make sure they are not overruled the obama administration is starting to pack the court.

so numerous new laws, congress is irrelevant agency. >> again, that is dangerous when you have the executive taking on that much power to pass law when is which are regulation. rich karlgaard, president calvin coolidge said it's more important to kill bad bills than pass good ones. do you agree with calvin? >> as calvin would have said i agree and he would have stopped because that's why he was called account silent -- called "silent cal." the makeup of the presidency and the congress and in the senate today is similar to what it was after the $94 election. as i recall, the late '90s did well for the stock market. so john is right about gridlock. >> by the way, john, coolidge vetoed 50 bills while president. unlikely that the president will be doing that. do you think it's what is

needed? one party or the other saying no to anythi that comes their way? >> without question. economic growth is easy. it's the nature to grow. if you get the government out of the way, not legislating people can do what they are best at. there is no surprise that the stock markets are more confident. they are pricing a better future, because there will be very little legislation from washington. >> fst and last word from john this time. using santa to scare kids. a new green tactic to sell global warming to have your blood boiling. that's the bottom of the hour with eric. but one gift that the post office could deliver that might fill all taxpayers with the holiday cheer. ♪ ♪ as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires.

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the rush is on. the u.s. postal service expected to deliver 15 billion pieces of mail this holiday season. 158 billion pieces for whole year. it's still on track to lose nearly 5 billion bucks this year. meantime, britain has privatized the royal mail service. look at this. the stock is skyrocketing since it went public over a couple of months ago. steve, should we do the same here? >> absolutely, david. it's not just britain. numerous other countries has done it as well. post office have asset, real estate and overfunded pension fund. they made great strides and efficiencies. congress got out of the way.

truly privatized do great things. universal service, ups and fedex reach virtually every mailing address in the country. if they have a remote area they need a local store to provide essential postal services as well. >> rick, the agency keeps losing money. more a more, year after year. >> i agree that it's out of step with the times but i don't think we're ready to do it. too many remote places would have a problem. there are things in development. a company called zoom box i have seen that really can replace what the post office is doing. we're not there yet. >> mike, here is why. we have a specific reason why the post office is losing the money. 80% of the operating expense goes to salary and expenses. that is twice what fedex pays. it's another bureaucra that keeps getting loaded and loaded more and more with bureaucracy. >the work rules are

outdated. as far as the remote areas having to pay more, that seems fair. in wyoming and other places like that, they pay less for their home and land. i equals everything out. >> we don't like following the british. thatcher wasn't a bad leader but have they shown us the way? should we privatize the way they did? >> i hear what you say. united kingdom is smaller than the size of oregon. >> perfect example for us but they are doing well. >> here is the deal. get the government out of the way of the post oice. the post office wants to open up shop, the store front in shopping malls or drugstores. you know, also you are right about the union costs for the benefits. the is a big thing. they are privatizing in europe, canada, asia, new zealand, japan. >> sabrina, let's do what they are doing? >> yeah. i agree. one of the problems, of course, is the post office tried to trim personnel and cut back on the hours. but they are limited in their

ability to mod earnize based on congress. unlike the private marketplace if you fail to adapt, you will go out of business. we have the company that is sort of sputtering along, the institution. we should either get government out of the way so they can do what they want to do. >> steve, quickly. aren't politics in favor of this? isn't this something both sides of the aisle can agree on? >> only way it happens is the tremendous losses and there are positive ways to do it. i will co money but it's what happens when you get government out of the way. it's worth the price. they have pension fund and they have wherewithal to mak adjustments relatively painlessly for most people. >> there is a specific example of how to save money. coming up, the informers have the last-minute stocks to pay for your last-minute shopping. (vo) you are a business pro.

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we are back. before you head out for last-minute shopping don't forget to the last minute stocks to pay for what you buy. emac, vanguard russell. >> a large cap. blue chip name in there. i like it. >> etf is collection of stocks do you like it? >> i love the low cost of owning the fund. you have to be aware that three of the top four holdings are the tech companies. microsoft, apple and google. >> you like ratheon? >> i do. big increasen the missile defense system in the next year. >> you like it? >> diversified. i like it.

>> that is it, everybody. have a wonderfuleekend. thank you for watching "forbes on fox." we continue with "cashin' in" and my buddy eric bolling. stay tuned. desperate time calls for desperate measures. white house calling for celebrities to get young people to sign up for obamacare. and the video to sign up for obamacare. if you think the sweater you got last year stunk, wait until this year. they are priding parents to give gift of obamacare to the adult kids. then say it ain't so, santa? greenpeace using santa to terrorize the kids. there is no alternative but to cancel christmas. >> cancel christmas? no way! by the way, could they get any lamer? leave the kids