we thank you for being with us. we'll see you here tomorrow night, please. good night from new york. tonight from new york -- good night from new york. ♪ economy. neil: we will watch and i will do it for us tonight. ♪ ♪ >> we are all social now. >> it is still too much capitalism. john: the socialist are here. and they make a powerful argument. >> if you have been successful, you didn't get there on your own. >> once upon a time there was a window was happy and fascinating. >> and another time rich people decided that they weren't rich enough. >> inequality, is that so important after all? >> we are better off.

>> is that capitalism? socialism has contributed to the quality of life in this country. >> socialism sucks the life out of people. socialism or capitalism? here in hong kong, handing in one form is all i have to do. in defending the market. that is our show tonight. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> now it is time for john stossel. john: the free market is under attack. markets lead to wealth disparity. at first glance, rich people getting richer at the expense of others. president obama getting big applause by mocking those of us that they the free market will

fix all sorts of problems. >> the market will fix everything, they tell us. if we cut or reulations and taxes. but here's the problem. it doesn't work. it has never worked. >> that applause he got the reason that they regulated the market and try to fix it and make it more fair. laws like obamacare and dodd-frank and we need more laws. >> iould not say more. i am a firm believer in the free market and also capitalism. >> but you do want more if you want a higher minimum wage, right? >> yes, but don't say more as though it is this distance.

we want to make sure that people are able to enjoy capitalism and what it is all about is a country of laws and not just what people want to do. and so don't make this sound so negative. >> this talks about limited government. leading capitalism happen. >> nobody wants too much. the question is that too much in one place is too little in another and that is why we have this debate and that is why you and i are talking about it. and we cannot have just 1% of the american population with the majority of the wealth. this is a country that whatever you earn, you deserve. you need to put levels of regulation of those people who abuse this capitalistic system.

john: what percentage should government be? >> it is taking place in the congress. john: 5%, 10%? remap percentage doesn't mean a darn thing. if you want to have smaller government, you have to make certain tha the dreams and aspirations of the american people have been met. hadley davis? well, we do it by law. >> congressman, i assume that you mean well. but i think these laws have unintended consequences and many are bad ideas. and you sponsored a green energy tax credit for electric cars and here you are on the floor of congress. >> in this endless what this bill will pursue, such as hybrid cars. >> was that a good idea? >> is a great idea. we should invest in those ideas.

>> but it was people like mike huckab and myself got a free golf cart, the subsidy was so big. a bunch of us got free stuff from you. >> the individuals have this on their minds. and it doesn't mean that this is bad. this money wasn't supposed to go to people, it was supposed to go to a say standing science. and that is why we have these agencies and the government and that is what they do. some people are going to be ripd off and we can identify who they are. but when we do about it? we make certain or lease we tried to make certain that we prevent this from happening. but do not allow government to think that it must be small and that it's good being small by itself. it's not good.

john: we are a long way from small government in this country. congressman, thank you. we can agree to disagree. >> we are not a small country. john: we have a very big government. sadly i fear most americans agree with congressman ringgold. a lot of people agree with opponents who say things like this enact european socialism works. [applause] to europeans get full health care coverage maternity leave, free college, public transportation that doesn't smell like something bad. john: let's turn to our economists. so the europeans are getting all this free stuff. >> if your content, the european social state is a great way to

go. but if you're in a society where fighters you didn't know what that is, because of the government program, because an entrepreneur envisioned that we might make this better as a result. >> big entitlements, things are going great, and the house of cards came crashing down. we know where the government takes us. there's this battle in america. john: maybe you know, but a lot of people don't know. the pope, of all people, has come out criticizing the market and he is upset that some rich people are so much richer than poor people and the income inequality is just upsetting to americans as well. >> i share his concerns. our brothers and sisters in this country and around the world should be helped. but the secret is that in the last 40 years, the number -- the number of people who were living

on a dollar or day or less, that's up by 80% in last 40 years. that's not because of stimulus money or minimum wage. but it's because of the free market. the free market is the best thing to help them. >> so you're saying if you're going to lift up the poor, you have to have an equality? >> one of the remarkable successes about this economy is the income and inequality it is global and narrowing. and in a world where you spend most of your day transferring clean drinking water, that is not a life of meaning or opportunity and we need to elevate this and continue to do that in a free society that is the most effective way to make that happen. john: okay, so people lived

rely lousy lives and only recently since we've had markets and the industrial revolution, have a lot of poor people within themselves higher. but the rich have gotten even richer and this upsetspeople so what is wrong with that? >> here's the thing. if you took somebody from two or 300 years ago and brought them forward the things that would've made saddam are the same thing that the poor in america already have. a phone, refrigeration. in the air-conditioning if you live in the american south. those things are the things that make the quality of life better for everyone at the same time and hands down it is a winner for everyone. and one of the reasons -- john: that is a necessary

byproduct of freedom in your opinion? >> here's the thing -- john: can i get a yes or no? >> economic inequality happens. they create value for everyone. and he helped to develop what was used i the operating room and the gurney is better in that room and bill gates by one office package at the time made life better for all of us in ways that we take for granted because we didn't see good things happening. john: the pope apparently does. income inequality is part of financial speculation and this is a new theory. >> it requires us engaging with those of us around the world.

but if you look at the government systems in the free enterprise stem, it has provided this supported throughout history. >> one point about fairness. corporations do things that they say will make life more fair. here's the commercial from starbucks. ♪ double knockout ♪ ♪ john: it sounds good, we are at going to pay a little bit more to these farmers. >> what is wrong with it is that

fair trade is a marketing scheme in that scheme was designed to play on caring people to get them to shell out a little bit more money than they would otherwise. at the very best, as far as charities go it's a very inefficient form of charity because you pay a little bit better coffee shop or at the grocery store and you hope that the few penny coming to that trickled to the coffee growers do you hope the little bit of that money. and what is wrong is that the money doesn't go very far. first ofall, the united states could end its ban on sugar from outside of the united states and that could it could stop subsidizing rich cotton farmers in the united states and it gives them access to the market. the other thing you can do is take that extra 25 cents and give it to an ngo that you know

it's been really effective with their work with the very people you're trying to help in the first place. john: i will give you the last word. these arguments and inequality, it takes people off and they want government to step in and fix it. >> here is the bottom line. free markets is about a lot more than money were rich people getting ahead. it's about what's moral. hat helps the poor people the most and what gives us opportunities to earn success in two understand that is why our founders came and created this country. not for stimlus. john: if you like to keep this conversation going, go to facebook and use our hash tag free market to let people know what you think. and coming up, it why a few

places like chile, slovakia, and africa got richer, while other countries stay poor. >> if you have a free market, you do better. if you don't, you stapler. john: also, i go around the world eking out free markets. here in hong kong, handing in e form is all i have to do. and the government raising the stakes. i will have that next every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor.

our commitment has never been stronger. but it doesn't usually work that way with health care. with unitedhealthcare, i get information on quality rated doctors, treatment options and cost estimates, so we can ke better health decisions. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. open to innovation. open to ambition. open to boldids. that's why n york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state. move here, expand here, or start a new business here and pay no taxes for ten years... we're new york.

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john: one group of americans who were once ardent capitalists are not anymore. american socialism has captured many. and why not? if you grow wheat and rice and corn, you could try support, subsidies, welfare for the rich because farmers today are richer than the average americans. it's a terrible policy that survives because politicians and farmers say that this preserve stability in the market. they protect the food supply. but that is a scam. new zealand abolished farm subsidies years ago and the farmers are better off and

unfortunately in america, government officials are clueless about markets and the rules are complicated. so let's focus on one crop. raisins. ♪ ♪ i heard it through the grapevine ♪ ♪ john: is not cute? california farmers are good at growing raisins, but shame on most of them for colluding with government and messing with the free market. bureaucrats have had something called raisin administrative committee, ordering raisin farmers to give the government a third of their crop. it is supposed to keep prices stable. most farmers go along with it, but one said no.

so the government find him $650,000. he still says no. >> if you work for a wage, it wod've the studio broadcast demonstrations that we need 40% of your wages for our promotions. and how would you feel? john: i would be ticked off. i would think that my competitors have to give reasons as well, and maybe things will even out. >> this is america. what you produce, you should be able to keep. in this case they wanted to take my raisins and i said no. so they couldn't take the raisins and they said if we can't take the raisins, we are going to give you a fine. and i wasn't the only one. there were 60 farmers who said no more and the buck stops here.

>> they came after me and our family and our assets and said you give us the money or the raisins and i said no. john: the supreme court has gone bounced it down to a lower court. your opponent, the administrative committee member would've come onto the basis while this was being argued. but he did tell us on the phone that before this plicy, there were wild swings of supply and demand and then he said during world war ii there was an important security aspect. i like raisins and i don't see the security aspect. in the basic argument you made is that this is a tool that be industrious part of.

>> it has been part of the market that is reducing their supply into the marketplace so how are you going to survive if they give 40% of your crop? it's absurd and i am surviving because i didn't give it to them. aot of my neighbors dead and a lot of them are broke. we lost about 3000 growers because of this. they took it and they sold it overseas at a subsidized price below the cost of production. and so the europeans and japanese and chinese were getting raisins below the cost of our production. and they said that that was helling us? come on, give me a break. john: i like the wind. and yes, it helps america's

export business. they say, don't you want to help european and chinese people? >> oh, yes, if they want to pay for it. and that is the issue and that's what our constitution is. if the government wants her raisins, pay for it. other crop subsidies, corn and cotton, tobac, and they give them money, peanuts, not the raisin farmer, they took our raisins and didn't give us a dime. they gave us a slap on the back to come back with more raisins next your. john: when the ideal world be they don't take your raisins but they don't give the other guy's subsidies? >> we don't need subsidies. we need to get these subsidies off our back and market our own raisins without interference. john: marvin horne, thank you very muh. my next guest says americans are right to criticize what we call capitalism. and also, clint eastwood and his chrysler commercial.

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♪ >> there has to be some kin of a rebellion between the people that have nothing and the people that got it all. >> we are here to get the money back to the american people. john: that is from the movie called capitalism, a love story. it really is story. more complaints about bank bailouts and corporate welfare. business and law professor says there ia lot to hate about capitalism, as it is often practiced today. what do you make? >> if you go back as far as adam smityou find in a wealth of nations that he talked repeatedly about how business people try to use political connections to get wealth and

everyone else's expense. tough to find any reference to business that is positive because that is how markets work to benefit everyone, not how they can be manipulated people want political pvilege. john: ipod capitalism is greedy businesses competing. >> well, i guess we can use words in different ways. i will not object. if you want to use the word capitalism, but i understand why other people use it in a fairly different way. it. john: markets, not capitalism. john: the looks at the way in which politically secure privilege distorts markets and make sure they work for the benefit of the politically well-connected but not necessarily anyone else. john: the auto bailout is being celeated by the president. i save detroit. most americans would save what is wrong with that? we want a strong american car

manufacturing industry. >> this seems to me, if the american car manufacturing industry is not release serving american consumers and consumers around the world than it is a profound mistake to allow the political connections that people associated with that industry be used to persuade congress and the president to award the huge sums of our money to those folks thathat is a story that happens all the time. politically well-connected business make the case that somehow they are essential to everyone else's well-being and in so doing are able to get huge sums of money that could be better invested elsewhere. john: it was pretty huge. 50 billion, more than 10 billion. but they paid a lot of that money back. >> the whole process distorts incentives and sends the message to politically well-connected corporations repeatedly that they can screw up and count on a

helping hand from the taxpayer. there is a long-term distortion of incentives that this kind of behavior and also the long street bailouts, persistently expected to lead to this. we should be nervous. john: your answer is let them go broke? >> resources should go to their most valuable use. how can we tell when they will do the most good is a general matter. we can tell by the returns. if resources invested do not yield higher returns, that seems good evidence that the industry does not merit that kind of up lesson. john: so if they went broke and the equipment would have been purchased by more efficient companies will still get -- >> that seems right to meet. john: chrysler got clint eastwood to the practice a bit

in this commercial. >> most teams are in their locker room. the second half. people of detroit know a little something about this. they almost lost everything. we all pull together. motor city is fighting again. john: we all pull together. who is weak? the commercial led to the disparity. >> it is that time in america. people are out of work. they are wondering where all of their money went. twelve and a half billion of it went to chrysler, some form of a bailout. john: yet americans support that. >> we have a history, it seems to me, of using the rhetoric of public benefit to reallocate resources to the politically well-connected. when you are politically well-connected you can get the public to pay the bill. john: thank you.

i will try to pick up one your language from now on. free-market our free-market. capitalism can be government politically managed. coming up, lessons about capitalism from an 11 year-old. capitalism from an 11 year-old. [ male announcer ] e new new york is open. open to innovation. open to ambition. open to boldids. that's why n york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state.

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♪ john: lemonade for sale. $0.50. outside the studio i once tried selling lemonade legally. i found that the new york laws make that nearly impossible. i found it nearly impossible to try to understand the rules. i need an assistant. the government said i had to take a 15 hour food protection class. bicycle injuries. i don't have bicycles.

when i was a kid, selling lemonade was how you learned about capitalism, but i cannot now legally sell it in my town. it is not just new york. this month in oregon and a 11 year-old plant trees to pick mistletoe. she then tried to sell the mistletoe so she could help pay for her braces. authorities told her, you may not sell it to people on the streets. it is illegal. the authorities then told her, you canank. that i legal. her father then sent us this videotape. >> if people want to work along with them work. amazed that people cannot work hard, but they can be purchased lazy. it. john: a lesson to teach kids. i am glad that she and a few others appreciate the benefits of free markets. in kentucky loren hansen, she

and her father, wrote this book about teaching capitalism to american. so you are 13. what do you care about capitalism or free markets? >> children my agent by school, anywhere, they don't understand it. when they hear it -- john: people my age don't understand it. >> i don't think anyone does completely unless the kind of read about or hear about it from somebody. john: what you understand? >> i guess that it is really kind of crucial to our society. her charity in jobs and the taxes forhe government. it is just really important. john: you have details in your boat like chapter 30. starting to hire people, making a difference in their lives. >> we kind of wanted to say that capitalism is more than just

making money or jobs. i mean, yes, every business is first goal is to make a profit and to stay in business because if they make a profit than they can help grow our capitalism and make it better. overall they help our society as a whole. john: you did not do this yoself. you were helping? you are a lawyer. >> absolutely not. i am a defender of business. we worked on this together over her summer break. it was always a level of love to write about capitalism and support business and trust. john: why? this is selfish. >> and yet businesses will provide her with your future opportunities. quite extensive in terms of the impact in our students just don't have a good handle on it in these. john: they don't. i agree that they should learn something.

i have a nonprofit that offers teachers free videos from fox and abc to try to explain free-market. the term free-market is better because capitalism sometimes means crony capitalism. a few weeks ago the prime mister of britain gave a speech saying capitalism should be in the classroom. >> i want to make sure we reach students everywhere. john: good for the prime minister. it is unfortunate that he makes that an annncement kirsten a tuxedo at a fancy dinner reenforcing everyone's idea about free-market for fat cats. >> well, i like it. as you said, the bully pulpit we wrote the book in order to try their regions clearly a lot of our adults don't understand capitalism.

if we can reduce the stunts there is hope. john: but y don't learn this in school. >> i have not learned it particularly yet, and my brother has not. he is about to go off to the university of kentucky. john: he learned about quilting in english class. >> he told me a lot about that. i think that students should learn. i mean, our education has been great, and i loved learning about elvis. all of my teachers taught me writing skills which overall helped me write this book and make a difference. what i hopehis cooling to be a future generation of capitalism. john: i hope you make a difference. thank you. coming up, why are some my customers can shop around.

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♪ john:merica has problems, we do pretty well. 7 billion people on merit, 2 billion struggle to live on the dollar or two would day, fewer than 1 billion have anywhere near our level of wealth, comfort. why did we do so well when most

of the world did not. he knows the answer. he studies economies around the world. >> the secret is to allow experiments, millions of people to try out there are lines the fine them new businesses in the innovaons. it's about economic freedom, giving people a chance to get ahead. >> and you just returned from a trip for around the world where you made a documentary featuring pockets of success that he found which will run on pbs. let's play a part of what you say. >> a stunning example of what can happen when a country embraces economic freedom. in 15 it was next-to-last amon stall the country's ranked by the treasury board. today is a much the world's top ten. john: this happened because the chilean dictator hired a group of young economists from the

university of chicago, students influenced by chicago. they persuaded him to try free-market reform. >> implementing an open trade policy, returning businesses to private ownership and private nuys the pension system. the poverty rate was than 40%. today it is 14. john: in reference, something called the fraser report. >> that is an attempt to obctively measure economic freedom of the country to try to come up with the amount to a mathematical formula where we use the statistics. and with the help of that we came up with a ranking. and with that we can correlate and look at other things. john: the best places to live on the freest countries. the united states used to be number two. no it has fallen to number 17.

why did that happen? >> the world has been liberalized. this creates a very, very great and opportunities. i think in the united states. one problem is that you take well for granted. when you have had it for generations you stop thinking about where it came from, the productive forces, investors kept to out investmen, entrepreneur should. john: we pass more rules. harder to start a business, taxes are higher. that dropped as. >> the bailout the automotive industry and do not respect the property rights. all of those things are dangerous to read the reputation of the country's taste for quite a while but takes a lot of time to build it, to make people certain that in the long run if i invest in the future i will get ahead. my children will need a better life. if you start to mess with that too much with too much are richer government people are much more short-term. that is dangerous.

john: and your model of success. done very well. now i here there are about to elect a leftist government. they don't understand why they are doing well. people don't get it. >> the struggle is always an uphill battle. in the long run you always think it is easier to redistribute wealth, to take from the rich and give to everybody else. it is in great idea that we can all live off of everyone else's expense. the problem is that is not the way it happens. that is not where we came from, and that is one reason why people in the region talk about the migration out of the region from a poor country into a developed country. that is a danger if they have starting to regulate and distribute in this way. if you want people to stop being hungry the midst of being poor, you need to liberalize the economy. john: there is also more wealth

disparities. the rich get rich which makes people uncomfortable. >> and that is what you see in the short run. would you do not see is how the pie is growing so that the smaller share of a larger pie can be much, much greater. yes, you are more equal if you live in a country like -- one of the examples an hour documentary. but i would rather be poor in south korea. on average 11 the freest countries that are among the poorest, youre ten times more and the poorest in the least freak injuries. stow inequality, so important. yes, it is. if you made love more than you hate poverty. that is what is really about. if you hate poverty you might go for a more unequal society. john: let's move on to a more recent success story. in africa you went to ambia.

>> in 1995 this landlocked nation was one of the lowest ranked countries. today it is one of the most economically free nations in just 15 years this impoverished african nation as increase its economic freedom to a level comparable to poland and france, opening doors for people like sylvia. her first official business was to open a small one-room restaurant. from this modest beginning she expanded her business to include extensive catering. a school for restaurant service workers, and the processing of nationwide distribution. john: could for her, but are people doing well? it is africa. >> no, they are not, but there are taking a for steps. that is an incredibly important step. people used to say that africa was a hopeless continent and came up with all sorts of eight to five explanations, history, culture.

but will we see is that when some african countries began to liberalize and give people a chance, you know what, they begin to make progress as well. what we need is the creativity, hard-working people. john: thank you. coming up, economic freedom means allowing people to try something new, like a new business, prosperous countries make that easy. which countries are those? i try to openusinesses in delaware, new york from india, and hong kong. and hong kong. i will tell you what happened every day we're working to be an even better company - and to keep our commitments. and we've made a big commitment to america. bp supports nearly 250,000 jobs here. through all of our energy operations, we invest more in the u.s. than any other place in the world. in fact, we've invested over $55 billion here in the last five years - making bp america's largest energy investor. our commitment has never been stronger.

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♪ john: lemonade for sale. $0.5 i tried to do that legally, but i gave up. the regulations are and listen would have taken me at least two months to wade through them and passed the food safety test commit the approved fire extinguisher. fortunately it is easier in delaware. >> i am told it is wonderful. john: i was able to get permits to open a store in wilmington. >> you want to buy a t-shirt? >> not right now. john: delaware and nevada are the states that make it easiest for but that does not been easy. i had to register with the delaware secretary of state, the division of corporations get of federal identification number. but this can be done in just a

few days. and it was good i had done it legally. the scout came over to make sure i had my vending permanent. it cost me $10. >> they will beat you. john: getting permission did take about a week, and that is too long. what better than new york. by contrast,n hong kong i could start a business in one day. handing in one form was all i had to do. the next day i was in an indoor shopping center running my own business. it was a stupid business. no one wanted to buy the frisbee and yo-yos, but this ability to illegally trying a business is why places like hong kong and america, years ago, prospered. people were not desperately poor just a few decades ago. today they are not as rich as we are. it happened because the limited government allows people to try stuff.

america's piles of regulations make that very difficult. and it is getting worse. we are becoming more like india. i try to open a business in calcutta, but i quickly gave up. cummins hostile to markets, thousands of rules. people who want to obey the rules wind up to deal with the bureaucrats. it is all well intended. rules to make sure the food is clean, the building safe. the result is that so many good ideas die as forms bumbled and stacked on shelves already cluttered with bundles from other people who are waiting. that is why in the is a sport. india is beginning to figure that out. sadly in america we keep passing more rules. maybe some day american politicians to will figure out it is not more rules that make life better. it is free markets and allow people the freedom to experiment , try things, and that's let people -- that lets

people prosper. even the poor because the rising tide of prosperity lifts all boats. that is our show. see you next week. ♪ ♪ gerri: hello, everybody, i'm gerri willis. tonight on "the willis report," a user's guide to taxes. your tax questions answered from estate taxes to obamacare. we've got you covered. this is your time to chime in. we're including your e-mails, tweets and your phone calls. also the legal battle over a cross erected for war verans. a judge orders it taken down, but will it be removed? we're watching out for you tonight on the willis report. ♪ ♪ gerri: welcome to "the willis report," your show, your money, your voice.