>> ben, you have been spot-on with t merging growth things. guys, fantastic sow. "cost of freedom" connues on the place for business: fox. ♪ ♪ don't get yourselvein trouble by declaring it now. >> exactly. >> yeah. it did happen. >> remember that? obamacare navigators caug encouraging individuals to commit tax fraud, to get government bsiaries. now a new house committee report is bashing the program for msconduct like that, along with poor training and iffy protections for consumers' very private informatn. is it time to cast away e expensive taxpayer-funded navigators once and for all? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. happy holidays. weome to "forbes o fox." go inocus with steve forbes, mike ozanian, elizabeth macdonald, john tandy and

rick unger. tame to get rid of the naigators? >> of course. this is something the insurance companies do eve day and they should have their employees do it. the bigger picture in defense is they are a symptom of the much-biggeproblem which is the obama administration's obnoxious conceit it can create healthcare market out thin air. thbetter answer is to repeal it. >> rick, john is fur getting rid of them. but he is defendg them. >> i heard that. >> i heard that. >> john is right aut one thing you said, the insurance broks have people like this, who help customers fire out what the best policy is for them. that is all the navigators are doing. i look at the report from the house committee. itas ridiculous. they relied on data provided by james o'keith, who by the way, while they are concerned about the criminal behavior, he is the only one who has been convicted of a misdemeanor and had to pay over six fures to settle a case. you know, this is a tempest in

the teapot. leave these people alone. they ar trying to do something good. a lot of ways you can attack obamacare. this is not the way to do it. >> they are doing it for a lot of money. the starting pay is $20 an hour. it goes up to $48 an hour. $100,000 a year. the question is how much bang for the buck they're getting. president left for hawaii on his vation. he should know well they are 500 enrollees in th state of hawaii and they received $ 200 million for navigators and the means to get people enrolled. $410,000 per enrollee. >> thiis turning in a costly jobs act. we have can't stop oversight of this. you heard it in the audio. navigators telling people how to under report income to get the tax suidiaries. the health reform is turng in a crass act. i wish nancy pelosi had her own personal navigator to read e bill an everybody else

could t their navigators to read the bill to see the fall-out from. this by the way, why can't we get a state xerox toner changer to do job to help people figure out health refo? and the private market is doing it. we hve insurance companies and 800 hotlines to help out. >> navigator to get nancy pelosi to read it. love it. bill, what do you think? time to get rid of them? >> get rid of navigators because yo don't like obamacare? that's like saying we don't like the way the way the government outlawed the highways so outlaw google maps. life is complicated. insurance is complicated. government is complicated. you need guides. the way you need guides to collect income taxes. how would we survive if we didn't have hr.b blocks? do you -- h&r blocks? >> thee registered, college graduates a lot with c..a.s. you don't need college education oeven a criminal background check as sebeus told us week in front of a

commttee. they have sensitive information, social secity numbers, tax returns. do we want people who we know nothing about toave all the stuff? >> no. to say we can get it by other means is not really t answer. these people are there because of the incompetency of gernment. the more complex it become, the more people they have to hire. this is just more and more government bloat. to have easy access to that kind of information with no safeguards as you do shows the whole tng to scratch and start over. >> i wond here not do it in the private sector, mike? we are spending $275 milli on the nigators. those are navigatorfor the state sysm. >> obamacare is still a house of lies. they should be changed to obama lies. you can keep your doctors, you said no. you can keep your plan, no. it's shopping on amazon, no. there won't be rationing. no.

all lies. the plan as john points out should be thrown out and obliterated. >> citing h&r block as something that is a great thing because they have a cottage industry to figure out that barbed wire pile of a tax code. that is the way health reform is. the fact that the individuals who don know when they don't have, they don't have the criminal background checks have access toersonal identification information. and income information from people signingup. >> rick,oesn't it concern you? >> the h&r block was a great example. your response is interesting. they are not registered the x preparers. ny of them likely don't ha college degrees and you are giving them the same exact type of information. why haven't you ever expressed concern about criminal ba checks for people who are doing that? >> i would. in fact, before i would entitle them to my social security or my tax returns, i would make sure that they weren't criminals or misusing

it. >> how do you do that? h&r block doesn't do it. >> by the way, i am an&r block tax preparer. they check in to it. >> whether they are college ucated or not is not the point. if h&r block employees suse private information, h&r block goes out of business. if the obamacare navigator misuse that information they will get more funding. there is a big difference between government-driven entities and the private sector. >> bill you see that difference clearlydon't you? >> listen, there are crooked tax preparers out there. they go to jail. there are ways to deal with that. i'm not going to outlaw the industry because i don't like the tax code. i don't like it more than you do. >> h&r block is a private copany. they mess up you take them to court. the navigators are out of the hands of the citizens. when theyess up, the citizen is just out of luck. >> isn't it easier to hide this bad behavior in a government bureaucracy than in the private sector?

>> we have seen that en they testify before congress. they haveeen less than forthcing. john is right. in the private sector you are punished for doing illegal things or making mistakes. in government you are rewarded. rewarderred with more workers and more funding. >> you are also more einitiate the private sector. the private sector came out with mbers like these, spending that much money on the few enrollees would they be in existence? >> they would not. >> private sector is more efficient because if you are not, you are put out of business. business cannot exexist without investment. if you misuse the capital they put you out of business. in government again, when you fail, you fail upward on the way to more funding for the failed ideas. >> clearly you have seen that happen before, have you not in government? >> sure you have. i'll tell you what i find really troubling. why are you all presuming bad behavior on the part of navigators? you have one bad apple. there are people whoorked in

this building where we're sitting who were turned out to be bad apples. you don't judge a class of people on that. let's turn a blind eye and throw more money down a rat hole. >> one bad guy. >> we are talking about government funding here. taxpayer funded navigators here. why can't you get a state employee or government ployee to do this job? >> we have seen this play out with the i.r.s., targeting political people that obama didn't like an the testimony front of congress where they lied. >> so again you have sebelius in front of a committee saying no, we don't have criminal background checks. and yes, a criminal could get through. there is a possibility. it's the lack of the checks and balances and the whole obamacare thing that bothers most people. >> yeah, when you have a pot of honey out there, the flies are goi to come to it. when you have th information with no safeguards you know this is being hacked to kingdom come. more scandals to come. >> see where that takes us.

dicaprio getting wealthy playing a rich capitalist. now he's bashing rich capitalists. some say a bad rich. >> it's about grereed. it's about essentially

now back to "forbes on fox" and the headlines, foxnews.com. i was making so much money, i didn't know what to do with i >> uh-oh, leo. leonardoicaprio playing a

hedonistic rich capitalist in the new mov "wolf of wall street." something he said about the rich capalis caught our gang's attenon. take a look. i feel like it's an accurate refltion of everything that is wrong with the world we live in today. the attitude of this character jordan belford is rectly attributed to the destrution of our economy, to, you know, you can attribute this attitude, the darker side of human nature to everything that has gone wrong in society. >> steve, you say that smacks of hollywood hypocrisy. how so? >> a cathouse madame preaching virtue. in hollywood the big news is a person wh isn't having hedonistic lifestyle. for them to denounce sin, that's rich. >> rick, y were out in hollywood. you were in sin city for a ile. what do you think of dicaprio? >> do i strike you as a hedonistic sort of a person?

>> you are a hedonistic wannabe, rick. >> look, mean, i have to be honest with you. this might disappoint you but peoplin hollywood are a little bit more normal than you would expect. i have friends on wall street that my hollood friends couldn't even keep up with, when it comes to hedonism. you take people as they come. i dot know dicaprio or how he lives his life. i'm not going to judge him. don't pin this on hollywood because they're an easy target. >> rich, the point is that what dicaprio is saying, all the bad tings i the world; particularl all the world that have happened in this country economically is because of capilism and they are paying this guy as a representave of our capitali stem. >> you know, i don't think he said that exactly. i think he was pointing out to the embodiment of the certain kind of a personho cheats the rules and so forth. look, i find myself in an odd position of being with rick on this one. i don't think there is any more hypocrisy in hlywood

than professnal sports or athletes out there using performan enhancing drugs or about this presidential administration where they lie about their healthca inittive. i don't think, i think human foibles sort of are spread evenly across professions. >> when you think of wha happened to this country over the last five or six years the economy slowing down. you have big business, granted you had shysters in big business but you had big government. what we did was a gallup poll that surveyed americans, americans by a 72%ajority think big government is a bigger threat to america than g business. >> let's not fget the governmen debauchery of the general services and administration scandal. the multiplier effect of government recklessness and debauchery ges on. prius tution scandal with congress -- prostitution scandal by congress and use of funds to go home or personal trips, trips to i have yesna

sna -- trips to barcelona. leonardo dicaprio talks about hedonism at all levels of society. he is saying there is no shame anymore. >> that may be so. but bill, whose side are you on? caprio's side or tt 72% ofmericans more worried about big govement than big business? >> i don't really consider leonardo dicaprio to be an expert on economic matters. okay? our economy is built around consumer. i. in terms of being self-indulgent hypocrites, there is no question that hollywood is pretty bad. but it's not as bad as politicians or media types. >> john, where do you stand on this? is dicaprio right or wrong? he has a point. i am a libertarian an my view is people should live as th nt so long as they don't make others pay for their lifestes. for me, far more corrosive to society is when a m is

living well is when people live off of others, including corporate bail-outs or crony capitalism like solyndra or individuals taking the hand-out from government. that is much, much worse than someone livingell and taking big fan trips and things like that. >> steve, i like theea of what emac and rich are getting at. there are terrible ills with big government. we have seen it with obamacare, et cetera. but thatoesn't exude the private sector entirely from e ills? >> no, david. you see human naturend all the glory going back thousands of years. in terms of big government, when it goes off the rail, crony capitalism, regulations that no one can understand, bureaucrats who can do whatever they want. that underminds the social trust as well. >> i don't think we are going to see solyndra the movie or solyndra the documentary anime soon. >> good point. rickpele are kind of agreeing with you interms of how there is a lot of bla to

go around. t why is there so much blame business when so americans think there should be more blame on big government? >> have i ever menoned how intelligent that rich karlgaard is? >> only when he agrees with you. >> only when he agrees with me. i don't think that is what dicaprio was saying. i don't think he was indicting capitalism. he was indicting excess. >> okay, rick, ld on. do you think we would ever see dicaprio star in a movie about soldra or some other government boondoggle? >> i can't imagine that is, as somebody who makes movie, i promise you there is not enough interest in solyndra to create a movie. really. you want to lay out a script on that? >> don't you think there is enough interest right now with the way government is? >> i think there is. >> i think there is. >> you had to put it there with the i.rs. pretending they are "star trek" characters. >> that has to be the last word. sorry. from barbara walters to the "wasngton post," what the main stream media is doing that could be tererrible news for president.

but great news for taxpayers in 2014. that ison "cashin' in" on the bottom of the hour. first, right here, did general motors ceo tell the taxpayers don't count on getting a single dime back of the $10.5 billion that was lost in the g.m. bail-out? we'll play tape and let you decid >> do you think that g.m. should repay the taxpayers that money directly

so we gave them a rescue. now they may giving us the you-know-what. this week, general motors ceo asked if g.m. should pay back the $10.5 billion that taxpayers lost if bail-out. here is the ceo dan akerson's answer. >> they took equity interest. they could have cast the bankruptcy differently and made low-interest loans for example. they didn't. they were taking a ride just like you do when you buy stocks. >> y, so john, is he right or should the taxpayers get paid back? >> that is obnoxious. g.m. should pay us back by filing for bankrucy. let me explain. when governments bail out businesses they rob the economy of recovery, because basically they are perpetuating failed biness practices at the expense of good ones. the realities of g.m. h been allowed to go bankrupt, it wouldn't have been been banishe. let them go. >> if they're selling cars like gangbusters now shouldn't they give us the profits?

we lent it to them. >> if we follow john's path, i similar not these with the argument we'd be -- sympathize with the arguments we'd screw shareholders. the dubious thing is putting the union people ahead of the bon holders. i hope that gets litigated in the future. >> mike, rich is saying grin and bear it. >> david, obama rigged this bail-out so the union workers - >> obama didn't do it. >> got paid 90 cents on the dollar. the bondholders only got 10 cents on the dollar. bondholders should be paid back. >> by the way, this did start under bush. >> it certainly did. it going to remind my good friend that was the case. >> the car czar appointed by obama. >> he was. but the bail-out already occurred. look for better or worse, what the president of g.m. is saying is correct. we d do it as an equity deal. it might have been smarter to

do part equity and part debt. we didn't do it. i'm still glad we did the bail-out. i know many of you disagrees but it saved a lot of people. >> should we get paid back or not? >> 're not going to get paid back and pol shouldn't involved in bankruptcies. they're already dog it to the government. >> what do you give mr. capitalism for christmas? stocks, of course. we give stocking stuffers toúp

we are back with the informers' stocking stuffing. we love this segment. will they like or return them? dynamic pharmaceutical. >> a great play onig pharma na i like this. >> take it or return it? >> i'm getting older and i need more of that uff. [ laughter ] >> great. >> bill baldwin you have a company making scented cappeddals and crock pots. >> things that people don't want at christmas but they sell really well. >> this may be a crock, b i'd take it. >> mike, you have a stinker of a stock. >> this is a great hedge against a weak dollar. >> a fertilizer stock. t we need that stuff, steve. you like it? >> i thin this fertilizer turns to coal. i'm return it for more of liz's drug stock. >> steve doesn't have his hat, santa hat. if you get a closeup on his tie, do that l later. it's a christmasy tie. at least he has it there. thankou, everybody for

joining us. have a very merry christmas. have a wonderful time this week. eric bolling and "shin' in" starting rit now. we are taking aim at the "duck dynasty" controversy. sponsors of the hit show sticking by phil robertson afer the controversial comment. is that a foul decisionor free market working like it should? plus -- [ ♪ hallelujah >> president obama the divine? >> we thought he would be, i shouldn't say this at christmas time but the next messiah. >> the in stream media doing an aboutface admitting it was blded by the aura of the man in the white house. the broken lies leading to this broken relationship. how love lost could mean freedom lost in 2014. duck for