ben, youave beenspot-on with te mergg growth thgs. guys, fantaic show. "cost of freedom" continues on the place for business: fox. ♪ ♪ don't get yrselves in trouble byeclaring it now. >> exactly. >> yeah. it did happen. >> rememberhat? obamacare nagators caught encouraging individuals to commit tax fraud, to get government subsidiaries. now a new house committee report is bashing the program for misconduct like that, along with poor training and iffy protections for consumers' very private inrmation. is it time to cast away the expensive taayer-funded navigators once and for al? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. happy holidays. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with steve forbes, mike ozanian, elizabeth macdonal john tandy and

rick unger. tame get rid of the navigators? >> of urse. thiss something the insurance companies dove day and they should have their employees do it. the bigger picture in defense is they a a symptom of the much-bigger problem which is the obama administration's obnious conceit it can create healthcare market out of thin air. the better answer is to repeal it. >> rick, john is f getng rid of them. but he is defending th >> i heard that. >> i heard that. >> john is right about one thing you said, the insurance brokers have people like this, who help customers figure out what the best policy is for them. that is all the navigators are doing. i look at the report from the house committee. it was ridiculous. they relie on data provided by james'keith, who by the way, while they are concerned about the criminal behavior, he is the only one who has been convicted of a misdemeanor and had to pay over six figures to settle a case. you know, this is a tempest in

the teapot. leave these people alone. they are trying to do something good. a lot of ways you can attack obamacare. thiss not the way to do it. >> they are doing it for a lot of mey. the starting pay is $20 an hour. it goes up to $48 an hour. $10000 a year. the question is how much bang for the buck they're getting. president left for hawaii on his vacation. he should know well they are 500 enrollees in the state of hawaii and they rceived $ 200 million for navigators and the means to get people enrolled. $410,0 pernrollee. >> this is turning in aostly jobs act. we have c't stop oversight of this. you heard it in the audio. navigators telling people how to under report income to get the tax subsidiaries. the health reform is turning in a crass act. i wish nancy pelosi had her own rsonal navigator to read the bi anand everybody else

coulgetheir navigators to read the bill to see the fall-out fr. this by the way, why can't we get a state xerox toner changer to do job to help people figure out health reform? andhe private markets doing it. have insurance companies and 800 hotlines to help out. >> navigator to get nancy pelosi to read it. ove it. bill, what do you think? timeo get rid of them? >> get rid of navigators because you don't like obamacare? that's like saying we don't like the way the way the government outlawed the ghways so outlaw google maps. life is complicated. insurance is colicated. government is complicated. you ne guides. the way you need guides to collect income taxes. how would we survive if we didn't have hr.b blocks? you -- h&r blocks? >> they are registered, college graduates a lot with c.p.a.s. you don't ed college education or even a criminal background eck asebelius told thus week in ont of a

committee. they have sensitive information, social secury numbers, tax returns. we want people who we know nothing about to have all the stuff? >> no. to say we can get it by other ans is not really the answer. these peoe are there becau of the incompetency of government. the more complex it become, the more peopl they have to hi. this is just more and more government bloat. to have easy access to that kind of information with no safeguards as you do shows the whole thing to scratcand start over. >> i wond here not do it in the private sector, mike? we are spenng $275million on the navigators. thse are navigators for the state system. >> obamacare is still a house of lies. ey should be chang to obama lies. you can keep your doctors, you said no. you can keep your plan, no. it's shopping on amazon, no. there won't be rationing. no. all lies.

the plan as johnpoints out should be town out and obterated. >> citing h&r ock as something that is a great thg because they have a cottage iustry to figure out that barbed wire pile of a tax code. that is the way health reform is. the fact that the individuals who we don't know when the don't have, they don't have the crimal background checks have access to personal identification information. a ince information from peop signing up. >> rick, doesn't it concern you? >> the h&r block was a great example. your response isnteresting. they are not register the tax preparers. many of them lkely don't have college degrees and you are giving them the same exact type of infortion. why haven you ever expressed concern about criminal back checks for people who are doing that? >> i would. in fact, before i would entitle them to my social security or my tax returns, i would make sure that they weren criminals or mising it. >> howo yo do that?

h&r block doesn't do it. >> by the way, i am an h&r block taxparer. they check in to it. >> whetr they are college educated or not is not the point. if h&r block employees misu private iormation, h&r block goes out of business. if th obamacare navigator misuse that information they will ge more funding. there is a big difference betwe goverent-driven entities and the private sector. >> bill you see that differce clearly, don't you? >> listen, the are crooked ta preparers out there. they go to jail. there are ways t deal with that. i'm not going to outlaw the industry because i don't like the tax code. i don't like it more th you . >> h&r block is a private compapany. they mess up you take them to court. the navigators are outof the handsf the citizens. wh they mess up, the citizen is just out of luck. >> isn't it easier to hide this bad behavior in a government bureaucracacy thann the private sector?

>> we have seen that when they testify before congress. they have been less than forthcoming. john is right in the private sector you are punied for doing illegal things or making mistakes. in government you are rewarded. rewarderred with more workers anmore funding. >> you are also more einitie the private sector. the private sectorame out with numbers like these, spending that much money on the few enrollees would ey be in existence? >> they would not. >> private sect is more eicient because if u are not,ou are put out of siness. business cannot exist without investment. if you misuse the capital they put you out of business. in gornment again, when you fal, you fail upward on the way to more funding f the failed ide. >> clearly you have seen that happen before, have you not in government? >> sure youave. i'll tell you what i find ally troubling. why are you all presuming bad behavior on the part of navigators? you have one bad ape. there are people who worked in

this building where we're sitting who were turned out to be ba apples. yo don't judge a class of people othat. >> let's turn a blind eyend throw more money down a rat hole. >> one bad guy. >> are talkingbout government funding here. taxpayer funded navigators here. why can't you get a state employee or government employee to do this job? we have seen this play out th the i.r.s., targeting political people that obama didn't like and the testimony in front of congress where they lied. >> so again you have sebelius in front of acommittee saying no, we don't have criminal ckgrounecks. and yes, a criminal could get through. there is a possibility. it's the lack ofthe checks and balances and the whole obamacare thing that bothers st people. >> yeah, when you have a pot of honey out there, the flies are goi tocome to it. when y haveve that information with no safeguards you know this is being hacked to kingdom come. more scandals to come. >> see where that takes us.

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the new movie "wolf of wall street." something he said about the rich capitalists cght our gang's atttion. take a look. >> i feel like it's an accurate reflection of everything that is wrong with the world we livein today. the attitude ofhis character jordan belford is direly attributed to the destruction of our economy, to, you know, you can attribute this attitude, the darker side of human ture to everything that has gone wrg in society. >> steve, you say that smacks of hollywood hypocrisy. how so? >> a cathouse madae preaching virtue. in hollywood the big news is a person who isn't having hedonistic lifestyle. for them to denounce sin, that's rich. >> rick, you were out in hoood. you were in sin city for a while. what do you thin of dicaprio? >> do i strike you as a hedonistic sort of a person?

>> you are a hedonistic wannabe, rick. >> look, i mean, i have to be honest with you. this might disappoint you but people in hollyod are a little bit morenormal than you would expect. i have friends on wall street that my hollywood friends couldn't even keep up with, when it comes to hedonism. you take ople as they come. i don't know dicaprio or how he lives his life. i'm not going to judge him. don't pin this on hollywood because they're an easy target. >> rich, the point is that what dicaprio is saying, all the bad things in the world; particularly, all the world that have happenedn this untry economically is because of capitalism an they are paying this guy as a representative oour capitalist system. >> you know, i don't think he said that exactly. i think he was pointing ou to the embodiment of the certain kind of a person who cheats the rules and so forth. look, i find myself in an odd position of bei with rick on this one. i don't think there is any more hypocrisyn hollywood

than professional sports or athletes out ere using performance enhancing drugs or about this presidential administration where they lie about their healthcare initiative. don't think, i think human foibles sort of are spread evenly across professions. >> when you think of what happened to this country over the last fiv or six years the economy slowing down. you have big business, granted you had shysters in big business but youad big governmen what we did was a gallup poll that surveyed americans, americanby a 72% mority think big government is a bigger threat to america than big business. >> let's not forget the government debauchery of the general servis and administration scandal. the multiplier effect of government recklessness and debauche goes on. prius tution scandal with coress -- prostitution scdal by congress and use of funds to go home or personal trips, trips i have yesna

yesna -- trips to barcelona. leonardo dicaprio talks about henism at all levels of society. he is saying there is no shame anymore. >> that may be so. but bill, whose side are you on? dicaprio's side or that 72% americans re worried about big government than big business? >> i dot really consider leonardo prio to be an expert on economic matters. okay? our econy i built around consume i. in terms ofbeing self-indulgent hocrites, there is no question that hollywd is pretty bad. but it's not a bad as politicians or media types. >> john, where do you stand on this? is dicaprio rit or wrong? >> he has a point. i am a libertarian andy view is people should live as they want so long as they don't make others pay for their lifestyles. for me, far more corrosive to society is when a man is

living well i when people live off of others, including corpore bail-outs or crony capitalism like solyna or individuals taking the hand-out from government. that isuch, much worse than someone living well and takg big fancy trips an this like that. >> steve, i like theidea of what emac and rich are getting at. there are terrible ills with big government. we have seen it with obamacare, et cetera. but that dsn't exclude the private sector entirely from the ill >> no, david. you see human nature and all the glory going back tousands of years. in ter of big government, when it goes off the rail, crony capitalism, regulations that no one nnderstand, bureaucratsho can do whatever they want. that underminds the social trusts well. >> i don't think are ing to see solyndra the movie or solyndra the documentary anytime soon. >> good point. rick, people are kind of agreeing with you in terms of how there is a lot of blame to

go around. but why is there so much blame on business when so americans think there should be more blame big goverent? >> have i ever mentioned how intelligent that rich karlgrd is? > only when he agrees with you. >> only when he agrees with me. i don't think that is what dicaprio was saying. i don't think he was indicting capitalism. he was indicting excess. >> okay, rick, hold on. do you think we would ever see dicaprio star in a movie about solyndra or some other government boondoggle? >> i can't imagine that is, as somebodwho makes movie, i promise y there is not enough interest in solyndra to create a movie. rely. yowant to lay out a script on that? >> don't you think there is enough interest right now with the way government is? >> i think there is. >> i think there is. >> you had to put it there with the i.r.s. pretending they are "star trek" characters. >> that has to be the last word. sorry. from barbaraters tohe "washington post," what the main stream media is doing that could be terrible news for present. but great ns for taxpayers

in 2014. that is on "chin' in" on the bottom of the hour. first, right here, did general moors ceo tell the taxpayers don't count on getting a single dime back of the $10.5 billionat was lost in th g.m. bail-out? we'll play tape and let you decide. >> do you think that g.m. ould repay the taxpaye that money directly? mine was earned orbiting the moon in 11. afghastan in 2009. on e u.s.s. saratoga in 1982. [ male announcer ] once it's earned, ua auto insuranc is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection

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so we gave them a rescue. now they may giving us the yonowhat. this week, general motors ceo asked if g.m. should pay back the $10 billion that taxpayers lost if bail-out. here is the ceo dan akern's answer. >> they took equity interest. thy could have cast the bankruptcy differently and made low-interest loans for example. they didn't. they were taking a ride just like you do when youuy stocks. >> boy, so john, is he right or should the taxpayers get paid back? that is obnoxious. g.m. should pay us back by filing for bankruptcy. let me explain. when governments bail out businesses they rob the economy of recovery, because basically they are perpetuating failed business practices at the expense of good ones. the realities of g.m. had been allowed to go bankrupt, it wouldn't have been been banishe. let them go. >> if they'rselling cars like gangbusters nthfi?

we lent it to them. >> if we foll john's path, i similar not these with the argument we'd be -- sympathize with the arguments we'd screw shareholders. the dubious thing is putting the union bond holders. i ho tt gets litigated in the future. >> mike, rich is saying grin and ear it. >> david, obama rged this il-out so the union workers -- >> obama didn't do it. >> got paid 90 cents onthe dollar. the bondholders only got 10 cents on the dollar. bondholders should be paid back. >> by the way, this did start under bush. >> it certainly did. it goin to remind my good friend that was the ca. >> the car czar appointedby obama. >> he was. but the bail-out already occurred. look for better or wse, what the president of g.m. is ying is correct. we did do it as an equy deal. it mightave been smarter to

do part equy and part debt. we didn't do it. i'm sll glad we d the il-out. i know many of you disagrees but it saved a lot of people. >> should we get paid back or not? >> we're not going to get paid back and politicians shouldn't involved in bankruptcies. they're already doing i to the government. >> what do you give r. capitalism for christmas? stocks, of course. [ male announcer ] if you're taking multiple medications,

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we are back with the informers' stocking stuffing. we love this segment. will they like or return them? dynamic pharmaceutical.

>> a greatlay on big pharma names. i like this. >> take it or return it? >> i'm getting older and i need more of that stuff. [ laughter ] >> great >> bill baldwin you have a company making scented cappeddals and crock po things that people don't want at christmas but they sell really well. >> this may be a crock, but i'd take it. >> mike, you have a stinker of a stock. >> this is a great hedge against a wk dollar. >> a fertilizer stock. but we need that stuff, steve. you like it? >> i think this fertilizer turns to coal. i'm return it for more of liz's drug stock. >> steve doesn't have his hat, santa hat. if you get a closeup on his tie, do that later. it's a christmasy tie. at least he hast there. thank you, everybody for joining us. have a very merry christmas. have a wonderful time this week. ic bolling and "cashin' in" starting right now.

>>we are taking aim at the "duck dynasty" controversy. sponsors of the hit show sticking by phil robertson after the controversial comnt. is that a foul decisiono free market working like it should? plus -- [ ♪ hallelujah >> president oma the divine? >> we thought hwould be, i shouldn't say thiat christmas time but the next messiah. >> the main stream mediaoing an aboutfe admitting it was blinded by the aura of the man in t white house. the broken lies leading to this broken retionship. how love lost could mean freedom lost in 2014. duck for