shoveling right now. >> freezing! have a great day, everybody. >> thanks, see you tomorrow. you're looking for a rebound, but will the health care law keep us down? the majorit of americans saying they're optimistic about the economy in 2014, yet the new year kicking off with more reports of health care premiums spiking. and costs on small businesses rising. so will the obamacare sticker shock have the economy flatlining? i'm brenda butn er, this is "bulls and bears." tracey smith, jonas max feras, along with chuck rocha. welcome to everybody. will the price spikes keep the economy from recovering? >> brenda, i don't see how it

can't. just some back of the envelope calculations. say you're a young person, 25, 27, you live in nashville, you earn $27,000 a year. you've just seen your premiums double! now, you add into that the deductible. of course, the part you pay before, you know, the insurance kicks in. those across the country have seen an average increase of 42%. so that same person, that young person that lives in nashville, they get sick in a year orthey happen to, you know, get some procedures done, they just saw an increase in their taxes, if you will, of 25%. i don't see, brenda, how that can't kill the economy? >> well, chuck, less money in people's pockets, doesn't that keep them from spending and hurt the economy? >> it reminds me of the old saying my granddaddy said, if you lie long enough about having a horse, eventually somebody will buy you a saddle. let's not talk about what you

may hear, let's talk about me. today i wrote a check to blue cross blue shield for $500. that's $275 less than i paid last month. i'm a small business wner, i have three blows, and i was having to buy my own personal insurance. that $300 now i can invest in the economy. i think it will actually help the economy, but that's the reason we have elections. if there are enough people who like all the reports are going to be murt by this, it will hard for democrats to get elected. we'll see what happens. >> you're a lucky man, chuck. hn, do you think that's the exception to the rule? >> yeah, look, before we start calling people liars, chuck, what if your granddad had to take a horse to a vet and the vet's health care was on some insurance program for the united states and your premiums either doubled or tripled like happens in memphis, california, 900,000 people are losing their insurance, two-thirds of those are not eligible for subsidies. these are not anecdotal exampl. >> my example is not anecdotal.

>> your example is one person, so it is anecdotal by the definition. the health care tax itself on the insurance companies is going to raise health care costs 3.7% annually. this thing is not cheap. this thing is going to cost a lot. it's going to be paid for by tax dollars. >> okay, tracy, just as we start spending, just as small business gets ready to hire, this kicks in, what's it mean? >> yeah, i think it's still the uncertainty. no one likes that word anymore, but it's still the unknown. we're still trying to figure it out. premiums are going up in 2014 and will continue to go up for the next five years or so. i don't know what that's going to cost. i don't know what that's going to do to me. to john's point, i have no idea what they are going to pass on to me, so we are in the same hamster on the wheel with the unknown coming out of the government. i don't know how to spend money because i think i'm going to need it to pay for something, but i don't knowat it is right now. and i think that's the

conversation going on in a lot of homes across the country right now. look, there are these one or two anecdotal examples that things are going really great and good for them that they win here, but so many other people lose. still so many unknowns, including whether or not our young people are going to sign up, brenda. >> that's a big if, jonas, what does that mean? >> well, okay, ook, first of all, thank god they didn't go up two years ago when the economy was uncertain. now we can hand it, so to say. gary is making a good point, you have to pay $100 as a young person that you were going to pay before if you chose that health insurance, butt is just $100 you won't spend on movies, beer, pplebee's, those businesses are going to get a hit. health care companies are going to be forced to diverge your money to, that's why health care stocks were the number one sector in s&p last year up almost 50%. coke wasn't up that much. all the other stocks were, because people are not going to spend less on anheuser-busch or whater or movies or more on

health insurance because you are told to. it's not really a tax, you're just getting your spending diverted from where you want to spend it on tv to health insurance. >> okay, gary v., you take that on. >> well, jonas makes that a good point. i don't think most people think of it that way. they don't think, oh, my gosh, listen, i get to spend less at the movies, but thank god etna gets to make more dough this year, like they need it. and getting back to chuck's point, i'm sure there are examples across the board. i think john's point, not that i'm mr. summary here, was that study after study has shown that if we take in all the data, both premiums and deductibles are going up. so, yes, you know, chuck might s nine other people that can tell their own story, like myself, for example. i couldn't find health care plans where the premium actually was a little bit lower than i'm paying now, but the flip side was the deductible was a lot higher! so my out-of-pocket by the end of the year, no matter which way

i went, was going to be a lot more for me and that's a lot less i can spend on other things, except enriching blue cross blue shield. >> right. and chuck, to tracy's point, she talked about uncertainty. so you got a better deal than gary b. did, we can talk about our own individual stories, but when you're uncertain about what your deal is going to be, and for most people, that's the truth, what does that do? >> well, people do want certainty and people want a voice in the process. and i think that goes back to the political argument. i'm a little nervous people knew the day i wrote the check to blue cross and blue shield and want to be clear about that point. my money didn't go to the government today. it went to a private insurance company who i pay all my bills to, and they're controlling the marketplace and giving people options. are there going to be spikes here and there? i don't have the answer and that's the uncertainty you're talking about and i would agree with some of the panelists to say that i don't think that the american public wants that. the main thing they didn't want

was a change to what they were happy with, and i will go along with this. >> john, is this going to the government? so many states said we don't want anything to do with this exchange, so the federal government has set them up. >> well, yeah, so many of the states, 35 out of the 5 states, roughly two-thirds of the states, sasaid they simply can' afford these exchanges. so it is going to go on to the burden of the government. when you talk about options and choices, you look at lamar alexander in nashville, 105 insurance plans were canceled that you had the availability for. your doctors are going to be limited, your interns are going to be limited, and we'll have what they have in europe. if you're rich, you'll afford the best health care in the world. you'll have a by-level system. if you are not rich where you can pay cash, go to the doctor to pay cash and see what kind of service you'll get. it's different. if you are not, you are limited on doctors, on hospitals and your wait time will be extwo ordinary like it is in europe. >> brenda, that's the bigger

uncertainty to me, not knowing whether or not my doctor will stay and be in the plan and do i have to move. we have been following this fabulous story how one woman goes to sign up her five kids, and the stupid system recorded them as illegal immigrants and they didn't even apply. meanwhile, the kids were all born in the united states, so the uncertainty of even registering on the website is still there. like there are so many unknowns. this has to somehow affect the economy going forward. >> that's going to behe last word, thanks, guys. ready, set, hike! running up the minimum wage, the new rage in 2014, but the caboodle on big business says it could sent job creators and workers into a real rage. find out why at the bottom of the hour. but up first, while americans are saving money, a top resolution, what's congress doing? doing? get ready for a $1 trillion dentures are very different to real teeth.

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jamie coy, more headlines 30 minutes away. back to "bulls and bears" on fox. more americans ringing in the new year with a top resolution to save money. this as congress is reportedly set to unveil a $1 trillion spending bill this week, but with the national debt topping $17 trillion, should coness take a cue from us? john? yes. look, i have a lot of faith in the american people. you look at what the american people household debt has done since 2008, it's gone from $12.5 trillion down to $11.3 trillion, down 10%. look at what the government debt

has done from 2008 to now, $2 trillion to $17.3 trillion. with the budget control bipartisan, they are all going against it or most of them are against it. before they even came out with a plan, the democrats, the republicans and the president denounced the plan the had never seen putting austety in place is going to take a politician with a backbone, that's something we don'have in washington, d.c. >> gary, here's the big difference, we spend and save our own money. congress spends and saves our own moy! taxpayers, not the own. >> exactly. brenda, to bring us back down to the family, heritage foundation came up with a great example. it's like your family, the way the government's run using current budget numbers, it's like you're a family that makes $52,000 a year, but instead you spend $64,000 a year, you put that $12,000 on credit. that makes sense. but you already have $312,000

existing debt out there! so it's just crazy. we're spending beyond our means, but we already have this pile out there, which is huge that we can't pay down! interest alone is going to sink us, not to mention all the other entitlements we have. brenda, it's nuttiness, but that's what happens as you elude to, you spend other people's money. >> well, blame goes to both sides of the aisle, jonas, but you're not so worried because gdp is growing. >> yesand i really don't have that much faith in the american consumer spending. my new year's resolution is to have kate moss, but i don't think it's going to happen this year. i actually expect consumers to spend more consumer growth in the government this year. it's not government spending, i would like to see discretion, i like the cut,however, the important thing is the gdp is growing faster than the total dealt.

if we do that forever, we'll have no debt some day. as long as we keep it going like last year,his year will be okay. >> chuck, i don't want to hear about your resolutions with models, but a trillion-dollar spending bill next week to avert another government shut down, is it worth it? >> so you kind of want to talk about this like it's about policy. i run campaigns with this, and this has everything to do with politics. the republicans learned an important lesson during the shutdown, they want to spin this election cycle talking about obamacare like this entire panel wants to. they don't want to be put back in a corner to talk about the shutdown, so they will break their promises and do what all politicians do and what they care about, which is money and votes. corporate america, they want to make sure their little piece is put in, but the american people will have their back turned on again. the debt will be thrust upon them. >> this is bipartisan avoid dance. both sides of the table do not want to cutback. sure, we have one or two voicing their opinions out there, but nobody has this defined to make

a difference. so this will continue to go on. we have printing presses, so long as we can come up with money from some pawner in the basement of the federal reserve, everything is st fine and dandy, meanwhile the dollar is worth crap out there. and our foreign brethren are going to take advantage of it, but nobody sees that. because chuck, chuck, to your pot, it's about the next election and the next vote. ifou get rid of the voting system and the way we elect our officials, maybe then you start to see resolvement here. >> okay, john? >> butch calls the biblical flood and the bubonic plague. that's the biggest garbage i have heard. bipartisan in wrong, these guys need to get congress, they all want to get rereelected and to get re-elected is not tolame the other party. >> we are kind of responsible for that, too, gary b. >> between chuck and jonas, there's a point to be made. a ten chances of jonas being

with kate moss are better right now than the government not spending the money! chuck's right, it's built into the system. the only way we're going to ever change is if we have a crisis, like greece, like canada was, canada managed to change. until then, i'm betting on the jonas/kate moss thing. >> i know jonas' wife, he would be dead and buried before that happened. forget that. >> and she's prettier than kate moss anyway. thanksguys. you want that flyer next to you pipe down? no problem, just pony up. ♪ [ male announ] this is the story of the lile room over the pizza place at 315 cnut street.

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if in-flight calls are cleared for takeoff, did flyers just give airlines a green light to charge them even more? because the majority of passengers say they would shell out extra cash to sit in quiet zones away from the cell phone yappers. tracy, is this the next airline fee? >> yeah, it probably is. and i'm just darn sick of them all. i'm not paying another fee, brenda. it's annoying how we are nickel and dimed just to go see grandma. and we have ceos coming out to say i don't care if it's okay, we are still not dng it. nobody wants to sit on a plane to listen to a rude yapper on the phone. and i certainly shouldn't have to pay more money to get a little quiet time. >>gary, the whole delta thing, doesn't that just say let the market decide if you want to go on a plane that has a cell phone quiet zone or not, you can

decide. >> exactly. i think the airline should feel free to charge whatever they nt. when did they become -- i understand tracy's point, but when did airlines become public utilities? there's a lot of things i don't like. i don't like going to the supermarket to walk to the back of the store to get the milk. i don't like to go to the movie theater to pay an arm and a leg for popcorn, but that's what they do. i can choose not to go to the supermarket and not buy the milk. tracy, if you don't like the airline ticket, take a bus or take a different airline that doesn't do that. look, this is the free market. th are not public utilities out there. they should do what they want, otherwise they all go out of business and we have government-run airline like they run out of the kremlin or something. >> jos, you pay to take ramon, your dog, on the airplane, why not pay to talk on your cell phone, too? those riffraffs can't afford a dog on the plane. the business model of air travel has become to put you in an uncomfortable position a make you pay to get out of it. you got a bag, you don't want to

lift it up, you pay for this. it makes perfect sense to pay for this. the question is, do we charge the caller to use the power of the plane, or do we charge someone to get privacy from the yapper? one way or another, there's no free talking from your cell phone on air travel. that's not going to happen, i decree. >> chuck, are you feed up about this? >> oh, man, i could talk about this for a while. this is an issue that i think is all across the board democrats, republicans, independents, people hate that rude person at your holiday party who we just got done dealing with, now you have to sit next to them the whole time on the airplane? sure, the airlines are allowed to do what they want to do, but the smart aspect would be the airlines like delta who say you don't have to sit next to your rude cousin or the 13-year-old girl talking to her best friend for three hours. we have special seats for them and they are on the wing. >> all right. john, nobody travels more on airplanes on this panel than you do, what do you think. >> look, to gary b.'s point,

this is a matter of health. we don't allow smoking on airplanes as a matter of my health. we don't allow people, especially loud drks, talking on cell phones for their health, because i promise you, i'm going to stick that phone in somebody's ear and they are not going to like me very much. this is disaster. as orville and wilbur have flown, the airlines have lost money. >> if they have to nickel and dime us with fees to come to so sort of profit at the end of the day, they need to rethink the entire thing. because beating people to death is not the answer. >> gary b., you have 20 seconds. >> they have company that is do different things. that's how you got virgin airlines, that's how you got people's express at one time, that's how you get spirit airlines. airlines come up with alternatives, that's the beauty of it! that's got to be it. thanks, guys. and thank you to chuck for joining us, we appreciateit. so, couples saying "i do" then saying "i don't" to sharing

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precincts, gary b. is up. >> brenda, it's a little cold out there. >> really? >> i think that's good for torottc. it's up 25%. >> i'm a snow blower man.

>> john, your prediction? >> home heating bills up. make money off overall energy. esv, up 20% in one year. >> i like the stock. i think he's aggressive on the rise. >> tracy? >> 2013 saw cool trends. separate checking accounts for married couples. people are getting married later and come with money to the table. plus, everyone learns how to manage their own money at the end of the day. and god forbid those who split. >> gary b., you've had a long marriage, do you he two separate checking accounts? >> the key to a long marriage is being a team and having the same account. >> jonas, your prediction, please. >> colorado just became america's amsterdam withegal marijuana, and i say it's going to becom a tourist attraction. who has a hub in denver? southwest airlines. up 20% in the year. >> john, what do you think? >> i really like kate moss.

>> never going to get her a southwest flight. coming up next, kate moss cavuto on business. thinking about calling a doctor on obamacare, how about calling a ceo? hi, everyone. from the oval office to the corner office, according to reports, some of the president's closest allies are urging him to hire a ceo to run obamacare. in a center for american progress founded by the president's own adviser, john podesta, so far the white house isn't biting, but is this proof to private market and not uncle sam should be in charge of health care in america. we have charlie gasparino here along with dana. >> it would be