much. john: at the wealth gap is getting worse. >> this is the defining challenge of our time. >> the rich are getting richer. the other percentage of people are left to suffer. john: you suffer because these people make morehan you? and government can force more quality. and every one of these is run by

democrats. >> equality versus liberty. john: and that is our show tonight. ♪ ♪ >> now it is time for john stossel. john:ome will be more successful than others. maybe they are smarter or they wo harder or they re just luckier. whatever the reason in the global economy, that success kids magnified. micha jordan has made much more money because he could do things like sell these t-shirts in china. because of the free market, globalization and new technology, a result is growing inequality. it has been viewed at least 13 million times. >> the poorest americans don't even reister in it they are

down to pocket change. the top two to 5% are actually off the chart. the income inequality has gotten worse and the reason is a ceo makes 400 times what the average worker makes.

and what you are talking about, when it comes to corporations whether it's wal-mart or mcdonald'down thelist, the top echelon of the corporate world makes it exceedingly larger amount of money than workers do. and microsoft made it a good wage. and you have been doing all the

business with china all the time,. john: it is true that we have a big gap between rich and poor. those of us resist to squeeze this down apparently in england in 1990 and you were part of the british parliament. and margaret thatcher is reonding to your argument. >> i agree with her and the point is that rather than having a big gap we should all be together. >> selects talk about this in terms of the ry poor and the very welthy.

and you can't makeit on $7 and 25 cents an hour. fifteen dollars an hour is a fair minimum wage. and there has not been a study produced that indicates this. mcdonald's talks about that and that is wrong. and it is just not right. raising the minimum wage cost people jobs is what they say and

it does not. >> but isn't it logical that if it cost more and you will get a little bit less of a? john: well, what do you think? >> nobody, but nobody can live on that. they work 60 or 70 hours a week and you cannot expect them to live on this income is especially when the o is making 500 o600 times and ou think anyone is worth that kind of money? do you think any ceo is what that? john: i'm grossed out by it. but if the markets as they are committee must be. because somebody is voluntarily paying them. >> the board of is usually appointed by a ceo. john: i say the most importan thing is individual liberty.

and if we are free, there will be inequality. and the important thing is the quality. people born poor don't necessarily stay poor. most gradually move up and here is part of a videomade by the institute for hane studies. >> when you look at households in the bottom quintile, we see about 45% of them have moved up to higher quintile. about 42% in1987 had fallen to a lower quintile by 1993. there's a lot of truth to that in a good economy if you look at the most robust economic history and if you look worldwide, a lot of countries rose out of poverty. and w are talking about gross

inequality betweenhose at the top who have rigged the system to make more money than those that workfor them and that i the problem. that is not free-market capitalism. that is cronyism at its worst. john: crony capitalisis wrong and we agree on that. >> no way, you know, i was under

communism in my early years. >> income inequality her nobody unle the inequality came about through frau or something like that. hn: is a nominal gross that some people have so much mor?

and every year, over and over again. and so you get people out there that just set things right and manage everything. it is what we called the fatal conceit. and it is fatal and they talk a good game. but they do not dliver anything nearly as good as they sound.

john: you cite an example in england. there is a guy that is going to stop the rich from enjoying their privilege. >> i jumped in the water when this was going on. he thought there was an elitist contest. >> the poor are now poorer.

>> the smell that? >> fresh-baked pie from the oven. you like it? john: in zero-sum game, the rest of us have less. >> it is not a zero-sum game. they get rich. >> i don't think a lot of people understand that. >> they don't get it. adam smith made himself famous by showing tt the cono is not a zersum game. but that both sides believe they gayness or exchange. >> these people tend to think that they know better.

>> thank you. if you'd like to keep this conversation going, go on facebook and twitter and use that hah tag class warfare and let people know what you think. and coming up, how much money does anyone need? many americans hate rich businessmen. but they really hate celebrities on the red carpet. those that are just as rich. >> is the untrendy mind that they make millions of dollars? welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your at rate shipping. fedex one rate.

really makes my life easier. maybe a promotion is in order. good news. i got a new title. and a raise? managementouldn't make that happen. [ male announcer ] introducing fedex oneate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex.

>> maria charcot but is the biggest earning female athlete in the entire world. 23 million in endorsements. john: does it bother you that she took home more? she makes the most money because she is a good-looking blonde. how unfair is that?

and they accept that movie stars and singers make movies to. >> the mony that they make millions of dollars? >> it doesn't occur tome. >> does it bother you that tiger woods made $70 million? >> it doest bother me. >> does it bother you that some ceos ma aliens when others don't? >> yes. i think people should be treated as equal. >> what is that other people when they are okay with beyoncé or tiger woods being rich? >> we have tried to understand how the things tey do are part

of this. why did he make more than anyone else? he is showing up nine to five just like me. so you don't get that same connection. and we are changing the incentives. people and the economy are making money as eyre doing something productive.

and if you are worth $100 million a year, therere ara lot of people out there. john: i have some chunky monkey ice cream here. they said on their website during the occupied wall street, existing between classes is immoral. and they said that they would pay their executives no more than five times what they pay the lowest paid worker.

and i'm gong to adopt a message for doing that instead of going and trying to do productive things and that is something that we need to avoid. john: i do think it is hilarious golf, tennis, basketball, football, soccer. it's well distributed. making millions of dollars. >> even when there is some outraged and we are focusing on

this misunderstanding of where this wealth comes from. john: the nba and nfl the nfl have the salary caps. and it's interesting. and it's a little bit less competitive than football. and then in baseball you don't have things like the patriots or the denver broncos were the pittsbur stelers. and it's not a cure-all and there are always ways around it. and there are companies that are trying to make money all the way around. john: coming up, what is fair and hy are we talking about

money? is it fair that he's good-looking or 6-foot four and inches? it doesn't seem fair to me that i was the shortest kid in middle school. i got kicked off and when it comes to inequality, government intervention is part of the problem. because government subsidizes rich peoplenow. problem. because government subsidizes [ me announcer ] this is the story of the dusty basement at 06 35th streetet the old dining table at 25th and hoffman. ...and the little room above the strip mall f roble avenue. ♪ this magic momt it is the story of where every great idea begins. and of those o believed they had the power to do more. dell is honored to be pa of some of the world'great stories. that began much the same w ours did.

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if there's sothing that creates more job nd ows more businesses... we're open to it. start a tax-free business at startup-ny.com. john: there is one thing of the like our government to do to reduce income inequality. the wa sreet journal economics professor senior economics writer steven moore proposes something they called the billionaires' subsidy elimination act. what do you mean? >> we found and there is between 100 and $200 billion of our money that goes to

peopl who make over 1 billion or companies with profits over $1 billion a week give up with a proposal. why don't we capped the government subsidies to people who make less than $1 billion a? do millionaires and billiaires really anybody from the government? john: no. a and senator tom colbert because they're rich and famous? >> let me start with an uneasy one. think about social security and medicare you think of benefits that go to seniors was load, but everybody over the age as 65 gets medicare and social security including bill gates or warren buffett. do they really need a check every month from the federal government? john: at least those go to everybody. >> the tr. but running $800 billion deficits per year can you afford to send delegate a

check? also we have farm programs a classic example. if you have been in coat hundred $50,000 per to with the farmers do? they defied their farm among the sister or though wife each one gets an end to $50,000. when you combine that they will get $10 million but. john: another scheme is flood insurance. >> are you really a beneficiary of the program? [laughter] did you send the check back? >> i built on the edge because i was guaranteed a could not lose. it is insane but congress brags about it and the government spends your money to advertise it. >> we help you protect your home. >> the oflood insurance program at its peak at

5.5 million vers. john: when she said that it was $90 billion know it is $30 billion in the red. people say i did not plan their hurricane i did not know t river would flood. we need to help these people. what is wrong with that? >> people that are even richer than you. those wh beachfront property hall or those of the west coast. >> for those of malibu beach john: in the kennedy family has the nuys cmpound. >> why should taxpayers paid to rebuild their homes? it is called the moral hazard program. we encourage people to overbuilt on the river bet or beach front property because if there is a big storm guess who will russian? the taxyer to pay for the

rebuilding. i have a problem with that. john: i do to. i apologize. [laughter] i will not take your money again it will not be insured by the government. government offers subsidies to tse that invest in green energy like windmills. like the wind farm in texas and also if you install solar panels. >> for instance to invest in solar energy in your home we have tax credits. >> it is a playpen of the rich and famous. when you look at homes in america of with solar panels there are people in beverly hills and of the richest areas with the biggt holmes did here again we have a subsidy that moseley goes to millionaires and billionaires. demeaned investor was g. you probably saw the story a few years ago that they in essentially paid no

corporate income-tax. how can one of america's most profitable company paid no corporate income tax? because they take advantage of a lot of the corporate loopholes like the slar and wind a subsidy. john: itis a tax credit but if you don't make $40,000 a yr you don't benefit. >>hat's the point. john: if we got rid of all of these? >> about tueber did billion dollars per year -- $200 billion per year i would be more fair. john: to macon and, more equal? most americans say raise minimum wage. that is what these protesters want. ♪

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john: unions and fast-food

workers have been holding raise the minimum wage protests. >> i need to be able to support my family. john: i want her to support her family and 66 percent of americans want the minimum wage raise. valdez protestors say i could be $15? some people told me it ought to be more. >> $20? just make it 20 then companies can go from there. >> for the moment obama said just wants to dollars and $0.10. it is hard to live on $7.25 so who opposes a raise? this woman does gingrich benjamin worksfor a the

thin tank the most fertile you want $10? >> it is a great start. washington state has the minimum-wage and their economy is no worse than ours so yes. it is great. john: what is wrong with that? >> that is washington state. we need t let compani decide what it is correct. john: you made a comment that it is good to raise the wage to attend and wine at 100? >> exactly. at its very core hiking the minimum wage distorts the marketplace to dictate it is a governmentictating to business what is the correct wage. that is a dangerous and slippery slope. why not raise it at $1 >> some people had their way especially corporations than why not those zero?

john: no minimum-wage. >> have people volunteer. john: why not? if people want to miss. >> we don't land pay raise to the bottom. we want a robust middle-class in order for that to happen we have to pay folks on the order of $10 per hour. so then why noon the low end? john: if government can artificially make government better off then why are you so cheap? >> $100 is the extreme that would not work. john: bob beckel said there is no study that shows it will raise unemployment i begin by half to pay more i will automate or hire fewer people. >> all economists agree there is a cost. everyone agrees. but the question is whether or not is worth the benefit. >> we go whether the mininimum wage will cost jobs.

we told think it will. but if you paid folks mo they will consume there is a multiplier defect. they will be purchasers and consumers of procts that is necessary. studies have shown if you pay a minimum wage that as $50 billion to the economy. >> that is not true. you are hiking the price of food. john: you deny of higher minimum wage will take away some jobs? >> no. how do we know th? costco pays a fair wage. >> that is costco. john: the federal reserve and california irvine found 85 percent of the studies show minimum-wage cause whose job loss. i have to pay people more i will hire less. >> more salient studies show low income people who made more -- make more money put

that back into the economy. john: that's true. >> so they have a $15 hamburger. th is with a blunt. john: you used to make minimum wage? >> i feel this from a personal level and what got out was not increasing the minimumage but getting the edation. the fact is putting a minimum wage at unsustainable levels basically perpetuates the cycle of pverty. john: so let me hit you with the question from the senator kennedy's. >> do you have such distin for hard-working americans? >> did he ever work on minimuwage? i don't think so. he came from prilege. >>e can boost educational opportunity. >> artificially high king

said minimum wage causes students to drop long-term education. they get attracted to the ad jobs in the short term but long term they sacrifice their potential. why would you incentivize that? >> then let's make it $00? you could make the opposite -- opposite argument to say $0. >> only 5% are paid minimum wage. 95% don't need the rule and if adults wnt to work at $2 then why can't we be free to do that? >> why can't we be free to let children work or that? because we the government to help us along a to what is equitable. john: what about clean-air?

if the kids are not slaves and they want to work people have free choice. >> zaph 5% is the important 5% we look out for those there is no reason why we can look at the 5% better earning the minimum wage. >> the defeatist mentality is there is a culpability on of the 5% and basically you are incentivizing people rather than work up the ladder you shave off the bottom rungs by hiking the standard for everyone's been a this is america, it will adst and all the chickens falling argument never bear out each time we rse it. >> it is government creep. it islear. [laughter] john: talk abo inequality between the four in the rich. what is rich?

>> to be rich i should be what super poligrip does for me is it keeps the food out. before those little pieces would get in between my dentures and my gum and it was uncomfortable. [ male announcer ] just a few dabs is clinically proven to seal out more food particles. corrine ] super poligrip is part of my life now.

john: are you rich? what would it take for you

to think of yourself as rich >> 100,000. >> 1 million. >> for to thousand. >> $1 millioto seven different concepts no one in times square said they were rich but most were to wrist to spend a lot of money just to be in new york city. so what does that mean in america? who better to ask the and dave ramsey whose figures talking to people and you say americans are richer they and they know? >> if your household income is $34,000 per year or more your in the to 1 percent of income earners in the world. by definition most of us are rich. john: what engrosses some oe opt is that some are so much richer than others. >> i spent my life to helping people with money and i want to see people live in but i have gured out that everybody will not

be tiger woods. not everybody will be paid to manning. john: would it be better for america if governments would level the playing field to bring the rich closer? >> if we decide with moral outrage to react to the unfairness the only answer is a loss of freedom. freedom liberty are chaotic but they give the little man the best opportunity to win. socialism and communism told this whole discussion is a precursor to moving us toward socialism and debris from freedom. john: the wealth gap is socialism. >> artificially. taking from the rich in the robin hood kind of way because we said the ameran-led does not work. the game is rigged i have a relative that says it is the

corporation's. it is the corporation's. like they are a bogyman. warren buffett, oprah, tyler perry, bill gates started with nothing. seven of 10 started with nothing. so the idea it is readying you canno win that is where i have a probm with our present and because he says he does not believe in freedom or capitalism but what he really says bill whole philosophical argument is we have to move to government intervention to prevent this unfairness. john: lecter household said, americans have gotten richer. seven and a $50 t in today's dollars that is 20,000. 1947, 31,000. today it is 62,000. >> my first year out of college and 80,000 and three years jittery to of hundred

50,000 an extra 96,000. do you know, whosefault that was? mmight. every one of those was my fault. i am in the environment and i believed but it is not a crisis of inequality but a crisis of belief we can go into the marketplace to bring in an end to resell them the ithey cannot succeed resell them that socialism is the answer. john: i had to parents. i could go to a good high school. many people have a harder start. >> absolutely. people start from different places we all have different sets of challenges. ago on twitter got angry with me. you don't understand you started with the advantage. the young man working for me african-american making a lot of money who grew up in a single mom hall in the

projects. this is ridiculous the ada you cannot win in the marketplace. you can nd plenty of excuses for you have great care. i am vault. it is not the distribution of hair. john: thank you dave ramsey. what is fair? is about money? i say it is unfair i got picked on one item was a kid because i was extra small. i wanted government program to potect the late bloomers. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really liking your flatrate shipping. fedex one rate. really makes my life easier. maybe a promotion is in order. good news. i got a new title. and a raise? management couldn't make that happen. [ male announcer ] introducing fedex one rate.

simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. open tinnovation. open to ambition. open to boldids. that's why n york has a new plan -- dozens of tax free zones all across the state. move here, expand her or start new business here and pay no taxes for t years... we're new york. if there's something that creas more jobs, and ows more businesses... we're open tit. start a tax-free business at startup-ny.com

john: these people are rich. many are multimillionaire's but yet they smile and pose of the red carpet. others struggle. how is that fair? and the gap keeps increasing today the richest 1 percent of americans own one-third americans wealth. 1% own a 35%. that just is not right. there is a reason for the minimum wage protest. a reason for occupy wall street. of course, and that sign is

absurdly did i percnt of americans are not fr but in a rich country what is fair? the author of the new book, the baby boom expanded my concept. freedom is not fair. i have a 13 year-old daughter all i hear is it's not fair. it's not fair. i say you were cute. that's not fair. your smart. that's not fair. you were born in the united states. that's not fair. you better get down on your needs that the install srt getting fair for you. good point. the movie stars are not all be rich but they have other advantages. jennifer lawrence is pretty but talented. george clooney is more smootheand better looking than i am. what is wrong with that? i want to be a professional basketball player it is a fairly broad james is stronger and moreskilled and a better player. does not my fault that i matured today to supply was

tiny in school and i was picked on because i had a of lile kid voice and everybody else's had change. that was definitely not fair. may be amican ad needs the handicapped general. a government official like a surgeon general or attorney-general to make sure that no one has the unfair advantage over anyone else. >> even when beautiful there wear a mask in situations where the duty could be too distracting. john: the idea of redistributing iome seems more asonable especially when some americans are so rich. but the truth is the fate of most of the report does not depend on government. the world's best poverty fighter is free-market capitalist.

capitalism is held in contempt of universities but caitalism allows llions of people li themselves out of poverty. fools and the media say capitalism serves the rich at the expense of the pork. that is not true. and everyone is free to trade the free markets get more people the power to prosper. the markets are the big equalizer. money does not care if you're black or white or brown. the people at the bottom need capitalism most of the paial free market is why even as poverty programs fail poor people in america don't suffer the with the poor suffer in most of the world. in america en those at the bottom of the latter do pretty well. of one of our health problems is obesity. you kw, you live in a good place when one of the biggest problems is we are too fat. free-market capitalism does allow someeople to get much richer than others but that's okay.

inequality may seem unfair but the alternative is government force that leaves everyone for. th's our show. see you next week. see you next week. jeff: jeff flock here. >> this week on across america, we go kayaking and fishing with onof t wealthiest and most successful women in america. >> we take an inside look at america's most storied office furnituremaker. what happens when a 300 pound person sits o a miller chair for three years? this machine is finding out. we unveiled the newest and fanciest outlet mall inmerica and get the wisdom of the visionary who started building it in the worst recession in