>> am, quick thoughts? >> i'm no charles payne but these are expensive. i prefer the les expensive one, charles. >> maybe ty are expensive for a no? >>aybe. >> little chuckle. i like that. we'll continue. a new irs mess. now the mess over how the person leading the investigation, the irs targeting conservatives actually donated thousands of dollars to the obama campaign. the agency's new chief is asking for more of your dollars. why? well to enforce the health care law, of course and the tax man already getting $1.3 billion bucks in extra funding for obamacare. apparently that's not enough. so does the irs dserve more of your money or not? hi, everybody, happy weekend. let's go in focus th mr. steve

forbes, rich, elizabeth, mike, rick and joining us for the first time steve. good to see you. all right. >> the tasy inspector general just last august found $67 million in money missing at the irs that was meant to enforce heah carereform. that was about 15% of the irs's budget for health care reform at that time. we know the health reform bill is loaded with 46 new taxes and new demands on the irs. the irs aocate says the tax code is designedo entrap. we get it. the irs itself as a steward of taxpayer money has not performed so great when the gao has audited the irs. >> nobody knows the irs better than she. she also uncovered this video or brought it to our attention the

video of the irs people starring in "star trek" uniforms, i mean we don't want to spend our tax money for more of this junk, do we? >> no. but i think that's really getting off the point. we need to be more fair and balanced here. yes part of this money they are asking for will go the job congress gave them which is enforcing the health care law, but that's not the sole reason. congress has been cutting the irs budget for years. we all kow this. it's a terrific way for the republican controlled house to make it harder for them to elect -- >> not cutting the budget for the irs for years. >> really? >> your fas are wrong. go ahead. >> i disagree. they have, in fact, been cutting the budget. >> no, they haven't. >> we know request. that's number one. u have to have mey to collect money. we asked them to go out there and do that job. they didt decide to go out there and enforce health care. that's the role congress gave

them. to take shots at the health care reform law tough this belies the point. >> steve forbes, the point is that this is an agency which very recently has been found or at least accused of using its power for political purposes. of course the investigator of that we don't know if we'll ever get to the boom of it because she's an obama donor big time. again, there's just too many questions about this agency before we go about funding it more. >> yeah, they should have set up a new agency if they are going to set up a new law. what's tre for the irs to enforce. evy day the administration changes the law willy-nilly. the idea if you give the irs more money they will collect more money? at's like those multiplier laws they passed. no miper effect. waste of money. get a new agency, start over. >> steve, it's not aevenue enhancer. it is an enforcer. this is an enforceme agency

and you judge an agency on the basis of whether it's doing good work or not and a lot of americans would say it's not. >> the thing is the irs is the government revenueengine. it's a revenue maker. everything else is a revenue taker. if they can prove more money they can get a better return on that investment and make money for the government i think give it a shot. there's a new commissioner. cleaning up the problems they had with evething last year. fresh start. let's give them the money to do their job and make more money for the government. >> mike, we have seen how they have used that money improperly. r political purposes or that's what it's accused of doing. >> i find this whole notion absurd of why they want money. basically what they are saying is we want to take more money from taxpayers to fund an agency that's going to then use that money to take even more money from taxpayers to fund the law that most taxpayers don't want. the whole thing is absurd. >> rich, is it a reasonable

request or not fromhe new commissioner? >> you know, i have some sympathy for the new commissioner. he's tasked by congress as rick pointed out to do these things. the problem isn't the new commissioner, the problem is the complexity of the tax code and the complexity and ev changing nature of obamacare. that is the outrage. as steve forbes likes to point out, the federal tax code is the leth of seven or eight holy bibles. nobody knows what's really in it. every time you fill out the tax return you don't know if you're breaking the law. we need radical tax simplification, previo preferabt tax rate. >> it's become an entrapment agency, something wrong with that >> she said the tax code is signed to entrap. that's right. listen, i get it. i understand the arguments for

and against the irs. i'm talking about the irs purely as a tax collector itself and that's the problem. the irs needs to just be a tax collector. when you have a congress putting policy on it and policy enforcement on it -- hang on, rick. you dragged the irs into the politics. i've studied the irs for 20 years. i take irs agents out and socialize. they tell me they do not want to be involved in enforcing political policies that, you know, basically dgs the irs which is supposed to be a pure tax collect jobs a cop on the beat into beating up taxpayers for political reasons. >> rick, you have to admit this investigation is going nowhere. none of the groups targeted by the irs, these tea party groups have been investigated by the fbi. they haven't been knocking on the door. internally the irs woman involved with it was a big obama supporter. do you have confidence in that? >> it's not even a question of confidence. i think it was a stupid thi to appoinher to do the investigation for all the

reasons we're sitting here and talking about. no, i don't support that. we keep getting away from the point. the point is supposed to be does the irs deserve a reasonable budget to get their job done. again, liz went back to all the problems of the irs doing its job. they didn't ask for this job, congress gave them this job, why are you going to punish them in the process of doing the best job they cando. >> $11 billion a lot of money when agents tell me yes we can do it, we put in computer systems that don't talk to each otr. >> steve forbes, the thing is americans are looking at the irs a little different. nobody likes to pay their taxes. on the other hand, now they are much me of an enforcement agency. they got a badge underneath thr lapel. that's kind of scary. they may not be asking for this but with that new role do they deserve new money? >> no. we saw a little over a year ago, two years ago t abuses within the irs which still haven't been

addressed and the fact that the tax code is now something as liz says is entrapment they can interpret it anyway they want. that's frightening. to give this agency access to information about our health, most intimate personal information as part of enforcement, no way. >> steve, this s always been an agencyf which you were always guilty until proven innocent unlike most of the legal code of the united states they can close down that business before that business has been accused and proven of doing a wrongdoing. >> we need the irs. if you like the health care law, hate it, it's the law of the land and they have to do their job and eorce it. if you're going to do it, do it right, give them the funding they need. let's have a new irs and give them what they ned. >> rich, what about that? it's the law. >> well, it is and the law is bad. we simply have to get to a

radical simple tax structure. >> mike, the law, i was actually referring to was obamacare that's the law that the irs has to enforce that's taken it beyond what anybody dreamed it would do. >> that's the whole problem. you know, if the esident had not lied to the country for so long, david, there was a good chance this law would not have been pased. we have to go back to where we were before this law was passed and get rid of a lot of these problems. >> coming up next, rolling stone mane telling the young and reless to fight for guaranteed work from the government but would that guarantee high unemployment for everyone? comi

at 1:00 p.m. eastern in america's news headquarters. sending you back now to "forbes on fox." a guaranteed job. yesterday's jobs report showing a huge 15.9% unemployment rate for young americans when you include the number who stopped looking for work all tother but fear not, the current issue of "rolling stone" magazine has an answer for millnials and here's their number one reform. the magazine want millennials to fight for. arroganted work fork everyone. steve forbes says history shows

it doesn'twork. let me show first what rolling stone says. imagine a world where people could contribute the skills that inspire them rather than telemarketing or whatever other stupid tankses bosses need do. the ussr constitution says citizens of the ussr have the right network including the right to choose their type of profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities and training and ecation. do you see any difference? >> this guarantees stagnation. there was a saying in soviet union we pretend to work, they pretend to pay us. you don't have productive work you don't have a higher standard of living. people and economy stagnate. >> steve, the soviets tried it for 70 years and it didn't work. why does the rolling stone think it will this time? >> i don't know what they are

thinking. it sounds deteriorate. looks good on paper. in the real world, what are these jobs and where is the money coming from. >> you have an idea for a real world. >> what if the government maybe after high school or college you have a year stipend and do volunteer, get out of that high school, college bubble and help the community and get education in real life for a year and then go on. you can't do it guaranteed for a lifetime but like israel and south korea have its military service why can't we have a one year volunteer service for people making that transition. >> ch, we have to do something. we have something called the misery index. it's a combination of things. youth unemployment. college loan debt figures and each person's share of the national debt. we've been tracking this since the '90s. it's gone up to 98.6. this is a record high. we got to do something. >>e have to do something.

steve's idea is worth experimenting with, a lower form of government than the federal government. why not try it at the state level and see what happens? there's so many reforms that w have to have. we have to stop punishing employs, particularly blue collar employers who in the energy extraction industries, transportation industries, these are under the thumb of so many regulations it makes them hard to employ people with high school education. >> you have something similar to steve. i don't think we'll find any is "rolling stone"/ussr plan. >> we talked a lot about infrastructure spending and how we need that. if you can get past these crooked state capitals that might be a good way to do it. and stop the duplication and waste in the welfare state and government. zap the president's stimulus an and just do a full board fixing the bridges and roads. list jerngs i'm not about it

takes a government village to fix the economy, this idea that the gornment can sell magic beans or fairness, statcontlled of out comes. it's never worked. david, you see it in china and india, they are moving away from those kinds of economic theories. >> john, i'm wondering what the millennials will go for. they got a choice. they can either look what's been done in the past six years,ee if bigger government has helped and clearly it hasn't and maybe they should say try something different or go all in like the "rolling stone" suggests. what do you think they will choose? >> if we want every american to have a job let's abolish computers, atm machines and tractors. everybody will b working and innsely poor. but back in the la of the sane if you want good jobs you need to match them with good

entrepreneurs. the ones that create interesting businesses that grow that lead to jobs we enjoy. >> mike, what do you think the 20 somethings will choose? will they double up on this big government bet or will they say look it's time for something different? >> no, david, i think they want something different. i think what they want is they want to be the next bruno mars, another founder of facebook, they want to be another ceo of apple. that's what they want top to john's point he's absolutely right. what the government should be focusing on is removing the barriers for young peopl to be successful. for example, you know, why not get rid of the corporate ince tax which is nothing but a pass through tax on individuals. get the fed out of the way which has been nothing but an obstacle for entreprenes. let the economy thrive by getting entrepreneurship back. forget about expanding the size of the post office or the irs. >> if you're going to have an experiment try the free market. we haven't tried that in a

while. coming up what you'll see during the winter olympics next month that has the crews saying folks in charge of the obamacare should win the gold medal for wasting government's dollars. attacking fracking. if these green protesters get their y some say your heating bills go up even farther.

mae it's a brain freeze. protesters o in new york and california demanding a ban on fracking for natural gas and oil coming just as the arctic blast drove up demand for natural gas and heating oil to heat our homes, driving up prices and, john, the flip side says we need more fracking than less. explain. >> yes. frack away. it's not fair for the federal government to block people from getting cheaper heating and beyond that i ink we have to insert common sense into this climate debate. if global warming were really a problem manhattan the hamptons and malibu would be depopulated. the fact that prices are rising in all three. >> rick, there's another market sial. the saudis are not happy. a saudi prince says risin north american shale production is a threat. i'm happy they see it's a threat. >> i couldn't agree more. frack away safe liu and don't

misinterpret government behavior has being against you. th are just trying to keep the drinking water safe. >> there's some people that hate of carbon energy of any stripe and trying to kill fracking. >> president obama has threatened to veto legislation before him that would make fracking easier. that's a wrong way to go. we're at that leader this technology. we increased the worldwide supply from 50 years to 200 years. >> i'm worried about reports showing cement casing failing. water pollution poing up around the country and earthquakes happening in parts of the country. >> steve, we all like clean drinking water. we don't like this hidden agenda. >> it's a safe process getting safer. companies like exxon don't want to give money to trial lawyers. >> no matter how high your heating bills go our iormers

we're back. stocksan hp pay your heating bills. morgan stanley focused growth. >> long term capital appreciaon tries to tamp down volatility. they look for undervalued companies. my kale you have to have a $1,000 minimum investment. >> if you like tech companies like google and priceline it's a funds for you.

if not avoid it. >> prevision cash parts. why is that your pick? >> they make components for the industrial sector. they borrowed a lot of money that they are using to make acquisitions to help the company grow. they borrowed this money just before interest rates started to creep up. >> good company. good balan sheet. at a good price as well. >> just want to talk about one thing before we go which is the disconnect between wall street and main street. macy's on wednesday decided to fire 2,500 people. the next day the stock went up. sometimes what happens what's good for wall street is not good for main street. >> that's true. at the same timewe have this full throttle federal reserve where the federal reserve is the wind beneath the wings the stock market. that's at play too. >> michael, americans are getting fed up with the stock market. >> i think one of the things that's really happened, david, what the fed's policy, the

federal reserve has essentially done is over the last five years made it very easy for big companies to access capital and very hard for small companies and start up, which those companies are actuay the job creators. >> that's it for "forbes on fox." keep it right here. "cashin' in" is next. mirror, mirror on the wall is obama making america fall. president o. played the blame game. are his policies the reason so many people are struggling? and then, skiing. curling and health care. white house planning an olympic sized obamacare push during the winter games next month. a majority of americans want obamacare repealed. should uncle sam get a gold medal for wasting your money. plus. >> i come out here today to apologize to the people of new jersey. >> a bridge to controversy, the