less stock. >> no devil, he, sometimes he's a litt devilish. kaput to on interests coming up. then business ock continues. neil, take it away. [ music playing ] . . >> already. some are calling it obamacare numbers game that simply is not aide i aiding the taxpayers. good morning, i'm neil cavuto. with a federal judge upholding subsidies in 34 states are covered under the new government exchange and that can continue and fewer young amecans are signing up for the health care law and that continues, we got serious cost problems with this law. you ha to ask yourselves this, is this thing measuring up? or areits costs been up? no wonder charles spain fed up and taking taxpayer bailout. is he going too far?

sandra smith is here to debate it. charles payne, what do u ma of all this. >> i got to tell you, we were asked to suspend common sense when they pitched this to us. it's gionta worse since then. when congressman doyle told the world, hey, my aduld son, we don't have to pay its premiums, you the american taxpayer are paying it. you want to talk about outrageous, now even if you are if a state with its own exchange, you have to fork over money to pay up to 400% of the premium of other people. you add it at the top. young people aren't getting involved. all the math is a massive implosion or massive tax hike. on who? i don't know, but it is a disaster. we can see it coming. >> what i love about you karlsson payne, week in week out, you can maintain this anger. >> that's why you got me in a cage this week. >> that would be my fault. >> there you go. how we arrange this seating pattern ission me. but sandra, what d you make of

that, quite the legitimate fears a lot of folks have, the numbers aren't adding up, they're worried they're going to go astronomically high. >> this is a bailout, let's be clear in every sense of the word. people at home don't want to or have time to dig through the number, i'm trying to wrap my mind around this, but we are looking at if fact if the insureers underperform by 8% or more that the government then steps in and covers 80 pors of those costs and by the way, it's the other way around, too. if the insureers outporp by 8% or more,hey have to share 80% of the profit with them. this is a profit by any sense of the word. i can guarantee yothe left will come up to say this is not a bailout by definition. >> i have no idea what she said, but i'm outraged. so what does the mean? >> i think you can consider it a bailout if taxes go up. if costs go up, that is not going to happen.

politically. >> to put it in layman's terms, if the insurance companies are in extreme duress, they can't keep up with this, the only alternative is to bail them out or help them out because they will implode, right? >> are youtelling me a republican congress, there is a good chance we will have a republican senate will prove. that that is not going to happen politically. >> will they approve bailouts for banks? >> yeah, because the whole financial system will implode. >> that did not cost. >> you don't think they will do the same? >> it's not the sme as the banking system. by the way, it ain't happen, it's never going thappen. >> you go back to tell people they will lose their insurance but a their company is going awol? >> it's going to be dismantled. but there is a big difference in the the way sandra presented. this is a bailout prosecutor and simple and the way scharly presented. >> sandra used numbers and facts. >> this is writt into the law those numbers are written into the law, by the way. >> subsidies are written into the law, yes, increased taxes on

the people who can pay are written into the law. congressman charles you mentioned is the adult son is going to get the subsidy, not forever. that's a part of the program. hold on, let me finish. i know you don't want it ever, but the point is it's not going to last forever, that's one of the subsidies, one of the taxes. >> it might get worse. >> that does not mean this is going to need a bailout. it might but it might numr. >> but i do find, guys, i find it interesting that ben stein is in toronto right now. so he's already moved. >> that's medicine right there. >> ben, what do you think of this. >> i think they've scrambled up an ec, now we are trying to physical out how to unscramble it. it was always scrambled up. we never knew what was in the by. we knew it was going to be a rancifer of well to do people to less well to do people. we knew there were going to be equities and confusion. mr. obama rammed it through on

his popularity after his election. we knew it was going to be a mess. sure enough it's a mess. how weill ever get out of this mess is a very good questio how we will make it operate is a very good qustion. how it will be fair and equitable is a fair questio why didn't they do the nixon thing ofgiving it a check for people who couldn't afford to buy health insurance? i have no idea. >> charles, now whether you like it or not, it is what it is and republicans, of course, want to just turn away from itch there is another strategy that says, well, let this thing go on its own course and die on the vine of hits own accord. i'm not sure it happened that way. >> listen, to charlie gasparino's point, you may have the president the same for three years the argument is are we going to let insurance companies go out of business an nobody has health insurance? and it's going to be a tough proposition. ben just said we knew it was going to be a wealth transfer, that's true. we did not know we were going to be subs diekz it as single men

who is a grown adult that make $45 grand a year, somehow we would be on th hook to pay these premiums. the young peopleign up, it is ludicrous they are not signing up. by the way, it will blow up a lot sooner tan social security will. this could go off in the next couple years. >> i will flip this around. i think the approach on democrats and republicans will be to let this run. you say die of its own accord. i say it will be allowed to run. it will get better, more people will sign up, more young people will sn up. >> that's the hook, i talked to a lot of the architects behind this. by the way, i admire the one was encyst i'm one of the architects behind this, it was sort of like saying, yeah, my building fell down, i'm the guy tt built it. nevertheless, they are saying, look, give this time. the number and the trend is our friend. do you honestly buy that? because even assuming you get millions more to sign up, millions more are going to continue to lose coverage, so are you still netanyahu going down? >> i do honestly buy it.

i think it picks up steam. as it begins to work, it begins to work more. >> only in the most perfect world, adam. only in the most perfect world. >> i follow what you are saying. those who have coverage now, millions won't have that coverage. they will be shifted tosomethin exchange, a private exchange. there will be a big adjustment. net, net, a year from now, will you likely have fewner health insurance than you do now. the who idea is to cover everybody. it seems stupid. >> you are assuming a situation where nothing changes, nobody else picks up health insurance from their employer for any reason. nothing gross. >> you will also have more losing. so in the end, you get more losing than gaining. >> that is generally not good. >> if you think this is going to work, i suggest look at the ceo report on the cost savings of it. >> i thought you were going to tell me i should subscribe to one of the exchanges. >> that's a good point. think, if you look at the ceo report, there are 400 caveats to

this thing saving any money. that's why it's not g going to work. there is no such thing as a perfect world. >> i don't believe -- wait, 400 -- >> do you believe? >> no. >> 390 makes sense. >> go ahead. >> neil, there is no obama policy that makes sense. his foreign policy doesn't make sense, his economic policy doesn't make sense. there is nothing about it that makes sense, it's all confusion. this is the post-clear cut example of the confusion. >> then i'll put you down as a maybe on the process. when we come back and we do have a lot more here. we have a new report saying that the next wave of obamacare cancellations to my point with adam, could tens of millions of actual small business workers, now, could you be next? the forbes gang is on it at the top of the hour. up next, $120 million bucks is not enough. that was pitch to me from a former transportation secretary for a big hike in gas taxes. but was it actually a big swing

an a miss? we play the tape. you decide. >> that's what we've always done in america. >> all right. we also account for the monies we spend in america. but we'll see, secretary. >> it's being accounted for, neil. >> we'll see. >> i am right. >> okay. fine. so ally bank has a raise your rate cd that wothat's correct.a rate. cause i'm really nervous about getting trapped. why's that? uh, mark?

go get help! i have my asons. look, you don't have to feel trapped with our raise your rate cd. if our rate on this cd goes up, yours can too. oh that sounds nice. don't feel trapped with the ally raise your rate cd. ally bank. your money needs an ally.

i'm kelly wright. we ta you back to cavuto on business. for all your headlines head to foxnews.com. if congress doesn't step up

and either increase the tax, they will have to take the money out of the fund. >> america is one big pothole, neil, if we don't come up with the money. >> how sure, are you that that money will be spentd spent? i heard of social security locks boxes, i had a devil of a time seeing this money accounted for collectively because it's worse. you know, anything imaginable. wait a minute. before i commit more money or you ask more money from us, can't we account for the money that's been spent and where it's going? no answer on that one, so a question now, the former secretary ray la hood said we need infrastructure, we do, we need a hike into federal gas tax to do it. my question remained as it was to him. what happened to all the money we raised tus far, in case are you counting, charles payne, already $120 billion bucks every year. we pay in a variety of tax,

tolls, fees, you name it. for just this purpose on the state, local, federal level and we're still in the final days of rome, what's the deal? >> i know you like my cuff link colltion, i don't have it. i spent 18 bucks every day crossing the george washington bridge. >> do you do that or does your driver? >> he's always complaining ab it. i'll tell you where the tax is going, though, 85 billion to fuel tax, $12 billion to tolls, $9.8 billion property taxes, 14 billion for local and state fees. that's the breakdown of the cash. what they are doing with i i don't know. >> that's my point. a lot of people say neil doesn't have an interest, i do, i can see clearly. what i do raise here is before we plow good money after bad, account for the money we spent. if you can allocate and tell me it's been spent wisely to this very cause, then i'll give you

more money. not until then. >> i think it makes us all uncomfortablto hear secretary la hood say america is one big pothole as charles is mentioning those numbers, let me remind everybody every time you put a gallon of gas into your tank, you are already paying 18 cents in a federal gas tax, you are paying about 30 plus cents in state and local gas taxes. on average, you are paying about 50 vents cents out of every gallon you are putting into your gas tank and more if you are filling up for a business, fillingp your truck with diesel. that is abo 15% of every time you buy gasoline, it's going to the fed, state and local governments. you are still talkin we are driving down the street hitting potholes. >> i think it's adam's fault, remember when they started the lottery, it was going to the education. all our kids should have gold plated laptops, they shod be geniuses, they're still as stupid as ever.

i'm beginning to wonder what good it does pouring money on the same old problem if we continue account for the money we have spent. that's a big problem. >> i would say, don't get me started. i agree 110% on the lottery problem. >> you are saying that, because you are here. >> i am in san francisco, also, aagree on that. i don't know just because we spend a lot of money fixing roads and bridges, we oiously need more. that's the met metaphorical.. we built the interstate highway system on it. we do do a lot of fixes and it hasn't gone up in ages. that's the argument he is making. >> my argument is this, in bridges, if something were permitted in new york. the argunt was totals would stop, when the bridge was paid

for 300 years ago. so now you are asking like, okay, then what the hell to we pay? >> my point is not to be indifferent but not to compound the problems. >> we have been having this stupid conversation for 40 years. >> it's not too stupid, we were doing a segment on it. >> a stupid conversation on whether we have an infrastructure. i don't know we have a crisis. i get to wherever i have to get to on time. there is lots of taxes. i worked at the bond buyer, i covered how indebted new york state is, how much bonds they flow. >> you know it's a crisis when the paint is peeling. >> maybe it's peeling. you have to fix it. >> you have the fed, ink the engine. >> they say they need to be fixed. that's a problem. >> that's what happens, that's not a crisis. >> benefit that's what i want to pick up with you. my issue is not to take iue with those who say they have problems. roads need paved on. i am very, very leery of giving them more money because i know a thing or two about lock boxes an

their history. >> i would say several things, one, it's a relative issue. i'm saying they are spending $120 billion, whether they need to spend $250 billion. it's a big union thing. most of the money will be union labor, such a gigantic subsidy. so that's a gigantic factor. i really am offended by the ct this gentleman says american is one big pothole. maybe he's one big pothole. i drive to malibu almost every week. i never hit any big potholes. >> the president has no good policy. >> by the way. >> you are offended by that? >> the waste involved in infrastructure projects are off the charts. there was something that the port authority. >> unbelievable. >> the port authority in new york and new jersey built a tunnel to nowhere about ten years, 15 years ago, they spent millions of dollars. >> it's a union bribe. >> well, bottom line, i would say, look at the bottom line. they can verify all this money,

i am hope to give them more. not until then. put down that bought. not this bottle. this bottle. one high end restaurant is thinking about as a business owner, i'm constantly putting out fires. so i deserve a small business credit card with amazing rewards. with the spark cascard from capital one, i get 2% cash back on ery purchase, every day. i break my back around here. finally soone's recognizing me with unlimited rewards! meetings start at 11, cindy. [ male announcer get the spark business card from capital one. choose 2% cash back or double mile on ery purchase, every d. what's in your wallet? i need your timesheets, larry! we are thinkers.

the job jugglers. the up all-nhts. and the ones who turn ideas into action. we've made our passions our life's work. we strive for the moments where we c s, "i did it!" ♪ we are entrepreneurs who started it all... with a signature. legalzoom has helped start over 1 million businesses, turning dreamers into business owners. and we're here to help start yours.

♪ ♪ [ crying ] >> wuah! wuah! you like that? huh? you like that?

apparently, chef did not like that, not at all. similar scene playing out at chicago high-end lena restaurant. how high end? $210 per person. the man running that kitchen wants to run all kids out of the restaurant, banning them outright. sandra, is that right? what spurred this is an 8-month-old at a restaurant. the parents brought him in and the kid went nuts. >> to be fair, the chef just posed this as a question on his twitter page. he didn't say he was banning children. he said had 8-month-old in restaurant, cried all night, heard it in the kitchen. ban babies? >> he wouldn't take to twitter to pose the question if he wasn't furious. >> my biggest concern is -- this is in chicago. this is a michelin star restaurant. costs a fortune to eat there and takes a long time to get in. bottomine, you are not used to this language from me. but the parents are idiots. you don't take a baby that

late to a restaurant. >> the babysitter fell through at the last second. wait. it's a big attraction. >> right. >> they finally got their night to go there and took the kid with them. >> no, you stay home. the baby was up past their bedtime. >> give the kid vodka or something to knock it out. >> i feel bad for the chef because he has a business to conduct. he promises a very fine dining experience. >> it wasn't fine for the fellow patrons. >> that's why the parents are idiots. it takes a few bad eggs to spoil it for us all. >> b, what do you think of this? >> i don't go to restaurants that cost $210 a person. i'll leave that to you, neil, with your private jets. if i was at a restaurant paying that much money and had a screaming 8-month-old kid next to me i would lose my mind. parents who bring kids that age at ap restaurant at that level have to bedimented in some serious way - have to be

demented on a serious level. >> i hate this. >> not nice. >> kick the kid out? throw them out. >> throw the kid out and keep the parents there? >> no. parents need to have common sense. this isn't a nantive state issue. the chef is behaving responsibly and the parents weren't. >> you would accept putting a limit on kids at a restaurant. certainly li that. >> exactly. i don't know if there is a legal issue. >> charles, what do you say? >> there is a consideration issue. if they park the kids outside in a stroller, which is really bizarre. leave the kid at home, period. >> that particular evening it was not that cold. >> by the way, when it comes to kid, i wouldn't let mine in ponderosa. i want to thank charlie and sandra very, very much. up next, fewer folks wifing stocks in the new year. but not these guys. the names they are buying with their own money,

[ malannouncer ] this is the story of the little room over the pizza place on chestnut street the modest first floor bedroom in tallinn, estonia and the southbound bus barreli down i-95. ♪ this magic moment it is the story of where every eat idea begins. and of those who believed they had thpower to do more. dell is honored to be part of some of the world's great stories. that began much the same way ours did in a little dorm room -- 2713. ♪ this magic moment ♪

all right. stocks the guys are buying now? >> applied micro circuit. i love it. they are coming out with fantastic thing for cloud and data service. >> the vanguard developed market etf. you are buying big, successful companies. >> ben, what about you? >> just a good old spdr. the index that will win the day in the long run. >> ben, do you like the market

last year? >> it cannot imitate last year but i like it for the long run. for long run it's great. >> b continues on fox. well, hold on, folks. if you thought the first wave of obamacare insurance cancellations was awful, you ain't seen nothing yet. the next wave expected to hit small business workers. 40 million work for companies with small group insurance plans that may b affected by obamacare, the same way the individual policies were. one blue cross, blue shield company warning that 99.5% of their small group plans will be affected. so should you be worried? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with mr. steve forbes, rich karlgaard, elizabeth macdonald, john