>> it cannot imitate last year but i like it for the long run. for long run it's great. >> b continues on fox. well, hold on, folks. if you thought the first wave of obamacare insurance cancellations was awful, you ain't seen nothing yet. the next wave expected to hit small business workers. 40 million work for companies with small group insurance plans that may b affected by obamacare, the same way the individual policies were. one blue cross, blue shield company warning that 99.5% of their small group plans will be affected. so should you be worried? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus with mr. steve forbes, rich karlgaard, elizabeth macdonald, john tamby, rich.

here we go but in spade >> 2014 will be a train wreck. you have a 40 million americans who work for companies with 100 employees or fewer. aetna ceo says the premium for the workers will go up 20 to 50% in the course of 2014. even the government's own health and human resources says that up to 80% of those workers could lose their coverage. >> yeah, that was actually based on an i.r.s. report. they were using information from h.h.s. rick, onically, a lot of the letters that are going to go out to the small plans are going to happen in octob. just before the election. that is dangerous for the democrats. >> it's actually interesting. a couple of fast rrectis. they won't lose the coverage, they will see the coverage change. it has to because of the requirements of the law. >> exactly. >> however, i'll make a prediction for you. a surprise prediction. keep something in mind. individual insurance, the insurance companies have wanted out of that business

for years. they don make money. small business, they do make money. you watch. there will be an accord between now and october. mainly for the reason you just raised. nobody wants to go in the election with the issue being a problem. there will be an accord, that will smooth the way so it works out much better than it did last year. >> steve, i wonder if the republicans would want an accord. this coming right before the election. the fact is we have seen 6 million individual policies affected by obacare. we're about to see 40 million people affected by this change, because of obamacare. >> yeah. in terms of an accord you don't have to worry about the republicans or the congress, they'll just do it anyway. why let the law get in the way? but in terms of impacting small -- >> we're going to talk about that in the "c" segment. go ahead. >> in terms of the small businesses, this is hurting the economy. a label of uncertainty. so instead of growing 4-5%, wel be lucky to get 3%.

small businesses are the source of jobs. they have not been creating them. this is the worst creation for job creation since the war. >> these 40 million people, not just hypothetical. already we hear real stories about real people and real companies. guy named steve loman, a small business owner in pittsburgh telling the "washington post" the aetno ppo plan he offers 30 employees will be discontinued at the end of the year. he has been offered a new policy but the premiums are 40% higher and other insurance rates are similar. >> it's very simple. small businesses virtue of being small often lack the means for gold plaited health plans. so, logic dictates a lot of them will be canceled. barack obama talks a big game of helping the common man to the poor. but every policy from wealth distribution to obamacare itself harms t poor people. it almost gives you the people

he hates the people he intends to help. >> emac, it's bad enough to go baf small businesses. but the business is very often will pass on some of the costs to the individual workers. >> you wonder when the small business guy will get a break, given the other breaks and the delays that the president has given to political con stitch wansies. this -- constituencies. the "wall street journal" reported on this and what i hear is that the small business offers a cheap plan, a catastrophic plan, with another mandated plan, it could be aoophole they can go through. what stinks for the small business guys is the got did delay what is called the small business shop exchange for a year. so they can't get on that. again, this isecoming a wacamole bil we have to see if the government will step in and do the right thing. >> mike, there are legs to these problems, too, as we

say. there are all sort of ways they will affect the economy. maybe it's why the economy isn't growing the way we want it to. right? >> of course. obamacare increases or raises taxes 20 times on small business owners. or 20 dferent taxes that are new or increased. as steve alluded to, you have to ask yourself since small business are the primary engine of job growth in the country, why are so many people not even in the labor force anymore? this is the lowest participation rate since the depression. the president doesn't care. he is only interested in getting in the law, even if he has to lie about it for years to get it passed. >> that is an excellent point. we have are always talking about job and concerned about the job growth. everybody agrees on that. it's the small business where the new jobs are created. >> in past recovers, small busisinesses in the first year of a recovery will create something like three-quarters

of the new jobs. as steve forbes points out they have been missing in action in the recovery so we have unemployment rate around 7.5% and the abysmal job participation record. the president is on the record for saying the election is about punishing your friends and rewarding -- punishing your enemy and rewarding your friends. small business owners are in the main republican. it's not really a surprise that the administration has been anti-small business. >> that is an interesting charge. i'm sure rick would dispute it. what do you think about that? is it coincidental that people hurt the hardest by this are republicans? >> i'm not sure i buy e premise. small businesses are the ones that will get a special tax credit for the first time to helm them to get more people they employ in the program. that is a big deal though you may not wa to acknowlge it. that is not my idea of trying

to punish anybody. >> but steve, the fact is the natural federation of the independent small business are not happy about it. they say they would rather go back to the old ways than get new tax exemptions because there are too many complications involved in that. >> it's also a way to punish you if they don't like you. you just don't qualify for the exceptions. one thing that came out is the how vague the language in the law is, so they can interpret it any way they want. make it simple and let the market do it, which works when you allow it to. >> then there is a problem of credibility. who do you believe. the obama administration is lying about who will be affected or not be or the small businesses themselveses who are saying very openly and honestly they are scared to death about what wll happen. >> i believe private commerce over any administration in power. e beauty is everyone realizes labor is a cost. they raise the cost of hiring workers. that is a problem.

nice thing for the liberal left, they realize if you ofr something fancy it will cost someone. it's costing businesses and showing up in the hiring records. >> what about rick's point? the administraon doesn't want 40 million voters to get angry right before the next election. is there likely to be a deal before the 40 million people will be hit by this? >> you would think so. you think they have some i.q. to do something to help out. here is the problem. i hear what rick is saying about the tax credit. it's an important one. at the same time, the small business take the federal and cal taxes go up north of 40%. that is bad. why is the government allowed to dole out tax credit while raising the taxes across the board, hitting small businesses really hard? at the same time, saying you go to the health exchanges to get the health insurance. it's ace and wonderland going through rabbit hole. >> if you lookt the real period of growth, like in the reagan administration from

1983-1990, it was when all the rates came down, the tax code became simplified. we got rid of extraneous regulations. we are going in the opposite direction with the extra little taxes. >> right. simple is good. complicated is bad when it comes to the economic growth. the bottom line of obamacare for small businesses, the tax credits aren't enough to make up for the higher costs. >> the thing is about having an accord before the election, everyone knows those things are temporary. sometimes they don't get enforced. so it's not going to make any real difference in people's perception. >> hold on to your wallets. coming up next, teachers tired of paying the union dues are taking the union to court. if they succeed in schooling big labor, we can all save big money. if you wear a denture,

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now have back to "forbes." ♪ ♪ imagine being forced to pay a union you don't want and don't like. some have to pay some mandatory dues. some used to lobby against their own interest. now a group of teachers suing to stop being forced to pay the dues. as much as $1,000 a year. steve, you say we should hope they win. why? >> you should haven't to pay something you don't like and including taxes. dues are up $1,000 a year. they should have an opt-in

choice. if you think they are doing good things you put up the money. but most like to keep the money they earn. >> that is already the law. that is not what this is about. every member has a right to opt out what they pay for the political dues. the law and it's clear. this is trying to give them the right to opt out of all of their dues. what is wrong with that? >> it's about the sour grapes that happen. they put it on the last election a people in california said it's not right. they should about get something for nothing. the union represents them and they should have to pay something. >> i was a teacher for a while and i didn't know all the stuff my union voted in far of, not only voted in favor of but lobbying. using our union dues to lobby. >> more than 95%. i think 97% of the union due

go to the democratic causes. look at the numbers. 49%, half of teachers are the republicans or independents. when the teacher stand up and say no, that is when you see what is going on with the teachers. the union dues go to the board of education junks for supervisors and campaign acvities for things teachers don't want, voter fraud in california and things like that. what country do we live in, when there are state laws called paycheck protection laws so teachers get protection for the automatic deduction of dues. >> teachers are standing up. they are making frankly reasonable cases. here is what one teacher said. the unions are free to push whatever agenda they please but i have a problem with them taking my money to push my agenda f which i do not agree. that makes sense. >> i'm proud of my home state. all teachers like women or

other demographics are not cut from the same cloth. we have different value, interest and political leaning anthat is a good thing. they shouldn't be coerced to support candidates or issues they don't agree with. teachers are out there who said i believe in expanding educational freedom and the union is giving money to democrats who will do everything in their power to squash that opportunity. or sustain unsustainable benefits to bankrupt my state. >> hold on. rich karlgaard is out in california. what do people think? don't the demands sound reasonable? >> you know, where i live in silicon valley, most voters are democrats. but they are very, you know, meridecratic and build great companies. i can't find a democratic friends who believes in teachers unions because american has fall son far in math and science relative to every other country in the world. we're on a cusp of revolution

and it may start as revolutis often do in california from unexpected place. >> remember jarvis proposition 3. the reagan revolution started in california. what about the largerssue? rick himmed at it. you can't be a public school teacher without being member of the union. shouldn't that change? >> i don't think that somebody represented by a union should be compelled to pay for the politicking. i do think they should be compelled to pay for bargain ing. to say otherwise is allowing freeloading. that's like me saying because i'm a republican and i voted against your property tax increase, i opt out of property tax. rick is right about this. >> i don't think rick is right about this. >> shocking. >> i think individuals should have the right -- it is shocking, rick. i think individuals should have the right to join or not. >> that is right. >> why not have the opt in and let the union make the case, using the money well. if people aren'tonvinced by

it, they should be able to withdraw. this is supposed to be once upon a time, voluntary association. >> collective bargaining with whom? taxpayers, property tax going toward -- i get it. we have want teachers to be paid well. i'm for sha. but we have to be realistic about what is going on. >> holon. give rick the last word. holding his own side of this. all across the country, more and more states are going for right to work, where you are v the right to choose to join a union, not mandtory. >> i want to point out if you make this argument basing this on a political contribution, it'sisleading. this lawsuit is not about political contributions. >> rick, you have the last word. i did hear you last.

>> got the last word. we predicted it three weeks ago right here, folks. now the white house is confirming it. that could mean we

we told you this would happen. three weeks ago you heard it here first, president obama hired john pedesta to push through a plan he outlined to bypass congress and use executive powers to push through his agenda. this week, the president is confirming it. >> we are not going to wait

for legislation in order to make sure that we're providing americans the help they need. i can use that to sign executive orders and take executive and administrative actions. >> well, steve, here is the blueprint in my hands. we saw this coming way back in 2010. >> yeah. why have a constitution? congress doesn't do what you want them to do, bypass them to issue an executive order. we used to call that a dictatorship. the courts are waking up to it. it looks like supreme court is going to knock down what they did with the recess appointments to the national labor relations board. other courts are waking up. we have checks and balances, not in the fiscal side but in terms of the political power and the courts are waking up to the threat. >> rick, other presidents used executive orders to do things but the tweaking of things likes obamacare, we saw another tweak this week of obamacare through the executive order. that is new stuff, isn't it? isn't it scary? >> you have to expect when you a situation we are in now we

can't get congress to do much of anything, presidents will always turn to the executive wer. there is going to be people who don't like what he is doing who is going to react as steve reacted. i get it. but the fact is somebody has to do something to get certain things moving in this country. i got to tell you, you look at what the president came one this week. jack kemp like enterprise zone plan. great way to use it? >> we might agree on some things but the fact is you talk about the country needing it. do we really need this move to reduce greenhouse gas pollution by 17% by 2020? that is one of the things he may do by executive order. >> he is so conceited. i don't think this is a good way to create policy. but there are things, especially in the energy domain the president could use the executive order to help the economy. for instance, he could allow through executive order more offshore drilling through the atlantic and pacific. there is an argument to be made he could permit the

keystone pipeline. >> sorry to cut you off but we have to move it along. the fact is these are contentious issues. it's true if it was blocked for politic sake it's one thing but these are issues for where people disagree. >> i'd like to compare executive ords with those ronald reagan grey with those president obama has given. reagan used executive order to give power to the citizens. president obama did the opposite. >> bill, quick. >> you could use executive orders in a positive way. one way obama could do something good to loosen up the job market. what if he declared that the government is color blind, no more quotas or impact. >> i don'think it will happen. john? >> unlike rick i'm happiest when washington is doing nothing. beyond creating jobs that like certainty. obama acting unilaterally will create uncertainty and hurt the job creation. >> last word for the libertarian. is the president's agenda why america fell off the list of the freest economies in the world? "cashin' in" is looking in to

this at the bottom of the hour. but first, right here, stocks on a slow, bumpy ride th year but maybe not for long. informers have the name

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for delivery. >> you guys are terrific. we got three stocks in. in that short time. that is it for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it right here, the number one business block continues. you don't want to miss this. eric bolling and "cashin' in". president, the land of the fry ain't as free as it used to be. the u.s. tanking in economic freedom under your watch, sir. this year we aren't even in toten anymore. is obamanomics destroying the american dream? remember when greenpeace used fake santa to scare the heck out of the kids. >> they will leave me no alternative but to cancel christmas. >> well, now liberal lawmakers are jumping in bed with greenie and pressure networks to cover climate change stories. should we pull the plug on lefties dictate the news? and then.