ew title. and a raise? management couldn't makehat happen. [ male announcer ] introducing fedex one rate. simple, flat rate shipping with the reliability of fedex. ♪ neil: welcome. i am neil cavuto. is it me or is anyone accountable, the house declaring a clean debt ceiling hike. adding provisos to it. it did not happen, it looks like we're going to keep kicking this can down the road. if you think account builty is bad in washington, something we'll take up with pat buchanan. you should hear about corporate accountability and the lack of it from carl icahn my guest

tonight. >> when you alert a company to a stake you have taken. these days it comes up on twitter, but old days, it was done through a phone call, did they take a phone call or go to war with you, what is the icahn motive? >> with a lot of exceptions corporate governance is dangerous disfunctional for our economy, for our well being. if you can do something about a bad management, you will make a great deal of money, right now our corporate leaders are not the right guy. neil: he is not done. america's most celebrated, it not feared corporate raider is having fits on what is going on in the usa. but first, pat buchanan, you know the score. a trillion dollar farm bill, and

a debt ceiling extension with no provisos a lot of people throwing up their arms, what about you? >> i think that they decided we're not going to have a second charge of the light brigade, they were not prepared to fight or put spending cuts on there i think that john boehner and house and a lot of house members knew in the end they would capitulate, why start the fight. neil: now you have a lot of ticked off tea partiers and conservatives, those who made john boehner speaker john boehner, they are getting annoyed. what do you tell them? >> some are justify ibly annoyed. he indicate a willingness to go with quote immigration reform, amnesty, they rebelled.

on this one, i can't fault boehner, he said we marched up that hill before, they drove us back down. this time it will be the same outcome, so i'm not going to do it they ought to give boehner a pass on this one, i know some won't, i understand why. but if i were boehner, i think i would have done the same thing. neil: i doubt it. nothing remotely mainstream about you, but having said that, i did talk with a prominent republican earlier today before the vote, he said, it is as if we have given up the fight. i'm paraphrasing. they don't know what they stapd for outside of getting through 2014 midterm elections. maybe flipping senate. but, this harkens back to a party that will do anything to sort of of maybe gain control but lose its soul in the

process. >> i think that is right, i think that congress of united states itself and house, they are in a terrible way historically. the president of uzbekista usa has been seizing war powers saying i'm going to ignore you, the federal reserve now, money supposed to belong to congress, the fed runs, that we heard miss yellen drive the market up today. they are losing power of the purse. i thought that battle was better, more justified on the budget issue. there the house could say, we're the ones that decide what money will be spent on, we're not going to spend it on this one item, obamacare. now have you all of these spending, and allocations, and all these have been done, i think that congress would come off terribly if it said, however, i we're not paying for

them after voting for them. neil: that debt ceiling addresses spending congress has already appropriated. but, the defnil this case is in perception, i would like to raise that issue with you. this comes on same you know, last 7 days a trillion dollar farm bill signed into law with ridiculous pork, some food assistance for one out of three americans. they are afraid of sounding heartless, so. the spending goes unchecked. a chance with a debt ceiling to at least you know keep track of it. it goes unchecked. >> what does that tell you? it tells you one thing. they don't believe what they tell the folks back home in their hearts. when they get here, they are not going to put their jobs on the line, or risk a firestorm which

drives market down say 500, to stand by their principles, they say, one horse we'll ride, i caught it earlier, they think they are riding obamacare, "secretariat" to a 30 league victory in the derby, and they don't want any other battles, but is that crass politics, rolling the dice? it is. the party is not what it was a long time ago, not the goldwater party i went into. neil: you mentioned "secretariat", i mention horses asses. here is where we think about it republicans clings to hope that voters will remember they didn't shut the government down, they are behaving like adults when spending is out of control, markets now that pounce on continued to get nicotine for federal reserve. and we have the same investors

who bounce, something that carl icahn is getting in a bit, on whatever pab lum the federal government can feed them. >> a strange word. but i will say, i think that country has forgotten about the shut down of the government. the attention span of the american people is limited and brief, they move on to something new. i think that republicans realize that. look how far down the republicans were after that budget battle. now it looks like they may take the senate and hold the house, but i agree, what are you going to do if the get the senate and the house. neil: i think you need to grab that pitch fork against young man, pat pe buchanan thank you very much. >> thank you. neil: half a billion bucks not bad for a guy who supposedly did

not get his way or maybe carl icahn did get his way. the battle is won. and you leave with a tidy profit, some say a half billion. is that --? >> i'm not going anywhere. i'm not leaving, i have not sold one share. more do i intend to. um... well, it's true. at ally there e no hidden fees. not one. that's nice. no hidden fees, no worries. ally bank. your money needs an ally. open to innovation. open to ambition. open to boldids. that's why n york has a new plan --

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neil: we'll call him a billionaire going for broke, carl icahn like you have never seen him before, telling me the bucks he is making from apple stock, just a start. >> i'm not going anywhere. i'm not leaving, i haven't sold wore share, nor do i intip to, i think that apple is one of the cheapest stocks around. i've said that tim cook and i agree on that, very undervalued. neil: it is still cheap to you? >> yeah. i think you know sometimes you make money neil when you look at things and you can see it on the back of a envelope and make it simple, a no-brainer, netflix was one, apple one. it is just cheap.

neil: you are not leaving or selling? >> no. we like the management there it is unique for us. usually we don't like the management. but in this case we did like the management. you know why it is simple, for the last 5 years, apple spent over $18 billion in research and development, where is it? some in products they are making, they build a product up to go from iphone 5 to iphone 6. but a lot, has not been seen yet by the shareholders, they are smart. you have ives part of the ipad thing in building it, and tim cook, who is a great guy. neil: you want theed spendin them spending that. >> they don't need that cash there. they bought $14 billion in two

weeks, i am not criticizing. neil: do you think they did that because you were telling them or they were just doing that in due course. >> i'm not taking credit for it. neil: have you talked to tim cook? >> i don't want to get into convery vagues with tim, we get along. neil: you still talk. >> i am talking to him this ev evening. neil: you will say i have no intention of selling my apple share. >> absolutely have no intention of selling it. neil: you won't come back and threaten him. >> i never threatened him to begin with. we think that company is under valued, we had dinner together, he is, agrees, only difference is, why don't you spend all of the money, he didn't disagree, i think we're making too much of this. i don't want this to be a major

battlining point. the best way to win a war is don't fight it. neil: a personal question, i have. when you alert a company to a stake you have taken, these days it comes up on twitter. -ut old days was it a phone call, did they take the phone call? did they go to war with you? what what? what is icahn modus operandi. >> i believe corporate governance is disfunctional and dangerous for our economy and well being, and for pension funds, very strongly underfunded. we -- what is amazing to me, now you see the woo -- what we've done. you know, we up about 25%

annualized if we bought that stock. the hedge funds up 25% annualized. last 95 years. neil: your critics say, for every one of those you have a twa that gone. >> that is not true, i put those numbers in. by the way. i will tell you, we were at twa, we kept that company alive. when eastern went under and continental. i can't help it when you get a secular change in a industry, i'm saying when i give you those numbers, the bad ones are in there. neil: i mention them, we have gotten into this before, in pursuit of shareholder rights and gains it is encouraging mentality i was short-term thinking. carl icahn has a stake in our company, we better do something to sat guy and boost the -- satisfy and boost the stock or

we'll in a heap of trouble. but that is not why. >> we go into companies, we encourage spending. companies we control, i told you acf . 5 other companies we encourage. now you say, don't bother the guys at blackberry because we don't want to encourage short-term thinking, let them lose the money. molina baeza for that matter -- motorola for that matter. you can't say, don't bother them, because you can't make them think short-term. when the guy is losing a fortu fortune. in navistar. ceo lost 8 billion dollars, and board did nothing about it, should have you said, don't bother him, we don't want a short-term it. neil: do you think that ceos are behaving better today than when you started almost fourth years ago? >> i think some of them are very

good. neil: what is good to you? >> i'm not starting going into say. i have to think about theed if ones, i don't get involved with them too much. neil: how doe they trigger your interest? >> you go, you look at companies, you say, these are under valued, there is an asset in many of them, that asset is management. if you can do something about a bad management you will make a great dial of money, sad part is that, big mutuals are thinking that way, but far from getting involved. and if i share an obligation, the index funds you have to get them moving, if you don't i show how much better you can make the companies. neil: who are you setting your sights on now. >> you know about ebay. i'm not going in and telling you ones that -- >> paypal? >> absolutely.

nnil: they said no. >> they already said no. neil: where is the battle going. >> you tell me, a battle is a battle. neil: that war is not done? >> that war is just starting. i think ebay is a perfect example. of what i'm talking about, interesting that company has done well over last few years because they are in a great business. but look compared to amazon, paypal has done well, but paypal in a position where you have to worry about it. neil: they come back to you say, that is well and good for carl to say but we think we know our business better than carl knows our business, you say what? >> what would you have said to blackberry when they told you that? to motorola? i mean, i could go through those terrible situations, and say, well oh, don't bother them, they are thinking long-term, to take the company out of o -- off the

cliff. neil: what do you think of michael dell. >> i am not going into it dwell, i think that board did a terrible job. neil: they took themselves private, you said they are doing it on the cheap. >> michael dell told everyone how terrible the company was when we made the bid, scaring everyone to selling it to him, now he is saying how great the company circumstance you could plain that to me -- company circumstance you tell me. neil: what do you think of way that president obama has been sheparding the economy. >> i will tell you that will say that i think obama could have done a lot more, he could have done a lot more. neil: in what respect? >> investing, going in and putting money out there. i think he stressed obamacare too much. i think we could have -- >> you don't like the health care law? >> i don't -- i'm not one of those that hates it i think that obama had to to something like

that. i don't think it is that bad. i'm no expert on it but i don't think that businesses should be a medical provider. the ceo has enough trouble with his own business, what the hell is he a medical provider for. neil: the businesses that are complaining saying this is costly, you say? >> i would like to understand what they are saying, i think just another excuse if they are not having good earnings. i really think, my opinion -- i go back to my basic opinion, a no brain ir, you must -- you have -- here is a no-brainer, i can make, i am no joanious oz manages companies, i go to a company almost any company say 30% make that company turn it around, which i have done over and over, it tells you one thing. thathat company is terribly run, there is no

accountability. and here is why the little guy will get hurt. it sounds corny as hell. i am a kid from queens, i grew up on the streets, only in this great country, i have done what i have done. i could never have done it in any other strait fid society, i hate to see us lose our -- we're now foremost country in the world, as you have seen in wealth of nations, you read paul kennedy's book. the fall major economies fail. you see that they go for 300 years, or 200 years, then something happens. acountry does great when you have like we have. right guy gets to the top. we don't have that now. right now, a corporate leaders are not the right guy, they are

the right guy for the fraternity house, not every one but many, the guy, president of fraternity, knows how to get a long, then believes he a genius which she is not. neil: that kid from queens is a billionaire, one of the richest peopley on the planet. in the city in which he resides that makes him the target to the new mayor of new york city. because bill de blasio wants to get more money from guys like carl, a lot more guys like carl, carl is ready to answer. oh hey, neill, how areou? how was the trip? [ male announcer ] with nearly 7 million investors... [ shirle] he's right her hold on one sec. [ malennouncer ] ...you'd expect us to have a highly skilled call center. kevin, neill holley's on line one.

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[poof!] [beep] [clicks mouse]

nice office. how you doing? good. automatic discnts the moment you sign up. neil: you know my buddy charlie gasparino calls him comrade bill, new york city mayor. bill de blasio. what do you think one of the world's richest men who lives in new york city, thinks of the mayor? carl icahn might surprise you. how do you feel about that? >> does not bother me. neil: what do you think about him. >> i'm not a fan of the mayor but that is different reasons, we do a lot in charter schools. when you get away from bureaucracy in education, it is amazing what the charter schools accomplish. money well spent, the kids, in

middle of bronx read as well as those in scar field down the test, down the road, same thing, same environment, they can't read or write, we should have more charter schools. neil: he hates them? >> it is amazing like corporate america. how you can hate changes that you want in corporate governance when you see the results. >> maybe unions have something to do with that? >> you know, i don't know, i have dealt with unions. while there is a negative i certainly, i think that some union guys are -- i find them better than bureaucrats in say let's talk about bored of education, and -- board of education and look at problems. neil: do you think they would be open to change. >> i don't know. i'm not getting into unions. neil: but de blasio and his push to raise taxes? is that counter productive.

>> i know my friends will hate me, but hey, there is a huge divide between the rich and poor in the city, it wouldn't kill them to pay a little bit more money. come on. neil: is there a difference between carl icahn with 20 billion, and the guy 2 earns $250,000. >> there is, i'm not talking about the 250 guy, i am talking 20 million or 30 million. neil: okay. you gave an interview years back. you more or less said, find stuff i hate in both sides. >> i do. neil: you still subscribe, you don't trust either party. >> i think that republicans must muffeed the election race, i have never seen anything muffed worse than what happened. with -- in th the eelect, you

go to middle class guy and republicans go and start telling hill way have to payback deficit, and take away your e en tightment and we is -- impeachment and we have to worry about the rich guys, it is liked middle ages, we have to hang your children, it is good for you, god wants to us do it. neil: i don't think they were espousing hanging all of the children. >> no, not all. neil: you think that the rich should do more? >> not so much they should do more, i believe in ater stock crease -- amer stoc a-- ameritocracy, i have taken a lot of risk in my life, all money i have is going to the giving pledge to society for most part. >> doe your kids know that.

>> they are fine, my son has done great. neil: how do you break that at thanksgiving meals? >> they always knew that i don't believe in huge inheritance because, money can also be bad for kids, i've sense friends of mine give money to their kids, but my kids are going to be well off, my son made a great deal buying netflix, he and his father bought netflix. neil: what do you think of mark zuckerberg at he is giving a lot of money away? yoo have seen increasingly all facebook, billions. >> we do a lot with majors, science with -- i'm not looking to give a list. but i'm saying to giving pledge. what i am doing here, i know sounds corny, but i think if my legacy could be to change what

goes on in corporate america, to change the reprehensible system that we have. that only some lawyers, some -- poison pill is killing the little guy, what is going to happen, if you have this pill, you keep invading with the pill. and said we don't like these bad rangers or whatever they call them,. neil: but the pension funds are willing? >> some are not. there is slow change, a lot of these pension funds are understanding, we have to do something. we are under funded. and here is what happens. we do get calls, it is coming with some mutual funds, saying you should look at this one. we can't come out, like in the house of cards, you could say that but we can't. you could go do it, i'm like the guy that they go to in schoolyard, go beat up the bully, we hold our books for

you. neil: how do you want to be remember #ed, you are sfeat next week. 78 next week. >> i don't mindby the bully. i could show you company after company we made a fortune for shareholders and built them up, you about through the list. just this year, alone, forest lab up 15%. neil: 6 years from now they write about those that affected american capitalism, how do you want to be remembered? >> i would -- if i could be remembered. somebody changes rules in corporate governance that make management accountable. neil: shareholder robin hood? carl icahn in his own conundrum, he creates a lot of cash.

next. friday night, buy.

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charlie, do you take him at his word he hangs on to apple. >> carl is not in and out for every stock. herbalife he still there, he bought it, took on a bully. a short seller named big aikman, carl has been right so far. so, i would say, you know he you know one thing about carl icahn, he has perfected this in an interesting way, he never gets too greedy, he knows what to declare victory, right now with apple, i don't care what anyone said they increases that buyback program not because the stock was cheap, they did it but carl icahn has made a good argument on it, but he also smelled blood in the water, that blood of a cheap stock price, a lot of cash on the sideline, hen he did his dance. it worked. neil: he got them to buyback a lot of stock, he is still

hanging on, he will continue to. it is way undervalued now. >> he has big positions. you said scare them, make a lot of money off them, then leave them. them. i thought we were talking about my ikt ex-girlfriends, but he is keeping score. like charlie said, he is a motivate or, he is problem talking to tim cook right now, he said, tim, we have to get off our keasters. >> it is unbelieve able that tim cook is talking to carl, i love carl. neil: you and i, remember the days they done talk. >> not even that. >> now they can't avoid it. >> i don't think that stiff jobs, thersteve jobs, he would never have done that, carl smells blood in the water with this company, we wanted on fox business that the board is a little worried about tim book,

whether he is doing enough are in innovation, that and carl, you will buyback stock. neil: jim la camp, everyone waits when icahn assumes a position in the company for the icahn bump, just word it gets out or tweetsous out, the stock has a jump. where do you think he sets his sights now, he said let's looks for companies that are deemed undervalued or led by schmucks. >> he used that word schmucks. >> apple is creating over $7 -- trading over $700, it trades down to $400 and change, other technologies sam suns, all tried have caught up with apple, they have $160 billion in cash, it was an easy target for someone like carl icahn to come along

and raid the -- raise the stook, are there other stocks out there like that. neil: i would be careful, jarred levy, he will put a stop watch on this bull market, said it has been lifted on a lot of hot air, a lot of fed nicotine fits, and providing this easy money. that short lived. he did not attach a date or time. but he said this market is overvalued presently. >> well, carl icahn has made a great the business out of under stating the way that social media works, were the movie wall street, they send a stock price up. he is no control of that right now through twitter, and you know, through the media. getting back to poin of starket ovet of stock market over inplayeded. my fear and i think that icahn

maybe he does care about the little guy, but i think this is more about him making money, i am worried about people riding his coat tails. neil: we came into this building, i heard from a lot of people, what is icahn doing here? he brings fear. >> you know,. neil: as much as you do when you walk into the building. >> i'm not worth $20 billion. neil: 19. >> sorry. someone said that apple -- >> starke stock market trading about 4 times book right now, that is high. neil: that is what he said. >> although, we do have -- we have janet yellen in there. i'm all for -- >> i am saying picking and choosing will be harder. >> he knows that, he is good at that. people say apple should have

been ease, one of your guest said it, then why is he the only guy that did it? he is the only guy with the guts to do it. >> a lot of people bailed on apple. >> why was he only one. neil: he makes money in good markets and mad, he hedges his position. >> the reason he did it is because we could, only icahn could go in say they have $160 billion cash. >> why can't icahn or any of others okay he is not getting sweetheart deals. neil: no sweetheart deals here. back to his macro view. he has a condescends dismissive view of congress, and president. and corporate america. he is sick of them, he said have to go pass them.

>> he knows how to use social media. if you look at a lot of things he tweets, a lot is about corporate governance, he is on strong ground. i would say carl has nothing else to prove. >> you are right. jarred, where next? he is dismissive on banks, but he likes technology. >> a tough call, he said the word no brainer a lot, he mentioned net flex, i was short that stock when he got into it it hurt. i remember that. i did not see that as a no-brainer going up, i don't know where he goes next, i think apple has a lot to lose if they don't change. neil: i get nervous during the ethe interview. >> he covers both ends. >> he could short a lot of stocks out there. a lot stocks selling 50 times sale. neil: you never know, we'll

watch, i get nervous when we keeps telling me 'this being a no-brainer, and repeats it, no brainer. what is he saying? is it me or is getting white house to spell out what is working with the health care law like pulling teeth. neil: who better to gauge how much they are screwing it up than a guy who straightens teeth, thar oar on the --er o er o orthodontist who is taking the most powerful man in the world to court. on erything you purchase, every day. it doesn't mean, "everything.. as long as you buy it at theas station." it doesn't mean, "everything... unl you hit your cash back limit." it means earn 1.5% cash back on every purchase, every place, every occasion, all over creation.

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neil: here is good news on what republicans call this health care month trosty for most american businesses president delayed the most onerous feature for another year. that delay is against the law. this is a guy who straightens people's teeth out who said that. he wants to get something straight with the president, he is suing the president to make his poin, your poin it, the , you need congress to establish law. >> thank you. correct, president seems to have

a complicated relationship with the truth. he does not get article 1 said only congress can maker change the law, article ii said that president has an firmtive duty to uphold those existing laws whether he likes them or not. neil: president's people come back say. whether it was fdr with social security, they change the provisions, the requirement. this is nothing new, what do you say? >> well, i say that it is not just a number of executive orders but size and scope of the orders, he has executive this order, it is matt ostracizing no one has been a executive order that cost $10 billion according to his own congressional budget office for one year, now think about two years, double that.

since he doubled down on his mistake on illegallinling waving -- canceled a law, for year 2014, as a congress of one. our elected officials in congress have earned right to have a voice in the law. neil: this is -- started with you larry, you were planning for the law's arrival at the beginning of the year. and last fall, and then, out of the blue, things are postponed, you spent a lot of money planning and preparing. then, low and behold, it all within c ca. >> he said the law of the land, then disrespects the validity of his own law. neil: you were not for this law but you knew it was coming, you were preparing for it, and president essentially pulled rug out?

>> that is right. as a business owner, i feel i have a fiduciary duty. i think that president should lead by example and respect the law, he said let me be clear. we have asked him, upon what legal authority do you have the right to change the law as a congress of one, he has refused to disclose that. neil: thank you very much doctor. good having you again. >> thank you neil. neil: and i don't know about this, but i think john boehner got ted cruz upset, he put his neck on out on this show yesterday talking about what republicans will do to attack another debt ceiling hike, then the speaker goes and pulls the rug out from under him, creating a bigger mess, forget about what you are thinking if you are ted cruz. what are you thinking if you are a tea partier. wait until you meet one. or retirement.

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neil: do you think whether it is your measure or others should be attached to and he' measure that raises the debt seal disblg

we should not raise de seating without. >> it not happen, senator ted cruz wanted attachment could but today house republicans passing a debt ceiling they call clean without such cuts. tea partier mark meckler. also furious. he did it. >> you know, no surprise. i was on your show over three years okay. are you asked me what i thought then about to become speaker john painer, i told you -- john boehner, i told you that country needed leadership, it was obvious he would not lead republicans, he demonstrated his lack of leadership. neil: but pat pe buchanan saying it was part of capital clues oit.

not getting a pasted with a government shut down media would blame republicans for, and disrupting the momentum they are having, what say you? >> i say, only thing they care about is their own politicl power, they don't care about american people, 66% of american people say federal government is too big, and out of control. last time we had debt ceiling fight 77% of americans said don't raise the del debt ceiling, he would say he represents ruling clash in washington d.c. whose economic confidence is at an all-time high. neil: i think he calculated big dial. mark doesn't like it, this time, i'm strong enough to party strong enough to weather what any assault they have. by the way, where else are they going to go. >> it a calculation he made over and over we lost it.

we means the american people have been on the losing en of that ever since john boehner took over as speaker of the house issue we have raised that debt ceiling 42 times since 1980, there is no ceiling, it is an open terrace, they will keep raising it. neil: do you think -- the tea partiers, made him a speaker, now he is spitting on you? >> well because he is doing what guys like me who paid attention to john bai boehner's history, i don't think he will be speaker very much longer, there have been rum billing about a leader ship coop in the house, this is time, all he did was cap pi pit late. neil: thank you mark. tomorrow, we'll get into wrath

that mark meckler of raising something about carl icahn said about accountability, in washington and corporate america. tomorrow. ♪ ♪ kennedy: they are huge, they know far better than you how to run your life. we are beholdens to wims of government. whether it is a state dinner or debt ceiling or spy agency that putting cold car antics to shame. they are different from us, they think they are better than us, their reach knows no bounds, no wander allies in far left, and fed up right have aligned to declare this, the day we fight back, whether it is signing on-line petition, or a discussion about what is most important it is time ta take back, you are not better government, but you are on note us from all sides, this is "the independents".