i thought. >> i'll also say, looking very, very beautif, honored to have her on the show every time she's o. exactly. not exactly how i wand to show, but -- >> i think ev >> right now. see you later. coong the booksn obamacare and insurance executives telling fox news the white house enrollment numbers have been enflated. thwhite house is describing them as this -- >> with the benefit of a full month of january data, we're able to paint a more holisti picture to date and it's very, very encouraging news. >> encouraginencouraging? do the math and let you decide. inflated or not, the white house says 3.3 million americans enrolled in the private part of obamacare. it saidnothing about the 6.2 million getting cancellation notices from their private insurance. a net loss of 2.9 million. so is that encouraging, or will obamacare continue to cause more

people to lose their coverage than get it? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." "in focus with stephen and others. are more people losi private insurancthan getting it? >> absolutely. the ratio of 2-1, small businesses when they nally bring in the rest of obamacare, tens of millions,everal milln people certainly are going it lose it there. this thing is just beginning. my daughter, for example, got her policy cancelled. the president said you could have it back but the state of new jersey got word from the heth and human services department, regardless what the president ys, your policy doesn't qualify. overbloated policies. people who like their policies are losing them and it's a burden on the economy. >> rick, numbers show it. a net loss for people getting prive insurance? >> i don't think so. as a matter of fact, there's a gallup poll showing a significant drop inuninsured i january of last year to january

of this year. that wouldn't be mathematically possible if, in fact, we have more people losing insurance than gaining . >> hold on a second. let be a little more specific. we're talking about private insurance now. half of that number, half of those on the uninsured number, are getting medicaid. that is not private insurance. that is -- that is insurance that taxpayers have to pay for. >> except it doesn't necessarily speak to the poll. >> it does exactly. see to the poll. >> let me throw this into the conversation, since you're going to raise that. a great many of the people who lost insurance through cancellation, we never talk about the fact those cancellation letters invited people to come back to the company and get a new policy. many of the people who got those caellations would t qualify for subsidies. so there's no reason for them to shop -- wat. no ras for them to shop on the exchange. millions of those people are buying their policies directly from the company. >> let's just deal with numbers at we know about, and elizabeth macdonald.

so many politicians throwing around so many phony numbers. dick durbin, senator from illiis, throwow around numbers. play a spot of that and get your reaction. >> 10 million americans havave health insurance totoday who wod not ve had it without the american afford act 10 million. >> the "washington post" gav that four pinocchio noses. we have the numbers and the numbers don't look good. >> a lot of helium in those numbers more than in the hindenburg forwhatick durbin just said. they're cooking the books. these are deep fried numbers. >> which numbers are frd? >> you cannot rely on a poll of a limited group o people, maybe 1,000 people, to extrapolate what's going on in the entire system. the problem is, insurers don't disclose how many have actually been enrolled. another problem, you can say 3.2 million, whatever, enrolled, how many have actuly paid? maybe st a quarter have pd for their insurance. this is not a seamls transition. talking about people being

transitioning to more expensive plans or on to medicaid, and those medicaid rolls by the way, the cbo says medicaid roll, expected to go up by 9 million, meaning taxpayer costs go up, too. >> another figure we have to put out from the numbers issued this week, that the age of those people signing up is still fosed on the older folks. they need the younger folks, and only 25% of the people enrolling are young adults those are the people that they need to make this system work. >> wel that's right, david, and the cbos own estimates say that in order for amace to work, to make actuarial sense, march 31st is the deadline. we need enrollees from 25% in the 18 to 24 group to the 40%. that's not going to happen. another flaw makes the numbers cook. somewhere between 20% and 30% of

this 3.3 million that the administration i citing have not paid anything yet so they're technically not insured. >> you really think they went to that trouble not to pay? >> we will find ouut there is another thing, john that we have to consider here. i don't mean todrown people throughout in mbers, but the numbers are actually dropping. we had 700,000 fewer enrollees in january than we did in december. so the trend shrine not good. the trend line is not good. >> the numbers bring to min that famous politicaltatement that government is so big to give you everything you want is also big enough to take it away. governmental conceit gagave us e obnoxious individual mandate. because of the expense of such a thing, it means many that want insurance will go without it. the good news, americans are discovering how very cru is compassionate government. >> saved mike ozanian for last. you have a point to make about

the number of enrollees. go ead. >> i don't really care. in cuba, david, everybody signed up for health care, but that's one of the worst health systems in the world. theottom line for obamacare, david, is th it's financed through higher tags taxes and government ationing, pushing a lot of people in medicd, for example. if you go to see a cancer specialist your initial visit for an hour and 15 minutes that doctor gets paid $6.50 an hour. what type of doctors do you think you're going t get to treat kansas whir they were paid 1/10 of what a good plumber gets paid? >> that's point. as bad as the enrolling numbers are,n cuba, everybody has health care, and they haveve awl health care. we don't want that kind of a system. >> reminds me of an old saying in the former soviet union. the health care is free but you can't get any. they pretoned pay us and we pretend to work. so again the panel is absolutely right. the government can make proses but it means rationing, and you end up getting -- less for more. >> the utopian benefits no one

can afford while uninsuring the insures t s the. medicaid, $265 biion a year, more system coming into the system via medicaid. those cts wll explode. now about the size of kaz kazakhstan's entire compa. >> they popone it for business. once it hits business vushgs a catastrophe on your hands. >> right. >> rick unger, the fact the polls done, that we've done on people's attitude about obamacare are not looking good. in fact, 51% of the people polled think that eventually obamacare isoing to be a bad thing for the country. only 42% think a good thing? >> which is a lot better than they were. i have to tell you something. i'm taking enormous -- >> the eternal optimist! i love your optimism. >> w i'm really optimistic. i just heard some of the most ridiculous arguments i've heard since the beginning of the obamacare discussion. when i answered your question in

the first segment, and it was coect, what did everybody say? but the price. we're not talking about t ice in this segment. but they go to theprice, and when the price isn't good enough, liz goes and challenges the poll. >> rick, you know -- let me tell you something. >> hold on a second. rick, you ask a question -- because the news we're talking about is the numbers. and the numbers don't look good, and that is -- hold on. the poll of the insured and uninsured you brought up, half of those people who are now insured have medicaid, and that's something that we pay for. that's not something that the private sector absorbs. >> and more -- >> health reform, if it's so great, why has the administration continue topped delay it? 28 deep lays and counting including delaying the employer maate? if it'so great? >> answer that question. >> if obamacare so great -- >> why do you have to keep delaying it? go ahead. >> let me answer it's such a typical spin-off. the law itself cld be, and i'm not going to sit here and argue it is, it could behe greatest thing since chopped liver.

the administrationf the law, it's no secret, has been god awful. >> you coukeep using that. >> is that the problem here? your point. the overall concept is good but administration is bad? >> no. it's like a communist country. thfoot goes down because of the weather, not because of the system. reminds me of the chancellor of education of new york last week during a snowstorm saying it's a autiful day. rick, it's a beautiful day. >> and in communism. >> when the private insurance companies are marking a ton of money. >> i think the other thing is, we haven't eastern scratched the surface. that cbo report was probably conservative. note blishgs the obama administration underands in delaying the law how bad the job loss will be from this. cbo is a static view of it, not a dynamic scoring of what's going to happen. >> you liked the cbo last week. >> i hope i haven't drowned the audience in numbers, i think you

gethe point. i apologize. you think all the winter blasts are doing a number on your hating bills? wait until you see what a new regulation to fight global warming may do to electric bills. you're about to get electricphied. that's coming up.

♪guitar music whoa, dude! ♪ople see you having fun♪ are you thinking what i'm thinking? ♪just a-lying in the sun♪ yea, i'm gonna cut the gap. ♪tell them that you like it this way♪ yea, (laughs), sweet! ♪it's the work that we avoid♪ i'm gonna get it. i'm gonna get it! ♪and we're all self-employed♪ m goin in ♪we love to work at nothinll day♪ ♪and we've been taking care of business♪ ♪it's all right whew! ♪taking care of business, saved the day! 1:00 p.m. eastern here on fox. now back to "forbes." are you tired of the winter

storms jacking up your heating bills? now there's a different kind of storm brewing in d.c. that may give electric bills a rea jolt. try an 80% jolt. testimony by an obama energy official exposing that shocking number. it's all stemming from a new epa rule for cool-pered plants in the name of fighting global warming and another example of social engineering tha ignores the real cost to all of us. let me just playou a sound bi from the president when he was running for president back in 2008, about what he thought, really thought, about coal energy. >> if somebody wants to build a coal powered plt they can. it's just it will bnkrupt th. >> that's exactly, mike,hat's happened to a lot of companies. >> david, one of the few promises president obama made good on. many plants shut down. jobs lost and coal production in the country also down. meanwhile, many cronies, know nothing about energy, nerve her a private sector job, funneled hundreds of millions of dollars

into these newfangled types of inrmation companies that hve gone bankrupt like nevada geothermal that collapsed under its own weight because it couldn't me any money. >> a great examp. not much of experience in th cabinet. you say it's aood deal energy bills are going on? why? >> sort f. coal is dirty. the people who bought it ought to pay for the damage it caused to the re of us. there is zero support for a carbon tax. the president is resorting to harassment of the coal industry. i don't like harassment. it's inefficient. i'd rather ha a tax. if you're burning coal when you turn on ur ac, you should be paying more. >> fact is people are already paying more. people have seen their heating bills go up and now will see them go up further? >> it shouldn't be a bureaucrat deciding what energy you use. le the free markets work. they're free people. this is an example of the president's 1%. in this se, elitest imposing

1% of energy of things like ethanol, things like solar power, and wind power, stu that couldn't do it on its own. they're forcing that source of a 1% of our energy, forcing that on the rest of us at the cost of billions are dollars. coal is getting cleaner. coal is cheap. let the markets work. it's freedom. >> and, rick, even if the end result is a positive end result, cleaner air for verybody, again, it sort of reflects this administration's lack of practical experience. mike ozanian was talking about. only four of the 15 cabinet members have any private sector experience, and by the way, two of those, jack lew and hagel -- >> nothing to do with existing coal plants. on n construction of coal plants. the existing coal plants will not races yourrice of energy. number two, energy is delivered on long-term contracts. even if itid skyrocket, then it would not reach you at the home level.

number three, all of those coal companieshat have shut down, you know why? it was free market. they've already been making the transfer to, what? natural gas. not some obama-sponsored hoo-ha. >> look what happens to arch coal, for example. look at a three-year chart for that compy. is practically flatlines now. they're klling the coal companies and jobs. a lot of the democratic senators are against what the administration is doing that dprum coal stas. >> i support the administration's war on coal if nor aun pra tra neural and let the shale oil and gas people and the next generation nuclear people proceed at a faster rate. w york had a big horse manure pollution problem 120 yrs ago, and itwasn't the epa that stoppeit. there was no epa. it was henry ford and automobiles. so you know, wve got to look at this -- got to encourage

entrepreneurship in the pro-energy sectors. >> some would say they have other manure problem inside the beltway now. won't sgee that. the fact is, real jobs are not only heating bills at home, but real jobs and folks who work for coal companies. >> right. coal makes up about 40% of the electricity generated in the united states, and this is another example of a regulation that the president is pushing with little considation for the consequences of it. the fact, this would have massive impacts not just on our personal heating bls but on ctories, transportation, hospitals. all sorts of industries that depend on affordable energy. once again, the administration is pushing out the, picki winners and losers in the energy issue with no consideration for how it will impact americans. >> in terms of the point about new plants, you know when they stop new plants they're going to go after the old and shut them down as well. >> all right. we all have solar energy and windmills to rely on. >> forgetting that natural gas exists. how would you le itf

green protesters showed up on your doorstep? a big worry for everybody. find out why at bottom of the hour. fir, the one thing our nation's city has in common with the "hunger games. the new report that may have you hungry for change.

a little quiz. see if you can get this one. there's one place in america ere people's confidence is positive. zooming in.

there it is. our nation's capital. where else maybe it's because just like the capital in "hunger games," that's where all our hard earned money is flowing steve, it's getting pretty close to the "hunger games" isn't it? >> and going to change it to pan am sometime soonchts the name of the capital in "hunger games." >> washington is looting the rest of the country, washington doesell at the expense of the rest of the country. ableo like al capone extort money from the country while the rest of country struggles. you have the power, you can do it and there is the bomb. hard to fight them. >> rick, throw numbers out there again. the median income in the united states is $51,000 a year. for a family. in d.c., look at this $65,000. what a jump. >> yeah. i'm still contemplating steve's stement that they have the bomb. hard to fight them. i'm going to be careful what i say. there is another -- >> we have your address. >> there's another reason we should contemplate here.

not just the question of people in government getting paid well or people who work with the government. the percentage of people with college degrees is highest in washington, as compared to any other city in the country. maybjust maybe the morals of the story is, if you get a college degree, you make more money, your city makes more money. >> john, the irony of ironies is that you, the consummate libertarian, live in washington. how does it feel? >> he's rich! >> i always thank everyone for building me this beautiful city, but that's the point. federal stimulus has a washington, d.c. address. i wish every voter would visit here so they could see how well we're living off of the rest of the country. government has no resources so when government towns thre, that means they're taking it from the rest of you. >> sabrina, i grew up in washington, d.c. my family are moly democrats, but i've got to tell you, they're getting fed up with all the spending going on. renovations of buildings. the post office museum. things like that. stuff we don't need.

>> critical, of course. you know, what i think washington represents is the critical problem of a progressive state today. right? so we have a state in the business of rewarding sam and taking away from others. there's a lot of people who want their interests protected. you have all sorts of people on industry of communication firms and lobbying firms and contractors and lawyers, all who are there to help represent different industries. that means a lot of money. >> and quickly. short on time. go ahead >> listen, silicon valley has less per capita income and i always say more college degrees than d.c. in other words, d.c. is a higher pecapita income than silicon valley, so we talk the metro area o d.c., it is living high on the hog, and i'll tell you something, when you have a permanent state of emergency in d.c., that creates incentive. >> quickly? >> a sigh and today w have a

hundred million dollars of lobbies. same thing. >> our sigh. pan am. take your pick. coming up,despite this week's up

> we are back. informers have stocks set for a comeback. >> this might turn. i might put a bit of money in . cancer fighting inflammatory disease fighting company. i kind of like it. >> taking investor money 17 years. how many lives saved? >> chesapeake energy?

>> coal is dead. long ling live natural gat. >> buy it only on a dip. that's it for "forbes on fox." have a great weekend. keep i the number one business spot continues with eric bolling and "cashin' in." equality or opportunity? the president insists, the biggest threat to america. >> a dangerous and growing inequality. >> new jersey's governor chris christie begto different. americans don't want equality. >> what they want is income opportunity. >> so which is it, america? should we be country of mars or takers? and then -- home sweet health torch carrying rrorizing an executive at his house. what if it was the only way around, outside of al gore's house. would we have heard tab? plus a free pass to bypass, asking the tough question if you won't, we will. "cashin' in," refusingo