that happened mor quickly than i thought. >> i'll also say, looking very, very beautiful, honored to have her on the show every time she's o. exactly. not exactly how i wanted to show, but -- >> i >> right now. see you later. cooking the oks on obamacare and insurance executives telling fox news the white house enrollment numbers have been enflated. the white house is describing them as this -- >> with the benefit of a full month of janua data, we're able to paint a more holistic picture to date and it's very, very encouraging news. >> encouginencouraging? do the math and let you decide. inflated or not, the white house says 3.3 milon americans enrolled in the private part of obamacare. it said nothing about the 6.2 million getting cancellation notices from their private insurance. a net loss of 2.9 million. so ithat encouraging, or will

obamacare continue to cause more people to lose their coverage than get it? hi, everybody. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." "in focus with stephen and others. are more people losing private insurance than getting it? >> absolutely. the ratio of 2-1, small businesses when theyg in the re tens of millions, several million people certainly are going it lose it there. this thing is just beginning. my dghter, for example, got her policy cacelled. the president said you could have it back but the state of new jers got word from the health and human services department, regardless what the president says, your policy doesn't qualify. overbloated policies. people who like their policies are losing them and it's a burden on the economy. >> rick, numbers show it. a net loss for people getting private insurance? >> ion't think so. as a matter of fact, there's a gallup pl showing a significant drop inuninsure in january last year to january

of this year. that wouldn't be mathematically possible if, in fact, we have more people losing insurance than gaining it. >> hold on a second. let me be a little more specific. we're talking about priva insurance now. half of that number, half of those people, shown on the unsured number, are getting medicaid. that is not private insurance. that is -- that is insurance that taxpayers have to pay for. >> except it doesn't necessarily speak to the poll. >> it does exactly. see to the poll. >> let me throw this into the conversation, since you're going to raisehat. a great many of th people who lost insurance through cancellation, we never talk about the fact those cancellation letters invited people to come back to the company and get a new policy. many of the people who got those cancellations would not qualify for subsidies. so there's no reason for them to shop -- wait. no reason for them to shop on the exchange. millions of those people are buying their policies directly from the company. >> let's just deal with numbers that we know about,nd elizabeth macdonald.

so many politicians throwing around so many phony numbe. dick durbin, senator from illinois, throw around numbers. play a spot of that and get your reaction. >> 10 million americans have health insurce today who would not have had it without the american afford act. million. >> the "washingtonost" gave that four pinocchio noses. we have the numbers and the numbers don't look good. >> a lot of helium in those numbers re than in the hindenburg for what dick durbin just said. they're cooking the books. these are deep fried numbers. >> which numbers are fried? >> you cannotely on a pol of a limited group of people, maybe 1,000 people, to extrapolate what's going on in the entire system. the problem is, insurers don't disclose how many have actually been enrolled. another problem, yo can say 3.2 million, whatever, enrolled, how many have actually paid? maybe just a quarter have paid for their insurance. this is not a seamless transition. talking about people being

transitioning to more expensive plans or on to medicaid, and those medicaid rolls by the way, the cbo says medicaid roll, expected to go up by 9 million, meaning taxpayer costs go up, too. >> another figure we have to put t fr the numbers issued this week, that the age of those people signing up is still focused the older folks. they need the younger folks, and only 25% of the people enrolling are young adults. those are the people that they need to make this system work. >> well, that's right, david, and t cbos own estimates s that in order for obamacare to work to make actuarial sense, march 31st is the deadline. we need enrollees from 25% in the 18 to 24 group to the 40%. that's not going to happen. another flaw makes the numbers cook. somewhere between 20% and 30% of

this 3.3 million that the administration isciting have not paid anything yet. so they're technically not insured. >> you really think they went to that trouble not to pay? >> we will find out,ut there is anoth thing, john that we have to consider here. i don't mn to drown people throughout in numbers, but the numbers are actually dropping. we had 700,000 fewer enrollees in january than we did in december. so the trend shrine not good. the trend line is not good. >> the numbers bring to mind that famous plitical statement that government is so bigto give you everything you want is also big enough to take it away. governmental conceit gave us the obnoxious individual mandate. cause of the expense of such a thing, it means many that want insurance will go without it. the good news, americans are discovering how very cruel is compassionate government. >> saved mike ozaan for last. you have a point to make about

the number of enrollees. go ead. >> i don't really care. cuba, david, everybody signe up for health re, but that's one of the worst health systems in the world. the bottom line for obamacare, david, is that it's financed through higher tags taxes and government rationing, pushing a lot of people in medicd, for example. if you go to see cancer specialist your initial visit for an hour and 15 minutes that doctor gets paid $6.50 an hour. what type of doctors do you think you're going to get to treat kansas whir they were paid 1/10 of what a good plumber gets paid? >> that's point. as bad as th enrolling numbers are, in cuba, everybody has health care, and they have awful health care. we don't want that kind of a system. >> reminds me of an old saying in the former soviet union. the health care is free but you can't get any. they pretoned pay us a we pretend to work. so again the panel is absolutely right. the government can makeromises but it means rationing, and you en up getting -- less for more.

>> the utopian benefits no one can afford while uninsuring the insures t s the. medicaid, $265 billion a year, more system coming into the system via medicaid. those costs will explode. now about the size of kaz kazakhstan's entire company. >> they postpone it for busiss. once it hits business vushgs a catastrophe on your hands. >> right. >> rick unger, the fact the polldone, that we've done on people's attitude about obamacare are not looking good. in fact, 51% of the people polled think that eventually obamacare is going to be a bad thing for the country. only 42% think a good thing? >> which is a lot better than they were. i have to tell you omhing. i'm taking enormous -- >> the eternal optimist! i love your optimism. >>hy i'm really optimistic. i just heard some of the most ridiculous arguments i've heard since the beginning of the obamacare discussion. when i answered your question in

the first segment, and it was correct, what did everybody say? but the price. wee not talking about the price in this segment. but they go to the price, and when the price isn't good enough, liz goes and challenges the poll. >> rick, you know -- let me tell you something. >> hold on a second. rick, you ask question -- because the news we' talking about is the numbers. and the number don't look good, and that is -- hold on. the poll of the insed and uninsured you brought up, half of those people who are now insured have medicaid, and that's something tat we pay for. that's not something that the private sectorabsorbs. >> and more -- >> health reform, if it's so great, why has the administration continue topped delay it? 28 deep lays and counting including delaying the employer mandate? if it's so great? >> answer that question. >> if obamacare so great -- >> why do you have to kp delayingt? go ahead. >> let me answer. it's such a typical spin-off. the law itself could e, and i'm not gointo sit here and argue it is, it could be the greatest

thing since chopped liver. the administration of the law, it's no secret, has been god awful. >> y coukeep using that. >> is that the problem here? your point. the overall concept is go but adnistration is bad? >> no. >> it's like a commust country. the foot goes down because of the weather, not because of the system. reminds of the chancellor of education of new york last week during a snowstorm saying it's a beautiful day. rick, it's a beautiful day. >> and in communism. >> when the private insurance companies are marking a ton of money. >> i think the other thing is, we haven't eastern scratched the surface. that cbo report was probably conservative. note blishgs the obama administration underands in delaying the law how bad the job loss will be from this. cbo is a staticiewof it, t a dynamic scoring of what's going to happen. >> you liked the cbo last ek. >> ihope i haven't drowned the

audience in numbers, i think you get the point. i apologize. you think all the winter blasts are doing a number on your heating bills? wait until you see what a new regulation to fighglobal warming may do to electric bills. you're about toet electricphied. that's coming up. welcome back. how is everything? there's nothing like being your own boss! and my customers are really likiking your flat rate shippin. fedex one rate. really makes my life easier. maybe a promotion is in order. good news. got a new title and a raise?

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1:00 p.m. eastern here on fox. now ck to "forbes." are you tired of the winter

storms jacking up you heating bills? now there's a different kind of storm brewing in d.c. that may give electric b bills a real jo. try an 80% jolt. testimony by an oba energy official exposing that shocking number. it's all stemming from new epa rule for cool-poweredplants in the name of fighting global warming and another example of social engineering that ignores the real cost to all of us. let me just play you a sound bite from the president when he was running for president back in 2008, about what he thought, reallyhought, about coal energy. >> if somebody wants to build a coal powered plant they can. it's just it will bankrupt them. >> that's exactly, mike, what's happened to a lot of comni. >> david, one of theew omises president obama made good on. many pnts shut down. jobs lost and coal productionn the country also down. mewhile, many cronies, know nothing about energy, nerve her a private sector job, funneled hundredsf millions of dollars

into these newfangled types of informionompanies that have gone bankrupt like nevada geothermal that collapsed under its own weight because it couldn't make any money. >> a great example. not mu of experience in the cabinet. you say it's a good deal energy bills are going on? why? >> sort of. coal is dirty. the people who bought it ought to pay for the damage it caused to the rest of us. there is zero support for a carbon tax. the president is resorting to harassment of the co industry. i don't like harassment. it's inefficient. i'rather have a tax. if y're burning coal when you turn on your ac, youshould be paying more. >> the fact is people are already paying more. people have seen their heating bills go up and now will see them go up further? >> it ouldn't be a bureaucrat deciding what energy you use. let the free markets work. they're free people. this is an example of the president's 1% in this case, elitest imposing

1% of energy of things like ethanol, things like solar power, and wind power, stuff that couldn't do it on its own. they're forcing that source of a 1% of our energy, forcing that on the rest of us at the cost of billions are dollars. coal is getting cleer. coal is cheap. let the markets work. it's freedom. >> and, rick, even if the end result is a positive end result, cleaner air for verybody, again, it sort of reflects this administration's lack of practical experience. mike ozanian was talking about. only four of the 15 cabinet members have any private sector experience, and by the way, two of thos jack lew and hagel -- >> nothing to do with existing coal plants. on new cotruction of coal plants. the existing coal plants will not races your price of energy. number two, energy is delived on long-term contracts. even if it did skyrocket, then it would not reach you athe

home level. number three, all of thoseoal companies that have shut down, you know why? it was free market. they've already been making the transfer to, what? natural gas. not someobama-sponsored hoo-ha. >> look what happens torch coal, r example. look at a three-year chart for that coany. is practically flatlines now. they're killing e coal companies and jobs. a lot of the democratic senators are against at the administration is doing that dprum coal states. >> i support the ministration's war on coal if nor aunt pra tra neural and let the shale oil and gas people and the next generation nuclear people proceedt a faster rate. new york had a big horse manure pollution problem 120 years ago, and it wasn't the epa that stopped it. there was no epa. it was henry ford and autobiles. so you know, we've got to look at this -- got to encourage

entrepreneurship in the pro-energy sectors. >> some would say they have another manure problem inside the beltway now. we won't sgee that. the fact is, real jobs are not only heating bills at home, but real jobs and folks who wk for coal companies. >> right. coal makes up about 40% of the electricity generated in the united states, and this is another example of a regulation that the president isushing with little consideration for the consequences of it. the fa, this would have massive impacts not just on our personal heating bills but on factories, transportation, hospitals. all sorts of industries that depend on affordable energy. once again, the administration is pushing out there, picking winners and lose in the energy issue with no consideration for how it will impact americans. >> in terms of the point about new plants, you know when they stop new plants they're going to go after the old and shut them down as well. >> all right. we all have solar energy and windmills to rely on. >> forgetting that natural gas exists. how would you like it if

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a little quiz. see if you can get this one. there's one place in americ where people's confidence is

positive. zooming in. there it is. r nation's capital. whe else? maybe it's because just like the capital in "hunger games," that's where all our hard earned money is flowing. steve, it's getting pretty close to the "hunger games" isn't it? >> and going to change it to pan am sometime soonchtshe name of the capital in "hunger games." >> washington is oting the re of the country, washington does well at the expense of the rest of the couny. able to like al capone extort money from the country while the rest of country struggles. you have the power, you can do it and there is the bomb. hard to fight them. >> rick, throw numbers out there again. the median income in the united stes is $51,000 a year. for a family. in d.c., look at this $65,000. what a jump. >> yeah. i'm still contemplating steve's statement that they have the bomb. hard to fight them. i'm going to be careful what i say. there is another -- >> we have your address. >> there's another reason we

should contemplate here. not just the question of people in government getting paid well or people who work with the government. the percentage of people with college degrees is highest in washington, compared to any other city in the country. maybe just maybe the morals of the ory is, if you get a college degree, you make more money, your city makes more money. >> john, the irony of ironies is that you, the consummate libertarian, livin washington. how does it feel? >> he's rich! >> i always thank everyone for building me this beautiful city, but that's the point. federal stimulus has a washington, d.c. address. i wish every voter would visit here so they could see how well we're living off of thest of the country. governme has no resrces so when government towns thrive, that means they're taking it from the rest of you. >> sabrina, i grew up in washington, d.c. my family e mostly demrats, but i've got to tell you, they're getting fed up wi all the spending going on. renovations of buildings. the post office museum. things like that.

stuff we don't need. >> critical, ofourse. you know, what i think washington represents is the critical problem of a progressive state today. right? so we have a state inhe business of rewarding sam and taking away from others. there's a lot of people who want their interests protected. you have all sorts of people on industry of communication firms and lobbying firm and contractors and lawyers, all who are there to hlp represent different industries. that means a lot of money. >> and quickly. short on time. go ahead >> listen, silicon valley has less per capita income and i always say more college degrees than d.c. in oer wordsd.c. is a higher per capitancome than silicon valley, so we talk the metro areaf d.c., it is living high on the hog, and i'll tell you something, when you have a permanent state of emergency in d.c., that creates incentive. >> quickly? >> a sigh and today we have a

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>> chesapeake energy? >> coal is dead. long ling live natural gat. >> buy it only on a dip. that's it for "forbes on fox." have a great weekend. th numb one busess spot continuewith eric bolling and "cashin' in." equality or opportunity? the president insists, e biggest threat to america. >> a dangerous and growing inequality. >> new jersey's governor chris christie begs to different. americans don't want equality. >> what they want is income opportunity. >> so which is it, america? should we be a country of makers or takers? and then -- home sweet health torch carrying terrorizinan executive a his house. what if it was the only way around, outside of al gore's house. would we have heard tab? plus a free pass to bypass, asking the tough questions. if you won't, we will. "cashin' in," refusing to