lls to va. america's heroes need you. visit vacareers.va.gov could split the country in two. >> keep it here for more coverage in ukraine. join us afr the show now. see you tomorrow. >> here we go again. with our debt still going off the charts. a push to spend even more of your tax dollars and back on. president obama calling for $56 billion in new spending on everything from more green initiatives to new manufacturing institutes. this on the heels of some republicans helping to hike the debt limit. so what part of we are bro doest washington understand? hi, everyone, this is "bulls an bears." i'm brenda butner. the bulls.

welcome everybody. johncan we afford more spending? >> no, we can. we got to shut this down at some point. look, earneaearnst and bulls cae out, the president and republicans both debunked it, said they didn't like it. they haven't seen it yet. they don't want to cut spending or entileletments. we are going at a rate national debt in 2000. we're at 10 trillion if 2008. we are going to dble it again by 2016. we are doubleing our de every eight years andhere is no entitlement reform in place. we all got fe pizza. look, if rates go back up to 5, 6%, we are? significant trouble. we have got to reign this in at some point. >> heck. $17 trillion in debt can we afford to spend on top of that? >> look. e american people want results and do we have a debt problem?

absolutely. the problem is not today. it's kind of to john's point. we've had aroblem all along. we had a medicare part d or unfunded war. the congress is writing connection, we ain had no money in the bank. i'll be if i will let them bankrupt the american worker on this back end. we need to make sure everybody pays their fair share. we also should keep our debt in mind. >> gary b. haven't we seen this movie before? i mean, job initiatives manufacturing institutes. green spending. it can work. >> exactly, enda, you know, chuck mentioned the american people want results. i agree, they want result, unfortunately, as you imply, the u.s. government hasn't given those results. e g programs that they have social security, medicare, medicaid are fille with fraud and overbget. then you have other things where they waste money like amtrak, which loses money every day. they can't even make money with

a virtual monopoly in the u.s. postalservice. big projects by the government are inherently loaded with por and bloat and a high government pensions. they just don't work. so if i give a dollar to the government, it comes back to me in the form of about 80 cents or. so add that to the statistics that john gaves running up a debt that we can't pay. my gosh, weill be spending $8 billion a year on interest payments alone. this madne has to stop. it's a pox on bothparties. >> that's true. both aisles are definitely at fault here. tracy what do you thnk? >> to gary's point, maybean initiative that has worked, bren dark, right? help for homeowners, not so much. cash for clnkers, find me a shovel-ready project that was shovel-rea or completed. nothing is working that they've done. so why not let corporate america finally take the reigns, themself, do this on their own, unless of cose they will fund the pothole repairs near new

york city. stay the hell out of business. >> i think we will all support that. checks of $56 billion, can we afford it? >> no, we can't afford it. also, we can't afford to put any more burden onur working poor or on the working people paying the majority of the tacks as we go forward. as the american people, n in politics for a living. they want to see clear reults. they don't want to see the burden shifted to one class or another. they don't want to see peoe working every single day having to pay all the bills, when the people who are rich who can afford tax lp homes to g rough this. >> how d these initiatives help we are talking about green spending, more manufacturing initiatives. >> it seems to me like manufacturing initiatives will be good at bringing jobs back here, instead of shiing the blame, moving all of those jobs overseas, if we can invest here. >> manufacturing is dent, chuck. come on now. >> don't tell the american

people that manufturing is dead, because if we don't have manufacturing, that's fine. will you turn your back on the american people, we will never be able to produce anything in america. >> you are not turning your back on peoe who make horseshoes, they have moved on. >> they are the ones that build everything you drive your car through. >> you are not giving american credit. sir. you know what, there are entrepreneurs in their basementes trying to figure out what they want. people leak you are holding them ck. >> no, you are holding them back, you don't want them to do their job. >> they should make horseshoes. jonas. >> they are holding them back. it is worth noteing the income tax credit. getting back to the actual point. we were on a trend in governme. yes, they were raising taxes on upper income people. there were se spending cuts. the deficit is a lot lower than it was a few years ago. that all got scrapped. we were going to do this thing when they anged the social

security formula, a big hole for government. they were going to raise more tacks, that deal making seems to be gone now. now it's the old i'll spend on thgreen initiatives, you get a defense spending budget. >> that les to more spending with which we can't afford. i think we can solve these prlems in a neutral way. lower income tax to offset it. >> that will discourage, consume the energy and encourage working. you can't spend money on credits here and more defense spending to get other people to vote for it. that's the old way government works. that's how you get the deficits. >> john, how are you going to break the cycle of debt if we increase snding, $56 billion? >> we are not. nobody wants to deal when titlementes. president obama says he is not going to deal when titlementes based on what he said. >> that is our probable. look, we can cut discretionary spending and military spending to zero. we are running a deficit in our country, based on entitlements and mandatory spending.

look, the reason manufacturing is starting resurgen is because of fracking. fracking brought down natural gas. that was an old tax break given to an oil company and we said all these evil oil companies, let's cut out our tax breaks. okay, great, do it. you will sab about $4 billion. president obama says he's going to cut, pay for this by closing loopholes. that is ridiculous. this is a hat track, a hat trick that a magician is trying to pull, pull the wool over america's eyes. it's not working. >> okay. chuck, take on john. >> i don't want to take on john, let's be clear aut that right now. i agree, there is engh blame to go around for everybody. i think the way you handle your checkbook at home. you have to tighten the belt if there isn't enough money in the bank. you have to invest in the future to make sure you have a living. >> that's the thing. i don't think we are. we are just giving it out, welfare checks all around. food stamps to whoever needs them these days.

we are not telling peek to go home and do something for this country. technologys on the rise, man, let's go for it why do we have to ha the white house to help us? we don't need them. their job is to protect us as a nation. don't cut defense spending. that's how i want them to spend money. i want you out of corporate america. man, there are so many srt people out there that can do this on their own without the terference of the government. >> gary b. >> when chuck says we need to invest in america, that's lefty speafor the government spending more. how about going about it the other way, how about cutting taxes and givinghat money back to the american public so we can have the next andrew carnegie or andrew ford who by the way didn't need manufacturing initiatives to run and bring up some of the greatest corporations we've ever had. >> jonas. >> it's worth saying the new andrew carnegie is lke thisid at sold out to facebook for multi -- i won't say his family was on welfare on food stamps in

this country. there are cases this leads to future growth in america. we also waste a lot of money. it's not so obvious where the wae is going in the budget, necessarily. >> okay. thanks, guys. so, he's known for dirty jobs, now mike rose's name is getting dragd through the mud by wal-mart critics all because he supports wal-mart's plan toet this, buy american-made goods. what is wrong with that? neil's gang is debating it at the bottom of the hour. up first, a new study showing obama tax is about to make health care premiums spike. so is it any wonder democrats are at a loss for words? >> a part of the affordable [ male announcer ] if you're taking multiple medications,

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and bears" on the fox news channel the most powerful name in news. have a great day. so, remember this? >> what i pledge to do as a candidate and save a typical family an average of $2,500 on their health care costs in the coming years. >> well, mayb not. >> a part of the affordable health care act is to save $2500. what happened? [ laughter ] so even democrats are stumped d it may be about to get worse. a new study saying obamacare multibillion dollar tax on insurance companies is going to slam consers right in the

wallets. tracy, get ready for the premium hikes. >> yeah, you could have seen this coming a mime. corporations are not going to suck up the difference if their expenses are going up. heck, no, they're going to pass them right on so family can expect premiums to go up $260 a year. individuals expect about a $160 bump in your premiums as well. >> that will just get worse from there. this is how corporate america works unfortately. it is going to be passed onto the consumer. hold oto your cash while you can. >> that's what companies have to do, chuck, isn't it? if they get hit with more taxes or whtever? they've got to go down and hit the consumer at some point? >> luckily today, price waterhouse put out a study sayingverage premiums went down 4% becaus of the affordable health care act. i think it's good a lot more people are signing up for health care. i think this law is being enacted. i think you will see lots and lots of people feeling the way i

do. >> gary b., do you >> i would like to s that report. i don't question chuck's facts there. i would like to see that for myself. every report i are seen say the average premiums will go up. what will happen, brenda, th whole law was built on these young people volunteering to pay the higher premiums. that's not happening. so these insurance companies are left to hold you in e bag if you will. i think what will happen is there is going to be an insurance company bailout. you knowho will pay for that. us, brenda, through taxes. but here's the problem. the irs has no way to collect those taxes. pele say, you know what, i'm not paying that he can heck tax. there is nowhere in the provision for the irs to gnish wages or any of this other stuff. it will fall apart. it will be a mess. maybe the right's best way is to let it sa down and implode on its own. >> jo narcs bad for some people, good for others? is that your take? >> yeah the average consumer, it'sard to know. i will say the above average consumer of health care, whether

you are older or near medicare age or not quite there or are you a frequent flyer in the health care industry as they call you. you are not going to see the cost of this. the below average consumer of health care, whether fit, healthy, eat right, young, that person is going to be paying for the other person' increased health care coverage because it is mandateing in its simplicity more health coverage and better health coverage with no caps. somebody has to pick up that tab. the a.l. got tapped with being politically incorrect. that's going to get passed on to other health insurance, people who don't have bills like that. it's bakally capital communism in a way. >> fit, healthy, eat right. i got to go to john for that. how bass is this going to get? >> i think it will get significantly worse. only time will tell 20 years out if this is a good law or not. right now it looks like it ll get much worse.

i was an investment banker for yeempls these are very conservativestimates. we are all going to be billionaires in about two years. like mike tyson says, everybody has a plan until you get pnched in the mouth. these guyslanned on a rosy scenario that everybody is going to sign up. it's all going to be free. that's not going to happen. we will se fewer doctors, higher premiums. this will be paid for through taxes. >> last word. thanks, guys. so the non-partisan ceo delivering a blow to the democrat's push to hike the minimum wage. it'sredicting massive job losses. if that's the ca, is it tim to scrap the minimum wage all together? so i can reach ally bank 24/7, but there are no branches?

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. >> you heard it here first that all these calls for pay hikes ll backfire and now the want congressional budget office is confirming it, predicting the president's push to hike the wage to $10.10 an hour will bring a half million job losses. gary b., that's why you are saying scrap it altogether? >> i know, brenda, and before people on the left say, my gosh, that heartless gary smith how can you scrap the minimum wage? i went around and searched to see if any other developed country scrapped the minimum wage. in fact, switzerland has no minimum wage. now, look, it's interesting. switzerland's unemploymyment re is 3%. so you say, well, surely then,

they have a high poverty rate. no, their poverty rate is less than half ours at 7%. ours is about 16%. in fact, california, which has a higher than the 7-whatever $1 per hour min muj u mum wage than $8 has a 3% unemployment rate. switzerland has the highest weth per capita in the world. my gosh, if switzerland can do it, doesn't it make sense we should try it? >> chuck, what do you think out that? >> that's where i keep all my money over in switzerland, i'm sure that's the reas why everybody is like that. but the facts are the facts. the probm with this ceo, it might be a half a million, it might be a million. how do you say my chicken's butt. the facts are it would lift 900,000 out of profit. i realize that isn't how corporate america works. you should be able to pay em what you want to pay them. that's the facts.

it would be good for america. >> if you inceo es t price of something, don't you decrease the demand? >> yes, i'm still confused about the mice on a chicken butt. i don't know much about chickens, chuck. >> you are from texas. you should know. >> chuck and i speak the same language. i'm kit kidding. look, i'm not for dropping the minim wage. i'm for linking it to inflation and a basket of wages. it goes up or down according to what the market should bear. they take it out of politics and union's hands. >> jonas, what do youthink? get ri of it? >> first of all, jan has crazy minimum wages. you can't look at what another country does. you have to look at amica. we don't know the ceo thing is a guesstimate. it could be people out of work. we have to do it to see what happens, gary is right in the sense we don't 93 need it

because the statesave more constituonal. they can set it based on local cost of living. but i will give you for it that makes no economic sense. the perception of fairness, they can't capture this in a ceo report. when you look at the revolutions of history, russiand france, it's because they didn't have labor laws. i wonder if things still have royalty and they have minimum wage. all the countries with royal families have minimum wage. you avoid a revolution and a maximum wage. it's a 90% top tax bracket. don't bring those back. get people minimum wageo do that. >> we will keep that clip. this makes no economic sense. >> tracy, go ahead. >> but what makes no economic sense is we do studies. they could really pour a cup of coffee and watch us on saturday morning. we have been saying all along that raising the nimum wage

hurts jobs. it doesn't create them. i get the notion that everyone needs a starting point. but that is what it is. it is a starting point. you should not aspire to go to the grave making minimum wage and so we really need to get people to think big picture around here. forget the minimum wage. let's get you in the door, man, i want to be. i want my kids to want to be the next steve job, not the guy that makes minimum wage until death do us part. >> okay. last word. thanks, guys. and thank you, chuck, for joining us. we like having you. >> thank you all. >> up next. if your kids gets out, get ready to shell out. [ male announc ] a body at rest tends to stay arest... while a body in moon nds to stay in motion. staying active can ease arthritis symptoms.

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. >> predictions, gary b, you're up. >> bren zsa, housing is slumpings home repairs aren't. i like home depot. >> jonas bull or bear? >> bear. >> john your prediction. >> beef prices up, the answer good fried southern yard burn, fried foods up 20% on the year. >> gary, are you a bull or bea >> i'm a bear right now, brenda. >> okay. tracy. >> all right. so if your school, watch out, you pay get a ticket or a fine. i think it's a pretty good idea. keep the kids in school, make them pay. >> jonas, prediction. >> an enterpriseing young girl scout solder koom cookies in colorado outside a medical

marijuana dispensary. the smartest minds in arica are unching mint chocolate toothpaste when pot is legal to get ono this enhanced taste 20% in the year. >> how people don't pot people don't brush. >> neil cavuto next. >> well, not afraid of dirty dogs, now people are inging mud because h's supporting wal-mart jobs. it is the ad that is dring wal-mart critics mad. >> we're still he and i believe i wi rise again. we will build things and build families and build dreams. >> does that voice sound familiar? it's dirty star microe, he is getting grief with the ad and the name. >> i am using wal-mart to tlk about the fact that in my own humb opinion