i don't guarantee it will go up by tax time. >> i don't know what the impact knows that ben doesn't know -- >> great line. >> $5 trillion in sales, they have to make money. >> all of these guys are terribly brilliant or we wouldn't be here. we roll on. coverup, a house committee releasing a scathing report over former irs official lois lerner's involvement in the targeting scandal, is considering holding her in contempt. even without her testimony -- these e-mails from learner are the smoking gun. calling tea party groups dangerous and showing it wasn't just rogue irs workers in cincinnati, a claim the administration kept making, including the president. >> you've got an office in cincinnati in the irs office that i think for bureaucratic reasons is trying to streamline

what is difficult to interpret whether nonprofit is actually a political organization. >> but lerner said cincinnati should not be included in all this. so is it time for the white house to come clean. i'm david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." we have steve forbes, mike oh, sane yan, elizabeth mcdonald, and john tanny. john, the white house was dumping all this on cincinnati but the lerner memos show she wanted to keep them out of it. >> the reality is that the course of history may have been changed by the irs' actions. groups formed influenced the 2012, to blunt the obamacare ground game were muzzled by the irs. this could have changed lector yal results, legislative results. the administration has to come clean about what it knew and what it did. >> the president said there's not a smidgen of scandal here.

looks like more than a smidgen. wouldn't you say? >> look, you have to point out here, lois lerner does not and did not work for the white house. that's number one. the question presumes that this couldn't have happened without white house knowledge, and yet i actually went back and reviewed it, it was a good opportunity to do it. so far nobody has stepped forward with any evidence that links the white house to any of the things that ms. lerner or cincinnati or anybody were doing here. aren't we jumping the gun? you are innocent until proven guilty. >> but there's a lot more evidence coming out. the timing of the, the 2012, the republicans were designated. it was just about that time that the irs targeted coinciden coincidence? >> exactly. i'd love to be able to live in a world like rick unger does. you cover your eyes and your ears and accept the narrative that's out there without getting

a special prosecutor to tell us what happened about the white house's potential government. are a government by the people and for the people. this isn't by the government for the government. the perspective, what is going on with the dna of our government where we're allowing the irs to behave like this without any checks and balance, without a special prosecutor to get to the bottom of the shiefling of political dissent. >> bruce, the fact is that the white house and their mignons have been throwing one office and a group of people working in cincinnati under the bus when, in fact, it went much higher than that. the cincinnati people aren't taking it lightly. there's a woman named elizabeth hoffenger who worked in that office and here's what she had to say about being thrown under the bus. >> i was deep ll lly offended. i felt like it was a nuclear strike, like they were blaming us. >> bruce, you shouldn't be able

to get away with that, should you? >> i do agree with rick that we don't have a shred of evidence yet relative to the white house and i think this does potentially give other irs workers who didn't have anything to do with anything in cincinnati, whatever happened, but i think the chairman blew it in the last week because he pulled the plug on the microphone of the democrat who -- we don't even know what he was going to say. >> eli sha cummings. >> it was a political story and then you have the white house saying it's politics. >> what's more important, decorum during a hearing or getting to what happened? >> i apologize for that hissy fit. it was a mistake but the it was a side show. there hasn't been much evidence because there hasn't been much of an investigation. the justice department made sure

that didn't happen. all these incriminating memos, it's a whitewash and that's why, sadly, we need a special prosecutor, things that i hate. you saw that smug interview the president had with o'reilly saying there's not a smidgen of corruption and nixon said he knew nothing about watergate. >> let's play that sound bite. >> you're saying no corruption? >> no. there were bonehead decisions. >> but no mass corruption? >> not even a smidgen of corruption. >> mike, the fact is that ice's report that came out this week mentions a lot of inconsistencies. it looks like lois lerner committed percentage. in february of 2012 she testified that she never changed the criteria for tax exempt organizations but they found a memo from june 2011 in which she directed the criteria to be changed. that sounds like purge. that's more than a smidgen. >> when i look at this obama

administration, you got to look at the broad pattern here to see how much they deceive and lie, right? they never told the truth about benghazi. they deceived us on that. the president himself lied for years about obamacare. er eric holder was held for the gun smuggling in mexico. they have no cred ability at all. right up to the president they knew what was going on with the irs. they lie and deceive about everything. >> rick, i got to ask, it's a hypothetical but if this was being done by the republican administration, do you think that you would be calling for a special prosecutor with all of this evidence that's been leaking out? >> actually, i would, and this may surprise you. i actually agree with lizzy more than you might think. i think we should have a special prosecutor, and one of the things i would like about that is that a special prosecutor

would easily discern between lois lerner and the white house. i think it's a really bad idea that we are con flating those two. i'm actually all for a special prosecutor. >> the irs works for the treasury department and the irs council is a political appointee. when asked during congress what do you know about this he said i don't know, 80 times. doesn't that tell you that something weird is going on here? >> it came from the white house. >> hold on a second. i want to get to john's point which is very important. there was a political election that may have been influenced by what the irs was doing. we saw the political power of the tea party in 2010. it was enormous. it wasn't used by any means, maybe that was the republicans' fault, but this could have affected the outcome of the 2012 election, no? >> you had organizations mobilized, volunteer organizations mobilized, it made

a huge difference in 2010 and the white house knew they were in trouble in 2012 and had to e mass ka late these organizations and they did. they were much more concerned about going out and doing their job and more concerned with staying out of white house. the white house, the fact that they appointed somebody who made political contributions to the president to do the investigation, come on. >> even rick thought this was ridiculous. hold on a second. i want to get back to john because he brought up this point. john, do you think that had the tea party not been focused on the way it was by the irs, they could have had more effect in the 2012 election campaign? >> i think your question, your point answers it. of course. look what happened in the 2010 elections. so there's a very real incentive to blunt the actions of these groups. the idea that there's not a smidgen of evidence, in there were no evidence the obamacare administration would be forthcoming with the details and

calling for a special prosecutor. >> who said they haven't been? you're assuming they haven't been forthcoming. >> they are hoping to change the subject. >> wait. your presumption continues to be that they know something they aren't telling us. >> where are the e-mails, rick? where are the e-mails and memos? >> all the e-mails that have been subpoenaed by the irs haven't been turned over because they're incriminating. >> let me ask you something. >> quickly, rick. >> of course. so does everybody. has anybody yet, anybody, come forward to say that the white house told them to do something? nobody. look, we have an american system of justice, like it or not. >> memo after memo that is contradicting what has been said under testimony. there's a word for that, rick. you know the legal term. it's called perjury. these are high officials.

as long as there's suspicion of perjury, i think we need an investigation. even rick thinks. we have seen plenty of protests before but not like this one, why big labor is this one, why big labor is fighting a $100 million donation ...return on investment wall isn't a street... isn't the only return i'm looking forward to... for some, every dollar is earned with sweat, sacrifice, courage. which is why usaa is honored to help our members with everything from investing for retirement to saving for college. our commitment to current and former military members and their families is without equal.

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it. now back to "forbes on fox." so you think a $100 million donation to a hospital would be a good thing, right?

wrong. some union members actually protesting a $100 million donation for the new york presbyterian hospital. why? it's because the contribution came from philanthropist and industrialist david koch who supports conservative causes. steve, you say this is exactly why unions are losing support over america. >> they're more interested in political power than they are in improving the standard of living for their workers. otherwise they wouldn't engage in this kind of thing. it shows they've become unhinged when they go after david giving $100 million to the hospital. it helps the poor, workers, creates jobs and helps health care. but it's all about politics like thing maxists in the 19th century. >> we reached out to one of the unions supporting this protest. they say we fully support donations to health care facilities but at the same time we're committed to making sure

that all communities have access to good jobs and quality health care. we're deeply concerned that the anti-ideology of koch may have a negative impact on the hospital. 30% of their industries are unionized. they have a pretty good relationship with their workers. >> just so everybody understands, the reason the sciu did this ts they're concerned that the kochs would use their influence there to get rid of the unions working at the hospital. we don't know that that is true. there's an irony here, the kochs are spending millions of dollars trying to defeat obamacare despite the fact that it exists. they got involved with a misrepresentation in an ad. how do you dislike somebody who gives $100 million to the hospital. i wish they would have given it to the safety hospitals in new york. >> they are trying to prevent a government takeover of health care. that's how they put it. here's how david koch put their

views about the protest. they said david koch is pleased to support new york presbyterian to help build the ambulatory care center that will enable the hospital to provide quality health care to even more people. mike, they're taking the high road. >> this was a dumb move politically and economicicly. it shows how brazen they are in protecting their own self-interests. economically that 100 mlgds could have been used for people who really need it. >> bruce, while the kochs are taking the high road, look who's taking the low road. it was seen in the united states senate by senator harry reid. play the clip. >> the koch brothers are willing to do anything, even exploit americans suffering from cancer to advance their campaign of distortion. >> talk about low road. you can't get lower than that.

>> well, senator reid does get a lot of support from the service employees international union and i don't really think this is so much about the unions deteriorating. health care partly because of obamacare is fertile ground for union organizers because there are going to be more and more jobs created in health care to treat all these paying patients, if you will. i am a little surprised that the koch brothers -- $100 million to them, this is a rounding error for them. >> in anybody's book that's a lot. it's hard to cut a $100 million check. the fact that what this shows is that unions are more interested in politics than about helping people, whether it concerns jobs or health care. >> it seems that way. i'm wondering when is the irs going to scream for the words union or sciu. what harry reid said doesn't fit on a bumper sticker. this move by the koch brothers will help the poor. i spent time at this hospital. they do help out the poor. it would create nursing jobs as

well. that's the irony. >> john, i got to agree and say when my wife was last there, she was sharing a room with a homeless woman. they take care of the poor, the rich, everybody in between. >> absolutely. and it should be stressed that the koch brothers are trying to protect americans from substandard health care programs designed by the federal government. there's a big difference there. more broadly, when you look at the money, this speaks to why the unions are going the way of the beta max. if george sorros would have given it, no one would have said anything. >> rick, you think of the unions that were supporting this protest. at least some of that $100 million is going to create jobs, right, for the unions? >> it probably would. again, they're afraid that the jobs won't be union. i got to disagree with lizzy on something and let me get it out before you jump on me.

new york presbyterian is not there to help the poor. i've been there. i've operated in there. i've been in the emergency room. not only that they have one of the worst records in the country of charging full rate card to the uninsured and then suing them. >> i got to say when my wife was last there, her roommate was a homeless woman so they do take care of the poor and the wealthy. coming up a barber shop refusing to serve pot heads. is it really about making a good business decision. >> when a mother calls, we don't (vo) you are a business pro. seeker of the sublime. you can separate runway diculousness...

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i'm sure you've seen the signs, no shoes, no service, but what about no sticking pot heads? a barber shop in colorado telling customers who reek of marijuana to go elsewhere. they're burned up over the rule saying it violates their state constitutional rights. steve, you say the owner has this one right. how so? >> first of all, it's not about sexual orientation, race or religion. it's about what you wear and go into that store smelling like. if you stink, why should the store have to serve you? it's good for business, families like to go there and knowing they're not going to have to -- >> bruce, a lot of mothers have been smelling pot on their kids when they come back from a haircut. they don't like that and the kids are afraid that moms are going to think they did it.

>> i plead the fifth because my mom is a big fox viewer but you could be turning down a big potential business here. i don't know if it's a good business decision. you might get a lot of big tipping dopeheads coming into your store. you don't really know what the market of this group is going to be so you might want to be careful of just how you deal with this growing group of people. >> i kind of agree with bruce. maybe the barber shop can charge $500 haircuts like senator john edwards did. i agree with steve actually, children were affected by the marijuana. >> when kids are involved you want to take exception, right? >> you know what, kids aren't involved. they're not smoking a joint. they're walking into a place where somebody smells bad. i walk into a lot of places where kids smell bad. i wonder if these guys ever had a drink and went into a walmart?

>> i got two words for you and rick, that's contact high. sometimes you can do that. go ahead, mike. >> you got to actually be smoking. >> you'll probably end up with two kinds of barber shops, one like leave and elizabeth described where they don't have to smell marijuana but others where they do. maybe they'll sell cupcakes, oreos. >> whether or not it's good for business is not the point. in the u.s. we have property rights. you if you don't want to should have someone you haven't have to. this is america. >> this is indeed america, as strong as it has become. are role models like these a big reason young adults in the labor market is near a 40 year low? low? >> first,

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>> wtr? >> i think that's going to be good. >> water the new oil? >> yeah, it's working with waste water, too. i like it, buy it. >> that's it for "forbes on fox." thanks for watching. the number one business clock continues with "cashin' in." stay tuned. parts of the world on fire and obamacare is flat lining here at home. where is president obama? >> do you send ambassador rodman on your behalf? >> mr. president, the stuff is hitting the fan. should you be yub yuking it up with comedians or working? plus are young celebrities like this bad role model for kids? you're acting like a spoiled brat, your buddy lindsey is a loon and miley is a