lou@loudobbs.com. and free copies of my book "upheaval" to those whose tweets and e-mail posts are read on this >> people are going to do it whether you like it or not. >> seeking immediate action. >> gambling is popular. >> it has negative consequences that began to ripple through society. >> my poker game would be a crime in half the state. the one we have people arrested for gambling when it is okay for the state to sell lottery tickets.

>> this is our show tonight. ♪ ♪ >> now it is time for john stossel. john: i like to gamble. we want to bet on whether hillary clinton will become president with the stock market will go up on thursday? i will take any bet as long as the odds seem fair. supposedly more than 100 million americans filled out march madness brackets. totaling about 12 elion, that's more than the super bowl. and according to our new reading of federal and state law, betting on those brackets is illegal. it is illegal in nevada and montana because of an old law and a smalltime pool among friends that are allowed in vermont and connecticut.

otherwise betting on march madness is a we illegal. so why even have a? because it makes some people feel good? >> should betting on sports be allowed? >> never. >> it encourages people to spend money. >> i really think that this is a fundamental moral issue and you have to make a stand here, even as i am standing now. >> it causes people to lose control. patrick basham says chill out. he says gambling is a healthy bad. what do you mean? >> it's good for emotional

health and physical health. they provide social interaction. all kinds ofsiological benefit. older people who gamble have less alcoholism, less depression. there's all kinds of things. >> i am convinced. especially when you lead with the march madness. now it is becoming a dominating national headline. weisbach? because government has made gambling the way it communicates to citizens on a daily basis. what else is government advertised? casinos, lotteries, that is why you the march madness but you have today. john: what is the government connection to march madness? >> we have gone from gambling being a private and local activity with a group of friends and now with government constantly advertising gambling to society, we have created a culture where gambling dominates the headlines.

>> your group is titled stop predatory gambling. what would you do? >> our mission is to get government out of the gambling business. >> when you do a commercial, it's different than your friday night poker game. this is being done is a commercial enterprise. governments are actively cheating and exploiting citizens. if we encourage citizens to go against probability. you have them spending billions of dollars on this stuff are in. >> we will get to this later in the show. but let's stick to march madness are in april are batting a thousand dollars to win $60,000, should that be allowed? >> if you're not doing it for for profit, not to sell out. >> the ncaa says these types of tools are often the entry point and fans should enjoy following the tournament. not for the amount of moneyy thy could possibly when.

>> i would actually say that it is our focus, if it is on the juice lee gambling, whatever we think the level of that is, what we know from the researches that later in life that one starts to gamble for the first time, you a developer problem and that problem will be more severe. and yet if you are involved in sports, you can get in big trouble at the university. one individual was fired and he described it as just a gathering with friends. >> it's a victimless crime. if you're not betting against your own team. i don't see how it is anyone's business. >> at the time the universitof washington was looking for a reason to file.

>> we were teaching kids managing risk of gambling. there's a difference but teaching them how to be responsible versus encouraging them to lose their money in a bad scam. it's like sitting to your children and encouraging them to play videocam that they have no chance of winning. >> we are not talking about commercial gambling. >> some gamblers win. and gambling teaches kids math skills, which this country needs in problem solving. >> we are much more interested in playing poker and learning odds than sitting in class. >> think there's a gambling interests that is pinpointing poker. the average person they say that it seems like such a harmless game. so our kids and grandchildren, you know, that is the focus. that is what the fight is about. >> what this gets to is

fundamentally that there are people in our society in positions of power who think there is an amount of money, for example, that i should or should not be able to use these memos and suddenly it should be bad for me and everyone around me. it is elitism, condescending, and it's not what i think this country is all about. >> i agree. but i thought that he would win. >> wow. >> after i won this pot i asked my poker buddies, what do you think of the loss of protect people? >> we are intelligent enough to know i women. and we are leaving the government out of it.

>> we are not always strong enough are able to govern ourselves. >> the addictive element of gambling forces the government to step in. >> that is stupid. smoking cigarettes is an addictive behavior. >> half of the states ban gambling like that with friends in your home. and that gives the police power to enforce it on people they don't like. what are your thoughts? >> the friday night poker game, leaving it in the privacy of their own home. >> you worry about people that have a gambling problem? >> absolutely. and you're not putting a lien on someone's house.

but that is across the line. it's predatory. >> it is a business model. forty to 60% of their profits come from people who had a problem with it. we're talking about a healthy endeavor. the questions for folks like patrick is how much money they made from people who are from them and as we increase the opportunity to gamble, more of us develop more serious problems and we all go to hell in handbasket. the history of this country and other countries have far more gambling and have done for centuries or it it tells us that there is a natural feeling to this. very are a tiny fracture of the

population. >> the problem gambling did not go out. >> i haven't seen a study that suggests that it doesn't go up. >> addiction is when people lose control, meaning that it takes over their lives that the use money for college wishon or whatever. >> you're say that you're in control. you stick to it limits. >> this is important. the addiction is a layperson's time. what we are really talking about our bad habits. some of which become tragically bad and we are not talking about a medical illness that removes responsibility of self control from an individual.

>> on these guys who promote casinos and the politicians. they don't lose their own money gambling. >> i support the right to gamble, the same as thomas jefferson did. it's far more preferable in all kinds of levels and it's a voluntary tax. john: let's talk about your passion, which is the casino. it's the worst that for the biggest suckers and they are freely choosing to do that. they idea that it's a game that is rigged against the plane off. >> the heart of the issue is that slot machines are legal must government is a partner. those that are actively promoting and exploiting citizens through slot machines.

>> government used to ban gambling. >> it was criminalized. and most people leave you alone because you're not lending people money. no one is jumping off parking rodders like they do at other times. >> your website says addictive gamblers are abandoning their children in casino parking lots. >> and the state of pennsylvania. there have been dozens of instances. >> how many kids were abandoned and hurt? >> elise 20 kids in the past two years. because the casinos are in partnership with government, allowing them to have free play. >> where the kids heard? >> they took the kids away.

of course they were. >> even in the most tragic cases, a problem of pathological gambling is very hard to disentangle with all the things of the things that are going wrong in that person's life or it sometimes i'm the first one to admit that the problem gambling is very often substance-abuse of another kind. the people who get into these problems tend to have difficulties. so let's move onto another way to gamble. >> have you been to the track? most states have a least one. usually they just racehorses, but sometimes they raised dogs. and the only way you can bet on these races used to be to come to the track and place your bet here. of course, some people didn't want to come all the way here. so they've that with bookmaker is illegally. politicians and said that that is difficult.

they steal the public's money. we create off-track betting businesses will promote the public welfare. and so now many states, people can make convenient that at off-track betting storefronts. >> it's representative of how much government experiment with gambling has failed. it has been subsidized by the state government like new york. >> with stuff on that concept for a moment. the bookies for making so much money that the state said that this is mafia crime and we have to take it over because government is so incompetent. but they will lose money in new york city. packages shows when government gets into the gambling business how much it ends up being a failed he. >> they had succeeded offices, a

1300 person workforce is, a fleet of 87 vehicles. >> only government can lose money as a bookie. and to keep this conversation going on facebook or twitter, use the hash tag as in march madness and tells what you think. and coming up, buying stocks. is that gambling? i say it is a form of gambling and i can be the specialist by picking stocks at random. is it possible that i could pick stocks better from those so-called experts? we will see. the next a mobilize soon be able the next a mobilize soon be able to gamble from bed? why relocating manufacturingpany to upstate new york? i tell people it's for the climate.

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there's romance, face slaps, whatever that is, pirates, helicopters, pirate-copters... argh! hmm. it's so huge, it's being broadcast on mars. heroes...bad guys... asteroids. available only on mars. there's watching. then there's watchathoning. ♪ >> you want to play some poker? ripley played? it's not always easy to get all of your friends together. casinos are usually far away or in the we have this thing called the internet. and so we should be able to gamble with anyone at any time and for a while we could. websites like poker stars and others offer gambling 24 hours a day.

on a friday, three years ago, the department of justice charged besides with money laundering because they used u.s. banks to process transactions. just eight months later after consumers complained and states asked for clarification about the law, the justice department said maybe states may offer online gambling to gamblers and their states. to non-new jersey, delaware, and nevada. and more states probably will as well. the coalition to stop internet gaming. >> in the history of bad ideas, this has to be one of the worst. internet gambling. this isn't going to is the casino, this is gambling on your computer, your mobile phone, and are i've had. they target the young and the elderly, making it look fun and easy until someone gets in over their head. someone you know what love could

be taken for thousands of dollars. without ever having to step foot in a casino. it just takes gambling too far. >> casinos are so wholesome that you want to set foot in tinvitee show and they said no. the former congressman now represents a different casino group which says sure, legalize it. to make sure that it's regulated properly. what do you mean? >> all you are going to do is continue these websites to profit and to do well and to build up momentum and get stronger and stronger. that is the idea that people ought to be talking about. the ban on gaming. >> that sounds great to me. but i'm suspicious of your group because this is casino back as well and i get the feeling that they are trying to funnel all

this gaming activity to the casinos. >> people can be suspicious on all sides. that's fine. but let's talk about the way that i see this. to me it is a matter of simple entertainment value for the night. but i look back at what the internet did to music and also to television and film. and they started to stand in the way of the internet and we are really trying to stand in the way of the internet and it didn't work. and all it did was build up momentum to all of these websites the kids loved her in ever sense than the legitimate businesses have been trying to make up for lost time. >> so you're saying that we let it rip? >> i'm saying that the congress should not and gaming. they should let the states decide, as he said.

three states are currently doing so right now at different levels and they are experimenting to some degree. trying to make sure that it works great but i'm saying don't stand in the way of the internet. think to myself i came into the studio using bluebird. they know who i am committed know where to find me. and i decided it's okay that they do that. people try to stand in the way that of that technology, but it's a good technology. the issue is really that congress shouldn't be banning us. they shouldn't be telling states not to do it. don't stand in the way of this because if you do you're just going to allow some to build momentum and eventually kill off good american businesses. >> here's what children's group says about your effort. >> gambling will be an available in every home and bedroom in every dorm room and on every phone in tablet and computer. everywhere. >> it sounds scary.

>> that is the whole point of this. to make sure that we can regulated and the kids won't play. they know who i am, they know where i am. the kids are not going to play. the point is that if we don't do it and do it right, we are going to build up this website where there is absolutely no protection whatsoever for kids or for consumers of any type. john: when they drive you somewhere, they have a relationship with you. this 15-year-old kid can be in his bedroom gambling andnd gambling site does want is money. they don't care who he is. >> will honestly there would be protections in place. i believe that we could do this and do it right if we allow them to regulate it. the continuing these offshore black market sites, it means that they have many protections in place for our kids. john: thank you congresswoman.

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>> what to play blackjack? take another card. another. another. i one. i can play poker. slot machines. all of those games is because it is not in america zero ireland or panama. i don't know. i don't care but there are more of them all the time. how did they do that with other sites were stopped? we have naomi from the new york bitcoin center. so it thrives because they

pay with bitcoin? to make it is enforced they process the payments for the on-line gambling sites. so it does not use the financial institutions. it makes payments directly to the casino and very little the government can do. it could use diplomatic pressure but it is such an incredible market for on-line gambling bitcoin if they depend on a the dead calling -- bitcoin pavements it is making gambling safer for those who do it. john: i don't even know where this is the market has

responded with this type of thing and mathematically proves every shuffling is random still there is complete transparency. john: some of the poker sites turned out they were fixing for their friends. >> before this technology came into existence so there is the new technology may get more safer for gamblers. john: the payment is instantaneous? >> you could go one step further it is irreversible. people worry about the charge back fraud a and it bitcoin eliminates the risk of that happening.

>> that is what like wikileaks spinet that was the huge controversy. what the government did was to put pressure on the intermediary and then they're able to continue with the $.5 million. it is incredible. it is not just to love freedom of speech to allow people to spend the money where they want to. john: nevada chairman of the control board talking about any kind of gaming that is

simply cannot have been. >> i was a little shocked because the implications of that but then we don't even plan to but it doesn't get the government can come up with anything they want to be an anything illegal but they don't have to tell the people about it? it is outrageous. >> i was under the impression it was legal until the government bans it but somewhere along the line things are flipped which is a little scary for society at the moment. john: thank you kneale me. the biggest scandal and ischium of all. the state lottery. >> one way to the level

where the odds favor you. where the odds favor you. he would probably make money why is our arizona-based company relocating manufacturing to upstate new york? where the odds favor you. he would probably make money i tell people it's for the climate. the conditions in new york state are great for business. new york is ranked #2 in the nation for new private sector job creation. and now it's even better because they've introduced startup new york - dozens of tax-free zones where businesses pay no taxes for ten years. you'll get a warm welcome in the new new york. see if your business qualifies at startupny.com when folks in the lower 48 think athey think salmon and energy.a, but the energy bp produces up here creates something else as well: jobs all over america. thousands of people here in alaska are working to safely produce more energy. but that's just the start. to produce more from existing wells,

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john:. >> a total casino. >> i wish the stock market was as honest when i go to with the regulations they do not have that in the stock market. john: he is wrong about this there are very specific regulations in casinos but they offer a terrible odds for the best games craps and blackjack are likely to cost 1 percent every can't roulette will cost every spin 6%. slot machines are more. there are scandals in the

stock market but overtime the averages tend to go up. that is vastly superior to casino betting. that is why charles paid looks so prosperous and also plays the stock market. >> first of all, i hate to use the word play ian stock market but i have the business on this side as my livelihood for the last 25 years for the most part making people many in the stock market. john: that implies that you helped them to beat the average fan if i threw darts >> that analogy does not work too well because you don't have any pressure. it is like those who predicted there will be a stock market crash. of course, but to keep telling the people that there is a 10,000-point rally to really take the victory lap eventually? >> but those people don't do very well.

those that do worse than the averages i put my in the index funds that most people could outperform the average managed fund if they threw darts at the stock tables but this time was three years ago what did i get? emerson electric. my darts' landed of 30 companies. how would they do with stocks rackham -- recommended by mutual funds? three years later there up 34% which is great but no better them the new york stock shayne edge. of the managed mutual funds had to pay the fees. >> maybe you have been smart and successful they just

pick one thing they have the tendency to no one's talking pig goes up 30% to they will not take profits but if it goes down they will take the loss to say it did not work out. you could make it but in our building i have seen a lot of women wearing the big watches a bit everybody knows about them watching the show. where did you get it? did you buy the stock? no. at the same time it was obvious they were taking market share from coach over the last couple years michael kors is up and coaches down it is a no-brainer. something everyone watching the show any woman could have told you. it was not a gamble.

>> but you dispute the data that shows the index funds that do better than managed funds? >> the main reason, the biggest problem with the fund, are you a football fan? do you ever watch a football game than one team comes out throwing the ball down the field and 28 / three then in the fourth quarter what do they do? they sit on its. the other team scores no big deal we will run down the clock down the other team scores now the of the team tied up the game. john: index funds? >> mutual fund managers have the distinct difference in playing to win or playing not to lose. mutual-fund who have the best semiconductor stock in of the worst that is why you

as roving the darts was more in your favor because you were not going to go for the best in the worst in the name of balance. i am not a big mutual-fund fees and so i will not defend them but as someone is intimidated and the only way to get in i will still recommend that. john: over the index fund? >> no. not the index fund why pay extra money for average returns? to make a will pay a fee. >> typically they are cheaper. john: it is gambling but the market's average has gone up over the years. the scandal over pinball machines and by the government trash them why we should trash the politicians for selling garbage like this

(dad) well, we've been thinking about it and we're just not sure. (agent) i understand. (dad) we've never sold a house before. (agent) i'll walk you guys through every step. (dad) so if we sell, do you think we can swing it? (agent) i have the numbers right here and based on the comps that i've found, the timing is perfect. ...there's a lot of buyers for a house like yours. (dad) that's good to know. (mom) i'm so excited.

>> jim loves trains but sometimes he thinks they are too small. that changed when he won the

lottery. john: his luck is the reason that most buy lottery tickets. most of you are suckers samba betting odds are terrible and the hypocrisy is terrible the same politicians that they and internet parker or sports bets or bookies because the evil and a dangerous turn around to run their own gambling operation apparently lotteries are okay because government get some of the money. politicians see what hypocrites they are? our guest wrote about it in the federalist. what is the hypocrisy? >> it is obvious weather playing poker in your home or betting on sports or march madness. the government? down in all these different ways. john: rarely on march

madness. >> to their defense they don't call the illegal bookmaking operation. john: not yet. >> within the space of lotteries the government profits from all the horrible deals we're desperate and four people got to by lotteries. it is a horrible deal because you play games with pods that are incredible with the one in 175 million chance. >> that is the way the government sells you but it is a bad deal if there was of a casino where you had a $175 million chance you typically would not go to that casino you have one at a 21 chance to get black jack or 21 that is not that great of the deal a lot of people lose money but it is not a rip-off but the lottery is a rip-off like the government behaves and

other people. >> and the poor people. >> it is a regressive tax to take their cash. these people don't pay income tax. john: most lottery tickets are bought by poor people. >> that is the reason why you see people taking a desperate path to make it big to make up for their current economic plight. wide lotteries have been doing great during a downturn because it invites people to play more. john: we are told if you play our children are the winners. >> every time you play proportion goes to aid the children just like that. new york lottery. everybody wins. john: so it goes to the schoolchildren? >> everybody does not win. a scenario where money for education kin been buying

light bulbs for the administrators offices but this is fungible and can go to just about anything but they use that to offset other expenditures and other areas as they have maintained their health we have seen that states trumpeting lotteries even more to get people to spend more money to have more money go to their coffers to spread it around with their cronies. it is a terrible deal for the taxpayer. john: even if they kept their promise? >> half goes to the winner and $0.40 goes to new the i italian conglomerate? eleven cents to the government? >> they don't even have to do this some states don't make that much for states

like west virginia make more money. but for all sorts of states they all have to do this they could just cut programs or find it wasteful spending john: but they've done that adds that smear hard-working and real jobs. this celebrates a woman who wins then tells her boss i quit. ♪ john: work is for losers. >> just like obamacare to free you from job lot you can follow your dreams because the government will give you a bunch of money to do so. what is ridiculous is it is a good example why the lottery is a bad idea they

incentivize you to make bad decisions to break away from hard work to take away the things that you came out of the happiness of a job well done. lottery winners we find that the social science research don't feel as happy as quickly. john: even those you are disappointed eventually three months later there no happier than they were before. >> then they blow through the money too quickly is a policy where the government should not prevent you from making that decision but should not incentivize you then profit from the bad decision but that is what you see with the lottery's. john: they in fight you one dash invite you. such hypocrisy. [laughter] some good news some of the politicians are more sensible than their predecessors who would it

trashed and burned a pinball i'm nathan and i quit smoking with chantix. when my son was born, i remember, you know, picking him up and holding him against me. it wasn't just about me anymore. i had to quit. [ male announcer ] along with support, chantix (varenicline) is proven o help people quit smoking. it reduces the urge to smoke. chantix didn't have nicotine in it, and that was important to me. [ male aouncer ] some people had changes in behavior, thinking or mood, hostility, agitation, depressed mood and suicidal tughts or action while taking or after stopping chantix. if you notice any of these, stop chantix and call your doctor right away. tell your doctor about any history of mental health problems, which uld get worse while taking chantix. don't take chantix if you've had a seris allergic or skineaction to it. if you develop these, stop antix and see your doctor right away, as some coue life threatening. tell your docto if you have a history of heart or blood vessel problems, r if you develop new or worse symptoms. get medical help right away if you have mptoms of a heart attack or stroke. use caution when driving or opating machinery. common side effectslude nausea, trouble sleeping and unusual dreams. i had to qt smoking to keep up with this guy.

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♪ john: when that song was written pinball was illegal. politicians treated pinball the way they treat poker now. it was illegal for the

tnagers t t come within 10 feet. pinball was dangerous said the politicians because trying to win of free game was gambling. the day york mayor said this robs the youth of nickels and dimes. the police force seized thousands of machines and politicians posed for pictures smashing them with a sledge hammers the woodburn others it was a moral imperative to protect from pinball despite that it still did not disappear but just would move underground a as happens now with gambling it creates a black market. that is not subject to moderate social convention. but gambling makes less safe they say they vote must be limited because iraq's the family and that does happen

sometimes. but outlawed does not stop it. it makes it worse to make it secret. the good news is thanks to the internet authoritarian are losing control gamblers have options outside america so the money hundred politicians noticed those bets now the three states legalized it to others will consider it and do we assume. they've legalized for the wrong reasons and chris christie talks about tax revenue but that is the game for the people we are better when revenue is in private hands not government control i wish there would legalize for the right reason. some of us like to get progressively are adults there is nothing in the constitution against the state the right to tell us we may not. i ought to be able to do anything i want with other consenting adults. anything that's peaceful.

that's our show for tonight. see you next week. gerri: hello, everybody, i'm gerri willis. right now on "the willis report," calls to poison centers surge over e-cigarettes, children's specially at risk. also backlash as two prominent sports broadcasters say men taking paternity leave are wimps. >> i don't know why you need three days off, i'm going to be honest. gerri: who is right? we'll debate. google's company nest stopping sales of fire alarm because it. we're watching out for you on "the willis report." we're starting with critical information you need to know, especially in light of the gm recalls. new report by carfax says, a