everything@loudobbs.com. the authors of all comments each and every neat receive a free copy of my book "upheaval." that's it. thanks for being with us. john: it's that time again, they want your money. >> americans who can afford it should pay there are fair share. john: what is fair. >> denmark is becoming first country in world to impose a fat tax. john: media applaud new tax on things they don't like. we could payless if politicians done give -- didn't give special breaks to certain people. there honey there is $8,000 in here. john: you would be surpriseed at the size of sneaky taxes that uncle sam imposes.

>> so many taxes, i need a drink. >> tax, that is our show tonig tonight. john: our tox system is a*uf, tax code, part is unread an, this is a third this is the beginning. regulations that go on to explain the three books total 75 thousand pages, some taxes are necessary, there a cost to government, we need to pay for that somehow. but it outrageous we spend endless hours figuring out what he know, taxes are so complex most americans now pay someone for help, this is filled with special breaks for certain

politically connected time, people, which make our economy less healthy and less fair. we should throw out the tax code, and start with something simpleer. john "forbes" has been pushing for years. what makes you say you are getting more support. >> even democrats say this undefensible. there is no group in america other than a lobbyisistist who d this tkoed. johncode. john: simpleer i get, but why

flat. everyone pays the same, but that is not the most complex part of the code. >> if you have more than one tax rate, you open it up for politicians to clutter the code again. we're off to the races, we had 14,000 changes since 1986. with a single rate, everyone knows, if you are doing something. today you can make a change in the code, 6 months later people may discover what happened. john: you say, if we had a flat tax, this would help charitable giving, but i would lose the deductions how would that help. >> americans don't need to be bribeed to give, history shows when americans have more they give more, chair itic giving in terms of a dollar not hours volunteered, roughly 2% of the gdp it was that way before

income tax. chair it i thincharitable givin. john: people say, i get a deduction from this. they give anyway without it? >> they sure they do. it has been that way to 19 century. >> you say it would encourage homeownership. real estate lobby is wedded to the mortgage deductions. >> lobbyists in washington have to have a rationale, but when people have more they will buy a house, they don't need to be bribeed by government to do it we had growing homeownership for a long time, when you straoe trt statement late it artificially you get the disaster we had years ago.

john: in your world, in a flat tax it would be on a post card. >> one sheet of paper, post card or a few key strokes on your pc . john: a couple country have this estonia has a flat tax 21%. form is one page long takes 5 minutes. minutes. estonia is a new country. >> over 3 30 countrys in world, vladimir putin, put this in 13% rate in 2000. russia had a tax code that made our look simple, within a couple years revenues double, hong kaj hong kong for 60 years. now booming. >> you are fighting history pushing this. >> our very existence is fighting history.

john: i look at how this stuff, grown, first 1044 pages, including instructs 176 pages, takes rate 1% in today's dollars if you made $500,000, 6% if you mades there are learn million. mill. >> it went berserk from the beginning because of the first world war. politicians discovered that income tax is a money machine, they are not giving up it easily, a simplified code would be a huge step in the right direction. let's kill it and start over. show how stupid it is, dave camp, now leading house of representatives, heads up tax writing committee, he tried to simplify the code with the exists code, 1,000 pages, that

shows how bad this is, it took 1,000 pages to try to simplify it. john: not well received, he is leaving congress i guess in frustration, thank you staoeuf steve "forbes." "forbes. john: i'm sta too scareed to doy taxes, i hired bob, he is my accountant, i don't want to have to have an accountant, i don't want to spend time talking to bob, and i have to pay himself several thousands a year. >> that is nobody's business. >> i could have this delicious stake dinner, and take this cruise ship from new york to venice and back. or better yet, i could do good for the world, the same money i waste on bob i could buy two habitat for humanity homes

overseas. i could go to tortureing myself about what i could do with that money, but, let's move on to size of the tax bite. a book called divideed. perils of our growing income ineqaulity, he wants to address that with higher taxs on rich people, will mcbride does not top do, that david, you want higher taxes. >> i want higher -- the thing that you talked about, it is not rate that make system complex. it is all those rules that are unreadable that allow people to make money they don't pay taxes on. very wealthiest can live tax free. john: not many do. >> yes, many of them do. john: live tax free, how? >> well, you know let's do warren buffet.

his wealths there are scour billion, th -- $64 billion, do u think his return -- he is worse investor in america. >> he pays something, he gets dividends that have been taxed. >> you are missing, that warren buffet income in tax system is a tiny portion of his actual wealth increase, that is how we need to fix the system, the rules that allow people to not have to recognize income for tax purposes,. john: good reasons to encourage certain good social behavior. >> let's have the market take care of that. >> will? >> a tax system that is broken, there has always been loopholes, people with a lot of evasion, and it is, biggest problem is that is really suppressed investment. savings, steve explained a flat

tax that is getting away from this idea of taxes income. i think this a sound. >> just one rate for everyone. >> what is different that it does not tax investment double, or triple or as our income tax does, we're suppressing investment through the multiple layers of tax, you have corporate tax, dividend tax, capital gains, taxing the same dollar. john: we need simplicity. you have david way over on the left. he worked for the "new york times." you are on the right. >> i am a business founder. john: you represent those rich people. where is the difference? >> we're concerned about workers, about the poor, concerned about general welfare,

and the thing is that the besest thing for the poor is to stop these excessive tax burden on investment. john: you don't have a difference. >> we disagree on the last points. >> we would disagree about perhaps, i think current tax system protects existing wealth, and holds back striveers. it is the strive rs people that create no fortune. john: you say donald trump, they are striveers? >> their grand children should they be able to inherit everything. john: inheritance tax is not a big factor in tax revenues. >> it is done to help people avoid a estate tax involves huge things with the income tax, part of the problem is that political

power, that you see that is distorting the system, is really focused on protecting existing wealth not promoteing creation of new wealth, if we had integrity in the system, and simlicity and focus on stkraoeufers we would be bet -- striveers we would be better off in long run. >> we have multiple layers of tax on the striveers. then income taxes kicking in at last levels. john: this is reasonable why can't it gust -- just han. >> incentives for politicians, what is their incentive to do this? you have to raise millions to

get re-elected. >> a break then people have to come you to, and kiss your ring, and beg you for a special break, you are your full. john: thank you, will and david. to keep this conversation going. twitter hash tag is tax time. >> coming up, to lower their tax bill thousands of americans move to different states, we'll tl you which ones. john: next how different uses this book -- how government uses this book to manipulate us. >> federal government provides tax credit. subsidies to help the individuals and family purchase individuals and family purchase qualified while insurance plan

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john: i get tax deducts because i give a lot to charity, i have a retirement account. that lets me defer some taxes. taking deductions makes my taxes more complex eso a waste money on an accountn 't and have to do more record keeping.

we should focus on another way that the deductions are not a good way. >> what the tax code is doing is trying to choose our values for us, telling us, charity is good. john: protect our values? i thought it was to protect our persons. >> not trying to steer u.s. in direction of particular goals and ideas. they decide, i need a solar panel so they are giving me a tax credit, they want me to buy a house, but if i pay cash i don't get a benefit, somehow they want me to take on debt. john: most people don't pay cash for a house, they decide if people open their house they will take care of them, better for america.be that is true butt is none of the government's business, it is not their, to dictate my behavior.

john: they are encouraging. >> by use the coercion. they take more of my money if i don't buy a house, there is a gun. john: and a carrot on the oer end. >> honey there is $8,000 in he here. >> national association of realtors wants you to take advantage of $8,000 first time homebuyer tax credit. john: so brazen with uncle sam winking. >> this is treasure groups that benefit. john: mortgage bankers association, and association of people builders andrytors. >> home prices go up, there are more and more deductions because there are more pressure groups that get formed just for purpose of getting the tax deduction.

john: my biggest deducts, pension, government decided we want to encourage people to save for future, then maybe we don't have to take care of them. i get to defer some taxes. >> maybe don't ever shrink that. whether i save or not at any given points in my life, should be my decision, free of government coercion and involvement. saving for retirement is good, i don't need government to give me an incentive. i want lower taxes i'll have more money to save. john: you say you don't need to incentive but a lot of americans say ha is government for. to better activity for good of the cold country? >> this is how we lose our freedoms, when government steer people in a direction of what they should eat, what they should conesume, and can't and cannot buy, what investments they can and cannot make, a good

retirement plan. these are freedom we are losing in america every day. as pa ter nalistic government now manages our lives. john: take charity then. every buck i give to central park -- 50 cents less than what i give to uncle sam. >> absolutely given tax code, go crazy with it. but as you know i'm less charitable than you, i am paying more taxes than you. why is that fact that you are more charitable. john: it is good. >> who says? john: he said as i know he is charitable. i ran institute. >> i am not again charity. it is just how important it is, that we might disagree. but points is, government has no role, you want to give it to

charity great, i want to invest it rather than give it to charity good for me, it is not government's job to decide if i should start a business, there are a lot of thins that might -- things that might postpone whether i give to charity or safe for retirement, i might be starting a business right now. >> any politicians challenges them, hurts himself. during last presidential elect, mitt romney suggested tax deductions for wind power. and they are. but, then wind power, at v advos ran this commerce thi commercia. >> until a few weeks ago, i had a job building turbine, i got laid off because mitt romney and congress want to elimb i eliminx credits for the wind industry. john: he wants to take his job away. >> you don't see the jobs

created elsewhere. investment flowing to wind power when i is so economically inefficient it makes no sense, rather than to other that create more. am than wind farm this is problem with the government trying to micromanage the economy. our lives, they are lousy at it, they can't replace the value choices that each one of us makes for ourselves only we can do, that we need to be left free to do it. john: given they run ads like that you can blame politicians for chickening out. >> you have to, we don't elect them to chicken out, but, no, this is the way that system is built, it is built to perpetuate and expand it, you will see more of these you know what republicans get in they give it to their favorite groups, democrats to their favorite groups. >> thank you, coming up. >> taxes on sin, did you sin this week?

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john: want to start a small business? in some ways easier than ever, interest rates are low, and internet now allows us easier access to potential customer, but business professor brian said what makes it harder to start a business is the tax code, it kills little guys, because the code applies to big and little guys equally. >> it does, the problem is that big guys have a lot more resources to throw at this 375,000 pages than small guys do, take ge for example, would not surprise me they have thousands of people working for them to sift through this,.

john: we checked, in 2011 they have about a thousand employees of just doing this. >> in theory everyone is looking at this, at same time, and same way yo but ge finds way to maket work to their advantage, small businesses cannot do that. john: national small business association, polled businesses found they spend more than 80 hours a year on federal taxes, two workweeks, payroll taxes, two workweeks, sales taxs one workweek. john: a month of work, devoteed not even to paying taxes but trying to comply with the tax road, big problem is that if you are spending time working on taxes, you are not spending time improving products, investing in your employees, creating jobs, that is what economy needs. john: you can't have a tax code that says we'll give small guys a break and ge. >> no give them the same thing, right? create a level playing field,

points to not put small businesses at a disan srapblg -- disadvantage, create a tax code they could both comply with and work with. john: what are the odds of that politicians get such reward for failors certain people, last fiscal cliff bill, we're out of money but somehow tv and film producers, they have a special credit, owners of na nascar racetracks, wind turbine makers. makers. >> the odds are not easy they are not good, talk with steve before, people have been at this a long time, one thing i think we have not done is frame this debate in terms of some words of language i think popular now. when like at this i see instutionalizeed ineqaulity of opportunity, if you are big, wealth i you are connected this ican work in our advantage, if you are small guy you are at a severe disadvantage.

think about ineqaulity in u.s., take this down from 75,000 pages to something that everyone can deal with. john: the 75,000 is beyond this, this is explanation of this. >> right. >> the movement is to add more? >> right. >> you read the paper, a little adjustment and a tweak here. >> what is so tough about that, why this is really know issue is today it is probably more than ever easier for your average person to be a entrepreneur to start something. web platforms likee etsy, amazo, paypal they allow you to put up a store front, and collect money, easier than before. we have an opportunity to encourage entrepreneurship, and a tax code that says don't try that is not what we want to do. john: you hear from people who

say, i got internet stuff, but because of this i'm not trying? >> i had a conversation this ranch, not that i'm not going to try but i'm going are realize quickly, i don't know how to land else this. do you wan -- how to land else s you either pay someone a lot of money to do it for you. john: our buy complicated software. >> or you roll the dice. i'm going to roll the dice hope nobody is checking this that closely. i can go with my, do you want to put people in a position where they have to roll the dice? i don't want i want them to create jobs poor people. john: thank you brian. coming up, a cool way to understand how high-tech has persuadeed some people to pack up and -- how high taxes have persuadeed some people to pack persuadeed some people to pack up and m asked people a simple question: in retirement, will you outlive your money?

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john: you are stuck with your federal taxes in america you have to pay, but america has 50 different states, that means you can avoid some taxes if you live in the right state, that creates competition, if your state does something stupid, you can leave. take your talent money elsewhere. millions do. travis brown invented a cliffer way to document who is moving where, here it. movement of americans and their income. john: >> measures by internal revenue service taxpayer data files since 1992 to 2020 -- 2010. we can do this this period show from where and to where americans have been voting with their feet taking their wallet. john: red states people left, gone to florida or texas or

north carolina. >> america's biggest winning state is florida. a gain of $10,000 a minute every minute of every day on average for last 18 years. there are 9 states like florida, that do not penalize that work, and they as a group tend to to very well in our analysis. john: the analysis shows people leave the income tax states for no income tax state. >> 9 states with different location, weather and climate as a group over 18 years have collected over 166 billion dollars from the other front states. reverse --s true, 9 9 states wh highest income tax rate have lost $150 billion. 19 billion out of new york for florida, one state in new england stands out, live free or die is their motto, they have a

gain with a different weather climate of 3.5 billion. >> not just about weather, california all seem to be red. >> california states in green receive california income from taxpayer that have choseen to leave. golden bear state, and neighbors like nevada right next door show a gain of 18 billion, 10 from places like lake tahoe. john: biggest per capita winners, florida, montana, wyoming, south carolina, and vermont. >> yes. john: losers, alaska, new york, washington d.c., illinois, maryland. >> right. if you look at total tax burden as a percent of your income, high tax states give their income away, and lower tax states doing better and better and better. john: and people watching now they can download their own version of this? just go to the web site. >> right. john: how many. >> how money walks, you could

have this information for your industry, councily and state -- county, state on your smartphone on our app or surfing this web map. john: useful, i like that it states now advertise their tax advantage, florida and texas, ran these ads. >> 0% personal income tax, that is right. 0. the best place to get away from it all is also the best place to get it all done. grow your company in florida. >> if you are tired of same recipe of over taxation, over regulation, and frivolous litigation, get out before you go broke. >> texas is calling. john: texas governor rick perry escalated tax competition by naming other states, trashing them. >> if you just took book of rules and regulation in new york straight 29,000 pages. >> -- new york straight 49,000 pages. >> we have no state income tax. john: i love it he points out greed of my state politician.

johnpolitician. >> it makes sense why governor pery is in new york to recreate get more business. john: my politicians feeling pain of losing people and money to states like texas have started running this ad. >> new new york is open, open to innovation, that is why new york has a new plan, dozens of tax free zones across the state, move here, expand here. or start a new, here, and pay no taxes for 10 years. >> that is not just lower taxes that sounds -- certain tax free zones. this. >> classic case of i think 140 million of promotion of that kind of ad, but it requires you on be selected by your state government as a winner in a particular zone, and there are a lot of conditions that would apply there. john: you have to be near state university of new york and other private colleges, retailers and law firms and hotels medical

offices power plants are excludeed it sounds le arrogant politicians saying, i'll take that one, i like this one. >> bys time you fill out that paperwork you may have had enough time to move to palm beach or austin. john: i think it will weather, this is new york going to florida. just most of green is down here. >> we see evidence that for texas, tenneee, and flooded there they do well, but a state like wyoming, still snowing in this environment, we have a gain of 1.42 billion, and digital prairie, a job with an area in south and north dakota they are doing well in upper tier great plain states, have you other states. john: the weather is lousy there. >> not if you are a fes fess an- pheasant. john: you break it down county by county. >> chicago a big part of $29

billion loss to a state like illinois. we can look on where that state loss is, even within the state. by going in to the cook county, that is what allows to us see relationship of how much responsibility a city may have, for governing their state correctly or incorrectly. >> thank you travis, again you can download this, coming up, sin tax. do you want to smoke, drink or eat junk food? different states with different plans for taking your money, that is next. so ally bank really has no hidden fees on savings accounts? that's right, no hidd fees. it's just that i'm worried about, you know, "hidden things." ok, why's that? well uhhh... surprise!!!

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john: want a beer? you must pay extra for it because in addition to sales tax, states impose a sin tax on product like this. i bought this, bottle of whiskey, i paid an additional $2. beyond stales tax for s*eurp s*b sin of jack daniels, if you smoke cigarettes you must be reay sin full, politicians tax you to save you from yourself, don't we

want government to discourage distructionive behavior? no said reasons tv nick galespi. >> if i want to hear sin i will go to church a or an anthony weiner press conference. john: who cares what you want. wise politicians decide it is better if we're not all drunk or smoking cigarettes. >> there is a case to be said that cigarettes imposeed cost, in terms of health care when they get sick we take care of them. so, can say yes, there should be a tax on cover those clearly identifyible linked health conditions but when new york city charges $5 in sin taxes for a pack of cigarettes or chicago $6 they are beyond that, they

are supposed to high to tes courage consumption -- discourage consumption of a good but they are more revenue. people who are fat, who are smokers they are minority groups they can be denomizeed you can ratchet up the costs they have to pay. john: but tax has a cost that it encourages people to white, go to the black market most of the cigarettes sole in new york state were sold illegally. >> it was like 57% of cigarette used in new york state were broughbroughtin illegally or and way, because new york has a high cigarette tax. john: so a new form of organizeed crime. >> or a lifeline for old organizeed crime. >> i think this most americans

like the idea of our officials manipulating us in a good way, for a while we had luxury tax. another form of sin tax, on private planes, and cars, valueed over dollar $30,000, bor $100,000, that seems fair? >> you know, this nothing under scores more clearly how sin taxes are symbolic skwraoeftures they are big -- gestures they are big taxing during recession, you are look to scapegoat someone in early '90s people saidly go after luxury yachts, you know let's screw them by taxing them on that, it reduces the demand for yachts, people who make yachts are not billionaires, a lot of people were thrown out of business. john: it was repealed. >> yes, but this inpulse to say

certain things are wrong in colonial america you could taxed for dressing heavily above your station if you wore fancy ribbons or leather boots, this is -- you know, i am go to say that is not what america is about. john: it is what america is about. >> you know we live in a secular society we don't have an official category of sin in political arena. other than what politicians do on a daily basis, let's you know tax politics attack the laws, you know -- tax the laws put a tax on new laws but leave the candy bars alone. john: we revere the founders when george washington was president they passed tax on whiskey, hamilton said when people drink too much they do things they regret. >> one of very few things that everyone will agree on. hamilton was right. there was also a whiskey rebellion against that, thi it s

clear that you be, the problem we should -- i think a government would be better if it taxed everything equally as long as you talk about activitys and goods. a tax on imports shra*eufs. >slaves.>> like on tea, it is dg that colonial protesters protested taxs on teas but not on slaves the same way. john: a now town lawmaker pro -- newtown proposed a sin tax on violent video games. >> there is no proof. john: they play them much more in japan where there is less crime. >> this under scores scapegoating that goes on when there is a problem throw a law or tax at it, demonize, video game irs are deonizeed.

john: colorado is excited about money they are geting from marijuana. >> that upside of sin tax that cash straped governments, everywhere they wante merrevenu, suddenly they are will doing say something like, maybe it is not such a bad thing if adults could legally smoke pot instead of going on the plaque market we'll -- black market, we'll tax it people are happy to pay that tax for a while. i think it should be taxed same at milk with yo -- but that a wt sin tax can be a powerful age for liberalizing good policys. >> thank you, nick gillespie. >> next how complex taxes invite politicians to use this to punish their enemy, that is not good.

♪ oh-oh, oh, oh, la, la-la, la-la, la-la ♪

♪ na-naa, na-na-na-na-na some things just go together, like auto and home insurance. bundle them together at progrsive, and you save big on both. ♪ oh, oh-oh, oh, oh hey, it's me! [ whistles ] and there's my dog! [gasps] there's my steps! i should stotalking. perfectly paired savings. now, that's progressive. john: done your taxes yet? when you think is legal may not be. you have good reason to be confused because who could understand this stuff? three examples, an are on the don different -- a are on orthodontist said a patient should take clarinet lessons to correct an over bite, the cute said that

was accept aim, but a doctor suggests piano lessons for relax as a, the court denied it. if you own a junk yard, you want to get rid of mice, you can did duck cosdeduct the cost of foode to ferril cats but not the cost of a watch dog who guards your home office? do you get the difference? i don't either, but that is what you get with garbage like this. let's start over. that would just address the income tax, politicians grab almost as much money from sneaky taxes that you may not notice. we da pay them all day long from moment i wake up and turn on a light. >> more when i brush my teeth, and license my dog.

-- so many taxes. i need a drink. >> multiple complex taxes are a threat not just because they take more money from us because they give ruling class power to punish critic, we learned about one campaign to do that. >> internal revenue service service practice of targeting conservative groups. >> they would look for key words like tea party opatriot. >> we found out about that one, but how many other times has this happened that we don't know about. complex tax rules are an invitation to ruling class to abuse its power, our best protect is simlicity -- simp less tie, better protection would be smaller, limited government. is it too late to wish for that? i hope not, that is why we do

this show, that is all for tonight, we'll see you next week. hello and welcome to "across america," i'm jeff flock and where are we this week? we're on a ski lift. >> whoa! >> and a snowmobile. >> the snowmobile is back in a big way. >> we're driving down a frozen mountain and camped out on a frozen lake. notice anything here? we're looking at all things cold and hot. we are both sweating. look at this. we'll introduce you to the man who put his sweat into the relaunch of the twinkie. we'll explain why tea is becoming hotter than coffee. and if that hasn't