>> vanguard equity income. it's a great way to play the broad market and get dividends. >> i hope everyone has a very special easter. come back make some money. if you make under $250,000, you will not see your taxes increase by one single dime. not your income tax, not your payroll tax. not your capital gains tax. no tax. >> flash forward to 2014, a new report from americans for tax reform revealing that president obama sought 442 tax increases since taking office. that doesn't include the ones he actually signed into law. ask americans what they think and more than half say they already pay too much. is it time to end the tax hikes and bring on a flat tax. once and for all. i'm david asman.

welcome to forbes on fox. let's go. 440 new taxes and a lot of small business folks, this is death by 1,000 cuts. >> yeah, the last time they tried to simplify the code back in 1986 they did a little bit. since then it's changed 15,000 times. tax code is an abomination and hurts people from getting better paying jobs. politicians love it and lobbyiests lolobbists love it. that's it unless the american people go back to real work instead of coping with this thing that's a dead weight and brings out the worst in all of us. >> rick, for simplicity alone having just done my taxes i'd like a flat tax. >> as you know, david, i have never had an allergies to the flat tax. conceptually it's okay. here's where my problems come

into play. one, i don't believe we won't divert back because they'll always show up to get an exception to a flat tax. i love how we come to the 20% number. people would say their taxes were too high even if we used the flat tax. that's how people are. but if somebody can answer it, why 20%. >> maybe we'll get that. by the way, i should mention, coincidentally the president's tax rate is 20%. he pays a lot less than i do. rich, the fact is that president obama when he came into office hah the marginal tax rate, the highest marginal tax rate was 35%. it's now almost 40%. 39.6. just as a means of comparison, ronald reagan came in with a tax rate of about 70%. when he left office it was 28%. it had dropped that much and look at what happened with both the top and the highest income groups during reagan's term. they both went up about 12%.

so both the poorest and the richest improved their life standards. >> you know, there's a real moral imperative to keep taxes lower and flatter right now because they do -- it does create jobs and it instills a sense of fairness and right now this country is being torn apart because of this sense of unfairness. trust and government institutions is at an all time low. it's bipartisan across the board which is why everybody can support this. i'll answer rick's question why 20%? study after study after study, hoover institution and others show that the optimal size of the federal government is about 20%. actually about 18% of the size of the gdp. >> so, bruce, if we want to get rid of income inequality, lower the tax rate to 20%. the top rate. >> well, i don't know that people would have an issue with that. i think a lot of progressives are in favor of a flat tax but they want it to be simple and they want it to be fair and they

also want it to be transparent and is it going to include capital gains? a lot of the people that are skeptical of the flat tax say it ends up that very wealthy people dodge the flat tax because they make their money off of investments. so would it include capital gains? that would be an interesting question. >> well, you're an expert in tax policy? could we get rid of the loophos even if we could get conservatives and progressives on board, could we do it? >> yeah, i think you could do it. the question is, by the way, this president sees the path between the rain drops and never gets touched by anything. it has been simplified beyond all understanding. so the question is, i think it's important. we have career politicians. charlie i think has been around since the nixon administration. >> a long type. >> and he's on the committee. the problem is, if you do a flat tax, they could layer on a value added tax which to d.c. is like giving the keys for a drunk to a

liquor store. i say do the flat tax. it's like they have a flat tax and we don't. we have a tax code that is designed to entrap. >> bill baldwin is a flat tax the answer? >> i think the virtues of flatness have been greatly exaggerated. now, steve forbes is right to be harping on that tune. i mean, why, after all, if you have a kid in college should you be filling out a form that asks you for your american exclusion and then domestic activities deduction. that's absurd but i don't think flattening the rate structure and taking 40% down to 20% is going to simplify anything. we still have all of the absurdities and the question is how much do the rich pay and the poor pay. >> if you can get rid of all of the absurdities and all of those things everybody would love the idea of putting your taxes on a postcard. that's a beautiful conception. >> and you would free up the american people.

last year 6 billion people were spent filling out tax forms. 3 million full time jobs and for what? bill is just making the case, get rid of everything. have a simple flat rate and you want to include investment income and knock it down to 12 or 15% and if you make it you pay it. >> and catch all the rich guys the thing is too you unlock economic potential in this country. that's what he is talking about. look at those in this country that have a flat tax growing by 5, 6, 10% a year because they simplified the tax structure. >> and they're liberated to do those things instead of dead weight things. >> the other thing you would do is starve the beast. i'm talking about big government that gets more and more trillions of dollars added on. we did a fox poll about what bothered people most about the high taxes and it was government spends too much of it.

if you get a flat tax, wouldn't you be able to starve the beast a little? >> take the beast down to 18%, the size of gdp. i think that's where we want it to be. that's what it was, by the way, under bill clinton's years where we had really good economic growth. this is something. that makes a powerful case. john kennedy was in favor of lower marginal rates. they make a powerful case for a lower, flatter tax. >> rick, it is true. you reach some of john f. kennedy's old speeches about taxes and high tied lifts all boats. it sounds like reagan. >> it's simple to me. the american public will go along with a plat tax but not if you're not going to chchange t way you can pervert the tax code. if we can figure that out we have you on board. steve, can we figure it out. >> one the simplicity is best defense. right now you make a change in

the tax code before anyone realizes what has been done where everyone sees what you're doing. super majority before you can change it. so you have to have a real national consensus before you can change it. and simplicity is the best defense. >> why not. let's do it. speaking of taxes, still ahead, super model gisele is getting audited and blaming the forbes rich list. and find out why and how they can help you on to that list. but first, is the agency in charge of environmental protection out to bulldoze the entire housing market? what's happening in your backyard and around the country will shock you. >> the land owner that even has a seasonal puddle could be subject to laws and regulations government waters of the united states. it's ridiculous and laugha

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wednesday. now back to forbes on fox. you heard it here first, a few weeks ago on this very program we told you how the epa's new land grab could hit you no matter where you live and we were right. but it gets worse. here's what the ceo of the national association of home builders, one of the premiere housing organizations in the country told fox business. >> this is about extreme environmentalists and their influence over the epa in particular trying to stop all development everywhere in the

country. >> wow, steve, how badly could this hurt housing? >> david not only is it going to hurt housing but hurt the country. the epa doesn't want to make a distinction between a mud puddle and the mississippi river. this is a pure power grab trying to get more control over our lives. these elastic definitions. if you have a cup of water they'll be controlling that. >> just as we thought housing was getting back on its feet. >> i don't know. this might be a little overblown but in california i think the drought has turned a lot of rivers into tribeutaries for starters. but they're showing that confidence slowed a little bit but their numbers out this week showed that the pu tour looked good. i don't know if that was a big deal. >> some people are saying that epa is going beyond the clean water. what they're trying to do here is a little bit of social engineering. how is that? >> well, the obama administration makes no secret of the fact that it wants to create more urban density.

it thinks that that is ecologiaclly good. it does take away people's opportunities to chose where they live. if you want a great source of this, on forbes kom, joel has been documenting this over the last couple of years. >> so is this more about social engineering than clean water? >> i fear that it is. here's -- it's not just the epa. the epa issue i think now reading into it is a serious one. i think it's something that is concerning. i'm not sure how far the reach will go. it is a concern about pollution. we want to clean up the country and clean up the planet. but when you look at what's going on in other parts of the administration, you look at what's going on out west where the government pointed out he owns 92 or 90% of the land. erect solar farms. we have private businesses really unlocking oil and gas. 20 to 30,000 private businesses, that's the thinking in the administration that they can do

better than what the little guys, the little business guy can do. >> bill, that's it. it's the micromanagement aspect of all of this. the administration is always out thing it's tax incentives et cetera. but then they come in with regulations that not only wipe out those incentives but make it worse for the housing industry. >> well, here's a question. how did they end up redefining navicable waterways. there was once a famous case where the california fish and game commission defined the butterfly as a fish. and how does the epa crush homeowners? lots of ways. first they came after your shower and your faucet and then your washing machine came under their control and now it's your side yard. you violated the scenic water or something like that. >> you're not a hard nose conservative but i think you believe the epa has gone too far. >> i can't believe you think i'm

any kind of a nose conservative. i'll give you this much. i did read the proposed regulations. it's a bit over the top but it's over the top to suggest this is going to have any significant impact on housing. most housing isn't built near this situation. are they going too far? yeah, they probably are. >> but steve, again, if i have to listen to regulators inside the belt way or a guy from the home builders association, i'll listen to the guy that builds homes. he knows what he's talking about, no? >> this is a gross violation of property rights. the thing is so elastic. this is where you get tyranny. bureaucrats decide what the law is. >> one hand of the government gives so much money, pouring trillions into the housing and then another arm of the government unwinds it and the federal reserve then has to step in and fix everything. >> rich, i don't want to put too

fine a point of this but the grand scheme that this administration has of wanting things to go it's way despite what happens to the business community. >> yeah, and a very outspoken agenda on their behalf is more urban density. more people that want to be regulated. more democrats i guess. >> there's a solution, it's to pick up rich's new book. the soft edge. we're rooting for you. >> thank you. >> ahead of easter sunday, al sharpton believes that the president's career and he has said this has been resurrected but are the majority of americans saying something else? cashing many is about to rev up the debate but with roads torn up, the highway fund is about to go belly up. why is someone hearsre saying that's good news? it could save roads and taxpayers. well it's official...

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i guarantee after this winter if you look at the potholes that are all across big chunks of the united states that people would like to see an infrastructure built. >> from busted up roads to just going bust. the president acknowledges that we have an infrastructure problem. here's the dilemma. the highway trust fund will be dried up by august. that's just fine. let it go. explain your flip side.

>> well, i think we need more private ownership of growth. we could do things a lot faster. there was a great example a few years ago where indiana sold $3 billion worth of indiana highways to some brazilian operators. the roads got better and indiana solved it's deficit problem. you have private incentives at work. >> let private roads do it. >> if states want to start privatizing they should start by letting every kid attend a charter school if they want to. you could have two schools five blocks apart competing to get the best teachers and the best students but having two thruways side by side, that's a toll road to waste and chaos. >> but rick wouldn't it be a great experiment? we could at least try it? it's been tried before. >> that's what my suggestion would be. look, i think you're going to be surprised. they're not going to be lining up to buy these bridges and roads as much as you think but i'd go for a program for 10 to 20 years and see what happens. >> bruce, what's wrong with

trying? >> no, i don't think there's an issue with trying necessarily. but this is out here on the prairie here. i mean, letting the highway fund run out right now, it's just not a good idea. but i wouldn't be opposed to a pilot program. we were doing that with medicare and private companies. the administration has been open to that. so -- but maybe that's the way to go. >> i think we're on a roll. do you agree? a pilot program would be a good thing? >> why not. but the problem is who would be in control of that money? i'm with rich on this. i think it's a great idea but the problem is that the trust fund now has turned into a pork wagon. state and local tax officials have used this to run over taxpayers with weird projects for things that have nothing to do with the roads, museums or bicycle paths or horse trails. i'm not opposed to the latter to. you just have to put a lock box. >> put a lock box. once again we saw the lock box with the social security fund.

politicians use it for their own thing. at least sp that process, right? >> absolutely. leave the highway trust fund alone. it was meant for highways. and leave it alone instead of using it for all of these other things but we already have an experiment underway called the national railway system. privatize the railroads. we deregulated them 30 years ago and now we have the best system in the world. let private people do it. you'll have a mix public and private but the more you'll get maintenance and this stuff done. >> rich, this is another example. the last segment we had an example but this is another example where you can get conservatives and people who are on the left or on the right agree with something. why doesn't it get done? why don't the knuckle heads inside the beltway get this done? >> well, they're big and bloated and it's hard to get things done. we saw it in obamacare's roll out and other examples. but even the obama administration, the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. obama complains about

infrastructure but his own environmental apparatus makes it hard to build infrastructure. >> let me suggest one other thing that the lobbyiests were working in tandem with the government are preventing it from being done. don't they have something to do with that? >> sure and in washington these things become a pork fest. the only way you get things done is to get more than real infrastructure. >> coming up, after an audit, supermodel gisele has regrets about being on the forbes rich list. do you want to take her place? our informers would be happy to help. ♪

that is supermodel gisele. she may not want to be on the forbes rich list herself but how about you. >> it's the big clinical laboratories. gurus at the top hedge funds are look at it as a long-term play because it could move big time into testing and molecular diagnostics. >> do you like it? >> they have been collecting samples. what happens when the doctors get desktop blood analyzers. >> you're for an insurance company called martell. >> they'll cover you if your bar

has a bar room brawl. >> i would avoid it. the profits are being driven by the companies own internal stock and investment ticker. >> that's it for forbes on have a wonderful easter. keep it right here for "cashin in". >> the reverend said he has risen but he wasn't talking about jesus. try president obama. al sharpton saying the president was creusified but now is resurrected. >> nothing more than terrorists. >> calling those that supported the bundy ranchers domestic terrorists. harry reed and our government have a big beef with the supporters of freedom. why this has everything to do with government intimidation. remember who was president during the energy crisis? how did that workout. no jimmy