professor, mr. or ms. minimum wage rage. raging in 150 cities this week. their one double their play. this as americans are feeling less secure in their jobs. some here are warning if these guys get their way, all workers will pay. who is right? hi, everybody. this is "bulls and bears," and here we are with the bulls and bears this week. welcome, everybody. gary, raise their way and all workers pay? >> at least most of them,

brenda. look, the concern the cry is for the $15 minimum wage. if 100 people now are getting minimum wage, at the end 95 won't get anything and maybe five will get the minimum wage. why? because the $15 minimum wage, brenda, is just a signal for companies to odd mate even faster. that can be automated. it's being automated in mcdonald's. now in the bank, you see one or two tellers and a row of atm machines. you go to the supermarket and you see self service checkout. all the jobs will go away quicker. the cashiers, the supermarket clerks, if we go to $15 minimum wage. all it is is a sign that says if you have low skills or just

entry jobs, don't bother, we can automate it. >> let's think about the timing. we barely have a jobs recovery, and doubling the pay of these workers, isn't this the wrong time to do that? >> it's the absolute right time to raise the minimum wage. doubling it to $15, no, i think that's too fast too soon, but raising it to $10.10, what congress tried to do in the face of gop opposition, that's the way to go. there was a study that looked out state level data from 1990 to 2006, and i am sure gary is familiar with that, and raising wages for low wage workers does not contribute to a decline in employment. the university of california had a similar study. how can people making $7.25,

it's poverty level. but $15, that's too much. >> there are studies on both sides of the issue. what do you think of it, john? >> i see your study and will raise you a study. you are right. there are studies on both sides, just like you said. the latest study came out to $15 an hour, and it will cost half a million jobs out there. to get people out of poverty, minimum wage is not the best way to do it, the average family that has a minimum wage worker makes about $53,000 a year, because most of these are part time, a spouse that is also working not just as the head of the family. why $10.10. president obama raised the minimum wage, and this is all about politics. this is all about mid-term elections. they could fix this. believe me, they could fix it and they don't want to because they want to pitch the poor

against the rich at mid terms and not talk about the economy or foreign policy. >> one of the arguments of the protesters is that these huge fast-food giants have so much money and so many profits, but in fact 80% of mcdonald's are independently owned and operated, and franchises owned by small business owners. >> mcdonald's has been struggling lately. their numbers are coming close as far as earnings go, and they are not blowing it out of the water like everybody seems to think. to pay them more, the big question is where is the money going to come from. where is the mom and pop going to find the extra money to come up with the $15. i think, again, the market must dictate what these people are paid, what everybody is paid. the market dictates what we are paid. ain, you should not strive to be on a minimum wage salary for the rest of your life. maybe we should empower ourselves and try to be better.

the tax credit promotes apathy, because they know they make too much money they don't expect it anymore. everybody is expecting handouts and it's hurting the economy. >> what do artificially high wages do to job security? >> it radically increases job insecurity. $15 is good pay. definitely will increase the amount of people that want that job. think of all the times you want to go to workers and do a lousy job, and isn't it like the dmv where there is no job security. high productivity, you want that job and you know ten people want that job at your wage rate and you get that, and sure, consumer prices will go up, and you will see people working harder.

>> i don't get that, nobody gets fired at the dmv so whether they get 7 or $15 an hour, they are still sitting on their butts bei bei being bored. >> what they will have, is people doing a better job because of the person from the outside because somebody wants that person's job. >> there are long lines for hiring in all places right now, this is not a jobs recovery, really. do you expect raising the wage would hurt workers? >> a couple points, brenda. one, bernard cited a study by unc and i went to duke so i can't trust a study from unc, and if the franchise owners could afford this, and i don't think they can, even if they

could afford it and the prices don't change for the burgers, where do they think the money comes from, the bottom line of the franchise workers. what happens at the evened of the year. they say, i was going to buy another franchise, andy the way, employ another 100 people, but now i have less money because i have to pay these people more, so the 100 new jobs that i was going to create just are not going to be created. bernard, the government cannot just mandate what the market doesn't want. they can't artificially say we want higher prices, just like back in the '70s, they couldn't put a cap on gases prices and not expect lines to go around the block. the economics don't work that way. >> they can and should set certain minimum standards. i have a question for tracy. >> unbelievable. >> where does tracy think the money is going to come from to pay the student loans for further education that get people out of minimum wage jobs. you don't have money to pay off

the student loans, so how are they going to educate themselves -- >> you just insulted every minimum wage worker on the planet, because you are presuming none of them have college degrees -- >> no, to further education you need student loans, and to pay off a student loan it's going to be hard to do that -- >> people making $50,000 a month are having a hard time paying off student loans today. >> last word to gary b. >> bernard argues the market doesn't work and i think the markets works and every time we have a government program or mandate, it has not worked. >> thanks, guys. remember, we want you to get in and join the debate, the entire show using #bullsandbears. some government workers doing naughty things are getting to keep their jobs while others

are being paid to do nothing. neil's gang has something to say about that. but first, for get keeping your doctor. now you may not be

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break away from the choice habit that everybody has. are you worried about this? >> yeah, we said it would happen. there is good and bad news about obama car. most of the people that sign up are people that need insurance, and it's bad economically for obamacare because you need the young people that don't need insurance for this to work to pay for those that are older and have a lot of medical costs. that's not happening. so what is going to happen is exactly what you are seeing, fewer options in hospitals and doctors and higher premiums. we are getting a much worst system because of the way the system was set up. >> to keep costs down, don't you have to limit choice? >> yeah, this is the secret to limiting and lowering prices. i want to see the doctor i want to see. what fantasyland does the government or somebody else

paying for your insurance have that choice. if i damage my car, and i want to paint it with flames, but they are not going to ship my car out there and pay $20,000 for a paint job, right? that's because i don't have a choice. they have the choice. i pay the premium, and insurance says you have to go to the cheap and local paint shop. >> hold o. everybody. we're talking about doctors in our own neighbors, and not going somewhere across the country. take it away, john. >> jonas, is your only option a man with a spray paint can under a tree? that's what we are talking about. your current plan is worth the same thing it was before obamacare. this is not an extravagant means we are studying. >> jonas, i am quoting the president. if you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor.

2009 -- >> that's how he stalled it. >> we're all idiots to buy into that. >> what fantasy world were you in to think this. >> jonas seems to imply that it was a mad cap choice world that we had that caused prices to go up. it's really just the opposite. we didn't have choices. you couldn't buy insurance and go across state lines and you could be the go to some doctor that was not approved by some medical conglomerate. we didn't have free choice at all in health care, and that's why prices went up. now, as far as this obamacare, what you have is where jonas is right, the only way this monopoly, and that's what it is, to exist it has to control supply and prices, and of course, even then it will fail just like communist russia did, and that's what we have,

communist russia in the '50s, and we have a force march to whatever the obamacare guru says what doctor you can go to, and the official says we have to get over the choice thing that's right because that's the only prayer obama has to succeed. >> gary b. is entirely wrong this time. this insurer that said that statement had almost no market share before the minnesota exchange went online. they decided, you know, we are going to give customers the option and have few choices, very low premium, and people flock to it because they wanted that choice. the market produced a solution that customers wanted and with lower cost it's going to come with lower choice. $8 million have signed up. news flash. 8 million people, it's working, and young people are also signing up. >> if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor? what happened to that? >> a lot of them already had insurance and the wrong people are signing up, the people who

basically can't afford it. obamacare can't afford it. >> right, so those people are doing the happy dance while everybody else is suffering with the backlash of the whole thing. the system is not going to work because it's completely imbalanced. sure, all these people signed up, but nobody has paid yet. i signed up for -- >> not true. >> totally true, bernard, and you know it. the kids are smarter than all of us and they know this is a total crock and want nothing to do with it. >> thanks, guys. california wildfires destroying thousands of acres. putting homes in the line of fire. now, some folks are asking, should we stop building near danger zones to

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ferocious wildfires engulfing homes and businesses in southern california. early estimates of damage in the tens of millions of dollars. sadly, this is not the first time we have seen this. is the only way to avoid seeing it again to keep folks from moving in these hot spots in the first place? tracy? >> you know, it's unfortunate because our country is so beautiful and we want to be able to live in all parts of it, in the hills and on the water, but natural disasters keep happening and we keep paying for them. i think it's really silly we keep rebuilding in places that keep getting hurt, and again, insurance premiums, we have been talking about this, they just keep going up because of what is happening.

i think there is a conversation to be had here about whether or not it's mart to rebuild in these places. >> should you pay more for the privilege of living in the high risk areas? >> yeah, i love this place, and that's the reason i live here and i have a house reinforced for hurricane-strength winds and the house pays a higher premium. if something were to happen i would rebuild and still live here and i think people should have that choice. you can't prepare for fire and tornados like you can for a hurricane. i think they should be mandated that they do have house insurance, so there is not a federal bail out. >> bernard, weigh in on this? >> i agree, i think the market should dictate what happens, i think user fees and higher premiums, and unftpofortunately

families will have to pay for it and i don't think it's fair for the taxpayer across the board to bear the responsibility for it and i think the market should and the users and those that live in the areas will have to pay additional assessments as well as higher premiums and insurance. >> should government be able to tell you where to live? >> i don't think so brenda. i am in agreement with bernard, the market should dictate and if you want to live in a place high risk, you should have to pay higher premiums and do the kind of things that john says. the fact of the matter, brenda, it seems like there is less and less places in the country that are safe. i am sure the people a year or so ago in new jersey and long island thought they were safe until hurricane sandy came. there is flooding, you know, just in the past few weeks, and alexandria, virginia, along the potomac. tornado alley in the midwest. so you should be able to choose

where you want to live, and you just have to accept there will be costs. jonah? >> now it's considered hurricane zone connecticut. the government is still on the hook for the next sandy. the government needs to tax the same people whose insurance went up to cover their costs that went up, and insurance is only half the problem and the government has to lay on taxes in these areas. >> last words, gary? >> again, maybe bernard and i are in agreement on this one. let the market dictate and let people themselves assume the responsibility. >> tracy? >> what is so bad about the government saying this is national land and we will leave it that way and maybe we can think about building homes in other parts that are a little safer. >> okay, thanks, guys. this discussion will continue.

>> and thank you to bernard for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thank you for suffering with me. the name, bigger than godzilla hitting the screen and co (mother vo) when i was pregnant... i got more advice than i knew what to do with. what i needed was information i could trust on how to take care of me and my baby. luckily, unitedhealthcare has a simple program that helps moms stay on track with their doctors and get the right care and guidance-before and after the baby is born. simple is good right now. (anncr vo) innovations that work for you. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare.

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predictions. all right. take it away, gary. >> mcdonald's is going to weather whatever comes about. i think the stock is up 20% by

year end. >> jonas, looks like he never had a big mac in his life. >> that stock is not in my happy meal. >> john, your prediction? >> go with the triple crown of the preakness, and cisco is also a runner, up 20% by the end of the year. >> i love the connection. couldn't understand it. it had a big leak. wait for a pullback. >> jonas, your prediction. >> "godzilla" back in the movies, and an oil company is the future, up 15%. >> john, bull or bear? >> how about that connection, i am a bear. >> tracy? >> you have to love the brits, they did a study that said swearing is harmless and

unleashes emotional stress, and i feel bleeping better whenever i swear. >> john, join in? >> my mom watches please, watch your mouth. >> neil is next. government waste gone wild. a whistle blower blowing the leadoff obamacare contract workers getting paid to do nothing. >> now, his voice was not modulat modulated, he sounded like that. that could have been a tell tale sign. and then