emphasizing low volatility stocks. it's done very well. i like it a lot. >> you were mentioning flying a commercial jet. i knew bumped into you ben that said you were the nicest gentleman and kindest guy on the planet. i admire that. >> you're kind to say that. >> more after this. the nightmare care at the va. is this a preview of what obamacare will bring to the u.s.? >> going to work no matter how big anybody's heart is, no matter how much they care, here is a microcosm of what obamacare is going to be if it's fully implemented. >> so is that just hyperbole or is that our future? hi everybody, welcome to forbes on fox. let's go in focus with steve forbes. so rich was rush on to something. >> rush is on to something.

rush understands something that big government liberals do not understand and that is you can't demand something into existence. if you're going to increase the demand for health care, whether it's to the veteran's administrations or obamacare and you're not increasing the supply through technology and market incentives, then you're going to have one of two things. you're going to have delays or prices going up. there's no way of avoiding the mathematics of this situation. >> so rick, just like the va, we're going to have fewer doctors treating a lot more people and therefore government bureaucrats are going to come in to say what you can and cannot do. >> rush may be on to something but he's not right about this. i have hammered the obama administration in everything i have written over the past two weeks. i think what's going on at the va is the worst thing we have going. >> but is it what we're going to see in obamacare. >> it has nothing to do whatsoever. >> why not? >> when i wrote a big check this

week to my private insurance company, what was i writing that for if it has anything to do with the va? government is not providing health care in obamacare. they may have set rules, agreed but they do not provide health care. government does provide it. >> that's not true. medicaid is expanding tremendously as a result of obamacare. medicaid is a government run program. obamacare can't have it both ways. they on the one hand say obamacare is spreading insurance to everybody but on the other hand they're including medicaid numbers in that part of obamacare. >> yeah, the government may not be running health care the way they run the va but they're telling doctors how to do their procedures. one size fits all. an ophthalmologists didn't get paid because they didn't do it the way they wanted it done. they're telling insurers what

they can and can't offer. they're getting high deductib s deductibles. so yeah we're going to va land. just a smaller route. >> that article was art breaking. very often surgeons will find they had to change procedures. this doctor realized he had to change a procedure and he changed it in a way he wasn't paid off by medicaid. he did the work and she can see now. maybe not all doctors would. >> the rules of the affordable health care act are already causing premiums to skyrocket. premiums for individual and small group rates are growing at their fastest clip in three years, between 11 and 12%. this is something tt the president and obamacare supporters assured us would never happen. just like they said you can keep your doctor, premiums are going up just like they said they would not. >> you can't keep your hospital but sabrina finding a specialist is going to be very difficult to do. in fact, in canada which is what

we can compare what we're going toward. after pour weeks, only 39% of patients can get a specialist in canada. 76% of us in the u.s. can right now but maybe not in the future. >> this is why i'm sorry but rick is in fantasy land right now. the va system is a platonic ideal for those that support obamacare. but this is a perfect example of what happens when everyone has coverage but no one has care. the reality is we want the kind of system good for men for women for veterans, for civilians and that's a market based system that allows individual to have choice and markets respond to demand. >> john, right now, congresswoman pelosi is suggesting that the fix for the va is obamacare but, in fact, isn't obamacare an example of where we're going just like the va did? >> i think absolutely. for all the military's virtues

it is a bureaucracy. it's not run by free marketsor price signals. it's no surprised that it's marked by rationing and bad health care outcomes. in the case of obamacare, the government is going to have a bigger role in how health care is apportioned. that's going to rob it of market signals and we're going to see the va large on the u.s. health care system and the lucky ones will get out of it. >> we're already starting to see it already in terms of rationing. you see with mammograms they're trying to deny it to women under 50 and going to doom thousands of women to unnecessary deaths from breast cancer. >> and fellow columnist of yours, compared obamacare plans with private care plans in the same area and found that cardiologists and obgyns, there will be far fewer specialists

away. >> i haven't had a chance to review it and maybe come up with something different but i hardly know where to begin with the things that i have heard in this segment. let me start with mike here. no, premiums have not gone up to their highest in three years. what has gone up is the total expenditure on health care but what's fascinating is when it was coming down during the recession area years nobody was giving credit to obamacare. now that it's going back up as people can join the system it's obamacare's fault. it's ridiculous and fantasy land, sabrina, show me how the va is the same as obamacare. a lot of people, mike, would say that the price was coming down from 2009 because of the recession when people have less money in their pockets, they spendle spend less on medical care. >> sorry rick, you had your chance. morgan stanley that did the survey when they asked the question the insurers said it's

the rules such as how they structure prices and so forth. look david, when you have senator harry reid taking to the senate floor to say that the people complaining about the service under obamacare are liars. that's when you really know the policy. >> or the people talking about obamacare are racist. >> right. they can't defend the numbers so they're throwing out names. >> issabrina. >> it's not rocket science. when you provide something for free for everyone it can't work. we're going to have longer lines and corruption and rationed care. i was at the pediatrician with one of my children yesterday. i said my throat hurt too. he said i'd love to check you out. but i can't because i don't have a chart for you. i don't have a way of billing the insurance company. this is all going to get worse was his point. there's going to be fewer people going into the medical field because of this. there's going to be a lot of

losses. >> go ahead, rich. rick unger is right on the technical differences between the va and obamacare but the fundamental economics is exactly the same. when you increase demand but you haven't increased supply, in fact you're shrinking supply making it more difficult for doctors to practice, only one of two things can happen. prices will go up or there's going to be delays due to rationing. >> and john, we're already having that. that doctor in the wall street journal pointed out he had to go outside of the system. he was not paid back by medicaid for saving this little girl's sight. some doctors might say if i'm going to have to eat -- i can't afford to eat the cost of this operation. luckily that doctor could. >> absolutely. the problem with government getting involved in health care is they're trying to bring prices down but the simple truth is you want prices to reach their natural market level so that you get more doctors pursuing ways to cure patients. the problem with this system is that when you force prices down

like this, you get scarcity and you will see the va across the national health care system. >> rick go ahead. >> issabrina i'm going to bet y don't have an obamacare policy and i know you're not on medicare. if your doctor had to check a chart it's because that's what your private insurance company is making him do. the real rationers of health care. >> go ahead quickly. >> the point is its going to get worse. more restrictions on doctors and the prices are going to go higher. coverage doesn't equal care. >> i know you're not on medicare. i know that for a fact. ladies and gentlemen, thank you very much. coming up next, the view usually leans to the left. so why did the audience and most at 1:00 p.m. ctually applaud

for america's news headquaters. now back to forbes on fox. check out what happened when dr. ben carson gave his view about welfare in america. >> when you take somebody and pat them on the head and say there there you poor little thing i'm going to give you food stamps -- i'm going to give you a house -- let me finish the thought. >> finish the thought. >> let me give you housing subsidy. let me give you free health care because you can't do that and it's those people over will causing you to have your problem -- wait a minute.

>> we are almost close to wrap. what would be much more empowering is to use our intellect and resources to give those people a way up and out. >> i agree. >> so you heard the audience. even the view agrees with carson on this. is there real chance for welfare reform. a city like new york over 20 years cut welfare roles to 350,000. i think you see -- you can see the mood in the nation. if people have real troubles, yes. you have the safety net but people don't want dependence. they want a vibrant economy which this president has not delivered. >> is there chance for real reform again? >> i have to be honest and say i didn't see the support of the view that others seem to have seen. >> we heard them clapping. >> there's a few in the audience that will clap. >> we report. let them decide. >> the issue is how do you solve it. i think dr. carson is right as

it pertains to some people. i think whoopi goldberg was right when she said there's a lot of people on welfare that said they do want to work. why don't we spend effort and time and money separating out those people who actually need help versus those people that are gaming the system. >> well, john, we have spent a lot of money. by the way, this is the 50th anniversary of the great society speech of lbj that ushered in the welfare era we're living through now. look at the costs. the costs increased from 1964. $5 billion here to 565 to half a trillion dollars and what are the effects? not a lot. poverty has come down. of course we changed the way we define poverty. it's basically equal in term of the number of people and how they're living in poverty situations despite spending trillions. >> of course you can't fix poverty by empowering politicians.

if you want to fix it, it's simple. grow the economy which means shrinking government to leave more capitol in the private sector. the government is doing the wrong thing and that's why poverty remained where it is despite all the spending. >> rich, i was surprised. maybe rick didn't see it but i saw the audience approve and some member of the panel with the exception of whoopi approving of what carson was saying. that's a positive thing for me in terms of welfare reform, getting it in the future. >> it shows you the value of having a great spokesman. not people combative or trying to pick fights from the other side but speaking the truth. speaking it authentically and with empathy. that's what you get. i think what he tapped into was this revivore of conservative thinking represented by the applause by his fellow panelists. >> there is a question whether the american public have gotten used to the handouts and whether the voting block of those getting used to them increased

to such an extent that it's possible. but judging from what happened on the view i would say that's correct. >> i would think that people are really open to this idea and not simply because they understand that economic growth is the most important thing but i think they see what happens when government pushes out civic society. we all want to help people who are in need. we don't want this to be a go it alone society. we are far too wealthy and compassionate of a country to allow that to happen but when government gets in the way, when we have a $70 billion food stamp program we're crowding out churches and synagogues and schools that should be filling the need and helping those in their communities and that's really something that dr. carson would agree with. >> and the question is whether there is nonpartisan support. there's been a lot of democrats that have said that. that welfare can become a dependency. fdr warned about that. >> absolutely. the welfare started in wisconsin which has been the progressive

laboratory in this country for a century. i think it's bipartisan. >> will it happen in this presidency or the next one? >> i don't think much of anything is going to happen with what's left of this presidency given the congress. but i do like that rich kicked off the ben carson for president campaign butting dr. carson and ronald reagan in the same sentence. that was nice. >> i think the reason more people are moving toward welfare reform is people believe when people are suffering that the government should help them. we're in a economic recovery which we have been in for years and entitlement spending has been growing at a fast rate. that's when people realize that what this president is interested in is not in growth and a stronger economy but the redistribution of wealth and most people i don't think are for that. >> that's got to be the last word. coming up, washing oway our national monuments. a new scare tactic to push the global warming agenda that could cost us all. but forget the movie house, democratic leaders rolling out

the red carpet at the people's the red carpet at the people's house all to promote a

true business-grade internet comes the red carpet at the people's house all to promote a with secure wifi for your business. it also comes with public wifi for your customers. not so with internet from the phone company. i would email the phone company to inquire as to why they have shortchanged these customers. but that would require wifi. switch to comcast business internet and get two wifi networks included. comcast business built for business. >> they trashed this beautiful planet. these two brothers are trying to buy america. they're as un-american as anyone i can imagine. >> i guess bashing the koch brothers isn't enough because also using a room in the capitol

to screen a moving slamming the billionaires. now republicans are filing an ethics complaint for using the people's house to promote a partisan film like this. john, you say this is no way to use our tax dollars. >> you know, i love when harry reid speaks. every word he utters helps the freedom movement. this is great what you just showed. i don't like the idea of taxpayer money having anything to do with the screening of a right wing documentary or a left wing one. it's a good thing the republicans are filing an ethics complaint. i wish both sides would do this more often when taxpayer money is wasted. >> is there substance to this complaint? >> sure there is. if you think we were wasting taxpayer dollars when john boehner hosted a screening of their film in the same place and if we waste the tax players doctors when representative randy forbes, no relation,

hosted a newt gingrich citizens united film in the same place. none of it was wasting taxpayer money and neither is this because all the people that staffed the visitor center would have been working there even if somebody didn't push the button on the dvd. >> but it's such a nasty attack against a group of business people that created tens of thousands of jobs. helped make america energy independent. >> john has it right. we shouldn't have any of this on capitol hill. if harry wants to bash the koch brothers rent a theater and show that silly film. in term of the koch brothers, they're minor leaguers but they know how to villanize people. >> it's been awhile. it's like jp morgan back 120 years ago. remember that? well, you don't remember.

but it happened. >> i'm not that old david. >> yeah. >> just be careful david, you and i are the same age. >> let me read a part of a statement from the koch brothers about all this. they said it's troubling that senior democratic party leaders are using taxpayer resources to publicize this dishonest propaganda. is it right for them to use our money to promote this film? >> no, it's not and rick unger makes a very valid point about republicans doing the same thing but a agree with john. the left has reached it's weird moment when they think that the koch brothers of wichita, kansas pull all the strings in the united states. >> i completely agree. i actually find this slightly humorous. democrats are so far ahead of republicans on campaign tactics and research and testing yet these two brothers seem to send them into a tail spin. so the only thing that makes any

sense in my mind is it just fits into their class warfare narrative and they have to keep pushing forward with it. >> coming up, kim and kanye are getting hitched as the wedding season kicks off and to

>> it's wedding season. our informer versus ts have the that keep giving. >> i like them. they keep a close eye on their

budget. >> do you like it or not? >> there's passionate devotion to dr. pepper so yes. >> the container store. why do you like it? >> married couples need to store their goosd. it's a great >> we use a lot of containers in our house. >> that's it for forbes. have a wonderful memorial day weekend. stay tuned. eric is next. >> they went to war for us. now our government is waging war on our veterans as the va scandal explodes. president obama says he found out about it by watching the news. well, we've got some more breaking news for you mr. president. we dug up some dirt on the va. it's a cashin in expose you won't want to miss. plus global warmers warning national monuments could be washed away because of climate change. how these ridiculous scare tactics could wash our tax dollars down the river. and then.