and myself, i am kenedy wishing you a great night. that will do its. we will see you tomorrow. >> our party is encumbered by the inconsistent approach to freedom. >> all americans support freedom in principle gambling has a negative consequences. >> and when they gave frayed freedom to gay people to marry. >>. bill: to police though world? conservatives want a bigger military. >> we don't do this for them but for us. >> stronger border patrol but when i criticize that what the conservatives said this about me say.

>> libertarians want governme to leave us alone even if we make choices others disagree with. >> that does not sit well with conservatives semiti turn of libertarianism is a very dangerous spot. >> libertarian versus conservative. that is our show. tonight. ♪ john: the biggest threat to america's future is big government most conservatives and libertarians agree with the $17 trillion debt may crush them but the politicians promise to spend more when they're not spending your money they pass more rules to strangle freedom and killing growth and they agree government should stop trying to micromanage the economy to have religious

freedom and free speech and a more limited welfare state because it is better. ironclad we agree but when it comes to foreign policy and personal freedom libertarians and conservatives differ most oppose gay marriage than one-tenth gambling began as well assisted suicide and designer babies. that is in a future show but the biggest difference is libertarians think the war on drugs is just nuts. alan west is so broad conservativend looks like one on the cover of his book you say we cannot survive if we continue to advocate the freedom to choose but by beginning intoxicants? you take away people's freedom to choose. >> you're not talking to the best of gys have never

smoked or drank in my life. john: then you are a good conservative. you made a personal choice. >> of somebody wants to make up personal choice than that is fine but forget the supreme you court justice to say you cannot throw a punch into my nose. john: i can shoot heroin? >> i am concerned as someone comes to the government to take car of that. >> but something sadder very detrimental to the individual and society. you have to make sure with the level of responsibility is there as well. my point is the federal government has allowed people to be less and less

responsive of the will take care of it. john: when you say personal responsibility how is that if the government bans something? >> we have people that don't want to except it. i was the designated driver for most of my buddies. they're choice is i want to go what. john: they're choice was to drink a somebody else wants to snort cocaine wide you want to stop them? >> that is up to society what is the long term gain to sort cocaine? john: don't they owned their own body? >> been due within your own sphere it is in new york city we saw a executives the film on wall street what he was doing.

and if you want to be responsible for that violent to be the of one responsible i'd want to be the one that suffers the consequences john stossel is high on cocaine that is why we have laws. that is why we have to be adult salmon be smart and have rules and regulations. >> but for someone gets high and injures someone but why is getting high illegal? >> it is the overall concern what is the detriment people talking about sugary soda but i believe you have a government that gives it to the overreach.

john: why is that but not heroin? >> because i think it is the different type of substance than the big gulp soda. john: you never drink because? >> i never saw my parents drink. john: you were never curious or to alter your consciousness? >> i like to be responsible and make the right decisions john: do you fault those who do? >> know that is why was a designated driver. john: with the founders? >> they were throwing back ad nauseam. >> of bar tab for george washington was at 54 bottles and 60 bottles to bottles of wine for every delegate who were getting wasted. >> i like libertarian's

verses conservatives. i think fell one thing we can come to agreement that is bad for the country. john: we agree on that. >> the tax and the freedom issue. >> to hire who we wanted and speak freely to raise our kids the way we want to. >> we believe bin opportunity for ourselves and future generations. that is where a big government has gone. john: should people be allowed to gamble? very i think they should. of you want to allow gambling, that is your money. now if all of a sudden you get yourself into financial debt that is your problem. john: gave marriage? >> civil unions for others?

>> i have problems with burning the flag. that was what was draped over why bother is coughing and my brothers and my now have a problem. john: i do also but i say it should be the goal. thank you allen west. another form of recreation were most do not agree is gambling.o bet i play poker and will that do most anything peace plan dash baseball games coming election which with the ball rolls there they go in my state the legal is online at organized betting and it and some states even bets between french our against all lot that is rarely enforced but they can be jailed.

many consider it a sin. bill o'reilly gives me a hard time. >> you can get addicted, it is fine and you could lose the rent money it is like narcotics. john: narcotics? i doubt it is as addictive as cocaine but as a libertarian once i am an adult it should be my choice >> but libertarians are wrong about that says my next guest. why? >> people tried to defend it but it touches other people. it is all the more incentive to act morally where domestic violence increases increases, as substance abuse and suicide increases

the suicide capital is las vegas. economically spiritually socially there is of a way that conservative christians would be against gambling. >> why can't we do what we want? it is my money, my choice. >> talk about morality. jefferson called the self evident truth there all in doubt by their creator with the unalienable rights with life and liberty the pursuit of happiness. the realization to call it the ten commandments. john: but why can't i bet? the moral code means i have a choice. >> no man is an island they have a ripple effect. there are misconceions about the odds of winning

and the perceived benefit. john: if i want to risk my money playing blackjack. >> i will acknowledge the 800-pound elephant we have to recall knowledge god. the founding fathers believed in god and the moral code. if you don't want to be a christian you don't have to do but don't destroy what gives you the freedom not to be a christian. to know what i mean? john: no. my relationship with god is personal i can only make a moral choice if i am free to gamble or not campbell. a few bay and its you make the choice for me. >> so you come to god contingent on the freedom to gamble. john: or choose god or not it is detrimental contrary

to the message we want to send to our children and their descendants. john: some kids learn math through playing poker. >> america use age 12 through 1780 percent have dabbled in gambling. we're teaching our kids that money is not to be handled responsibly and indebtedness is okay. john: i think they learn to handle money responsibly. we agree to disagree. thank you alex mcfarland. use the #. the term sounds weird but it sell one dash stands for top libertarians on twitter or top conservatives on twitter you can see what they are saying. prostitution. gay marriage. immigration.

the size of our military military, the fight between libertarians and conservatives continues.

john: i don't care who you

marry a bit is that your own gender, find. most libertarians say that is fine. mosaic it should be a private contract between consenting adults. and where they clearly a differ harrisburg issam as the supreme court declared restrictions. >> those to hurt the most are the children of america because very clearly every the child deserves a mom and the dad. >> they are offensive on so many levels. they're attacking something they have no jurisdiction over the foundational unit of our society. >> a loving the gays to merry threatens that? i don't get that. how does that brought in my marriage? here to educate me is right and anderson author of what

his marriage? eight defense it sounds like you feel under attack. >> has been the last 40 or 50 years it is not the same-sex relationships or out of wedlock childbearing but people have limited government that the family is the heart of civil society you cannot have it without a strong civil society to encourage a man and woman to commit as husband and wife. john: why can the government encouraged to men or to women to do the same thing? >> once you get rid of the male or female aspect. >> but the white man and one woman to unite with every new life theft as one mother

and one father if it is just another adult romance then why not very the people you love? of it is just adults than white should not just be temporary the you create something. john: but you allow people the law are infertile to marry or too old to bear children summit is not just about childbearing. >> but every child is the product of a union of the man and noblemen and children deserve to be raised for those who created them and they're protecting the child to grow up to be a self-sufficient autonomous a bill to does not rely of the state. john: hughes says to lesbians will not do better than a selfish man question mark we don't have that many studies but every child deserves to have the man and so will then who created the

child raise the child. >> what about those of adoption or in vitro? >> we're not penalizing these activities but we don't want to incentivize either. the colleges take them randomly from hospitals but the idea and the mother and father taken hold but if they're unable we recognize adoption is necessary but nobody would suggest it is the ideal. john: to have a problem with homosexual one decimal such remedy? >> it does not matter from the policy perspective we can leave our personal feelings aside with the policy concerns but the photographer or the baker or the adoption agency is penalized by the government for wanting to treat a man and woman that is

distinctive. they are forced out for orphans because they try to find men and women. john: libertarians would agree but if i open a business i should be able to serve anybody that i want that the judge orders the of bakery it was cater the same-sex marriage. but a wedding photographer photographer, a florist that is outrageous but as somebody said they ought to have the right the governor of arizona backed off there is the new gay mafia policing to say you cannot even disagree with the. >> we should be able to voice opinions. if you think that photographer then don't hire her. you don't have to have the government give her a fine.

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john: sex is legal there are some laws against it in some states but what is not legal is prostitution so? is okay in making money is okay but sex for money is not. radio host monica crowley has volunteered to explain

it to me. >> pinterest and the freedom argument i am not adverse to that argument on though libertarians side make it is a good and a service and supply and demand i can appreciate that argument but i think the social cost is far too high that legalize prostitution to decriminalize tears at the social fabric in and of say that once the door is open if you legalize prostitution it is a gift to pence and six traffickers. john: if it is legal you don't need up camp. >> hugh had hidden and child prostitution it opens the door to a lot of darkness. john: s.a. in the opposite is true. that happens weather in the dark but if it is legal there is no darkness but

mcadoo had some statistics in front to me that it does lead to the increase of child prostitution it doesn't protect women's health or the? industry experience it. john: austin pick, germany, greece, mexico holland illegal china, egypt, and croatia is seems civilization is on the side of the legal work. >> to the united states is of a special case there is the puritanical strain but this country is also founded on judeo-christian morals and ethics and that comes into play. it may change over time we have seen their views on gate marriage but at this moment the consensus is widespread that prostitution and should remain a legal. john: what you say to the women that i interviewed

this is my body a quarterback can use his money this is how i make money. >> but they wear clothes. john: that makes the difference it? >> when they say it is my body my choice i argue prostitution is not just your body you have a client's you may have a third person involved steven of more than one person. john: share a the happiness. >> but what makes sex a different issue is even if you use protection and it is regulated it is still in the process that could lead it to another life summit is more sacred than and drug use. >> nevada prostitution is legal not and las vegas but other counties i once interviewed the workers at the bundy ranch and told them it is supposed to be spontaneous nodded business

deal the state department calls the inherent the demeaning. >> who made the laws? don't you model for many? it is the same thing. john: it is different and more intimate. >> this is what i want to do john: you have no other options. >> i have several options before this i had a nice paying job. john: why do you do this? to make because i want to libertarians say once you are an adult that should decide is on is you don't directly hurt somebody else to make if they feel compelled to express themselves that way then they can go there but for the country we have reached the national consensus the united states does not want to condone this activity. john: thank god for that. >> for now. yes. indeed. john: my next guest is a conservative who wants a

bigger military. i don't i worry about making

john: i blind to america that to be safe. we differ on the best way to do that. libertarians one less spending and less involvement of other countries' problems. some conservatives respond to that this way. >> this strain that is going to both parties right now with the big headlines is a very dangerous thought. john: some call them isolationist. i am glad americans trade with other countries with the idea is to come off how to run the world and it

seems that conservatives do. >> and to call that the un fair description. >> most of what you just said is irrelevant to decision making from the conservative point of view. of basis on what's the interest is to understand how best to protect its what country affair can i get involved in today? would earn the interest in how best do we protect them? john: with the specifics you supported the iraq war. you think we should use force to stop iran? >> correct. >> i have said that for a long time. so with that a peaceful means but now we're down to

a situation rather own a two alternatives either iran gets nuclear weapons or somebody uses force. it is not a choice we do not have to be there but that is where we are. contrary to some the people of iran are smart enough to understand if we attack the nuclear weapons program but helped to overthrow the regime the people of iran will be in a better place than they are today. john: they won't pay to us? >> they will but the idea is popular. >> the with vietnam it is always easy after the fact to second-guess the hell come. you could say for example, that the war in iraq did not go well. but the overthrow of saddam hussein was done brilliantly. i would do with again

knowing everything we know about the events after words john: but we spent so much more than any other country and these troops all over. 50,000 in japan self korea almost 30,000. they freeloads off of america. >> they do pay a considerable part of the base expenses but many allies to get have their fair share. but we don't do it for them but for us but. >> how does it help to have 30,000 soldiers in south korea? >> win enemies are overseas sometimes the best place to be is overseas. john: in some things they ask the military to do trade foreign military to shoot terrace, a secure the internet, containing china china, it keeps the oil

cheap summer protect other countries, a stop genocide genocide, protecting innocent people and turn failed states into democracies that you do not support. the list is endless steve mcfadyen is your list but for example, that does not include the concept of deterrence ian dissuasion in-house the notion that american strength convinces adversaries not to challenge us in the first place. the romans used to say if you want peace prepare for war. john: but they did not stop china they did not stop russia from attacking and ukraine. >> because the navy is shrinking. john: but they wouldn't have done it? to regressions look to the obama administration and concluded they saw a weakness in decided to exploit did. john: with more money they wouldn't? >> it is not money but the

overall policy to persuade the russians that the venture is some would be met with a response by the united states. john: why quit to our own to stand upon foreign ground? so then we untangle our peace with their ambitions. this was from george washington and conditions have changed. >> that is standing. john: but with a world war i never buildup for intervention has been that successful. we won the cold war because their economy caved in on itself and it would have anyway. >> some believe that but what washington was saying for a country like united states in 7897 to have the option to stay out of european conflicts only makes good sense but it was washington that led the of

continental or three. there is of man who knew how to use force effectively i'd like other presidents since then. john: john bolton. think you are will argue about immigration and i will steal the hayek phrase to explain why i am not a conservative.

john: i know. i m sorry i was too polite with my questions for john bolton but national defense is not my specialty slidell push him very hard but next time i will push harder and will not hold back. the first time i interviewed lou dobbs and gave him a hard time to criticize outsourcing and free trade civic this country cannot clothe itself. john: wardresses for less money. >> was it is the last time you bought the suits of clothes? if prices went down i would be shot. >> here is the price index for clothing it has gone down and down. >> unsurprising he did not like what i said about him

on his radio show. >> what a self important as he is unbelievable and as i understand basic economics he is just the silly little tract waiting to do with libertarian flip. he is just unbelievable i cannot wait until he starts blowing bubbles of the air that is about all he is equipped to do. john: here we are together isn't fox great and american agree to be candidates? benitez. it isn't john stossel great to have a sense of humor that carries over so many decades. the indiscrete to work with you. i must have been exercised i am sure it was unjustified. [laughter] john: okay. >> are you keeping score?

what is this? john: this is combative. how would you protect the border. >> a meeting between the president of mexico and united states to find out what is the plan for the population of america? and we will do as we have before and we will about down before you to do whatever you wish. >> and to decide who comes in to run our country. john: aren't these individuals? >> no. you don't want it to be the u.s. government because you are libertarians so be bowed down and let mexico decide

the immigration policy and you call that libertarian freedom. john: just to be clear this one says we need borders and border protection now people want to come here to murder us because we have a welfare state in what have said all but immigration. >> 1870 is right. >> are immigrants in general good for america? finigan are great if we are great for americans -- immigrants we have a society that makes decisions to we want we just want a couple of things don't demand we speak your language. john: what about a pass?

>> what about the path that technology is responsibilities to become citizens to put them in a position for everyone that has been in that illegal wind. i know it sounds harsh. it is almost tortured. john: astounds impractical. >> now that is the standard. john: he has a book called border wars it is fiction but the lead character sounds it sounds like you were talking about you. they both try to shut him up on illegal immigration to portray him as the economic isolationist. that is kind i'd like when you were at cnn. there is a certain composite

you were at the old place. remember but the fact is i him in such a happy new plays. john: border patrol agents are signed the impossible job that they could not secure the border and told not to apprehend and not too many undocumented people or risk their careers if they tried. >> now they arebeing told not to apprehend them at all. it has been suspended by this administration. >> they are deported more people than bush? >> and in fact, they have acknowledged the numbers were phony. john: thank you lou dobbs. i used to be a liberal but then i became libertarian i did not become a

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john: years ago in high school the of philosopher hayek wrote bsa one of why i am not a conservative the postscript to the constitution of liberty. hayek said the conservative position rest on the belief there are recognizably superior persons whose standards and the values ought to be protected he regards it as his mission by voluntary and unhampered intercourse but the blessings of efficient government that was of sarcasm its eppley 30 years to realize it but now am i libertarian everyone ought to be able to do the thing that is peaceful high on my own body i should be allowed to take drugs and do it

moral things are in the state as long as i don't directly harm somebody else. conservatives alike what i do have every right to tell me i am a jerk and to boycott or refuse to hire or embarrass me. societies influence has a social terror and the more formidable to any political persuasion to penetrate more deeply. so america benefits when they speak out against immoral behavior it makes people think about what is moral and sometimes a shapeless and to being better people. but it force of law is another. using kellogg means people with guns demand everyone behaves of played the majority thinks they should. government should avoid using that power because it has nasty unintended

side-effects. prohibition by driving activities underground into the black market causes crime and increase in secrecy. even violence and other countries. and persuasion is better than government force. many people tell me that is not enough. this man says he is not a libertarian. >> they are just a littleo free. baby discipline -- we needed discipline. john: i am for a law-and-order physically harming others most libertarians also support against fraud and pollution. we just want to limit on government power. libertarianism or liberalism

was a reaction against the monarchy and repressive religion the declaration of independence says individuals have fallen alienable rights that means even if i disagree with your choice the state must not take your choice is the way. to bet on the stanley cup that will be your choice. hayek also wrote one of the fundamental trades is the distrust of the new the conservatives use the powers to prevent change to lack faith and spontaneous forces of adjustment is difficult to reconcile with preservation of liberty. john: it is the when i became libertarian i was struck by the a different reactions with liberals verses conservatives they were willing to debate they will come to me at

conferences even though they disagree. by contrast open minded liberals wanted nothing to do with me. thought i had a fair shot with the debate with one to hosted a radio show. he was smart he would see the damage is a giant welfare state causing and our kids were in schools together i am sure he would debate me. nope. he screamed at me. the radio host was this man. >> i am al franken the end to right-wing dominance the beginning of the battle for truth, for justice and of battle in. ♪ america itself not to be grandiose. john: please. now he is the senator. he would die debate we she just yelled. i'd never found much

openness in the liberal media why i left abc and happily came here we're liberals and conservatives are eager to debate. that is our show call. the rest is history. kennedy: scandals, like a swarm in locus. the president has been frhtened by scandals. from spine to lying, guns to the irs and ungodly. what we have decided to put together, a list of these landmines. see which ones will tear apart his legacy. obama scandal countdown. this is "the independents."