one very well linkedin. >> i love them. right onp. >> vanguard. millenials, just buy the whole thing. >> iraq collapsing, oil prices spiking. al qaeda inspired militants threatening more cities and a major refinery as they blitz through oil rich iraq. lots of calls to send u.s. help over there and now we can also protect ourselves at the pump here back at home by starting to build the keystone oil pipeline right now. are they right? hi, everybody, i'm liz mcdonald's in for david asman welcome to forbes on fox. now, steve, the spreading chaos in the middle east, more proof

we need to get moving on becoming less dependent on mideast soil? >> absolutely. we should have that kind of a back up. the pipeline should have been approved years ago. also the white house should rule restrictions on federal lands on drilling for gas and oil and they should also green light. so bull market there. more supply and we'll get through this crisis but we have to get the signal out there and the white house is not giving it. >> rick, we have them saying it and the nebraska governor saying we have a route for you, why not build the keystone. >> actually, i don't know that you can draw this strong connection between the terrible things happening in iraq and the value of the keystone pipeline would add in bringing down prices. it might bring it down a tiny bit but most experts will tell you it's not going to be huge. but i will make a prediction

that's going to make each and every one of you very happy. you noticed that last week the president announces 30% reduction in carbon, right? why would he do that at such a strange time with some key democratic candidates hanging in the balance? i'll tell you why. very soon, he is going to announce that he is approving the keystone pipeline and he was thrown a bone to the environmentalists when he made that announcement. it's going to happen. >> we have the democrat wanting it. but let me take it to rich. the point about whether or not there were low prices, look at the memo from the energy department to the state department in june 2011, quote, it says that gas prices in all markets served by these refineries that serve the gulfc would decrease prices including in the midwest. again, we're referring to the refineries on the east and gulf coast. what do you make of that? >> well, i think that the keystone is a good thing and it would be a great signal, you

know? it would stop speculation. it would show that this government is serious about energy production. what is going on in iraq is tragic right now. i think it's a long-term blip. it was at an energy conference in houston this week. the reserve in north dakota is going to be dwarfed by what's happening in texas right now. things happen in mexico and mexico decided to privatize their oil industry. that's going to be huge. so from canada to north dakota through texas and mexico, we're just going to be a wash in oil. >> so here's the thing, to his point, there's almost certain stubbornness that drains people of all common sense. when you have the energy department saying, hey, wait a second, if you have to not do the keystone pipeline and you rely on shipping to asia, that's 10 times the miles you're going to ship, you know, that oil from canada to asia. that adds to the cost. also, if you have the keystone, get this mike, you would

basically be able to ship oil and mid continent oil through the refineries via the keystone. so it seems like supply would go up and the prices would go down. what do you think, mike? >> i wouldn't call it stubborn. i would call it stupidity. this thing should have been approved years ago. one of the benefits would have been our economy would have been stronger and as to what's pertaining to the middle east, the president would then have gone out and got the military because our economic growth had been so weak. that's my real concern is he's gutted our military at the time al qaeda is getting stronger. >> and also you can't have a strong economy with national security. sabrina schafer, oil is part of national security. listen here, to mike's point, we've got a really shaky recovery and if you have gas prices going up, that threatens that very rickety recovery. what do you think? >> this is a president that's spoken passionately for a need for environmental regulations

and for energy independence and allowing the keystone pipeline to move forward would check off three of those boxes. the problem is that we suffer from this fossil fuel alarmism here in the united states which is driven all by the fringe environmentalists and as they said there's no blanket of regulations large enough to allow them to throw their weight behind the keystone pipeline but this is truly absurd. >> this is about energy independence. isn't that what the whole country and i think it was a bipartisan push for decades to have energy independence. so why not build the keystone? >> well, i'm all for building the keystone pipeline but let's not mistake a couple of things here. we don't have a supply problem and evidence supporting that is all the oil coming online around the world when oil prices are still high. oil is high today because the bush and obama administration have not protected the dollar. if you want to see oil prices drop you must do as reagan and clinton did and protect the dollar and oil prices will decline. i love keystone but it has

nothing to do with the price of oil. >> let me take it to steve forbes. to the point, getting back again to energy independence, i feel like we're in this post bubble that only the government can fix everything. that the economy still in the protective custody of the administration. where's the executive order for keystone. >> he doesn't decide to do it because he doesn't really want it and even if he approves keystone, he'll find ways to put obstacles in the way so this thing drags out and drags out and in terms, yes, trouble in the middle east has spiked oil even if we had a stable dollar you get these events and you get a temporary spike so the key thing is we have supply and more supply. you find more uses for it so it's a virtuous circle. so let it happen. >> i thought you were it. >> i don't understand why we equate keystone to energy independence. rich layed it out beautifully. the keystone pipeline doesn't

create energy independence. it adds more oil to the world oil picture which could have an impact on world prices. >> but there's an energy department memo saying it would help oil prices here at home. what do you make of what he's saying? >> i think it's a very important signal, the keystone pipeline, the later power this week that spiked and it went down. he has to make an important statement about the keystone pipeline. will it have an immediate economic impact? probably not. long-term it will. long-term, the huge thing is all of this oil that exists along the plain states, canada and mexico, i think in the long-term, i'm very optimistic about this situation, as bad as it seems today. >> sabrina, final point, we didn't get to the point about the rail cars being like weapons of mass destruction. even the state department put

out a report. saying there would be no death, one injury, there would be six deaths and 49 and shipping by rail. this doesn't even have to be government getting involved, right? this is a $7 billion private operation that will create an estimated 20,000 construction alone. the marketplace could really be set free if the government would allow him. >> quickly, final point. >> again, i love keystone but it will make us more energy independent. that's a good thing. but it means more imported oil. that's beautiful but let's not mistake it for energy independence. >> good point. gang, you were great. up next, sleepless in seattle. workers there winning the minimum wage war. but now, some of their bosses are suing. why this is the case

eastern for america's news headquaters. now back to forbes on fox. >> welcome back. let's go over to seattle where these workers won their fight for a $15 minimum wage. that's the highest in the country. but now, a group of franchise business owners are fighting back with a lauit to stop it. we're going to take it to our guest. rich, you say we all better hope they win. how come? >> you know, seattle has been in a boom and now at the very apex

of their boom, part of which includes this great tourism industry and restaurants and so forth, this $15 minimum wage is going to put serious hurt on the restaurants and service workers. it sounds good. seattle is an expensive place to live. 15 dollars an hour is not much. it's just that it won't work. tips are going to go down. jobs are going to disappear. it's going to have a negative impact. >> what do you think rick? we're already hearing from businesses that are going to have to lay off people. >> i have bad news. they're going to lose this lawsuit almost for a certainty. the city government has every right to pass this kind of a law. but have to call all of my friends here on the panel out a little bit. icon constantly sit here and listen to you complain about federal government having too much power. where it ought to reside is the city government and the local government. now you have a local government taking action for only their city and you're complaining about that. is it about government going to the cities or is it about you

only like city government getting involved if you like what they pass? let seattle happen. let's see how this experiment works out. this is what you always support. let it happen. >> to rick ungers point, 11 business leaders were on the panel that voted for the wage hike. what do you think about that? >> the constitution protects private property. it's also private property. i transact for how much i want per hour in the business and you'll be able to choose how much it pays me so i love this lawsuit. business should protect their rights and we as individuals should protect our rights to get jobs. >> excuse me. i'll come to you in a second. so what, you pay on the buck an hour. that's okay. >> no one is putting a gun to your head to work for a dollar an hour. seattle is booming. odds are most would have to pay more. >> let's let carrie in. >> bad policy is bad policy at

whatever level. i'm a proud alumni of minimum wage. i made tacos at taco bell. i was lucky to have that job. >> how much did you get an hour. >> i was in utah and missouri. so whatever. >> so you were a buck an hour. i was lucky to have those jobs but seattle is going to say guess what young people, most likely to be layed off, hispanic, african american young people. it will hurt them the most and this liberal policy of it feels good is going to hurt people the most. what we need is the earned income tax credit. >> that's interesting. steve forbes, so her point it's going to knockout the bottom rung. that's been the debate of the people that need the jobs most. do you agree with that? >> it's absolutely true. if you're going to hire somebody at minimum wage you're not going to have to go to older workers. so younger people that don't have the skills, especially from the minority kmcommunity will b

hurt and there will be more kiosks so it's counter productive and this is what happens in an economy where you have stagnation. you get this silly destructive and self-destructive legislation. >> you see that at panera bread and applebee's. the self-check out at grocery stores. but why not let the seattle experiment fly and see what happens? we have been saying, let local cities decide for themselves. what do you make of that argument? >> well, rick vieth. the problem is this is all about politics and not good policy. i was at a con vens this week as well and it was all about women voters. 2-thirds of whom are minimum wage earners are women. the problem is they're presenting this as a way to alleviate poverty but that's not because people are in low paid fast food jobs it's because they don't have access to jobs at all. less than 9% of people living in

poverty who are 16 and older had full time work. 67% didn't have work at all. this is the problem. it's not the low wages. >> so rich it slammed those that are poor. is that what you think too? >> well, of course it does. and it could set in motion a bunch of things that could be destructive for seattle's growth. let us not forget in the 1970s seattle is so busted there was a billboard that said will the last person to leave seattle please turn out the lights. so cities rise, cities fall on bad or good economic policy. >> rick, seattle's minimum wage now is even bigger than washington state's minimum wage. >> it is a little bit bigger than the average in washington state and yet you have all been sitting here telling us how great -- >> the state's mandated minimum wage. >> but seattle does pay more. you're right about that. also keep in mind this minimum wage is going to grow gradually. i have to highlight, i heard

sabrina say i was right. so what i want to say is good night folks and according to steve there won't be any more waitresses left. >> go ahead quickly. >> this is a price control. we know from the nixon era that price controls fail and are bad for the economy. >> this is a form of a price control and they'll win that suit because there's a crazy discrimination against the franchisers. >> we'll be watching the lawsuit and bringing you the update on that one when it comes through. how bringing back scenes like this to america could save cities across america. that's coming up on cashin in but first the government throwing more money at college students and throwing more fixes at student loan problems and is at student loan problems and is that w

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welcome back. you can bet all those new college graduates and their parents know this truth. tuition is out of sight. up more than 40% since 2002 and so is the student loan debt to pay for it and that's why the president says he is issuing an executive order to cap student loan payments for some graduates. but all of these loans -- tuition is spiking. what do you mean? >> the more the government helps anything the more it ends up doing harms by providing easy loans and gauaranteeing loans ad things like that.

how many do they teach today versus 20 years ago? the government provides the money and the tuition goes up and the students end up with the tab. >> all of this government help and debt is causing tuition to go up. >> i heard the argument many times. the only problem with -- and i take the point, the problem is that to solve this problem by killing government loans to people that need them is the absolute same thing as saying, you know what, only wealthy people in this country get to go to college. that's not good for anybody. i support doing something if you can think of a good idea to solve this tuition problem and in the meantime, the senate not allowing people that have this debt to go refinances it at current rates, that was absolute nonsense. businesses get to do it every day. why can't they. >> i hear your point, jut john, we're talking about the back end, tuition costs continue to go up. i am wondering when they're going to haul in, when is washington going to haul in oil

executives? why don't we see that. >> i want to see the line in the constitution that says taxpayers owe their fellow man a college education. but to steve forbes' point when government is subsidizing it they have no incentive to reduce their prices. so we need to fix the government's involvement in a business they shouldn't be involved in. >> it's there 1.2 trillion in student debt. tuition cost going up. this clearly is the bubble in search of a pin. what is the pin here? >> unfortunately obama has given us such a horrible recovery that one of the only ways he feels he can get votes is to give people things for free. but as steve and john pointed out the colleges aren't student. they know that the students are getting free money and they raise prices. the way you make college more affordable is you get an economic recovery so people earn more money and colleges get

competition like from online learning and that's going to actually impact lower prices. >> to mike's point about the diplomas that work in the marketplace. >> we have a fundamental disconnect between the ivory tower and the real world. a kid that studies the mating habits of orangatangs pay the same rates as studying economics and things that matter and make a difference in the real world. we need to calibrate the student loans because it's this vicious viral. the college presidents know that it's a never ending bucket of money from the government with no real reflection in the marketplace. >> but you have nothing against them right. >> i love them but i don't want to subsidize it. >> leave it there. tell your father to put away the grill this father's day weekend because he's about to get the

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>> do you like hertz? >> there's accounting irregularities that causes delay in their last quarter earnings release. >> thank you for watch david asman will be back next week. keep it right here for eric bolling and cashin' in. >> i'm very optimistic about iraq. it's going to be one of the great achievements of this administration. >> achievements for obama or al qaeda? terror groups make their way toward baghdad. what will cost america more? if we get involved or if we don't? >> plus their dream is becoming our costly nightmare. illegals are flying in and d.c. wants 2 billion more to deal with it. they enter the u.s. illegally but instead of blaming them perhaps we should be blaming the president for this surge. and then, remember when bill clinton made your head spin with quotes like this. >> it