thelrs are everywhere. john: let's make them pay. they are here everywhere. the lawyers claim he will solve our problems.l lock te will america lock these people a. >> i just wanted to put a sign >> we out but said that i was h in business. >> we had too many lives i thought were impacted by law. neil: john: now it is time for john stossel. [applause]> now

[cheers] john: don't you hate those lawyers who defend nasty diiminals?>> kaceyny, kacey anthony, others commented and she chloroform her kid to go out partying? o.j. simpson? and he stabbed his wife to death? but they were acquitted a goodso lawyers. defense lawyers even say that it's not my job to determine if a person is guilty or innocent,h every american deserves aeense. defense. lestery fight hard for some horrible people, child molesters and muggers and repress.s? and here's one of those despicable people. norman reimer, head of the association of criminal defensee s.wyers. so how can you live with yourself? >> i have been a criminalnse lai defense lawyer entire life and career and i am proud of it. the founders of the country had a brilliant idea that when

someone is accused of a crime and when the marshals the most awesome power that they have sort of warfare, the power to to prosecute and condemn and in p prison and kill and certainly to stigmatize, that person should f never stand alone and they should have a defense lawyer to stand with them. john: when you see the kacey anthony berger go down, you aref comfortable with our? >> uncomfortable with the idea that everyone deserves tha to he someone put the government to the test of whether or not theyh can prove the case beyond ae tha reasonable doubt. i'm uncomfortable with the idea that we have a much biggerbigg problem in this country with probable conviction than we have with wrongful acquittal.s is acr this is a country that is over criminalize and we need to have -- john: meaning to many lives and people in jail? in jai we will get to that.a early early in her career, hillary was clinton was a defense lawyer ia thatwashington freedom he can recently s discovered a recordig of her laughing and bragging

that she got a reduced sfoentene for man accused of raping a 12-year-old girl. [inaudible]d she aarently john: getht she apparently thout that the guy was guilty because she laughs about his passing a polygraph. so should she be ashamed of that? >> there's nothing to be ashamed of and representing someone. whether or not it's appropriate to be laughing, i don't know whether that was a nervous laugh or what it was, but i'm not here to defend hillary clinton. she was a defense lawyer for about five minutes and i have been a defense lawyer for about 30 years and i will proudly stand, frankly, with a person that is innocent or guilty because even the guilty deserve to have someone advocate for soe them to prevent the lowest moment in their life from of necessarily defining the rest of their lives. >> to run it with criminal

defense lawyers, the surveys of the rich professions contributing to the well-being. lawyers are at the bottom. >> when someone is in trouble in this country, when we are arresting 14 million people a ag year, they need to have someonet with them. >> i should point out that journalists come quite close of ee havttom. >> we have to live with those caricatures and that is a reality. john: i invited mormon on the show because he makes a good point. it's natural when something bad happens and the obvious thing to do is pass a law and politicians are all the time w and politicias do it all the time. they passed more every year and now america has so many criminal laws the government can't even count how many. we are buried in this.

politicians say they can solve all of our problems with lots, but no, they cannot. and so that is the criminal code. >> we made some excellent points, obviously. just to give you a perspective because numbers really do paint the picture. in 1900 we had about 100 federal criminal and today we have almost 5000 and if you count the criminal provisions that are buried in the regulations, it's more than 300,000 and as you said, they haven't even been able to count them. 2.1 million is the number of people who are imprisoned in this country as we did here tonight. we are the number one incarcerate or in the world in terms of per capita than actual numbers. >> more than china and more than russia and more than every country that we know of except north korea because we don't know about north korea.

but it's shameful and it's costing us a fortune. there are very few people left in this country that don't have a loved one or a neighbor or a coworker or a friend who has had some brush with the criminal law and we now have between 65 and 70 million people in this country with criminal records. >> the biggest crime is driving without a license. >> absolutely. >> most of those people are not being charged without driving without a license as any other reason. but there is a criminal offense and so because of that we are going to impede their opportunity for the rest of their lives. the other thing that we have to do is stop using the criminal law for every single thing. what we have done is use criminal law. >> the reason for the 2 million and shows mostly because people try to alter their consciousness by using drugs and people like o'reilly who showed the more

popular want tougher lies in tremont and people are so broke. >> i don't care if you were addicted or not and i don't care whether you have seven pills or not, these lead to death and that is provable. if you sell them we are going to spend a lot of time in prison. if we have prison overcrowding, we will do more with prisons. cemented waste of human resources and it is an economic waste. >> maybe crime is down because we lock up so many people. in fact, in those states and in texas, by the way, the states which has an over incarceration problem, they reduce the prison population in a same time they reduce their crime. >> he's right about that, thank you, norman. it's depressing thinking about people's lives being wrecked. so let's lighten things up and talk about the emergency

ordinance, yes, such a lot really exist, after idiot politicians actually believe this video depicting a supposedly giant hairy ape known as sasquatch or bigfoot was real. and they pass a law that makes it illegal for anyone to kill a sasquatch. >> the lot is also the title and he writes about that and says that the useless law is actually enacted. so how do we get the bigfoot law? >> there are two possible reasons and one is a sasquatch protection and the politicians aren't that dumb. >> in this case they may not have been, they may have been worried about people because it was either that or they won't protect her and trim production from people that do believe in that but wanted to run around

the forest to hand on something which seems like a bad idea. >> act of 1856 comments, still on the books, no artificial fertilizer at the time. it turns out a great place to get fertilizer is bird poop and a great place to get it is on islands where seabirds have lived undisturbed for thousands of years. so if you can imagine some of those islands had deposits up to 50 meters. john: i'd rather not imagine it. [laughter] >> so they pass a law that said if you encounter one of these, you can claim it and then it will effectively become part of the united states at least temporarily so that you can mine this down. john: going to take any furbearing animal buddies have been meant or other explosive compound.

is that right? >> guess, that's right. this is for -- you thought caddy shack was fiction, but in fact, it happens. you have a category, the government not minding its own business. would you need to get a ridiculous law and an example quickly, go to any state federal criminal code and look under the section that is usually called offensive against decencies and morals and you're guaranteed to find something that is completely ridiculous. >> in the criminal code in the books in idaho, laws against fornication. >> yes, that's right. so no one fornicate cinemark. [laughter] >> these laws are harmless, right? >> are you confident that someone will not use one of these laws to such harassment? john: no, i am not confident. but there is one place where there is some hope that people are rising up and that is minnesota. minnesota last year, the

governor had a program and they would go out and try to make lists of laws that were outdated or that they didn't need for some other reason like it was covered for federal law or something similar. so they managed to find or 1100 laws and they decided that they really didn't need them and they repealed all of them. >> 1100 laws gone. that is a start. john: for every law repealed, verify at once. to keep this conversation going and coming up, let us know what you think. a rich guy living in this fancy

apartment. he's dewdney and he just got put in jail. also, not all lawyers are evil, but they are the good guys that write to the rest do and we have that coming on. ♪ ♪

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>> the government tried to take her home. iraqi government wanted to bulldoze my home so someone else can live on my land. john: i thought your home is your castle. the government can just take her home and give it to someone a. big government uses a lot of things that seem to violate what is in here, the constitution. unfortunately a few lawyers will take your case and one is scott bullock of the institute for justice. >> when i heard about your firm and it seemed like a good idea, libertarians getting together, i said, are you kidding me?

the answer to anything can be more lawsuit. >> well, it can be because there is a vital need to have americans right protected and they are guaranteed in the constitution and they have to be protected by an engaged court system where judges actually police legislatures and executive branch officials in order to bring them in to make sure constitutional rights are protected and limits are respected. that is what the institute for justice is all about. >> is a relatively new group that you have. >> that's right, we have about a 70% track record of striking down laws or shaming legislatures and not to try to repeal the laws after retirement spam. john: and then we had this case about taking away someone's home. >> that's right, the domain was

designed to be used for public uses like roads or bridges and not for private development projects. >> taking this for the developer, they just put the hometown? >> now there is another the field filled with hellcats and demolition debris and that was a great example of when you do public interest and raise awareness. not only are you arguing the court of law but by the court of public opinion and as a result of that, we have seen an enormous backlash against the decision. a is a lot of good has come out of this decision. john: so you had another case of eminent domain. >> jefferson said that you have to be eternally vigilant in the fight for liberty because of governments are not going to stop violating liberty. so we are starting this the eminent domain abuse coming back

john: the lawyers against you say that we don't have to provide this on how we plan to use the land, they say the redevelopment. and the economic engine of the casinos in atlantic city is vital to the success of the state. >> absolutely outrageous, all of the atlantic city to knows are going bankrupt. and they have no idea what they're going to do. they just say that we want to take it now and we will figure it out later on and that's exactly what they did. and now nine years after the supreme court decision, there is no new tax revenue and nothing to show. >> the lawsuits that his institute files that make it hard for the little guy to start a business. >> all i wanted was a chance to earn an honest living but the

government said i could not. >> the government calls us allies. john: a van driver and a tour guide and a hairdresser. >> what they all have in common is they want to pursue an honest living free of interference. but what we too often our government is teaming up with large business interests to try to stop people from starting a taxicab company and it is a marriage of political power and private things. >> now there is a new one called animal massage? >> other animals can get it, but it's typically for horses, this is where athletes get regular

massages and horses also benefit from having massages, but arizona says you may not do this for money unless you become a licensed veterinarian and he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and have years of school and so even if people would go to that school, they don't teach it in the vet schools themselves. all this is about is lining the pockets, keeping them out of doing a legitimate business and apparently the horses and i'm great at the institute makes these videos. but isn't this a little too much? ♪

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>> we bought stuff from you and we had it checked out and it is counterfeit. >> we bought it right here. >> you didn't buy anything for me. >> that was stossel the consumer report and i spent years

confronting liars and cheats. i was frustrated because i couldn't punish the bad guy. so i was bad when lawyers got involved that suit the cheaters. and then i realized that often lawsuits do more harm than good and they take forever and they cost a fortune and sometimes the victim would tell me that i just got ripped off by my lawyer. the promise of a solution by lawsuit is just not what it's caught up to be. so now i'm glad there's a cool alternative called change.org. >> yes, it's the world's largest petition platform and we empower everyday people to create change on the causes that they care about and we now have more than 70 million people using it until almost one in our on every topic you can imagine.

john: how are you the biggest? is all of these others things like craigslist and angie's list and what did you do that about 70 million? >> the heart of what we do comes from people's personal stories. some people talk about the things that matter to them and what they are struggling with in their lives and then they use the platforms to mobilize able around them and share those petitions and create dialogs of the people who have the power to change them. and we do see it working everyday. john: and she posted some of their victories. here are three of them. >> a pennsylvania girl battling a deadly disease in serious need of a lung transplant. >> they kicked her off the team for being a girl.

>> that's right, she's an 11-year-old girl from pennsylvania and she was playing football for whole life and then they decided girls could no longer play and she started a petition and she had hundreds of thousands of people signout. and little do you know, they decided to let her play football and not just her, but every girl who wants to . john: it just caught on through change.org. >> that's right, she shares it with family first, and they share it and people are mobilized and these grow. john: the girl needed a lung transplant, and the law at the time said children cannot receive transplants from adults? >> that's right, children under 12 could only receive transplants from other children even though their bodies are large enough to take an adult lung. >> arbitrary cutoff. sarah's mom started a petition on change when she had two weeks to live and able to

mobilize people effectively and get a stay from a judge to agree to give sarah and one other boy a lung transplant, they both lived, now the law is changed and children under 12 can be eligible for adult lungs. [ applause ] >> and the boy scouts now will accept gays, but i don't think it was just because of you guys. >> we saw 124 different petitions, over 13 months, signed by 1.8 million people. it wasn't just one petition on our website. it was many, many campaigns over time, and millions of people fighting this battle, and us partnering with other organizations to make that happen. john: our fox station in kansas city covered one of your successes. boy built a little library and put it in his yard. >> get into reading and get to know your neighbors. >> the family came home from a trip to find this letter, explaining the library violates an ordinance which doesn't allow structures in the front

yard of single family homes. john: which i think was put there to keep people from putting cars in front yards. >> presumably. another citizen who heard of this started a petition on his behalf and it took just 33 signatures for the petition to convince the city to change the ordinance and let him keep the lending library on his front lawn. john: and you've gotten people out of jail. one pleased grant ryan ferguson trial or freedom, 266 signatures? >> he had been in prison for ten years for a crime he clearly didn't commit. they recanted testimony, testimony was not accurate and no other evidence against him, and so after -- >> the lawyers were on move, they put him on jail. they weren't going to touch it? >> the trial went through and yeah his father started a petition asking him to grant him a new trial or let him free and they decided that first,

that they would basically not, they would not retry him and let him free. and we had another one just yesterday, we helped a man from missouri who had been in jail for 17 years for a crime he didn't commit. the prosecutors had been falsifying the evidence against him, and when that was discovered. john: lawyers do that! >> he was released. >> thank you, jennifer, good to know we can do these things without a lawyer. and coming up, our studio audience gets to award a thousand bucks to the person who submits the stupidest lawyer-driven warning labels. and here's one entry. this decal meant to be stuck on a bicycle helmet says warning, decal for decoration only, will not prevent injury. [ laughter ] more coming up. up.

. john: if you have the nerve to try to manufacture something in america, then probably you'll try to protect yourself from lawsuits by adding detailed warnings about what might happen if consumers use your product in some crazy way? how stupid do the labels get? pretty stupid. and bob dorigo jones gives a thousand dollars to the person who submits the stupidest warning label. so who wins this year? after reviewing lots of entries, bob narrowed it down to five and agreed to let you, our studio audience pick the worst. whoever submitted the label that you pick get the thousand bucks. bob, who is the finalist? >> if you cut your teeth on a

basketball net dunking the ball and walk away with $50,000. they are looking for the new lawsuit. on a football helmet, it says, warning, no helmet system can protect you from serious brain or neck injuries, and to avoid these risks do not engage in the sport of football. [ laughter ] they're warning you not to use their product! >> number two. these decals which are just decals and they say, be careful, this decal will not prevent injuries, this is for bike helmets. who needs this? >> pretty obvious. and by the way. john: we called the companies, and the football helmet, the company didn't respond. on the bicycle helmet decals, they had no comment. what's the third? >> this is on a little battery booster, cell phone battery booster, this is a growing trend of mistranslated warnings. it says warning, get rid of

children. [ laughter ] >> that's a poor manufacturer struggles with it. >> number four here, a decal is stuck on this printer toner. this is awful black stuff and it's deep inside the printer. it says do not drink. who would do that? [ laughter ]. john: and one of my favorites. last year you had a child's ride-on toy, for a two or three-year-old. it says do not push vehicle while child is sitting in it! well -- [ laughter ]. john: this is disney, my old employer, they didn't have any comment either. so which of these is the worst? in a moment, we'll get on vote, which is the worst, the football helmet that says don't play football, the decal that says will not prevent injury. the battery charger that wants to get rid of children.

toner that says do not drink, or the push toy that says don't push the vehicle while a child is in this. when we return, you vote and give out the prize money! . [ applause ] turn out the prize money.

♪ [applause] . john: now we're back with some of our guests to take your questions and comments about lawsuit abuse. but first, we'll pick the winner of the worst warning label. but let's talk a little bit about why does this happen? this doesn't happen in other countries? >> right, and our intent is not to make fun of manufacturers who put the funny labels on the products. it's a realization they need to do that because they fear they'll be sued. or the basketball net lawsuit, or the guy who drilled his teeth with a wood router and sued the maker of the wood router. john: why only in america? >> because we don't have a lose or pay system. that's a big part of it. people feel they can sue without downside. john: if you lose, you have to pay the other guy's legal bills. >> every other country that is industrialized has a lose or pay system. if you lose in a frivolous

matter, you are going to pay legal bills, that's a strong disincentive to sue. for example, on, a box of pms midol, there is a warning that says do not use if you have an enlarged prostate. there might be a guy that has such a bad headache, he's willing to use his wife's pms midol. john: some of the medical labels. are you ready to vote on the worst here? [ applause ] . john: you only get to pick one, raise your hand at the one you think is the stupidest? football helmet that says no helmet can protect you, you from serious brain or neck injuries including paralysis or death, to avoid these risks, do not engage in the sport of football. who votes for that? bunch of you. okay. number two, the decal that says this decal is for decoration only, will not prevent injury?

fewer of you. number three, you've got it, the battery charger, get rid of children. whoa. that's in first place so far. you're voting twice, some of you. number four, i've got it, the ink toner that says do not drink. okay. nobody votes for that. and number five, the push toy, here it is. don't push the vehicle while a child is riding in it. who votes for that. wow. i thought that was going to win. so the winner is -- >> get rid of children. >> cell phone battery booster. and he's going to give a thousand dollars to larry clan from costa mesa, california. [ applause ] >> second prize football helmet, mark lindell of novi,

minnesota. >> that's 500 bucks. >> now your questions for some of our other guests. who's first? >> yes, sir. >> we know in this country lots of horrendous laws, what can we as ordinary citizens do to try to fix it ourselves? >> we have become a society that looks to solve everything by passing a criminal law, and at first blush it's really the politicians, because any time something bad happens, it's easy to say let's make another criminal law or make the penalty stiffer, but really, it's us as individuals. we have to say enough. we have to say to our politicians, don't give us more criminal laws unless can you show what the impact is going to be, show us what benefit we get. show us what the costs are of enforcing it. it's up to the people now to say enough. john: yes? >> i was wondering how many

laws there are in america, like overall? >> too many. john: nobody knows, they can't even count the criminal law, right? >> that's right, that's right. john: yes, sir. >> hello. i'm nik richie from connecticut. my question is for scott in the middle. why are laws so unclear? you have one lawyer tell you one thing and another lawyer tell you something completely different. >> laws should be as clear and simple as they possibly can be. john: you try to make them clearer, right? >> if we stuck to simple rules and abided by the constitution as well, which is very long, even though it is such a great document. we would have a much freer society. john: yes, sir? >> this is for norman. earlier we talked about hillary clinton getting a child rapist acquitted. couldn't she have or any defense lawyer, look at the evidence, say this guy is guilty. i'm not going to defend him,

but instead, they choose to get this person off on a technicality and a rapist goes free. >> well, i don't know what the facts of that case were, but what i know is this, every person, when they were confronted with the full force of the government, they are entitled to have somebody stand up for them and make sure that if the evident is there, and that it's legal, that that's what is required in order to convict somebody. john: is there anybody here who hasn't done something wrong in their life? can anybody raise their hand and say i've never done anything. of course not. >> anybody raise their hand. >> no one can, okay. we have one saint and the rest of the others. this is about human dignity. the idea of having representation for a purpose is about the dignity of the individual. john: thank you, norman, scott, bob, coming up, my day in court. why it made me hate lawyers and their tricks. but it ends with good news!

the bad guy's in jail. in new york state, we're changing the way we do business, with startup ny. we've created tax free zones throughout the state. and startup ny companies will be investing hundreds of millions of dollars in jobs and infrastructure. thanks to startup ny, businesses can operate tax free for 10 years. no property tax. no business tax. and no sales tax. which means more growth for your business, and more jobs. it's not just business as usual. see how new york can help your business grow, at startup.ny.gov

let that phrase sit with you for a second. unlimited. as in, no limits on your hard-earned cash back. as in no more dealing with those rotating categories. the quicksilver card from capital one. unlimited 1.5% cash back on everything you purchase, every day. don't settle for anything less. i'll keep asking. what's in your wallet? . john: i've sued, and been sued. when people just cannot agree, sometimes there's no other option but going to court. that's why we have court, and judges and lawyers and laws. but what the lawyers do with their power is often

outrageous, they are so slow and expensive, and then they're mostly indifferent to the fact that they're slow and expensive. they say that's the way our system works. i close tonight with one example from my life. >> john stossel reports, the biting pain. john: years ago i reported on a philadelphia dentist who i said was enriching himself at patients' and insurance companies's expense, by telling people you need treatment for a problem with your jaw. >> tell me about the clicking in your jaw? >> mainly when i eat i hear click, click. john: my jaw clicks sometimes but it wasn't a problem that needed treatment. however, dr. owen said i had a tmj problem and he'd use fancy machines to make certain. sure enough his doppler hears noises in the joint. a sonogram draws a computer graph of my click. the emg test supposedly showed my muscles were sore.

>> these machines confirm -- >> that i have tmj. >> three dentists examined me and didn't find tmj. you found it. do you always find tmj? why do you city? >> we use objective documentation, if they don't identify it, that means they didn't identify it. john: he recommended despite plate and other treatments that would take four to six months and cost around $3,000. i went on tv and said he ran a dental mill that ripped people off. so he sued me for libel. he claimed he didn't tell me to get treatment, therefore i damaged his reputation and a jury would punish me now. except now is not the right word. nothing ever happens now in our legal system. every day in the free market in real life we invent ways to do things faster, better, cheaper. we have to because there's

competition. but in the legal system, lawyers act like a monopoly, they almost never innovate. nothing goes quickly. it almost makes me feel sorry for people who sue me. before trial, my lawyers demanded that the dentist produce paperwork detailing all persons with whom you've had oral or written communication and people you have participated in seminars and lawyers and headache sufferers as well as the date, location, attendance and amount charged attendee and so on, the paperwork delays were endless. he had to wait nearly four years just to get me into court. >> march 24, 1989, was a night of infamy, when o wen roggel was attacked by "20/20" like no other individual got attacked. john: his lawyer got to call me

a liar who sensationalize and pursued tv ratings. he said i never recommended stossel get treatment. he lied about that. john: fortunately my exam was on videotape. the jury could watch and decide but that never happened. instead we had lawyer war, his lawyers played a few minutes that made it seem as if he hadn't recommended treatment. my lawyers showed he did. three minute snippets back and forth day after day for two weeks! it was ridiculous! why didn't the judge say shut up you lawyers, you're wasting the public's money, and the poor jurors's time, just play the tape! because the judge is in on the lawyer scam! judges are lawyers in sxroebs comfortable with the system's slow pace. trials resemble religious rituals. we don't get speedy justice but lots of pompous ceremony.

>> all rise. john: you must stand when the judge appears. we call them honorable, whether the judge is or is not. >> the honorable david. >> the honorable raymond. >> the honorable judge lock is presideing. >> this pomp is necessary to show respect for the law. that's absurd, a court can take away all my money, and in the criminal case take away my freedom, that ought to get him enough respect. pompous ritual suggests magic in law, work only lawyers can do. and since they're paid by the hour, the slow tradition let's them run up the bills. in my trial when the jury got to meet and decide my fate, they decided i did not libel roggel by falsely playing him as a charletain, they said he ripped off insurance companies and lied on the witness stand. so the court said he had to pay $250,000 to cover my side's legal bills.

yippie! i won! except i didn't in our system, you lose even when you win, because the lawyers charge so much. the money abc got from roggel hardly covered legal costs, they were more than a million dollars. dr. roggel went onto get richer. here's a story about his fancy apartment. he got this rich with the help of more lawyers. he's his view. accident lawyers sent him patients and he charged insurance companies big bucks to use dubious machines he claimed would relieve their pain. finally 20 years after we revealed his insurance scam, philadelphia prosecutors nailed him and his daughter for a similar fraud. and roggal is now in jail. good! but it took much too long. everything lawyers do takes too long. we need law, and lawyers to keep the peace, but you should avoid using them. that's our show. see you next week.

[applause] guy who ties it all together, the markets in everything. lou dobbs. lou: good evening, everyone. i am ashley webster in for lou dobbs. president obama today speaking out about the riots. calling for calm as each night has seen an escalation of violence between police officers and protesters in missouri. molotov cocktail situations and police squaring off in the street with writers. please concealing the idea of the shooter