great products and a superb management. >> guy, thank you all. continuing, david, here on the place for business news. fox and as i told you just last week, we're going to doing this every week. here's david. transparency, a huge political add vac and basically called the stupidity of the american voter or whatever, basically, that was really, really critical to get to the past. >> no matter how many times, rileals me up. obamacare admitting the law was you, and most americans. calming them stupid, not once, not twice, at least three or four, even five times. take a look. >> pretty much the same thing. why does it matter? you'll see. too stupid to understand the difference. >> a clever, basic exploitation of the lack of economic understanding of the american voter. >> so as republicans look to

undo obamacare, will this prove to be the final nail in the law's coffin? hi, everybody. david asman. welcome to "forbes on fox." go in focus to find out with elizabeth macdonald, rich, sabrina schaffer in new york along with michael ozanian and rick unger. sabrina a game changer in changing the law. >> absolutely. one of the big challenges building a coalition against obamacare, hard to move. >> man:. everybody heard the arguments about rising costs, lower care and harder to keep your doctor. heard them so many times it doesn't work anymore. injaect new message into the conversation, talk about how especially this stupid, how stupid the american people are, were fools, this is apt to have a big change in voter preferences. >> rick, the message is deception. deception was used to sell the bill. by the way, even before wep got the gruber tapes, we have this poll showing that most americans do think there was

misrepresentation, in selling obamacare? >> yeah. the message that gruber is saying is indeed deception. i'm not going to sit here and tell you that i agree with his message, but i'm not going to argue and defend him in any way, shape or form, and be honest. i could take apart everything he said and show where i don't think it's true. it doesn't matter. for those who are against this law, and we know there are many, this will only serve to reinforce their belief and i'm not going to be able to change that right. by the way, emac, not just anybody. this was one of the main architect, the "washington post" referred to him as the coin of the realm in coming up with an economic model on obamacare. now, we knew the numbers didn't add up. we've been saying it for a couple of years now. but clearly, they knew that the numbers didn't add up, too. >> yeah. goes beyond just calling them in for hearings, or undoing obamacare. indicted for criminal brainlessness, this guy. more videos show him saying

knit-whitted nonsense than "airplane" movies now. the american people, the issue, and congress, misled into supporting this law saying the administration said it would basically lower your insurance premiums. get to keep your doctor. low are the deficit, create jobs. none of that happened. there should be hearings into this. by the way, we have 2 million fewer full-time workers nan 2007 and more tarttime jobs pup need the jobs to pay for this thing. there needs to be hearing into what gruber said and pullback on obamacare. >> again, because it is such a deception, the tactic used was really based in deception, mike ozanian and it continues, by the way. pelosi. congresswoman pelosi claims even though she was working with them, she never heard of this guy. >> i don't know who she. he didn't write our bill. >> but back in 2009, she had a different story about him. >> our bill brings down rates. i don't know if you had seen

jonathan gruber's and mike hughes' analysis. >> the deception on the part of the people that sold this thing continues even today, mike. >> david, i'm not going to argue with the deception point you're making. it's absolutely correct, but i do disagree with sabrina. i don't think this is a game-changer in public opinion. what obamacare is about is the redistribution of wealth, and those american voters who believe in the redistribution of wealth are still going to support obamacare. >> rich, i must disagree with my friend mike, because this really is the face of what's wrong with america. this is the face. gruber has become the face of what the election last week was all about. i mean, look at -- by the way, we've looked in the guy's finances. not just the $400,000 that he was paid for his obamacare consulting. $2 million worth of contracts with hhs that go back seven years plus a lot of contracts with individual states.

so from federal level to the state level, this guy's a money machine. the kind of person that washington relies on. >> yeah. even more than the use of the word stupidity, i loved his use ftd word "whatever." whatever sums up the whole administration. through the middle class, whatever. screw the working class, whatever. damage the health care system, damage the internet, whatever. you know? it perfectly sums it up. will it have any impact? it boils down i think to what the supreme court is going to do when it takes it up in march. the swing voters will be chief justice roberts and justice kennedy, and will this make a difference? we'll see. >> emac what do you think? >> rich brings up a good point. apparently gruber weighed in on that, too and said tax credits really oernt meant for the state health exchanges, not the federal exchanges. that's now going to the supreme court. i want to know what regulations what increased taxes, what about a more intrusive irs that americans were too stupid to know about ahead of time and we

have now even gruber talking about how in massachusetts they purposely set up their version of health care reform by taking $400 million from taxpayers. that is theft from the american people. there needs to be hearing into that. >> and what it poboils down to, rick in another tape he's in, wealth redistribution. what obamacare was about. >> i've got to say, the two people i'm include to disagree the most both 345mead really go points. this isn't going to change the future of obamacare. you still have president bv b in the white hou obama in the white house. nothing's going away while he's there. and liz made a point. about the case coming before the supreme court. we don't know how much the court will take notice of what he said. they're not really supposed to, but they're human being. it could be an impact and would be a huge impact if they do pay attention to this. >> sabrina, told time and again

this was going to save americans money. clearly they didn't believe it was going to save americans money when saying it? >> of course, no. that's a lie. i think, look, both mike and rick raise an important point, there's been a lot of ups and downs with obamacare, right? failed implementation but a win in the courts. all sorts of things that have gone up and down. i understand it may not be the game changer. usually republicans are the ones caught in policy wonkalingage. talking the individual. talking the individual american person out there. that's going to resonate in a way that costs and gdp and prices that's not going -- >> getting away from the weeds of the minutia of what the law is. it's clear now. it's deception. the law is deceptive. the people selling it deceiving the american people and sde deceiving them now with nancy pelosi's statements. >> despicable. nancy pelosi's recent statements.

but all of this is occurring in a context of economic growth. it is not widely distributed. and every voter who was polled in the 2014 elections that occurred a couple weeks ago, the economy was the number one issue, and so, you know, you've got the deception, but even worse you've got the deception and then when people are -- >> hacked off because of economy. >> an administration that prize itself on equality. on equalling things particularly economically and it's actually, the actual effects of these policies go in the opposite direction. >> i'll have to go back and paraphrase winston churchill who says socialism is nothing more than equal sharing of misery. what obamacare s. we'll leave on that. really a notion. speaking of obamacare, is the president's executive order for illegals going to explode that cost even more? "cashin' in" on cove erg the numbers in a minute. first, is the president

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point, click, sick. critics blasting the white house this week as the president pushes the fcc to regulate the internet. they're calling it the next big government power grab, the former chairman of the fcc telling me he agrees. >> the statute the president is calling for being used as our national internet policy is so ambiguously written, you could easily encompass a whole host of applications, services and innovation we never imagined were regulated by the fcc. >> and rich karlgaard, a lot of people worried about a government takeover of the internet. could this get us there? >> it could get us there and it has all sorts of implications around censorship and so on but

the economic considerations are this -- at&t's ceo randall stephenson is ready to spend tens of billions of dollars rolling out next generation fiber in 100 stcitie in the united states. he's hesitating whether he'll get his money back-charging premium services to companies like netflix and because this law, if it passes, is that, you know, at&t wouldn't be able to do that. so he won't invest. >> it's already had an $18 billion impact on our economy, bill? >> well, the brand theory seems to be that obama bet on world domination is going to seize every inch of the internet and censor it. i'm not that afraid of that particular outcome. we'll see something much more moderated, price regulations and those rare instances where the cable provider, as in my neighborhood harks a monopoly. not so bad. >> point is obviously not happening overnight a government takeover, mike ozanian, but incremental. when has the fcc ever made an

organization more efficient? we really want the fcc to start regulating the internet? >> no, david. it's a bad law. all we have to do go back to 1966 and see why. the fcc came in with a law that basically distinguished between traditional telephone companies, regulated had a cell band below price, below market price and then the new information services companies, capital and money poured into the unregulated information service companies. broadband grew. what we have today is in largely due that. without that investment we wouldn't have the internet we have today, and it wasn't until the early 2000s where it freed up the telephone companies and they became unencumbered with regulations that capital flowed in. >> a point. when have they ever made an organization for efficient or appropriate cheaper? the fcc? >> a fair point to make. this is an incredibly nuanced issue. i find it to be. conservatives, of course, abhor

government involvement. i get it, totally do, but there's something that president reagan showed us that concerted abhor even more. that a natural monopoly. why reagan broke up the telephone companies and all should wonder if we had 9 great innovation if he hadn't in that field. >> sabrina, the worst monopoly of all is a government monopoly, because they make illegal any kind of competition. that's awful for the consumer. >> absolutely. look, the technology and the internet we've all grown to rely on, especially helpful to working moms like myself, means that it comes as result of the absence of government regulat n regulation, as my said. not because of it. it's a power grab in the wake of the nra scandal, and irs scandal, we should be especially concerned about this. >> another factor mike powell, former fcc chairman said, he's worried about regulation of content. we don't want government --

they're not going to say they're doing it. the fcc wouldn't get into that right now, but eventually that's how we go down the slippery slope of censorship. right? >> well, this administration has not exactly been a friend of the first amendment and everybody knows that, but i want to address the point as about monopolies. they don't last in technology. the government thought ibm was a ma knop lip in the 1980s. those microsoft was in the 1990s. it was actually market forces that brought down the influence of these companies. interesting company to watch is google. used to be for this law that obama wants and now that google is in, increasingly getting in the business of supplying fiber, they've pulled back. >> a lot of change of views on this and, bill we now have the majority of the public according to a new poll just out, 61% of the people polled don't want the government, the fcc, to get involved in the internet? >> i don't want the government to be designing my internet but would love to have a little more

competition, not less, and just terrific if verizon were to compete with cablevision in my neighborhood. >> hold on. sabrina when has the government a government regulatory body ever increased competition? >> right. just finished talking about obamacare what a nightmare that's become and look at the schools. the fact is the market is responding. there are packages where you don't have to have everything bundled together. companies are responding to market demand and we have to make sure the government doesn't stop that. >> mike? >> she's absolutely right and really what it comes down to is you can allow market forces to prevail, and with the fcc what they'll do if it listens to the president, it will curb those market forces, force unbundles, force pricing things below market and that will cause capital investment to dry ll ri. i think, by the way, the younger generation is very much opposed to this, from my cold, dead hands they'll have to take my computer away from me. and the president's pick for

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imagine getting sued for discrimination, even if you had no intention of discriminating? an awful position businesses find themselves in thanks to a rule pushed by the justice department. worries the president just nominated for the next u.s.

attorney general will keep it going. you're one of those people? >> i am worried. a phantom law. we all want to end racism, this isn't require evidence of racist lending policy. no evidence loretta lynch will push back against this policy. >> essentially accused of something with no proof necessary in order to prove that case. seems un-american? >> this is it. count the results and then make you guilty if they didn't like the results. >> if your workforce has this x number of employees not of a particular race, you're guilty, even if you didn't discriminate? >> everybody would be guilty. every business that sells expensive cars would be guilty of one racial group has a different average income than another racial group. we're going to -- yankees guilty of age discrimination. nobody of my age in the lineup, right? >> and a number of companies that settled for hundreds of millions of dollars because they don't want to be called

discriminators. settled out of court based on this principle? >> yes. specifically this is about house loans and that certain groups are not, finding it harder to get loans and, therefore, the banks must be discriminating, and number one, this is very discouraging to banks and can ruin honest banking careers. number two, if implemented a great way to create the next housing bubble. >> emac, another factor to all this. by the way, sitting in the front row during the president's announcement ms. lynch would be chosen for this, or judge lynch, was mr. reverend al sharpton. so he's the king of the shakedowns of businesses. accuses somebody of racism and then settles and gets paid money so that if he pulls his protesters out -- is that what we're looking forward to? >> also shaken down taxpayers building his salary structure on nonprofit. this is -- glad we're having this discussion. torp cher the data as long and

you want and as long, to whatever you want, that's at issue here. loretta lynch has a history of independent thought. curious to see if she follows court cases here? >> liz has her finger on it. the least political appointee in a while and is more likely to follow the court cases. got to tell you something, i don't think lorp retta lynch will be our next attorney general? >> why not? >> they made a critical mistake. simple. put the hearings over into the next congress. republican majority in the senate. nair going to ask her just one question. >> what's that? >> if the president does his executive order on immigration next week, the only question she's going to get asked is, was it constitutional or -- good point. possible because of what rick said she will not be confirmed? >> anything's possible. it is true. people say they less political. we need someone with courage to stand up against this. i'm actually worried she won't have the courage. these lenders get screwed. either your racist if you don't lend to someone with a -- if you

do with a race profile. if you don't, you're greedy a greedy son of a gun. >> were you worried seeing al sharpton sitting in the front row of the president's announcement of this? >> the game can get way out of control and he knows how to play that game, unfortunately. >> hope everything works out for best. coming up, more stores opening their doors even earlier this thanksgiving. before you shop til you drop, get our stocks, which are on sale.

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watch out. >> if you invest, be afl. that's it for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching. keep it right here. the number one block continues ng and "cashin' in." giving illegal as free pass into the country, raising the minimum wage, look what the president and the democrats are trying to do since republicans cleaned their clock in the mid-terms. the lame duck tries to become the mighty duck. are we all about to pay the price? listen up, how the immigration plan the president is about to ram through may blow the lid off welfare as we know. and then -- >> that may not be relative, no alternative, but to cancel christmas. >> 'tis the season to dis christmas. last year, this goon and this