when my grandparents came. is a gnat are a's mother taught english to the community. (?) neil: it's possible. robert paved the way. it's up to the rest of the world to he makes sense in a couple of minutes than all these experts. stossel is next. stossel: our president has just spoken. he said, if you're here illegally, i'll make you a deal. here's his deal. obama: if you've been in america for more than five years, if you've registered, pass a criminal background check, pay your fair of taxes, you'll be able to apply to stay in this country temporarily. we won't deport you. stossel: some of his speech i like. 11 million illegals live in the shadows. the president said come out of the shadows. get right with the law.

good. but some parts of his plan give me the creeps. the speech is pandering to immigrant groups. i've seen your heartbreak. from now on, we'll deport -- obama: felons. not children. gang members. not a mom who is working hard to provide for her kids. stossel: sounds great. here to help us make sense of the speech. matt welch and kmele foster. and cato institute immigration specialist alex. >> the president as much as i like a lot more immigration than we have, it's not his job to make deals. it's actually congress' job to make deals. it's his job to enforce the law or make priorities about enforcing the law. immigration is the federal government's job. he has to make these

priorities. he can set these priorities to make this big splashy executive order that is designed to tell republicans, you need to pass a different law. as much as i like the soaring rhetoric, i don't like that the president is making an executive order against congressional intent, which is what this is. stossel: most of us don't. downloadthere is precedent sort of. clinton, bush, reagan all did them -- >> both reagan and bush were harmonious with congressional intent. they weren't done an impetulant act to try to get congress to change their behavior. even though i agree with him than congress about the overall question, i'm uncomfortable the president using the magic wand to do what he wants. >> what's happening here is enforcement

discretion which is something that happens when you have a massive regulatory state. we've seen this before. there are times when libertarians universally endorse this thing. when he's deciding this state is legalizing marijuana or federal prohibitions against marijuana. granted it's not completely analogous. it's true. over the last few years, decades even, we've seen presidents resort to this thing more and more often. there's constitutional questions. stossel: he's supposed to enforce the law. >> he'll have to make some decisions. look, the president has acknowledged the administration has acknowledged that they could maybe deport some 400,000 people a year, if i'm not mistaken. there are 11 million people that are here. they can't deport everyone simultaneously.

setting some priorities and having some specific goals there and focusing on folks who are actually committing real problems in this country, not coming here to work and feed their families seems appropriate to me. >> this is the exact same thing he's said every year. he will be prioritizing under his administration. your chance of being deported as an illegal immigrant is twice that under the bush administration. he's been a hard-core enenforce of these. (?) stossel: still pretty low. right? >> that's true. the level that are deported from the interior of the united states, people who have been here for years, your chances of being deported is double what it was under bush's administration. he tries to pass himself off as a pro immigration president. we had democrats in charge of congress. he didn't do anything.

stossel: he could have worked with his party if he wanted it. >> he talks about this heartbreak he's seen in these families. it's a result of his practices he put in place. he is reacting to obama from 2009, 2010, and 2011. so i here simply two different presidents trying to argue with each other over the same issue, but it's really the same guy. >> what was not there was talking about the thing that causes illegal immigration. it's not necessarily just illegal immigrants. it's a system that doesn't allow for enough legal immigrants. people always talking about getting in line. it means stay out for the most part, the way our legal immigration is set up. we treat -- he did it tonight -- we treat illegal immigration like a legality problem. it's not. when you have more than 10 million people living outside the law, then we need to see if the law makes sense.

stossel: the way alcohol prohibition made liquor sellers into dealers. >> bad laws eviscerate themselves. if we're concerned about the rule of law, creating statuses that are difficult to obey or out of step with the practice of the citizenry. you'll undermine the rule of lie by having these statutes on the books. he didn't take action when he could. (?) republicans are just as guilty. this has been a problem for a very long time. no one has taken serious steps to do this. we can look at the last bush who talked about instituting a new program that would have been broad and sweeping and transformative in some respects. >> we didn't get that. >> at that point it was senator obama in 2007 who voted against that guesswork visa bill that killed the immigration comprise then. he's never been in in favor of of a guest visa bill. >> he wants families. he wants people who will not work and compete

with unions. he wants people who aren't workers. he wants an elector. he wants people who will vote for him. i can't blame him. he's a politician. i'm not going to be mad at him, but that's his driving force (?) >> he said in the middle of the speech. we should have this debate without impugning anyone's motives. this is why republicans have screwed up every stickup of the way. he tortured the language in the speech. the amnesty we have is amnesty. come on. this is conditional amnesty. it's basically taking people out of the deportation life. stossel: critics of this action call it amnesty, well, it's not. it is kind of. >> it's basically saying we will not enforce this law on this group of people. those people won't be citizens, but it really is for those people. >> it's temporary. >> that's the distinction. this executive action will only have a

temporary position. it's uncertain. only congress can make it permanent. >> again, i believe on january 1st of 2015 is when this program begins. deportation priorities will be set now. the legalization program will begin in a few months. stossel: this week a reporter interviewing tom coburn asked him this. >> what will the republican reaction be here? >> well, i don't think it's so much the republican reaction here. the country will go nuts. you can see instances of anarchy. >> what do you mean. >> you can see violence. stossel: really? >> you got kmele excited about the anarchy. violence turned him off. >> this is cynical. the reason why this is an executive order and not just a set of priorities and enforcement that he wanted to create this political moment we have. part of that is to make republicans go off on a tizzy. republicans, god bless

them, they will take the opportunity to say there is violence and anarchy. impeachment which you've heard in the last few days. they go crazy about this. that's what the president wants, which is not a high statesman like approach, i don't think. stossel: he also said we need to secure our borders. but that just seems like such political nonsense because we've doubled the border patrol. half the illegals come in, not through the borders, not walking across, they fly here as a tourist or a student, and then overstay their visa. >> he's been a big proponent of. >> he and republicans. he's devoted enormous amount of resources to beef up security during his administration. more people down there. more technology. moved enforcement from the interior for the last couple of years to the border to try to stop the inflow. because of the lousy economy, we see people

that are coming in that are at the lowest ever si the 1970s. the flows of unauthorized immigrants are low historically. stossel: not because of him. >> because a lousy economy. you blame what you want for that. it's also partly because of the enforcement. we can't say that has nothing to do with it. it's mainly the economy. stossel: let's touch back on the good points. bring illegals into the sunshine. they'll start reporting crimes. maybe stop hiding from the police. not live in an underworld. none of that is good for america. [no audio] >> the notion that you don't have any legal standing. you don't have any recourse if your employer violates a contract with you. this is what the president described as actual amnesty. that's the tortured language in the speech that one can't take particularly seriously.

>> what he wants to do is temporary, you won't see the full fortified million of these folks come forward who could do it. when he did that administrative amnesty in 2012, only 40 percent of those who were eligible came forward because they didn't want to give the government all their identity information because it's temporary. we'll see the same thing this time. >> every federal fix even if it's an executive action bureaucracytieses is t more. let's thumbprint this. (?) stossel: they have to. they have to have rules. >> the problem with immigration at large. we have all kinds of rules for every single subcategory of immigration. it's a real pain in the posterior if you are a company trying to get someone to wash your dishes or anything. you have to go through all this process if it's going to be legal because everyone gets excited about illegal immigration. what you'll fine, people like the black market or the gray market, there's

not so many rules out there. >> the immigration laws are almost as complicated as income tax. we should liberalize deregulating and allowing more lawful immigration in the future. >> the constitutional questions, you absolutely have to take a look at the statutes as they stand today, and they are have i seen enteen. there is no pathway to citizenship. if you don't i have a family member that lives in this country, if you're not a high skilled worker, there's nothing for you to do. stossel: we will continue this discussion in a moment. you at home, follow me at twitter. at fbn stossel. use the hashtag. post on my wall. my facebook page. rick writes how is legalizing lawbreakers fair to those waiting to come here legally? good question. i'll try to answer that

at the end of the show. but, rick, good point. next, we'll hear from a man who agrees with rick. he says, what? let illegals stay. how can you reward lawbreaking. instead, he says, deport them. we'll debate.

stossel: lots of americans are angry about the executive order. president obama announced tonight. mark is one of them. he's president of the center for immigration studies. it sounds like it studies things. it's one of the leading groups that opposes immigration. your website calls this petulant and unconstitutional. why? >> the president doesn't have the right to make law. because that's what we're talking about here. he's using pretexts in the law, but he is, in fact, making policy contrary to congress' wishes. congress specifically refused to pass the legislation that he demanded, and now he has said explicitly that because congress didn't do what he wanted, he has the prerogative to do it on his own.

that's -- it's outrageous. stossel: i agree with you totally on that. on your website, your group says the united states needs fewer immigrants, not more. why? >> a modern society like ours has outgrown immigration. we're not in -- this isn't 9014 anymore. we'r1914. extensive welfare state. technology shrinks the world that moving from one place to another isn't as important as it used to be. stossel: what about these companies saying we can't get good workers. what about creating illegallalty by not letting people in. >> the first point, the only people you hear from who are saying that there's a shortage of workers are employers. and there's no evidence of that. wages have been stagnant for everyone in this

country, except for the most highly educated. and the least educated have seen a decline in wages over the past 30 years. they're the very ones that are most likely to compete with immigrant labor. so this is baloney that there's job americans won't do and there's a labor shortage. it's ho can you telit's hocum is are criminal. >> the one issue -- it's ambiguous. some data shows immigrants are more likely to be engaged in crime. other data shows they're less likely. the one thing we know for sure is that the children of immigrants are hugely more likely to be involved in crime than the native born. so the crime issue isn't actually as cut and dry as people think, other than obviously all the immigration-related crimes. id theft, tax fraud, and

the rest of it. stossel: but some of that is because of the law. here's something the president said tonight that made sense to me. obama: are we a nation that tolerates the hypocrisy of where workers that pick our fruit and make our beds never have a chance to get right with the law. stossel: do they never have a chance to get right with the law without going back home? >> this is like the person who kills his parents and then in court he begs for mercy because he's an orphan. the reason we have 11 million people here illegally is because of obama and the other people who agree with him on immigration who have spent the past 20 years eviscerating our ability to actually control immigration. all these metrics people point to about how the border is better than it used to be is something something to that. but we have fewer border patrol agents than there

are police officers in the new york police department alone. the nypd is half again bigger than the entire border control. we have very little -- stossel: they would argue the nypd is too big. the border control has doubled. >> that's my point. it's doubled, but still dramatically smaller than a big city police department. that's essentially the idea behind the concept of creating illegallalty. some of your guests in the previous segment said we have to increase legal admissions. in a sense that's true. to reduce it. in a sense that's true. because if you let in everyone who wants to come here, then there's by definition no illegal immigration, but there are hundreds of millions of people abroad who want to come here. there are going to be limits. there have to be limits. if there are limits, the limits have to be

enforced. stossel: there used to be no limits for the first half of america. if you got here, you could stay. clearly, we need limits now. we have welfare state. people trying to kill us. but it's almost -- >> even 100 years ago, we had limits. what those limits were called were oceans. what's changed is that communications and transportation technology has made it such that the distance that we used to have that made it hard and expensive to get here no longer exists. number two, as president jack kennedy wrote, a nation of immigrants, we are no longer settling in empty land. we've outgrown mass immigration. it's kind of like when you're a kid. you can eat the doughnuts you want. when you're 53 like i am, you have to be particular about how many doughnuts you eat. we are a mature nation. we don't need any immigration at all. we will allow some for reasons -- for particular reasons, but we need to minimize it.

stossel: i disagree. we'll agree to disagree. thank you, mark. next, i like the idea behind the president's executive order, reduce illegallalty bring people out of hiding. the greater the number of laws, the more thieves and robbers there will be. but where does president obama get off just doing this by executive order? i have the authority, he said. i will make it easier. i will make it faster. but we do have this thing called the constitution. doesn't he have to work with congress? we'll debate that next. [ male announcer ] some come here to build something smarter. ♪ some come here to build something stronger.

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>> use your executive order to stall deportation for all immigrants. please. we need to pass -- >> no. no. >> at the same time. you have a power to stop deportations for all.

obama: and that's why we're here. stossel: that was this month last year when obama was heckled by activists. he said, i don't have the power. he said, i can't violate our laws. i have to follow the democratic process.inistration took some steps last year. >> in a video chat, this woman asked him, until immigration reform is passed, what's he going to do to prevent families from being broken apart. obama: the problem is, you know, i'm the president of the united states. i'm not the emperor of the united states. my job is to execute laws that are passed. stossel: well, that was then. now, apparently, the rules are different. he's emperor. congress passed no new immigration law. tonight, however, the president said the actions i'm taking are not only lawful, they're the kinds of actions taken by every single republican president and every democratic president for the past

half century. and he's sort of right. other presidents have used executive orders. sha peer ais a constitutional scholar at the cato institute. what about that? (?) >> it's not the use of executive orders or discretion, per se. the immigration laws are giving the executive branch really wide discretion in lots of ways. at a certain point, if the exception of the deception swoalz the swallows te rule, either he's acting beyond that law or the law is unconstitutional i was the because congress can't delegate its legislative powers to the president. stossel: is this against the law? what's happening here? >> i think so. i think that legalizing or doing what the president has done for 5 million people, that's too broad a class. however you articulate the line, and i'm not sure i can articulate a line, i think that's on the far side of it. i say this

unfortunately, because i think i support all of the policies that the president announced. i actually support actual real reform that would go further to liberalizing -- to reforming our immigration system. stossel: and congratulations to you. i hear you became an american citizen after coming here from russia via canada. >> that's right. and, you know, like -- like most immigrants, i do a job that a native americans won't. defending the constitution. stossel: other presidents have used executive order on immigration. president reagan. others to remain in the united states to ensure family unity. bush expand that to encompass spouses and children. humanitarian protection for chinese immigrants. salvadorians. president clinton deferred departure for haitians for a year.

>> president george w. bush after katrina and the gulf states deferred action. are these discreet temporary measures not with a relatively small class of people affected. not this open-ended, sweeping thing that he himself admitted 22 times. there are about 22 times that he said, i can't do this. apparently he's invoked the clause of the constitution that if congress doesn't act in the first term, he gets more power. he's poisoned the we well with this action. he's pushed back any real legislative reform. that's the real tragedy here. stossel: though this abuse of executive orders is not new. theodore roosevelt agreed to a japanese take over of korea. >> thomas jefferson with the louisiana purchase. all presidents of both

parties historically try to push the envelope. try to expand executive power. that's why we have checks and balances. the courts are supposed to strike down what the president does. as the supreme court did with hea harry truman when he tried to steal steel -- richard nixon, very famous for all sorts of things, doing that way. so, you know, just because people have done bad things in the past, doesn't that this particular bad thing is justified. stossel: we'll see how it shakes down. thank you. next, people say immigrants take away american jobs. some probably will. but i'd argue for every job they take, they create many new jobs. better jobs. we'll debate that next. sheila! you see this ball control?

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obama: i'll make it easier and faster for highly-skilled immigrants to stay and contribute to our economy. so many business leaders have proposed this. stossel: that was good news from the president tonight. though, he wasn't at all specific about it, about what he will do or how many people he would let in. it would be great if more skilled immigrants could bring their ideas to america legally. immigrants like the founder of history.com. he invented a better way to teach history, but he can't bring his business here. i reported on that a few months ago. >> in europe some kids have a new way of learning history. >> we're very excited about history. curious. that's what history does for them. it makes them curious.

stossel: sounds good. why don't we have this in our schools? probably because the founder of the company that invented the dylan digital learning program is not allowed to work in america. he's thomas ketchell. he's in belgium. why aren't you allowed to work here. >> the h-1b visas are short and not much room for entrepreneurs like me. so we're really quite limited as to how we can get into the country. and work. stossel: the b1 visa lets you come here, but to work you need the h-1b visa. america accepts applications for that every year, but this year applicants grabbed every available visa within less than a week. so i can see why it's tough for people like you. >> it's absolutely crazy that there are companies and lots of founders

like me coming from europe and all over the world coming to the us actually, get that company up and running and get that product out there and create jobs for americans. but we actually just can't. we're stopped at the border. we have to keep coming back. three-month stints. we're not actually allowed to physically work. it's actually proving very difficult for companies like ours. stossel: why do you need to be physically in america. why can't you hire americans from belgium. build your company here from belgium. >> the founder has to be there. at least one of the founder. it's important to keep those relations up with the investors in the u.s. also selling to schools and districts. we need one of the founders there at least to conduct business in the us. stossel: some other countries are much more welcoming to people like you. in canada, if you have an investment like you want to do, they let you in. and canada even ran a -- put a billboard in san

francisco. you got a problem getting workers, come to canada? >> canada is actually doing pretty well from that. stossel: canada is. it's the reason canada's economy has done pretty well. now, president obama said he'll make it easier and faster for high skilled workers to get in. wouldn't that be a good thing? let's go to matt welch and kmele foster and alex of the cato institute. that's good news right. >> good news, but we'll have to see the exact details on this. this is the bargaining chip forever. republicans like to expand immigration. so democrats have been reluctant to expand it, they think they'll never get a deal on undocumented people. the eu is a big free trade of people zone. you're a polish plumber, you can move to england. all around there.

they've seen incredible gains in prosperity widely shared all throughout the eu -- stossel: europe isn't doing so well. >> they're doing better than they would be. it's economics 101. it's not just from having high-skilled workers. it's them coming here with their skills. being workers -- they work alongside with other americans. from this being consumers and buying goods and services from americans. stossel: i would bet most americans think that even skilled americans take away jobs. republican jeff sessions who called president obama emperor of the united states because of his executive orders says this about allowing more immigrants to work here. >> we need to create jobs for americans first. before we bring in foreign workers to take those jobs. stossel: i think most americans believe that. create jobs for americans.

>> it certainly seems true on its face. but the fact is that plenty of immigrants who come here, certainly high-skilled immigrants, they come here and invest. they create businesses. they have great ideas. they help to improve the pool of labor. even low skilled -- stossel: what do you mean? they took a job, took away from somebody's job? >> they buy things here. they buy homes. they're customers as well as workers. they're super entrepreneurial. i was an illegal immigrant once. in czech i was violating that country's laws. i was poor. i started a newspaper. i created 35 jobs. they weren't well-paying. they were actual jobs. people coming -- they will work in between the cracks. they will start hot dog stands. >> there is a broad agreement on high-skilled labor, that part of this has not

been fixed after all this time. even for low-skilled labor that's a tremendous question for many americans. low-skilled labor is not a substitute it's a complement. we can, in fact, absorb these people. >> senator sessions quoted that there's a fixed pie of job. if somebody gets a job, somebody else must have taken it from them. the more people there are, the more businesses can expand. the more they can build. people can buy things. people are good for the economy. people are the ultimate resource. we are made better off by having more of them who want to contribute who want to work and want to be part of our system. fortunately, this is one of the small shiny parts of what the president has said, the constitutionality aside. coming up, most of us are not aware how much

immigrants have changed our lives. but think about this. without them, we wouldn't have, google. ebay, yahoo, youtube. well, you'd be surprised at what we wouldn't have. that's coming up next

stossel: tonight, the president said he wants to let more highly skilled immigrants come here legally. maybe he finally listened to people in business like my former mayor. i've called him a nanny state te tyrant. this is one point that he and the president get right. >> we are pushing people that other countries want away from our shores and when they invent the next best thing, the job creation, the job creation technologies, the job creation ideas for service, they're going to be doing it in other countries. stossel: we push investor inven. that's too bad. on the on the other hand, we have plenty of american entrepreneurs. probably not.

there's something about being an immigrant that makes people think differently and creatively. we benefit from that creativity. it's how we got ebay. sarah lee. craft foods. so on. all those companies were started by immigrants. we americans benefit because, a, we like their products and, b, those companies create jobs here. agoral has created more than 100 jobs in america. your company is media. >> we partner with physicians -- for people living with a chronic issue like diabetes. stossel: the doctor plays this video, we're subjected to your propaganda. >> it does play in the waiting room. we actually partner with the physicians to ask them what their patients would benefit from. these are mostly stories of people living with a condition and how they overcame the challenges

through it. stossel: here's a sample of what people get to watch. >> a cup of coffee may be a good morning pick me up for parkinson's patient. having high blood pressure may make you likely more to have a stroke. eating dairy foods may bring down blood pressure. stossel: the average wait time for an appointment is 34 minutes. 62 percent of the patients did discuss the programming with their doctor. 87 percent of those found it useful. that's a good thing. but this shows about immigration. what did your coming here from india have to do with your hiring 100 people in america? why couldn't an american have done it? >> understanding how to solve problems and how to make do with whatever you have. how to be opportunistic, learn and integrate is a

perspective you get when you're arriving from a new land with people. stossel: you came here when you were 19. must have been scared. leave your country. >> absolutely. it was a really big step, arriving at chicago o'hare with a bag and a visa to study at northwestern. but my mom had actually brought us up to really dream big and work hard to make those dreams a reality. i was fortune that i have the path and opportunity to come here and learn and contribute. stossel: why not start a business in india. >> the environment in india is different. the american environment fosters creativity and is more willing to try new innovation and allow entrepreneurs to solve problems that are more future looking. stossel: in india, it's more who you know. who your family is, was. >> here, it doesn't look like where you come from, more where you're

headed and what what you want to do to make a difference. stossel: are you an indian or american. >> i'm an indian american. i'm from india, but i have american values which are similar. stossel: if you had to pick one. >> i'm an indiana american. that's what's beautiful about here. you can be american without letting go where you come from. you can integrate. everyone in america are from somewhere else. it's the hard work that makes the american here. stossel: thank you. coming up, my take.

stossel: no one should be exempt from the law. that applies to immigrants. president obama too. is he executive order legal? i doubt it. i won't spend more time on that tonight. more important to me, we have more than 10 million people living here illegally. hiding. joining a criminal underworld to get phony paperwork. that's not good for americans. we need to do something about that. make people legal. but conservatives are right to say, america is a nation of laws. you want to be here? come here legally. if you're already here and didn't obey the law, go back to your own country and apply for a visa or work permit. america should not reward lawbreaking by doing what the president

proposes just letting you stay. that's a reasonable argument except what if the immigrant did that. went back home and told the us embassy. i'd like to work in america legally. he'd get paperwork to fill out. he'd go home to wait. and wait. the state department estimates a computer programmer from india would wait an average 35 years. a high school graduate from mexico would wait 130 years. we're telling eager workers, do it legally. wait 130 years. this is nuts. no wonder we have an illegality problem. it's impossible to immigrant legally. if we ease the rules, we have more jobs, less job breaking. even highly skilled people who want to invest big bucks to create jobs in america can't get permission to come here. canada welcomes them. america loses if the

world's brightest entrepreneurs move there instead of here. immigrants are often special people. patent office they invent things at twice the rate of native americans. imagine your life without google searches. youtube. blenders. atms. all came from immigrants. so did basketball, football, the first shopping mall. comfortable jeans. even the american hot dog. i hope we let tomorrow's inventors in. if we do let you in, you have to realize this company honors free speech. ever ate at the restaurant illegal pete. it's a small chain now it's under fire because of its name. some people call that a racial slur. in time tag, the word illegal is inflammatory and inaccurate. if someone is driving a karat 14, they're an

underage driver. we call them a drunk driver not an illegal driver. congressman, conners says, i hope no one use the word illegal immigrants. the associated press banned the words. instead of illegal immigrant, reporters are supposed to say, people in violation of the law. (?) what? get a grip. if you sneak in here illegally. i may call you an illegal immigrant. we're supposed to a country of free and open debate. you want extra sensitivity or political correctness. stay home if you think you can get it there. if you want to come here and work and respect the principles that made america great, try to come. i'll fight to make the rules more sensible so you can come here reasonable. if more people are allowed to come legally, fewer will sneak in. it will be much easier to secure our border because police can focus on real criminals and

terrorists. that's our show. we'll be back next week to report on what economists call the tragedy of the commons. it almost killed thanks >> announcer: the following program is a sponsored presentation for the kitchenaid artisan stand mixer. stay tuned for a fabulous offer on the kitchenaid artisan stand mixer and selected attachments. coming up, kitchenaid is giving you v.i.p. access to an exclusive, sold-out culinary event -- the annual food & wine classic in aspen, nestled in the picturesque colorado rocky mountains. this extraordinary fine food and wine festival features chefs, accomplished wine makers, and passionate foodies like you who love to create, share, and enjoy delicious dishes with family and friends. for over 25 years, kitchenaid has been a big part of the annual food & wine classic in aspen. it's a fact that chefs choose kitchenaid for their homes more than any other brand.