i feel terrible about what i said about al sharpton. >> no you don't. >> you are funny and clearly brilliant. we're continuing right now with my friend david. first jonathon gruber calls americans stupid. now kathleen sebelius is talking about the americans. >> a lot of people don't know what insurance is all about and if they have coverage, what it means, what a deductible is, what a copay is. how to choose the network. those are complicated terms. i think the financial literacy, particularly people who did not have insurance coverage or whose employers choose their conch and present it to them is very low. >> some say it's not our literacy. it's the law's lunacy.

who is right? welcome to forbes on fox. let's go in focus to find out with steve forbes. "the soft edge" just picked as one of the top business books of the year. are we the problem, john, or is it the law? >> sebelius is 100% incorrect. if markets are smart, then the lecter rate come prices all known information. and the lect electorate is very once the law was rolled out, voters rebuked the democrats once again in 2014. voters like the markets ultimately reflect the truth and they're well awir of the damage that the politicians did. >> make, what do you think? >> i think sebelius has a good point. for instance, i think most

americans could not explain why things that are not normally covered by insurance, like lasix surgery or dental implant have gone down dramatically in price because of the free market. if they had, obamacare would never have passed. >> well, steve, mike came out with that figure. in fact most americans do understand that it is a bad law, that this is a very consistent figure despite democrats when they pass laws saying americans would learn to love it. americans still don't like it. >> they don't like it because it doesn't deliver. in free markets you don't have to be an expert. you don't have to be an engineer to drive a car or a nerd to be able to function with an iphone or ipad. so too it should be with health insurance. the problem is the system, not the american people. they understand this is a bum law, a disaster. and that's why we're eventually going to get real free markets and people will be perfectly lit rate when you have a good

system. >> it is such a bad law that the president himself has had to change it or says he's had to change it over 40 times through the executive maneuvers. >> i completely agree that it's a bad law. but vi to challenge john. the american people reflected barack obama in 2012. and the broader point of financial literacy in this count country, only six states require the testing of personal finance. we make you learn pr squared but not how to balance a checkbook. >> this condescending attitude, it's almost a definition of the big brother. you guys can't understand it so leigh it up to me, i'll decide all of the issues, i'll spell it out. that is the definition of big brother government, is it not? >> you know, there's a streak of left wing progressivism. i guess it started with wood row wilson who just relishes in the idea that the rest of it is stupid.

i don't know how america became the greatest nation that's ever existed some 200-plus years into the experiment without the help of these people. but steve is absolutely right. how is it that a three-year-old -- you can youtube this -- can figure out how to use an ipad without instructions. it's because apple present to the people a great product. and the government is not doing that with obamacare. >> governments don't present great products. in fact, sabrina, this law -- i used to cover latin america and we used to make fun of the latin american laws because they have so many and their were so complex that in order to follow one part of their law you had to violate another part of their law. that's exactly what obamacare is. >> yes. i wish i could stay as calm as others on the panel. when i heard sebelius comments, i felt my blood hit the boiling point. this is exactly the kind of soft

bigotry of low expectations that we see throughout the democratic party. i think it's disgusting. rich maybe said before the show that look, people navigate a koch kated world every day, we buy houses, buy cars, get to work every day. the reason health care is complicated is because government put its head into things. 's been increasingly getting involved for four decade. we have no transparency. we have costs out of whack with what the market demands. this is all government and nothing to do with the american people. >> and john, the fact is the reason the numbers haven't improved on its popularity is because we have seen how it's worked out.n americans last yea lost their insurance. of course the president famously sold the thing saying you're not going to lose your policy. 6.2 americans have. that was last year. we don't know about this year as well. >> voters are very wise.

contrary to the obama administration that presumes that two plus two equals a thousand. voters understand real math. no matter what happens with the supreme court decision that's going to come up, this law is dying before our own eyes. that's why president obama has had to do extra constitutional things to make it work. it's done either way. thank goodness the supreme court is going to weigh in also. >> and mike, the fact that ieer getting caught in lies. we have video, the former secretary also downplaying jonathon's issue of the law. >> is she somebody you met with a lot in. >> i did not i know our staff did. but i did not meet with jonathan gruber. >> ever in you never met him? >> he was maybe in a large room, could have been on a phone call. but in terms of small meetings discussing policy, that never happened. >> well, in fact one one of sebelius' top aides talked about

jonathan gruber a wheel back. here's what she had to say. >> i advised sebelius and i remember many calls to jonathan gruber about his expertise as we were formulating the plan. >> the tissue of lies continues to get ripped apart. >> somebody like obama isn't concerned about being caught in a lie. the way he stays in power is by taking a lot of money from a smam group of people and redistributing tight a large number of people that he hopes will vote for them. >> that is a great point, the fact that this is all about redistribution of wealth. the progressive thinks americans wants that but in fact they don't want it and they vote against it. they voted against it in november. >> taidavid, the incompetence o government is now on display. they can't redistribute money. they can't even give the money way way. in 2012 he was running against

romney. >> carrie, the thing is, i know a lot 0 these issues are complex, wu but they're needlessly complex. they've been made complex by an idiotic government. >> she's trying to distance herself from what she created. she created this mess. she created a website that's unable to be navigate ud by our average consumer. it's her fault. >> i think we've come together on that. conservatives up in arms over the president's hard turn to the left after the election. but some here say that turn could turn out to be great for america. the forbes flip side coming next. mom!

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voters told washington they want change. and still no sign the president is looking to change. instead, he's doubling down to the left from executive actions for illegal immigrants to dumping thousands of new regulations on businesses. and rich thinks this is great news for america. now rich, we've had a lot of flip sides on this store, but, wow. >> well, you know, it's not just president obama. look at how he's dragged hillary clinton to the left. hillary clinton was on stage with elizabeth warren not long ago and hillary clinton said businesses and corporations do not create jobs. this leaves a huge gap for a pro-business or a pro-enterprise reformer on the republican side who is willing to come in and slash taxes, regulations, back a strong dollar and free trade to come in and win the 2016 election. >> and rick, you got to face it. the president is making it very difficult for any democrat to look like they're pro-business right now. >> you know, i sense i'm going to have to do more than coffee

with you guys if this is where you're heading. now look, as much as you don't want to say it or believe it, this is a pro-business president. >> what? >> just look at wall street. are they complaining? i don't think so. >> look at the economy on main street. >> if you think that immigration reform is a liberal issue, we need to have a chat with the chamber of commerce, a rather conservative organization who is with the president. >> the point is that the executive actions, he's still bad-mouthing keystone pipeline. i don't think any biz -- you ask the chamber of commerce and they think in total that this is not a pro-business president, right? >> he's anti-business. never the fact of the matter is even when we create jobs in the this economy, the wages of this country are still stagnant or going down. and that guy is doing

everything. regulations. now the epa is waging war on farmers. we're not going to eat? >> over the next couple of years democrat running for president will have to deal with the president in the white house who most people think is anti-business. that is an albatross around that nominee's neck. >> yeah, it is an albatross around that nominee's neck. i just got through reading john f. kennedy's speech he was to give the day he was assassinated. guess what he was fighting for to the very end. a corporate and personal tax cut. he said that he basically applauded beating western europe. and after tax corporate profits were going up. so he was fighting to the very end for tax cuts and saying, that is what gives you the strongest expansion in world economic history. >> and this president is going to fight to the very end of his term, i think, for the opposite,

for very anti-business matters, right? >> i think he's just fighting for relevancy and for attention when he's no longer getting it. let's be fair, his presidency essentially ended the end of 2012. that's one reason the economy is starting to grow. we've got gridlock. i think it's going to help the republicans because the voters don't buy what he's going to do. what do we need from the republicans? a president who is pro-economic freedom and you will get business growth. >> i agree with john that the voters aren't buying it. but the fact is he's going to be the president for the next two years. he can do a lot of executive action. he's the head of the democratic party for the next two years right into the next presidential election. >> he can throw a lot of sand in the regulatory gear to slow everything down. steve puts it finger right on it, particularly around the epa. that's where all of the manufacturing jobs and energy

jobs are. i think he's out to protect his legacy with a 35% or 40% of americans who still support him if. >> and rick, we just had chuck schumer trying to talk down the policy saying that obamacare was a mistake. if he's trying to paint himself in the middle with, you know the next nominee is going to do that to try to distance himself from president obama. >> you'll forgive me if i don't put too much credibility in chuck schumer. he was the person who led the fight in the senate to pass obamaca obamacare. >> i got to ask lizzy a question. things have to be put in their place. what was the top personal tax rate when john kennedy was president? >> listen, i'm not going to go through these lame -- >> it's not a lame exam. >> you are not the light on the damascus road. >> i'll answer my own question. >> i don't know what your point

is. here is the point. what is it today? the effective rate for the upper bracket, 35%. >> hold on a second. it's getting a little out of control. the point is that it's the direction in which you're going that is important. granted, rates for much higher at one point when they were brought down by john kennedy, but he wanted to bring them down. this president has brought the rates up. >> that's right. and the regulations are another form of taxation which increased big ones exponentially in these executive orders and regulatory decrease coming out of the epa. one of the things that lizzy touched on kennedy boasted about rising corporate profits. you never hear democrats boast about that today. >> the point is that kennedy would be the democrat party -- kennedy would be unrecognizable to the kennedy democrat party today. he would not be welcome. >> and the bottom line is are there any democrats that will be seen by voters in 2016 as pro-business? >> i don't think you're going to

see it. and that's what's so interesting. it's as though they've given the republicans the opportunity of a lifetime to promote a pro-business platform. what we're going to see if in any of these guys have a clue about what this is. fingers crossed. paying to put cameras on all police officers. some activists claiming it will prevent the protests. but here first, he's a convicted murderer and a former member of a terror group in america. why is he about to start teaching students at a public college in america??

talk about getting schooled. the university of illinois just rehiring a former member of a left wing terror group to teach college kids again. his name is james kilgore and he's also a convicted murderer. now one illinois businessman is threatening to halt millions of his donation to the school unless they change course. this is unreal. >> it is unreal. can you imagine a ku klux klanner who murdered an innocent person being hired by the university of illinois? no way. but left wing terrorist murderer, that's okay. the businessman is right. and the university of illinois has to understand if they're going to do this nonsense with the academic integrity goes out the window, there are consequences for it. >> it's amazing that you would have to consider withholding your contribution if they decide not to hire a convicted murderer

which they've decided to do, by the way. >> it's a weird one. look, the businessman should do whatever he wants. and i don't think that should have an impact on what the school does. i'd like to be able to say that the school should pursue whatever course they think is right. but steve makes a point that i don't know how to argue with. we would react differently. the school would not hire that person that steve suggested, the ku klux klan person that murdered somebody. can't argue the point. it's fair to put it on the table. >> this is a public university so there are taxpayers monies going for this as well. >> do parents waelly want their division costs going to guys like this. today you can't even say the name reagan on a college campus. the soa was so to tall tarn in their thinking, that they don't even allow the talk of, you know, free market economic policies on college campuses. >> for those who don't remember,

you might remember the liberation army, i the same group that kidnapped patty hurst. these were really evil people. >> i agree with the businessman is doing. if people object to this, then don't go to the school. that's the best way to cast your vote. >> but sabrina -- what wer looking at was video of patty hurst when she was, she says, forced to help in a bank robbery. but it's not just this one case. there are cases all over america. bill heirs of course and his wife, kathy be deen at nyu in columbia. the list goes on and on at radicals that the universities have hired. you can have radical believes. these are convicted murderers in many cases. >> look, we want a diversity of opinion on college campuses. i don't want to get rid of all

liberals. but the problem is that they're so steeped in their liberal ideology within they don't see a problem. but if we had somebody who had eld up a planned parenthood, they wouldn't be teaching at one of these universities. parents don't know all of what's going on. it absolutely should be called out. just because he did his time, so to speak, doesn't mean he should get whatever he wants when he comes out. he can have a job, just not teaching students. by the way, something else making college studentsary their eyes pop, the skyrocketing cost of tuition.

the smart stock to help pay for college, the triple qs. >> and it also has health care stocks in it, i'm liking it. >> mike, you like it? >> really smart way to play tek. >> they're going to benefit from

falling oil prices. >> do you like that? >> i like conning a ra a lot. >> everything agrees? merry christmas. that's it for forbes on fox. thank you all for watching. keep it right here. eric bolling and "cashin' in". >> put your hands behind your back. >> i can't breathe. >> law enforcement body cam plan. the obama administration is asking for money to equip police officers with body cams. sounds like a good idea. but it wouldn't have help this guy. is this the best way to protect leaves? guess who time may honor as their person of the year? yeah, none other than the ferguson protesters. then just as the gas prices are finally falling, the government wants to tax gap even more, pumping th