our gift wrapping segment. >> have a great saturday. finish up that shopping. now we know that sony's hack attack was a north korean tack job and the cyber security chair saying it was just the beginning. warning, our power grid and wall street could be next. a state sponsored hacker crash those? will our economy crash with it? >> hi, i'm brenda buttner. this is bulls and bears. gary b. smith, tracie burns, john and naomi. welcome. lights out for the economy? >> brenda, that is the least of

our worries. maybe lights out for the united states. this was studied by congress in 2008. the effects of the power grid. whether it's that or a hack attack, if the grid goes out, they estimate that within a year, brenda, due to starvation, illness, general society breaking down, 90% of the u.s. population could perish. there would be no food or water. it would be a combination of the walking dead, hurricane sandy and 9/11. it would be disastrous. >> john, this is a big weakness. do you think it would be that dire? >> the e.m.p. that gary is talking ability, those are the projectio projections. i have a hard time believing that could happen. it could happen by a solar flare in the atmosphere. what's more likely to happen is a simple hack. we have 5800 power plants in

north america. 450,000 miles of high voltage lines. we have seen zero day vulnerability in power plants that the vendor doesn't know, but they are sold on the web to places like north korea, to places like iran. if this happens, you have a cascading failure. it's similar to what gary is talking ability. dallas fails. you have something in ft. worth to take over that capacity of dallas and because of that, it burns up the grid. we are probably already hacked as far as china and russia, they have been going at it since 1998. yes, it is the biggest vulnerability the united states has. >> are you worried? >> i am. we need to focus on implementing the legislation that's been cast on preventing cyber security hacks. but, we also need to sanction the countries allowing it to

happen. sanctioning north korea, they are unique because they don't have banks. bad actors are supporting them and setting up corporations to allow them to facilitate. sony was vulnerable. they were storing passwords in one place. a lot of companies have done that. wall street has been hacked. banks have been hacked. we need to make sure these countries aren't getting away with it. >> we survived the horror terror attack. we have smart computer people, here. >> i'm with john, i don't buy the walking dead scenario. it is extremely vulnerable. the next hot, summer day can throw it out. it's three massive grids interconnected and it could blow. to your point about the market,

people are on edge to invest in the market. if the market gets hacked, it goes down because of hackers. forget people putting thundershower money in it. everybody is going to be under the mattress, again. >> hack attacks used to be basically identity theft, stealing, cyber hack attacks are very, very different. they can take down a bank. they can take down an institution and they have a different purpose. >> yeah, well, fortunately, most hacking has more of a financial purpose or just the glamour of it in some cases. i don't want to overblow the danger here. i don't buy the apocalypse scenario. wall street has been hacked half a dozen times during this show. it's been going on. sony, there's been hacks before, not by south korea, but the play station. everybody is going to get

hacked, it's a question of when. as long as the result isn't that bad, i don't think it's been bad because the results haven't been bad. we have better hackers here than other countries. as far as no power for two weeks, i don't see that happening. >> gary, take him on. >> look, maybe jonas is underselling it. i do see it as worrisome. it's not just a case of oh, my gosh, my identity got stolen, i have to go through and renew my license and credit card. think about the situation. you experienced hurricane sandy up close. at least in that case, people that lived on the island and surrounding areas, they could drive to grandma's house in north carolina or something. now, just imagine the situation where you can't drive there because the roads are probably closed because everyone's run out of gas. you know, you cut down the power, fresh food is not

delivered. water plants cannot operate. it is catastrophic and can happen like that. john knows this, a lot of these plants are vulnerable. it takes dedication on north korea and china and we are in dire straits. >> how likely do you think this will be? >> fairly unlikely. everybody said, we are constantly at threat and hacked. i was here during hurricane sandy. the one that is are affected the most are the elderly, the ones that can't get up and down the stairs to get water. our government needs to set preventive measures and really go after those bad actors, internally, externally. the 18-year-old sitting in his college dorm room for fun or the person from north korea. it's highly unlikely, but we need to take preventive measu s

measures. >> they are testing it. they hacked in. they try to figure it out, go back. they go to their college dorm room or underground office, who knows. they are preparing themselves for when, i guess to gary's point, they can take it out. that is the part where i don't think we are prepared. john? >> this is not highly unlikely. admiral rogers, just last month said it's not a matter if, it's a matter of when. we have been hacked by the chinese for over 15 years now. sanctions do not work. if north korea is to blame, i'm for taking him out. china, we have hacked them, they have hacked us. same the beijing and russia. the problem are the rogue

states. iran says they have the second largest cyber army in the world and they spend a lot of money trying to get back at us for what we probably, tongue and cheek said we did with melting down their nuclear reactor. we need to decentralize our grid. we need more hackers. we need 20,000 to 30,0 00. that's where we need to focus. >> with more anti-police protests popping up. police departments seeing their budget blow up. neil and the crew asking if they are doing good. that's at the bottom of the hour. up first, more states buckling the demands and hiking minimum wage on january 1st. is that why more companies are replacing workers with robots

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i'm eric shawn. back to bulls and bears. careful what you wish for. companies may be firing back against the union backed push to hike the minimum wage by hiring robots like these, instead of human beings. it's a growing trend. does this mean jobs are about to short circuit. john, what do you think? >> yes, forget about whether minimum wage going up is good or bad. it hurts businesses. look at eli whitney, it

displaced a lot of workers. amazon started using robots. it's coming, whether you like it or not. higher wages make it happen longer. plus, with a robot, there's no drama. >> they would make great teenagers. replace those with robots. naomi, what do you think? higher wages do push companies to try different methods. >> this is a company obsessed with technology. they want to get the highest profit. a tech know logical company. they grow into larger companies. they want the largest profit margin. every day americans, well educated americans who can't find jobs right now. the working class is looking for a livable wage. these are the people buying the products on amazon. if they don't have money because they are not getting jobs, how

are they going to be able to use them. >> somebody had to create the robot. now, we have an underground economy. >> i would do anything to get rosy from the jetson's to clean my house. it's not just minimum wage, it's obamacare. no one wants to pay health care costs. it's regulations. there's no choice but be efficient. do we want robots in health care? no. deliver a bottle of wine on a friday night? heck yeah. >> gary b., is this the push for the minimum wage backfiring? >> i think it is. basically, unions are small and sometimes large cartels. they keep the price high like opec tried to do. they are started to turn into a

dinosaur. you can't just force mandate arbitrarily high wages. technology is always coming along. a comment about companies being obsessed with profit. thank god bill gates was obse obsessed with profit. these people built whole industries, whole, almost countries, if you will. what's that? bill gates started out as a small business owner. he was obsessed with profits then built microsoft. whether it's automation or henry ford with the automated production line, these people made the economy better for everyone. >> they are not job creators. >> hold on. i have -- jonas, do you like

robots? what do you think of this? >> if you raise wages, you are increasing it higher to build or make technology solutions to replace labor. we are talking it's a bad thing. maybe it's the upside of all this beaurocracy. employers are going to say find a robot to do it because i'm sick of paying real people to do it. that's a good thing. high-technology levels than really low wages and 2% unemployment. it is a stupid trade off. it's the countries with the high wage that is have the high-tech work forces. some day, in the future, we are going to have all robots, probably. sorry that some people are going to be out of a job because of

that. did you see the five fish story? >> sit around all day and have servants serving us stuff? who is going to pay for the robots. >> a television is half the price of the one six years ago. >> that is a ridiculous argument. >> john, go ahead. >> it's like being mad at the train because you knocked out the horse and buggy. technology enhances the economy. that argument does not hold water. >> that's got to be the last word, guys. >> i agree with you, jonas. >> okay. we'll mark this moment. just over an hour, eric what do you have coming up? >> hi, brenda, a great week to be a dictator. america making nice with castro. what it means for all of us.

plus, young and hopeless. why one in five millenials are living in poverty. we are all over that and more. see you at 11:30. >> thanks. we'll be watching. planning to get a tax refund? don't count on it. the irs is ♪ you don't need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible.

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okay, first the budget cuts, then the threat. the irs chief warning without more tax dollars, your tax refund may be delayed in the new

year. tracy, you say the irs is using scare tactics to get more cash, how so? >> they could get money other places. my advice to everyone is the second you get your forms, file it and get your money as soon as possible. let the irs sit on this. this happens every year, brenda. it comes off congress pushing extenders and pushing stuff down the line and waiting for the last minute. if it's anybody's fault, it's congress' fault, not the irs' fight. >> i agree. they want to campaign against the irs and blame the irs for their problems. they are the ones holding up government now, trying to force a shut down and cut the budget of the irs. >> we don't have a shutdown right now. >> they are trying to force it. >> john, the irs is not cutting back in other places, just our money. not obamacare, for example.

>> i'm not sure how it's between the republicans and the democrats, but it's political theater. the irs may have an argument. 12.5 million budget in 2010. they are at $10.9 million. so, they added to that the overseeing of obamacare. they are stretched right now. they may have an argument. i don't think anybody will defend the irs. it's why we need to do what steve forbes said and get rid of the millions of americans spending time on tax returns and going with a flat tax. >> jonas, defend them. >> i'm their greatest spokesman, i tell you. you know something, this is the one department, they are the profit center. of course people hate the irs. that's why politicians can slam them, because we don't like them either. at the end of the day, they make

the money. every dollar they have in pay leads to $15. it's silly to cut money to the agency that collects money from taxpayers. it's like not pitching toll thing saying you can't fix the meter. you are not bringing the money. yeah, they are overworked. it's not their fault we don't have a flat tax and obamacare was dumped on them. they are doing their job, collecting taxes. it's a small budget. nih. look at the work they have to do and the people they have to go after. >> gary b., don't you want to know who the pr person is? how can they make us hate them more? >> i want to know jonas' relationship with the irs. his dad must have been an irs agent or something like that. i want to go back to the lunacy of this. john mentioned their budget is about $12 billion. by the way, they asked for $14 billion. this short fall is about $250

million. we are talking 2.5%. are you trying to say, in an eight-hour day, it boils down to saving everyone 12 minutes? you are trying to tell me at the irs, there's not one piece of inefficiency they could cut? you know what, joe, don't get us that cup of coffee or your coffee break is two minutes shorter today. i think they could find the $250 million. >> thanks, guys. thanks to naomi for joining us. cubans taking to the streets, celebrating the ties with the communist country. an iconic u.s. company is about to take off because of it.

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predictions, gary b. >> if we have learned anything, cyber security is big. >> jonas, bull or bear in. >> bear. >> john, your prediction. >> gas prices down means consumption is up. valero up 20%. >> gary, bull or bear? >> bear. better oil stocks out there. >> jonas, your prediction. >> i'm a few hundred miles from a dictatorship obama made -- another 20% on that. >> john bull or bear? >> bullish on cuban cigars.

>> tracy. >> only in new york, amazon is offering one hourdelivery. >> you have to love that, you can procrastinate to the last minute. neil cavuto is next. protesters aren't just pushing an agenda, they are pushing police budgets to the brink. with more protests coming up, police departments are doubling down. the police chief says they are getting expensive and training the department budget. in boston, $2 million to beef up security there. the potential for violence is driving up the cost. the matter of dollars and cents is making no sense. we have our panel here. charles, this is getting to be pricey. now we are understanding it's getting to be