>> but the real winner is sck. the fed fallout. stocks tanking after central bankers saying the global economy has them worrying. so they're keeping rates near zero. now some folks fretting a recession is coming. should they be? hi, everyone. i'm brenda buttner. this is bulls and bears and we have our bulls and bears this week. welcome to everybody. gary, these people are scared. should they be? >> i don't know about scared, but i think worried, yes. you know, a lot of people were

arguing for a fed increase in rates. i do not think they should have raised rates. i think they did the right thing for the exact reasons that you alluded to. i think the economy is hurting right now and could definitely slip into a recession. look, housing is flat. wages are flat. unemployment is flat. certainly not edging up when you talk about total unemployment. i don't really see the signs here. just take gasoline prices for example. one reason they're not creeping up is there is not a lot of demand out there. if there is not a lot of gloond, it demand, it shows industrial protection is slipping. i don't think we're in horrible shape, but this is definite slowdown environment. >> so john, some people were winner, some losers by this fed nonmove. basically if you're a saver, you can put your money under your mattress because you're not making anything. but if you're a borrower, you can refinance your mortgage. but what do you think this portends for the economy?

>> well, i think it pore trente that the fed is worried. you raise rates when your economy is starting to overheat and we certainly don't have that happening right now. the fed missed its window about 9 to 12 months ago. because they should is the wrong time to start thinking about it. they're looking at a global slowdown. you have china has slowed down significantly, that affects a lot of emerging markets. is that contagion effect there. so far the united states has been able to stand alone and the feds say they were independent that once the unemployment rate got below a certain level, they would raise rates. but what they're not the saying to me is even more important because they're obviously worried about the u.s. economy. we're not doing bad. this is not a depression, but we're not doing great either and that's what the fed is saying i think here in not raising rates and that is worrworrisome.

>> people like me and others with money in their 401(k) see triple digit swings and they get worried. but if you take a broader perspective, should they be putting their money in safe havens like gold and treasuries? >> people are scared because the signs are just really worrisome and then what happens is fear begets more fear and then you become inactive and you don't increase capital formation and you don't invest. it's a negative cycle which individuals can't break and the government has to help break and regulation has to come down. but definitely given everything we're seeing, some of your money has to be put in a safe haven. you'd be unwise otherwise. >> and what is your take on this? >> i think this is why pundits don't run the fed the fact that the data wasn't appropriate, this is because janet yellen is not a wall street trader. she's pargtient.

wi there is still time and they are being extremely data driven. it wasn't there so it didn't happen this time around, but the hair trigger response that we see is this a recession is absolutely why i'd rather have janet yellen in this position than the follow be beiks who ta it. >> but hair trigger, almost nine years with rates near zero. is it really the fed's job to prop up the market? >> well, it is when the market is really rough and the economy is rough. takes case where they probably went too long. they really kind of painted themselves in a box if they raised rates, stock market probably would have tanked. but if they didn't because the economy is pushing another recession down the line, the stog m stock market tanks. we're going into unchartered territory.

it kind of is scary because you're like we can't really lower rate as whole lot more to get out of 9 next recession, so that psychological fear i'm worried about that we can't relax knowing the federal reserve can cut back and buy us out of the next recession. so that is something that i would be scared of. >> gary, you're worried, many people believe the market is a leading indicator for the economy, that it gives us some hints about what the economy may bring. very volatile. what does that tell us? >> first, let me compliment the move for in this case not the blaming george bush. but i appreciate the restraint in that regard. i think the market is leading. i think one of the reasons the market sold off on friday is because it says oh, my gosh, maybe this economy is not good and there are a lot of traders out there, janet yellen included by the way, who are looking at this and saying you know what,

maybe this really doesn't warrant the market going straight up. maybe, you know, stocks will tip toe for a while especially given companies that export, countries like china, seeing a significant slowdown. so maybe the market is telling us that it's not that great out there. >> this has been a 6 1/2 year bhul m bull market. stocks have to go down at some point. and people have made a lot of money in them. so it's not necessarily that you just yank all your money out. >> and people have lost a lot timing the market. if you could predict when the recession was going to be, you could go to rome and be canonized. all we can do is know our own personal situation and try to invest and save in the way that is appropriate for our hopes for the future with strong caution right now p because it is it eventually as you say is, what

goes up must come down. there are cycles. >> john, there are some positives out there. gas prices are lower and that may be because demand is lower across the world. but that puts more money in consumers' pockets. housing is recovering a bit. do you see the positives out there in the economy? >> there theare a lot of positi. also what is coming on with iran, you'll have a million extra barrels coming on. which is good for the consumer. over 70% of gdp is driven by the consumer. but i don't exactly share the putting janet jeyellen on a pedestal just yet. alan greenspan calls the 2008 recession, wage price freeze and price commodity freeze, caused a lot of the problems in the '70s.

andrew jackson shut down the bank. so for everything from paul volcker and reagan, you have a lot of government people that have gotten this wrong. i'm not in the camp that janet yellen is all knowing. she missed her window and now she's reacting to the market. >> andrew jackson? that's a little much. >> some are saying that hamilton should never have created the fed. but you're the one who likes what they have been doing. >> when you have a job that needs to be done, send a woman. >> there we go. >> oh, wow. >> i have to send that to jonas. quick response. >> if if you look at the history of this country when we didn't have central banking, that was a scary time. i will take the frothiness over the panic. i personally think this is the

strongest economy right now. personally, it is a fact and the whole world right now, and in that case as an american invest investor, you don't need safe havens like gold. in america, stocks and bonds do well. gold is down 40% over the last few years. as much as the stock market fell this 2008 that is not a safe haven for u.s. based investors. >> i want it give it over to susie. >> i have gold in my safe. i feel that there is value to gold. i won't go head to head with jonas on this one, but i do think there is a value to gold. >> okay. thanks, guys. cavuto on business in just about 20 minutes from now. what have you got? >> we just saw carly fiorina take on these guys. now can she get the money guys. and while hungary is putting up fences to keep the refugees out, are we about to take 65,000 more of them in? >> can't wait.

but up here first, forget going after made in china. the donald know going after u.s.

i called the head of ford or whatever company, i say congratulations, i understand you're building a massive plant in mexico and you're taking a lot of jobs away from us in mitch achigan and other places.

i don't like that. so what i'd say is the following. i don't want you do that. and if do you it, you're not going to have any cars coming across the border unless you pay 3 35% tax. >> donald trump putting companies on notice if he becomes president telling them if you move manufacturing down to mexico, get ready to pay up. jonas, you say the donald has it right? >> sounds like bernie sanders and looks like it would start a trade war, nafta violation. however, it's not a free market if you move a factory someplace to avoid domestic cost, regulations, environmental rules. so you can equalize that kind of maneuver with taxes because they don't want to have the rules in mexico or whatever and then it is a free market. you wouldn't need the tax or tariff with japan or germany because they play by the rules.

but they're literally taking our jobs by dodging regulations. so he's right on this if you get into about it. >> don't we have to think about the consumers in this? >> oh, them, the consumers? i agree with jonas even talking about how bernie sanders might like this. i think this is a great idea if you're a democrat and you don't believe in globalization and what free markets do. and this is very perplexing to me because i disagree, i do think that ultimately what will happen in this state, about if he calls up the guy and says you got to keep your factory and work a back room deal, of course what will happen, they won't -- car companies won't eat the cost. it will go on to the consumer. the jobs that he saves in mitch wi michigan will not hang around very long. so donald trump talks about his business experience. real estate is a sort of different thing. real estate is a beast unto

itself and i'm not so sure he looks at business the way someone who has run factories address plants does. because this is to me sort of off the reservation. >> let's talk about this specific idea. we've had -- both of you have said that democrats and bernie sanders might like this. let's go to a democrat. do you like will thithis? >> i think if donald trump was president, he'd be the first person whose call was actually not picked up. i wish this was a sign that republicans were making a shift to support labor. i wish this was a sign of -- >> well, does it, though? it's basically putting a tax on companies who move their business overseas. >> this is donald trump playing to a particular part of the republican voters that are -- >> so you don't support this? >> i don't support it coming from the one who actually -- i agree with susie, i don't actually think he really understands what he's talking about. so this commitment, the phone

calls that would be made, this is all just a fantasy. >> i'm surprised about that because there has been a lot of talk from democrats about outsourcing and moving elsewhere. gary, what do you think about this? >> a couple things. i think if obama had said this, she would say this is the greatest thing in the world and it will protect the union jobs. susie had it right, it will protect the jobs absolutely in the ford mchm factories but who pays the penalties? the whole reason ford wants to outsource, they want to lower their costs. and if they don't do it, someone else will. if i'm paying $2,000 less for a car and me and a million other people are buying ford vehicles paying $2,000 less that's $2,000 more this my poin my pocket tha spend on star dubucks and go toe

kroger. so donald trump in this case is being an idiot. he's looking at the few in disyoursedi disrespect for the money. >> i want to get john in here. john. >> we tried this before. back in the late '20s, put fuss to a further recession. i won't mention andrew jackson again, but dealing with companies that go overseas, that is the symptom. the problem that mr. trump is right about, i don't agree with the tax, the problem is america is not becoming competitive. it's becoming uncompetitive. look at the tech companies that are moving to ire land because they don't have this fugitive tax code. look at companies moving out of this country because they don't have to deal with needless compliance and needless regulation. we need tort reform. we need loser pays on frivolous lawsuit. because of that, it's becoming uncompetitive to do business in the united states. i don't agree with the tax, but i agree with the motive.

all right. what's coming up? >> illegal immigration, activists bashing donald trump's plan to build the wall. will the pope also bash the plan? plus the president saying you're better off under his reign, but your paycheck may be saying something completely different. we'll do the math. and up here first, remember this. if it's undecided when i become president, i will answer your questions. >> that was hillary clinton on keystone then. this is her thousand. now. >> i'm going to tell you what i think soon. >> but some saying for pete's >> but some saying for pete's sake, why wait?

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i did not see that coming. don't deal with disruptions. get better internet installed on your schedule. comcast business. built for business. after saying she's in no hurry to decide on the keystone pipeline, hillary clinton saying her decision is coming soon. susie, you say stop stalling. >> the oil is pumped. and the oil has to get they're somehow. it will either be trucked, rail or it will be the pipeline. and when you look at this from an economic and environmental views, the pine lipeline is the option. >> and the unions are supporting this. should hillary? >> well, i'm looking forward to her answer, as well, but i also have a concern that these are not real job, these are temporary jobs and we need to also i think actually listen to the environmentalists because they are not in support of this.

>> gary, jobs. this has been the energy revolution has produced jobs. wouldn't this help produce jobs, as well? >> wrbrenda, absolutely. next puig can i go before susie? because she takes all my good talking points. now imjust imimitating her. what susie said, ditto. we know there are jobs out there. you can argue they're only temp rather. but there are jobs. somebody has to build it, service it. the oil will get here anyway. we might as well go forward. i think this is a no-brainer. it's been approach to be safe environmentalry. let's go forward. >> john, do you agree? >> i agree with gary about susie. susie, you'll never make a politician. you have way too much common

sense. you're adding about 250 miles. this is the most environmentally friendly way to ship this oil. the government has said this is a line in the sand that the president has drawn, not like syria. this is just a line they're drawing for some crazy reason to appease the environmentalists. it doesn't make any sense. >> jonajonas. >> like having less gas stations is an environmental way to make us use less gas. pipeline prescription r restric more costs. if she waits longer, there won't be any jobs because oil is too expensive and too cheap to pump through it anyway. >> okay. thanks, guys. susie is leaving now so you guys can have the good points. the name that is about to get a lift this sin city.

predictions. gary. >> china is helping us build a rail line. up 20%. >> jonas. >> bear. >> john. >> will two pets on the rugby world cup that just started. mastercard is up 20% in a year. >> bull or bear?

>> bear. >> it's a big loss the taxi l lobbyists. uber is smiling up. 25% in a ye. risky but a good one. well, after the debate, can carly fiorina get the dollars and who knew the debate would be the easy part? carly needs to get the cash right now. is she getting it. we have ben stein. dana will be back next week. you have to seize the moment and we're told at least that right now carly is doing just