things in bad times. >> ben. >> spiders. hold on. it hurts sometimes, but you've got to hold on. >> i'll tell you who never hurts. david, he's next. after his big win in new hampshire, bernie sanders promising to help the poor and middle class with government programs. >> we are going to make public colleges and universities tuition free. i believe in a medicare for all single payer program. we must strengthen and expand social security. >> and there were a lot more after that as well, but some saying our big government programs are exactly what's hurting the middle class and having more will make it worse. who's got it right? welcome to forbes on fox. let's go in focus to find out with steve, rich, michael,

carry, bruce jackson and john. so, john, just take a look at federal spending over the past sa years. it has increased enormously and of course, president obama has his proposed budget of $4.1 trillion. which is off of that chart. haven't the past 15 years told us that more government spending just makes it worse? >> of course they do. because government can only spend what it taxes or borrows from us first, so it misallocates it and it's got to be suppressed these policies aren't just bad for the middle class, they're bad for all income classes. i think most americans would agree they'd prefer to work for someone who's prosperous. sanders hates the rich. if you go after the rich, you go after the opportunities of everyone else. >> and you know, bernie sanders, bruce, is not, it's not just republicans saying he's spendinging too much. hillary clinton on thursday night said that. take a listen. >> i think that the best analysis that i've seen based on

senator sanders' plan is that it would probably increase the size of the federal government by about 40%. >> so, bruce, even hillary saying it's too much. >> well, yeah, whether you're, it's sort of like a whack a mole thing in my opinion. if you're, if you have spending more money whether it be on grants or loans or the government providing free tuition, i think it's going to these kids coming out of college for example, they have mountains of debt. that they're unable to pay back and if you don't have them going workforce, i think that hurts the economy, too, so i think there could be some medium here and i agree with sanders in the sense we should have a moral obligation to help in some way if they have this mountain of college debt. >> but you've used the word some a couple of times there. steve forbes, there's a lot more than some new spending. take a look at his spending plan. $18 trillion. i mean, there's no ending to it. >> it's going to mane a much higher taxes and taxes are a burden on the economy.

it hurts productive work risk taking sublg success. also, bernie wants to binge on regulation, so in the name of help iing the poor and middle class, bernie sanders economic program, david, is going to make barack obama look like ronald reagan. it's going to truly depress an already hurting economy. >> and rich, to steve's point. incentives matter. you u put more taxes on the business sector, you'll have less business, right? >> that's absolutely right. and the size of government. under reagan and bill clinton, the federal government was about 20% of gdp and the economy grew at over 3%. under george bush and barack obama, about 25% of gdp and we've slowed the 2% growth. now, sanders want to to take it up to 30 to 35% of gdp p. >> and the green sprouts in this economy. the more you have big government, the less of those green sprouts you've got. >> yes, less rnd, less

improvement in the quality of life for every income bracket and regulation is right. it hurts poor people the most because they don't have an army of o lawyers and bureaucrats to pay to compile these regulations an we see this with dodd frank. it's squeezed community banks. that means less banking for small business owners and entrepreneurs. that hurts poor people. especially african-american bankers the most. >> we heard a lot about the american dream from bernie. it's not more government hand outs. it's upward mobility. it's the ability to start a little business without having to work were a boss. it's not a lot about government hand outs, is it? >> that's been the one thing that's differed in the u.s. and other countries. the ability to move up economically. what bernie is proposing has been tried in this country. fdr did it in the 30 '30s. it was a disaster. denmark did it and they have no

economic mobility compared to the u.s. really, the people he's propo proposing to help the most are the ones he's going to hurt. >> it's the american dream, not the european dream that voters want, isn't it? >> we're different. the people who crossed oceans and borders to get here. we want more freedom and i think too often what our side forgets is that government spending is a massive tax. it amounts to paul ryan and nancy pelosi allocating the economy's resources or the talented. reduce that and you get major economic growth. if you go in the reverse, things will get worse. >> not just government. but you're also crowding out the family. as we expand the welfare state, the family has been destroyed. when you put government in the way, that crowds out all other incentives and all other people who are going to be innovating a a way. >> the fact is, sometimes government handouts hurt people. >> here's the deal.

i don't want to start repeating myself and sound like marco rubio, but i will say there's something touche. something has to be done about the mountain of college tet and so, what are you going to do if you have you know, young people out there that are already working full time. making minimum wage or less and they're unable to pay back the debts to these banks, then you look at that, you're going to have another bank bailout down the road, so you have to come up with some ideas here. >> it's not free. that's the point. teachers need to get paid. the buildings need to get paid for. the grounds need to be kept. something has to, something has to pay for it and the question is whether we're going to run out of money to pay for all that free stuff he's offering. >> john said, government doesn't create resources. it spends resources. seizes resources and in terms of college enl kags, it's the government that's made possible these rapid rises of tuition. why can't you do higher

education today in two and a half and three years instead of four years and in term of the coping with the current debts, if you have a vibrant economy, these kids will be able to get jobs and will be able to pay thoeds debts down instead of saying we got to forgive the debts because yu can't get a job anymore. >> and rich, the one thing that bernie says i think the true is that the middle class is getting squeezed. it is a problem for the middle class, but as we've seen with the chart of government spending, that's inspite of the government spending. government has been spends a lot of money as the middle class has been squeezed. is there a relationship or not? >> yeah, there is. i have to give bernie credit he does diagnose the symptoms. you can accomplish a lot more. in fact, a lot more of his hands if you have 4% growth as opposed to 2%, so how do we get 4%? we have to unleash all of this e entrepreneur talent in the

united states. >> getting back to the american dream, we want our kids to do better than us. we have the possibility that not happening now is it just a pipe dream that it ever will happen again? >> there may be a lot of real stupid people out there that are going to think bernie's going to give them stuff for free. really what these young people should be looking for are people running for president that offer them liberty, freedom, the ability to take charge of their own lives. >> good way to end it. thank you very much, gang. the supreme court slamming the brakes on eric prk a's new climate change rules. why some say that slam just saved jobs. that's next.

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natty va facilitfacility. looks like a heated battle. in the supreme court. the epa chief just sayinging this week the high court slamming the brakes on its new climate change rules will not slow it down. saving a whole lot of jobs. how so? >> well, regulations, especially excessive, are economy killers. job killers because they pose burdens on businesses like excessive taxation and what the supreme court is saying you can't do these things like you're king louis. but barack obama's acting like one. the regulatory agencies acting

like one. >> bruce, the epa chief is at least thumbing her nose at the supreme court. she says the decision is not going to slow us down, but that is exactly what the supreme court says. they want people to slow down a little bit and wait until all the evidence is in. >> well, i think that the supreme court, if they had years these regulations were not going to go into places for years, and i think what it does is it potentially hurts our international standing because they think it could derail the paris climate change accord. and also, it gives these, states an excuse not diversify their economy. >> rich, one thing is being heard is a lot of companies, look at the coal stocks. some were done 100%. these companies are getting slammed and of course, jobs are being lost.

>> yeah. and you also have to throw in saudi oil opening up the flood gates into that, too. but look, tina mccarthy, head of the epa is a political hack and a tyrant. no scientific background. no background in the energy industry, but she's is spearhead toward this executive order main area, perpetuated by this president. >> the spum's going to back down or not? >> i don't think so, david. this is the first time in history that supreme court has issued a stay on something that was before federal appeals court. before the appeals court is ruled. i think they've said, you know, dictator obama, enough is enough. we have separation of power this is this country. we have something called evidence that has to be put forth before the court and i really think they've had enough of this. >> well, john, this is not just an academic argument by the way. climate change. there are real jobs being lost

because of the epa's decision. i think we got a chart we could put up. look at this. we have lost one-third of the jobs in the coal industry alone in the past seven, eight years. >> that's why we should like the supreme court stay. mike hits on the important point about separation of powers. the shame here is the supreme court isn't even more activist about keeping the president and congress within institutional lines. if so, we wouldn't worry about who's elected to either office, simply because the president and congress couldn't do much ch this is a very positive step for jobs, economy, freedom, all that. >> also talking about costs. costs to exhuconsumers, low inc families. this will kill the poor family. we see this in europe. germmy spent $2 trillion in trying to clean up their energy, but what ended up happeninging, it jacked up the price for lower income families, so this is just so harmful. in our country, we've had a failed revolution and seen our emissions start to go down.

let's not derail the apple cart here and that's what obama wants to do. >> finally, we're getting a break at the pump. no doubt some of these epa regulars would increase the cost of energy. >> sure it would. they have a hate of oil and gas and not to mention the attacks these politicians want to put on it, so leave the markets alone. natural gas is a clean fuel and in terms of the so-called emission, actually, over time, they're good for agriculture. little warmer air. >> what do you think the american people care more about? global climate change or the cost at the pump? >> well, i agree that cost of the pump is down and the cost is, that's certainly important, but i think over time, people are going to be moving away from these type of coal and some of these other harmful fuels and i think that's going to happen over time.

>> why should they at current prices? current prices just makes no sense. that's why electric cars don't sell well. >> well, you know, but bruce has a point that i think natural gas and oil have come down so far so fast. that gets tangled up in this, but what we should have is a free market. >> that's exactly the point. isn't it? >> yeah, of course. you never know what the market wants. it maybe that we want electric cars, maybe we want gasoline cars, but we know the private profit motive of people will get us what we want if we leave the government out of it. >> that's the last word. the cashing in gang getting ready to roll. eric? >> hey, dave, the liberal media unleashing on trump and his supporters, but will it backfire and give voters the last laugh? plus, with bernie and tonld striking a nerve, one popular comedian saying it's because of our pc culture. can't wait for that one at 11:30. >> thanks, but up first, our central bank considering

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interest in the old days is they were able to lend money to small and new businesses so they could pay spres to their depositors. what the fed has done is a form of rent control. it conforms the markets and those small businesses are the ones that hurt the most and the government reaps the benefit. >> the depositors, we shouldn't have to pay banks in order to take our money. >> i think that the interest rates are all so low, david, i mean, everybody who has a safety deposit box is paying for that. i know this is a real new thing and we don't know much about it, which is unsettling, but i read somewhere that if it lowers the price of currency that it makes exporters happy. and export industry. >> rich, the people, savers are already furious. we are picked off at the fact that we make zero interest. we're supposed to be rewarded for saving money. instead, we're being penalized

and may get penalized even more. >> yes, and you, david, wrote a great piece on that on your website. and this has all kinds of distortive effects. even large, rich company, instead of investing in the future of their companies, are using these low interest rates to buy back their own stock. that's not that productive. >> you're right. in theory, this leasing we've had was supposed to spur investment. it didn't happen. it's punishing the savers. do we want more people stuffing money under their mattresses? that's what we're going to get. >> john,st what's going to happen if we get these negative interest rates? >> in the real world, there's no such thing as zero interest rates or negative interest rate, so positive is that it's going the expose the fed as utterly divorced from the true, real world and it's going to bring about its demise even more quickly than we thought so. the fed is creeping toward irrelevancy. >> to that point, mike, this is

an election year and savers are already getting crushed because of no interest rates. if they have to start paying, there's going to be a voter revolt against what the fed wants to do here. >> and the fed is in a tough spot. either a revolt or another revolt if the fed allows interest rates to normalize, this stock market bubble it's created with its low interest rate is going to continue to burst, so they're in a tough spot. >> it is an election year, but president obama is still president. he wants the fed to do this. because it will make the economy look better. it would make wall street happy because they love cheap money, so what's going to happen? >> well, what you see happening is the feds doubling down ton failure just as the european central bank and bank of japan are doing, which is why the global economy is in such trouble. punk economies lead to ugly politics and that's what we see today. >> this would be another bailout of what main street would have to pay for wall street. this is great for wall street. lousy for main street. >> i don't know if we know much

about it, but maybe you guys would be, maybe it would bring back and revitalize the credit union. >> i don't think so. >> we got to leave it at that, gang. thank you very much. not much to love about the stock market these days, but our informers say they have the informers say they have the stocks that at ally bank, no branches equals great rates. it's a fact. kind of like social media equals anti-social. hey guys, i want you to meet my fiancée, denise. hey. good to meet you dennis.

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from their peek nine months ago. i think they hit a bottom. >> bank profit rs going to get crushed next two quarter, so stay away. >> that's it. have a great valentine's day. here's eric. >> support trump and your brain dead as republicans gear up for the south carolina primary. the miainstream media attacking the donald and anyone who votes for him. like the new york daily news picturing trump as a clown and calling his supporters mindless zombies. calling him a racist, sexist demagogue, but is it the media's job to attack voters like this? welcome to the crew this week. i think voters might get offended by this. >> i act