spina i know it's hard not to interrupt. >> are you disappointed by the likely republican and democratic nominees? >> what difference at this point is a may? john: we have heard so much from the republicans and democrats. now it's time to hear from the libertarians. the three toppling presidential candidate debate here tonight. in our two-part libertarian presidential forum. and now, john stossel. [applause]

john: welcome to our libertarian forum. tonight is the first of two debates among the libertarian presidential candidates. given that the presidential front-runners, hillary clinton and donald trump have huge unfavorability ratings worse than any candidate in 30 years, it's time to hear from -- with us tonight are the three leading libertarian candidates and i say bleeding because they place first, second and third in polling conducted by the libertarian party. first former new mexico governor gary johnson and then tech entrepreneur, john mcafee, third libertarian republic founder austin petersen. candidates tonight's rules are simple. i or someone else will ask you a question and you get one minute to respond, 30 seconds for a follow-up response rate if you go over your time you will hear this. please don't go past your time. before we start the questions

each candidate has an opening statement to governor johnson since you were first in the early polls you start. >> well i am gary johnson and i would like everyone to know that i have a wonderful family. his son eric, daughter saeb granddaughter cora and fiancé best friend kate. kate and i share a passion for health and wellness and it's great to be in love and i'm in love. i have also been on to bend over my entire life. i was the kid that was throwing newspapers but in college i started a one-man handyman business and actually grew that business to employ over 1000 people. money for me, business for me has always represented freedom. i sold the business in 1999. nobody lost their jobs. the business went on to new heights. in business i learned some really valuable lessons. one is the magic of sharing in the process. the other is showing up on time,

keeping your word. it's amazing how the simple principles work. i got elected governor of new mexico. i've never been involved in politics before prior to getting elected governor of new mexico. new mexico is a state that is to have someone democrat. i promise to bring a commonsense business approach to state government. in that context i may have vetoed more legislation than the other 49 governors in the country combined. 750 feet does, thousands of them line item vetoes. i think it made a difference. i got elected by bigger margin the second time. i'm also an athlete and adventure. i've climbed the highest mountains on each of the seven continents, something that was the goal of mine and something that i have achieved. i'm hoping to ride the divide next summer if i'm not elected president. john: mr. mcafee.

>> libertarianism is grounded in the concept of liberty but that is liberty quite slippery means our bodies and our minds belong to ourselves is liberty is lost when governments decide what is right or wrong regarding what we may do with ourselves. every law that is try to restrict or limit personal freedoms and personal liberty has failed. governments and countries have from allies prostitution or homosexuality. legislate what ideas we may teach our children. they criminalize the subject of alcohol or other drugs and what is the result? our war on drugs has not diminished because the consumption of illegal drugs has nearly filled our prisons with nonviolent citizens and created the most powerful and brutal job cartel in the world. prohibition did not reduce the consumption of alcohol. it created suffering through punishment and gave lives to

organized crime. ideas like evolution but ideas have a life of their own and cannot be extinguished. liberty which is personal freedom cannot be restricted through laws. it can only be unjustly punished as it is expressed. giving rise to suffering throughout society. we are all libertarians on the stage and you are libertarians here. i'm hoping that this debate will make clear tonight the value of liberty in all things rate the fact that liberty is very existence depends on privacy and it's the foundation of a sane and prosperous society. john: mr. peterson. [applause] >> first off thank you john and thank you to fox business for hosting this forum but i was born in independence missouri. was raised in a horse farm a short drive from a town called

liberty. coincidence? i will let you be the judge. i learned about economic liberty when my parents sent me into the fields to play in the chrysanthemums and sell them to people in my small town. learn about personal liberty from those who taught me about the golden rule. i believe people are inherently good and they can be trusted with freedom and that freedom should be as expansive as possible. the role of government is to protect our liberty, not our security. that's what the 2nd amendment is for. i'm a grassroots candidate with a real national campaign. i have an army behind my back up and volunteering for me and financing me the entire way. i'm a fiscally conservative candidate for $0 campaign debt and i budgeted my funds in the same manner that i would govern. i'm proving that you can do more with less. i may be the youngest candidate in this race but i'm the oldest in libertarian years. i'm the anti-establishment candidate in this

anti-establishment party. i'm here to shake things up and inspire a generational liberty movement. i believe i'm the only candidate on the stage to inspire coalition of libertarians conservatives reasonable democrats and independents back to win. i'm pro-life, pro-constitution and pro-freedom. my plan is to take over the governments i can leave everyone alone. thank you. the revolution continues. [applause] john: on two questions. the main hits a year but libertarians are couple of things. the first is we are naïve or soft on terror. we don't understand the need to keep america safe. we are isolationists. governor johnson you said you would cut military spending. why would americans feel safe with u.s. president? >> there is a very real terrorist threat out there and to address that we need to cut off the funding but when it comes to military intervention i think our military interventions have made things worse. the fact that we put troops on

the ground in the fact that we drop alms and. john: flights kill thousands of innocent people making the situation much worse. also this really the capriciousness if you will of the executive to engage in these military interventions as opposed to involving congress. i would love to see a simplified mechanism for congress weighing in on our military intervention, something that i think is really cornerstone to our system of government let congress debate and discuss militarily intervening. john: mr. mcafee people say libertarians are isolationists. >> isolationists in terms of other nations. not at all. i think isolationism is taking on the role of world policing making us a separate entity from the rest of the world were -- we are the policeman and you are the people we police.

we are not isolationists at all. we are inclusive. our interference in the affairs of foreign states dropping bombs on families where mothers and fathers are killed our brothers and sisters. i would be angry to and you would be angry too. it's not isolationism to say we need to bring our chips home or that we need to stop interfering with the affairs of foreign nations. it's reality and practicality. john: mr. petersen. >> obviously terrorism is a threat but we have got to resist these politicians who are going to fear monger as an excuse to take away our liberties. we have got to stand up to people who use every tragedy as an excuse to take away our constitutional rights. albus and thomas jefferson had the islamic terrorist of his day and he managed to fight them constitutionally protected 9/11 congressman ron paul went to the congress and asked for letters of reprisal. congress should update these

letters. article i section 8 of the constitution would give us a powerful 225 basis in a way that doesn't involve invasion occupation and nation-building. no matter what they want to defend our national security we should only go to war with the decoration of war. the president should always obey the constituti and the fine commander-in-chief have promised to only go to work its constitutional and to obey the law. [applause] john: a quick answer please, when is a right to go to work? >> when attacked. >> my question is whether we have wore? john: people want to kill us. >> we are operating under the -- the war is -- john: when should congress, if we have a significant threat there are circumstances when the united states may go to war but we should only do so through due process. >> another thing we are criticized for, we are soft on

drugs. people think libertarian means libertine. some say libertarians encourage drug use. mr. mcafee you first. >> what is a drug? almost everyone in america joins out the hall. coffee is a drug. cigarettes or drugs. being soft on drugs what does that actually mean? i think what's happening now we have declared war and everything including drs. why? certain people prefer alcohol to marijuana or certain people prefer or wanted to heroin. what is the difference? to heroin addict addiction is its own punishment. is that being soft? no. you are responsible for the repercussions of your choices and if you are taking drugs you have to live with that. [applause] john: thank you candidates and viewers i thank you for your suggestions via social media. if more of you want to join the discussion follow me at twittered at john stossel and use the hashtag stossel for more

like my facebook page so you can post there. coming up questions about the size of government. what should we cut and more about war. when should we go to war? bad and much more when we return. [applause] you shouldn't have to go far

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[applause] john: welcome back to our libertarian presidential forum. on facebook lonnie post people say libertarians will cut the safety net, welfare programs to nonexistent so how would you address the welfare state and should be replaced? how is it not effective in what should happen? mr. petersen. >> i am attacking plan that would cut across-the-board. this is called bait cutting plan and this would put us on the path of a balanced budget. yes i do think we need to cut away some of the social safety nets that we should not do it overnight. my plan cuts 1 penny for every federal dollar across-the-board that if congress decides one program is too important such as medicare and medicaid they could make it an equal corresponding cut. also moves the budget -- balanced budget amendment to me to force congress to live with their me means.

18% of the total gdp, the american people have to balance their checkbook, so should congress that right now the gdp, debt-to-gdp ratio is 105%. force them to stay with them a lot no more than 18% of gdp cut the budget across-the-board. everybody takes a haircut. that's how we shrink government and nobody's going to be hurting. john: nobody is going to be hurting he says. people say libertarians are not going to take at the poor. >> having been governor of new mexico i can identify what i believe are those people that are truly in need and if there was a safety net i think that would be bad. i want to support those that are truly in need that we have gone way up the line when it comes to that. i think the biggest issue facing this country right now is the fact that government is too big. spends too much money and taxes too much. i would be proposing a balanced budget to congress which would be a 20% reduction in federal spending and to do that you've

got to include medicaid, medicare, military spending and to do that you would devolve medicaid and medicare to the states. in my heart of hearts as governor of new mexico is the federal government would have given me a medicaid and medicare with 20% less money i could have delivered health care. i could have administered or seen the administration 20% less money to deliver those services. when it comes to the military a 20% reduction in the military only goes back a handful of years. [applause] john: mr. mcafee would you cut the welfare programs for the poor? >> this is a complex issue. let's look at the social security. they have the largest drain on the federal budget at over $700 billion and get everyone on social security paid money that they worked hard to earn into a

system that the government promised would pay them back when they were older. [applause] that is a commitment that we made as a government and as libertarians do we not meet our commitments? it's an obligation. if the allegations that we are not meeting which are the problem. the veterans. we send young men and women off to war saying risk your life and your limb for your country and when you come back without limbs we are sorry. we will give you the lowest possible care. [applause] john's are nice thoughts but what specifically would you cut? agencies for example. >> the state is a great -- that everyone endeavors to live at the expense of everyone else. i would cut the mall. united states should not be charity. charity is given from the heart. we need to get back to that.

that is what made america great. we have to remove the role of charity and society. families friends neighbors churches and communities society. where is the love for one another? government doesn't love us. we need to go back to a system where people can take care of one another. the catholic church would love to step in and do charity but the government gets in the way and obamacare has destroyed our health care health care system. as president i would demand congress overturn the aca on day one. [applause] john: governor johnson do you agree? >> a couple of standup startup about. the department of congress promotes crony capitalism more than the department of congress. [applause] a person of education, here at the arguments. one of your ignorance is the federal government gives each state 11 cents out of every school dollar in every state spent by the comes with 15 cents worth of strings attached by the federal government says you have to do abc and d inheres 11 cents

to do that. the department of education was established after jimmy carter, not george washington. what is value-added about the department of education since carter did that? nothing. [applause] john: thank you gentlemen. coming up some uncomfortable personal questions for each candidate that first before we return a little bit about terry specifically, isis. [applause] you stay up. you listen. you laugh. you worry.

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[applause] john: we are back with the three leading libertarian presidential candidates. one thing democrats republicans and libertarians agree on is its government's job to protect us

from foreign threats. he people say libertarians won't make us safe. mr. mcafee as president what would you do about isis? >> that's an easy answer. i didn't get a chance to say which program. the fda serves a very limited purpose. [applause] what would i do about isis? isis it's a problem of intelligence gathering more than anything else. we have the capacity. is anybody doing terrorist acts inside of china or russia? they are so far ahead of us from a cybersecurity standpoint meaning intelligence gathering in the modern age. we should know well in advance before every terrorist attack on the planet and yet we do not. we do not or if we do we are not telling anybody. it's one of the greatest tragedies that we need new training. we need to make ourselves up to date. we are 20 years behind the chinese and russia.

john: that alone would protect us? >> i'm sorry? john: intelligence alone would protect us? >> let me give an example. we have the capacity using pattern recognition without having to listen to anybody's conversation or invade anybody's privacy to determine what a terror cell is. they have anonymous medications. leaders will take a different phone and throw it away every day. they use only outgoing phonecalls. when a terrorist attack is about to happen there is a flow through the chain of command. these things are easily identifiable in today's cyber science world rated so if we could protect them and prevent every terrorist attack would that not help us? >> the first of a would do is obey the constitution respect the fourth amendment right to american citizens. we can fight isis. they haven't attacked our own -- habitat for homeland such as

garland texas so they are sincere threat that if we obey the constitution and we follow the advice of the founders and we listen to congressman ron paul there are thousands of grizzled veterans that are just aching for an opportunity to do their country a favor. it would be more than happy to go over and take care of these people. i trust the constitution. i trust thomas jefferson did i trust the founders but i believe that if we follow the law we can protect ourselves and secure liberties at the same time. [applause] john: mr. johnson, governor johnson senator cruz said we should carpet bomb isis into oblivion. i don't know of sand can glow in the dark that we will find out. >> i think this is a problem, how we have addressed this problem. we have addressed these problems with bombs and not our brains. we need to cut off the funding to isis and we need to have congress declare war on isis. not that they haven't been the aggressor but where did al qaeda

go? well gee woodcut that had off and now have isis and went isis goes, something else is going to arise. we need to continue is happening in the middle east. the declaration of war from congress and let's cut off their funding. john: a quick answer from twitter. someone called hope asks what you and all foreign aid? >> again we have commitments as a u.s. government to a number of other foreign governments that do not involve policing and these commitments it made would have to keep, i'm sorry we do have allies and we do have enemies in this world. if you think we don't you should look at what china has been doing to us for the past year. 21 million records found in the office of personnel management. they broken to the pentagon, the fbi and homeland security. we are at war with china. this is a fundamental issue and we are simply not paying attention to it so we have to

keep our commitments to foreign nations at the same time went to stop policing the world. we have problems here at home. john: foreign aid mr. petersen. >> i do not believe in foreign aid and i woodcut every any of foreign aid. >> i don't like the term all, but foreign aid sounds like food and medicine when the reality is it's propping up foreign government, taking out -- giving the money to another. so theoretically guess we should cut off foreign aid. this is money we could be spending in our country as opposed to others. john: coming up abortion come again marriage, health care, helping poor people but next personal issues. her reason you may not want to vote for them. i will bring those up, next. [applause]

[applause] john: where are back but the first ever nationally televised libertarian presidential forum. i am a libertarian. i say and if you would make a -- that are present than our two-front runners. the audience agrees but there are a couple of things that make me wonder about each of you. governor johnson you have already run for president and you lost, badly. some people say you are too low key, to inspire people like you are stoned on marijuana. and in fact the analogy could high sometimes. i personally don't care but a lot of americans will.

would you say to the two points you are too low key and you admit using marijuana? >> i am one of 130 million people in that category. [applause] i haven't had a drink of alcohol and 29 years prayed i have always maintained that legalizing marijuana would lead to less overall substance abuse because people will find it such a safer alternative than all the other substances out there starting with alcohol. and with regard to getting beaten last time i want everybody to know i am a fierce competitor and yes we got the family got beat that laid but this go-round at the heart of this is the presidential debate commission. i'm suing the presidential debate commission. this is at the heart of it. [applause] the only way a third party will win is if they are in the presidential debate which is something that can happen 16% of the polls this election. [applause] john: mr. mcafee.

>> i have a hard time picking and choosing. john: when i googled you you sound a little flaky. police accused you of unlicensed drug manufacturing previewer person of interest in the murder of a neighbor. you left and went to blogger mullah. you are still technically a fugitive but they don't seem that interested in grabbing you. [applause] in america you are arrested for driving under the am floods of xanax. why should people trust you? >> let's look at the absolute facts. what are the chances of my survival if i were manufacturing illegal drugs in central america? [applause] if i were really doing that i would have a ready second half-life so that's issue one.

number two i was never charged with murder and i'm certainly not a fugitive from justice. that's an absolutely false statement and all that checks out on the web. i did escape to guatemala? why did i've problems? i was asked for 2 million-dollar donation to the ruling government. i said no. exactly one week later my property was rated by 42 arm shoulders who shot my daughter in front of my eyes. that was the problem i had with the police. [applause] john: the dui? >> the dui that's the stupidest thing i've ever done and i own up to it great. [applause] john: austin petersen here's my problem with you. you are 12 years old. you are not old enough. [laughter] >> i'm 35 so i'm constitutionally eligible.

[applause] on july 4, 1776 thomas jefferson was 33 years old preaching's medicine was 25 years old. the marquis day lafayette was 18 and alexander hamilton was 18. it was young man that founded this country and young people will restore it young leaders will take their country back. we will take our country back. it's the young people that are going to fight for it. [applause] john: back to issues. ford fischer synthesis video. small government republicans who are unhappy with republican candidates may have a clear reason to vote libertarian and how would you sell yourself as a libertarian nominee to disenfranchised immigrants voter's? john: governor johnson. >> disenfranchised democrat voters. the web site i said what they think everyone should get on that web site and take the questions and see who you parapet.

i have issues with the site that i took the test a couple weeks ago and i sided with myself 90% of the time. i think they have fixed that but amazingly the next person that i sided with was bernie sanders at 73% so the initial reaction was you got to be kidding and then the next reaction was i get it, i get it. on the civil liberties side come on the social side, and the military intervention side, you know what? i advocated for legalizing marijuana. i am the highest official to do that although bernie world not a bad idea but i'm glad that he is advocating for the same but there is a real connection. there is a real connection. >> i just want to say governor johnson has stated that it does side with social issues and we had a big kerfye full and a week because governor johnson estate he believes that baker should be forced to beg wedding cakes for people that they disagree with,

couples and this is a big bump. >> i think if you discriminate on the basis of religion i think that is a black hole. i think we should be able to discriminate if you stink or you're not wearing shoes but if we discriminate on the basis of religion, to me that's doing harm to the class of people. john: should they be required to bake a cake --. >> i think muslims in this country be banned by all sorts of businesses because it would be the popular thing to do. john: make the cake for the wedding. >> that would be my contention in the example i cited, the example i cited how about the utility, the utility that is privately-owned and because it's the only market that i have to buy my electricity they are going to cut me off for religious reasons.

john: mr. mcafee you get a chance to weigh in. >> if you are the only baker in town it may be a problem but no one is forcing you to buy anything or to choose one place over another. why should i be forced to do anything if i am not harming you. am i harm you by not selling you something? no it's my choice to sell in your choice to buy. john:. >> i vetoed hate crime in new mexico. prosecute me on the basis of the crime, not my intention. i think their religion is their religion is the black hole in that same category but if you are going to start discriminating against people because of religion you were going to find a whole class of people discriminated against and you may be included in that so it is harm to others. john: the fundamental lack of understanding the free market could you have to allow the marketplace to work to the government cannot stamp out bigotry.

the government is not supposed to make us into better people. the united states was founded so we could be whatever we wanted. i hate bigotry and i will stand outside of people store and encourage a boycott. i stand up or might rensin there a rights. everyone should be equal before the law but -- john: out of time time. coming up abortion, marriage, the death penalty and more. [applause] my school reunion's coming fast.

could be bad. could be a blast. can't find a single thing to wear. will they be looking at my hair?

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[applause] john: bareback with their libertarian presidential debate. mr. petersen lineage dishes of humana points and you are pro-life. he would have government ban abortion. >> the first thing i do is try to find every non-source of mishory injury can to end abortion and there are options. though the war on drugs would allow women to purchase birth control of the counts -- counter that congress writes the law. we should be morally pro-life that all humans deserve the same

right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness and we should find every opportunity to save lives. [applause] john: do you want to make any points on that? >> this is where austin and i disagree. i think a woman's right to her own body is one of the fundamental issues in this country. [applause] >> warm partly i do not think it's a federal government's job or the state governments job to interfere in this process. [applause] >> how can there be a decision more difficult than abortion and who should be making that decision other than the woman involved? no one. [applause] john: lightning round. do you support the death penalty? i was there with you john. >> it's a most barbaric thing imaginable. [applause] >> esola not. the government kills innocent people every year and we should put a stop to it. >> no i did not support the death penalty. john: marriage?

>> i'm at austin and a bar. [laughter] as long as you grant me the right to a heterosexual marriage then it you can marry whoever you please. >> i'm happy when anyone finds love picked a private contract, keep government out of it completely. [applause] >> as they do support marriage equality and when you say get government out of the completely what i came to find out if there are literally thousands of laws on the books and you would have to go through -- you would literally have to go through and change every single law supposed to just recognizing marriage equality you would not have to change a word in any of these laws. john: women are paid less than men to reach a government be involved in fixing that? >> first of all women should be paid the same as a man, equal pay equal work. john: should government shouldn't get involved in that? the devil is the details and

having beato this many pieces of legislation as i have i would find it hard-pressed to sign that legislation but i would keep an open mind to how that legislation got written. i will tell you the devil is in the details. john: should government intervene? >> people should be paid based on their talents and what they do and their poor dignity whether you are a man or a woman john: who decides, government or business? >> the employee decides. when there is one more than one business in the world, work for somebody else. >> the unfortunate truth is the reason there's this quote gender pay gap is because of women's choices. women fallout of the word were sprayed they have children. they don't work as long hours. when we look at economic data side-by-side the truth is the gender pay gap closes and now more women get more degrees than 35 years and younger those women are asked to make you more because more of women are going to college than men.

john: so should government force men to get into college? the government should stay out of it. john: last question. suppose none of you exists. you have a choice between voting for tom for clinton. who? >> i would choose nonexistent. [applause] >> i don't vote for people that i don't believe in. >> you are asking me to choose between a case of the measles and a bladder infection. i don't know, cannot do that. john: governor johnson. >> i would vote for the libertarian candidate. i would vote for a third party candidate if none of us were a peer. my first vote for libertarian candidate was against reagan in his second term. the lid off of spencer. john: that's the end of our first debate. the second half of this forum will air next friday. when we returned tonight

analysis of the debate so far from fox business. [applause]

[applause] john: we have heard from the candidates so what have we learned so far? was asked to smart libertarians.

kennedy host of her own show here on fox. and matt welch editor-in-chief of reason magazine. who do you like so far? [applause] >> i liked all three of them in different ways. john mcafee came out with a lot of energy. he is strange in a way that i appreciated. i think the fundamental thing that libertarian has the tension between a sense of purity someone who will represent division through a distilled in a sense of pragmatism who we think can sell it to people who they know what libertarian made so all three of them are different poles of that. kennedy: the monmouth university poll that shows gary johnson could be polling at 11% against trump with donald trump only having 34%. john: we hadn't mentioned that yet yet these are the recent polls where gary johnson 11% by 11% up against trump. kennedy: people are hammering

for third hardy paid the libertarian party has a ballot but i think all 50 states and i i think therefore people would be paying much more attention to these ideas. and the pragmatism. john: we have never seen two-front runners who are so hated. >> deservedly so. kennedy: if you have liberty back on the stage in these presidential debates it completely changes the race preview have the left-wing that is so frustrated with that government and if you have someone who can logically show that government is the cause of this frustration and fleming take -- limited limiting it will only get better. john: my producer is telling me you guys have some complaints about some of these answers. >> austin was all nervous and was giving the rand paul 1 penny line and sound like any other politician and 25% of his answers and john mcafee, what the hell happened there? the guy -- guatemala, i don't

know. so yeah gary johnson i think stumbles a little bit when he tries to explain exactly what his position is about nazi cakes and equal pay for equal work in a way that i think will rub some libertarian the runway. kennedy: john mcafee reminded me of the guy you are as talk with at a bonfire. what is liberty? you are running for president, what you tell me what i think austin has a lot of idealism and youth but he talks in a series of bumper stickers. that can be a little annoying. stanek this presidential race somehow is given us as democratic socialists of big government much more big government and barack obama democrat and trump. [laughter] so at some point limited

government there was a tea party movement. i swear to god it happened recently and elected a lot of people like rand followed other people who have a serious commitment to limited government. as it is on the left to people who want to get government out of the boardroom in the bedroom and the drug room and other rooms that john mcafee likes to hang out. kennedy: no one has been able to effectively create a coalition of those people thus far but we will see if there's a truly viable national libertarian candidate if they take people consider themselves to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal or socially awkward in the case of libertarians. i think that describes the majority of voters in this country. john: thank you kennedy, thank you matt. we have more debate coming up next friday, the second part of this debate trademark topics immigration privacy global warming plus questions from "fox news" folks like this obnoxious guy. >> here's my question for the libertarian geniuses.

john: bad and more questions from fox anchors next friday. see you next time. [applause] . >> i happen to think that the majority of people in this country are libertarian. they just don't know it. john: is that true? are you economically conservative and socially liberal? then you're a libertarian. >> it's the first nationally televised debate. john: in part one of our presidential forum, we heard these three libertarians debate. >> gay marriage. >> i met austin in a gay bar. [ laughter ] >> it was different from republican-democrat debates. libertarians focus on getting government out of the way. >> i didn't create a single job, government doesn't create jobs, the private sector does. >>