pence: there are criminal aliens in this country, tim, who have come into the country illegally perpetrating violence and taking lives. kaine: you want to use harsh words on mexicans. pence: good people, you keep leaving out that quote. if you want me to go there, i will go there. here is a choice on life, i couldn't be more proud to be standing with donald trump, who's standing for the right to life. it's a principle that senator kain and i'm gentle about this because i really do respect it. it's a principle that you embrace and i've appreciated the fact that you've supported the hyde amendment which bans the use of taxpayer funding for abortion. we can come together as a nation, we can create a culture of life. more and more young people are embracing life because we know we are -- we're better for it. like mother teresa said at that

famous national prayer breakfast, welcome the children into our world, there are so many families around the country who can't have children. kaine: but governor -- >> improve the options to families that can't have children to adopt readily. kaine: why don't you trust women to make this choice for themselves? we can encourage people to support life, of course we can. but why don't you trust women. why doesn't donald trump trust women to make this choice for themselves? that's what we ought to be doing in public life. living our lives faith or motivation with enthusiasm and excitement, convincing each other, dialoguing with each other with important moral, on the day. on fundamental issues of morality, we should let women make their own decisions. pence: because a society can be judged how it deals with the most vulnerable. aged, the infirm and the disabled, and the unborn. i believe it with all my heart. and i couldn't be more proud to be standing with a pro-life candidate in donald trump.

moderator: i have a final question, it has been the divisive campaign. senator kaine, if your ticket wins, what specifically are you going to do to unify the country and reassure the people who voted against you? kaine: that's a really important one. that may be the $64,000 question. it has been a divisive campaign, hillary is running a campaign about stronger together, and donald trump -- this is not directed at this man, except to the extent he can't defend donald trump. donald trump has run a campaign about one insult after the next. we have to bring the country together. here's what we'll do. hillary clinton was first lady and senator and secretary of state, and i served in the senate. i'm amaze as i talk to republican senators how well they regard and respect hillary clinton. she was on the armed services committee. on other committees. she worked across the aisle when she was first lady to get the chip program passed so that 8 million low income kids have

health insurance in the country. including 150,000 in indiana. she worked across the aisle after 9/11 to get health benefits for the first responders who bravely went into the towers and the pentagon. she worked to get benefits for tricare benefits for national guard members including hoosiers and virginians in the national guard. she has a track record of working across the aisle to make things happen. you know, elaine, i have the same track record, governor of virginia with two republican houses. in the senate, i have good working relationships across the aisle. i think it's fine to be a democrat or republican or independent. after election day, the goal is work together. hillary clinton has a track record of accomplishment across the aisle that will enable her to do just that when we work with a new congress in january. moderator: governor, how will you unify the country if you win? pence: thank you, elaine, and thank you for a great discussion. kaine: absolutely. pence: thank you, senator. this is a very challenging time

in the life of our nation. we can -- america's place in the world after the leadership of hillary clinton and barack obama and the world stage has been followed by an economy that is struggling, stifled by avalanche of more taxes, more regulation, obamacare, the war on coal and the kind of trade deals that have put american workers in the back seat. i think the best way we can bring people together is through change in washington, d.c. you know, i served in washington, d.c. for 12 years in the congress of the united states, and i served with many republicans and democrats, men and women of goodwill. the potential is there to really change the direction of this country, but it's going to take leadership to do it. the american people want to see our nation standing tall on the world stage again. they want to see us supporting our military, rebuilding our military, commanding the respect of the world and they

want to see the american economy off to the races again. they want to see an american comeback, and donald trump's entire career has been about building. it's going through hardship just like a business person does and finding a way through smarts and ingenuity and resilience to fight for it and when donald trump becomes president of the united states, we're going to have a stronger america. when you hear him say he wants to make america great again, when we do that, i truly do believe the american people are going to be standing taller. they're going to see that real change can happen after decades of just talking about it. when that happens, the american people are going to stand tall, stand together, and we'll have the unity that's been missing for way too long. moderator: gentlemen, thank you so much. this concludes the vice presidential debate. my thanks to the candidates, the commission and to you for watching. please tune in this sunday for the second presidential debate at washington university in st. louis, and the final debate

on october 19th at the university of nevada las vegas. from farmville, virginia, i'm elaine quijano of cbs news. good night. [applause] >> that wraps it up, everybody. i'm neil cavuto. as you can see, if the table was going to ease a lot of friction and a lot of angst between the two candidates as it has in the past, the table is more conducive to a calm and less argumentative discussion, these candidates put that issue to rest. it was anything but, it got pretty contentious, they were concise in answers but did save a lot of time pie talking over one another. the question is who won? too soon to say. questions about the role of the moderator in it. but i want to give you a good idea where we are in the spin room. and frank, my camera man has incredibly strong shoulders, but this is the scrum. this is the hoard of media reporters waiting for campaign

surrogates to come out of that stage and to talk to the press. this is also the point where they state their case, and who they think had a better performance. obviously, if you like senator kaine, you're going to come out and say he won. if you're a fan of governor pence, you're going to say he won. this is the room where they do it. i stress before, the focus seems to be on how the candidates have lower expectations and reminds how strong they are. both candidates with families, it's fair to say both comported heads of ticket very, very well. questions will be asked of the morator in interruptions. we'll get to that first with my friend and colleague lou dobbs. he and i were obviously watching this together. lou, your quick thoughts? >> my quick thoughts are this was in many ways a repetition of two against one. i thought the moderator was

overly deferential to one side and basically talked over herself, governor pence. i think we're going to hear a lot about the way the moderator conducted herself. i think we're going to hear a lot about the first hour of this in which the fact of the matter is, a democratic vice presidential nominee interrupted, interrupted and interrupted without, if you will, interruption. had a very hard time finding an equanimity for his aggressive performance and governor pence was, i think, overly constrained, but at the same time mannered. i believe that at the end senator kaine had a, without question, a better 15 minute closing than governor pence. and i think you're going to see a lot of discussion about the moderator. >> how these two did on this stage versus the guys at the

heads of the ticket last week? >> i think frankly they quoted themselves as combatants, not particularly well. i would have liked to have seen more substance and more follow-up from the moderator, not to put this on elaine quijano because she's a terrific person, but this was one sided and terribly misjudged. >> i counted at least eight interruptions of governor pence and maybe for points of clarification, not nearly as many except one near the end with senator kaine. it's going refuel arguments about lester holt seeming to focus on interruptions and clarifications from donald trump, not so much hillary clinton. >> the american voters are smart. they know most of the mainstream media is frankly in the tank, but we have never seen in a presidential election year this kind of obvious misjudgment and i think bad

comportment on the part of the moderators. this is worrying war in should be an aggressive, balanced moderator in an adversarial relationship to these people. >> i was wondering too, certainly have to give the creativity award to senator kaine for finding any and all ways to bring up the tax issue in any and all discussions, god bless him. it worked into vladimir putin, it worked into foreign relations, a host of other issues, did it not? >> without question, and as we know, one of the favorite things for all americans is tax policy. more they can get, the more they revel in it. >> right, right, right? >> it was a peculiar take for him. they think it's a winner or they wouldn't have done it. i don't think it overcame his really bad manners. >> bad manners from lou dobbs. loul be back with me later. thank you, sir. we're here in the scrum, and you never know who shows up in these situations, governor gilmore with us now. governor, how do you think it went?

>> i sat through the whole debate, and i think that when you take away all of tim kaine's rudeness and shrillness, just interrupting people, shouting down people, shouting down governor pence is no cogent argument for economic policy. when you take a look at the argument, what came through is this, hillary clinton and tim kaine are going to double down on a bad economy, not going to allow the economy to grow. >> you say a bad economy, it's better than it was, i'm paraphrasing the governor. senator kaine's mission was to say, again, echoing hillary clinton, don't let the republicans get away saying we're in a depression. we came out of one. how do you respond to that? >> i would say coming away from a complete recession, you must judge the recovery for what it is, and it isn't good enough, and that's why trump is beginning to carry ohio, is being paid attention to in pennsylvania and virginia

because people understand that hillary clinton and tim kaine aggressively tonight said they would not change this economy. they would keep it weak. they call for open borders. they made it very, very clear, not only amnesty but open borders, open borders for the united states if hillary clinton and tim kaine are elected. and finally on international relations, there's no question with what came through in this debate is that we are weaker and in more danger than we have been before, and frankly fairly proud of the situation. >> let me ask you about the role thrust for running mates, that is to speak often of the person at the top of your ticket and explain their positions. donald trump was criticized rightly or wrongly as having a poor faring in last week's debate. do you think governor pence helped him tonight? >> the american people have to decide whether you want class and dignity and knowledge and experience as vice president, or whether you want somebody that's going to shout everybody

else down. that really has been the problem. hillary clinton and tim kaine have basically said if you don't agree with us, we're going to talk over and you stop you from speaking, and naturally that was the issue of the commentator. and i think that the american people are -- >> lou dobbs, my colleague, mentioned that. she interrupted governor pence a lot more. she would argue that governor pence was going over and talking over when it was senator kaine's turn. senator is going to argue just the opposite. it was your feeling it was favoritism? >> definitely two against one in this debate just like the last debate, and i think the time has come to really change these debates. we just don't need to have this kind of press intervention in these kinds of debates. i don't want to talk to the american people about that. american people care whether they're going to have more growth and more opportunity and more jobs wlooshgs they're going to have a complete open border and lawless situation on

the immigration issue or whether we'll be made safe and secure in the world that is increasingly dangerous. >> what do you think of the format of this? i mentioned most of the vice presidential debates certainly since 2000, with the exception of one with joe biden and sarah palin, they are at a table. the discourse doesn't turn as nasty. what did you think? >> i don't think that matters. i think you can go at a lectern or table, if you're going to be rude and yell at people and shout people down, you can do it as tim kaine did, seated or from a lectern. >> he didn't yell so much as he interrupted. >> no, no, i don't agree with that. he has a higher pitched voice which allowed him to dominate the situation when unfair to do that. >> who won the debate? >> i think governor pence showed not only class and dignity. >> you might be shocked, the senator's people think he did?

>> the main thing is that the issues that governor pence wanted to emphasize with respect to law and order with, respect to growing economy, those came through, and i think the american people saw that. >> okay, thank you very much. by the way, reverend jesse jackson is here. thank you, governor, very, very much. reverend jackson, how are you? >> hold you up, you guys got knocked down tonight. >> w ahead of this game, reverend. >> governor, thank you so much. reverend jesse jackson. i guess you agree with it was a big victory for governor pence? >> governor kaine was more prepared and the time that pence seemed on the defenseless. second, he would not defend his president on the insults launched against mexicans or against african-americans, the birther. he chose -- even the taxes.

he chose to avoid defending his president. >> you're saying -- governor pence did? >> he avoided defending. >> why would he defend this president on those? governor pence wouldn't do that? >> because he was charged with those issues in the debate. >> governor pence wouldn't do anything to defend his president. certainly senator kaine? >> pay his taxes. >> were you surprised how many times that came up? >> i was not. it was the topic this week and, of course, taxes pay the bills of public service and one did not see -- the range of insults from mexicans to muslims to the president himself with no contrition, no sense of apology. >> the other side said deplorables, equal opportunity. >> no. >> that sums that up. more of what's going on.

this is the scrum, they're all coming in, going to make their pitch for their respective candidate. it is very, very crowded. much more crowd than it was, and you are seeing batches of groups representing each side and their interpretation of who won. way too soon to tell, but it is fair to say that this debate was more to the point and pointed than that presidential one. we will have more from virginia, right after this.

. >> when congressman pence was in congress here, was the chief cheerleader for the privatization of social security even after president bush stopped pushing for it. congressman pence kept pushing for it. we're going to stand up against

efforts to privatize social security and we'll look for ways to keep it solvent going forward, focusing primarily on the payroll tax camp. >> there they go again. all donald trump and i have said about social security is we're going to meet our obligations to our seniors, that's it. neil: all right, not exactly there you go again, but governor pence saying there they go again. welcome, everybody, i'm neil cavuto. back in the scrum, in this room where each side is going to try to pitch how they did in the spin room, and normally the rule of thumb is, as i said so many times, after the event, each side will make the argument their guy won. you might find this shocking, democratic surrogates say senator kaine won handily, and others who think governor pence one. what is clear is that the presence of a table on the debate stage which was made originally to try to keep

things orderly and with little interruption, that was the not the case tonight. it got fairly nasty on a couple of points here but there is already a sense they got into more issues quickly than was seen in the case of the presidential contest certainly a week ago. the read right now in austan goolsbee top economic adviser to president obama joins me in chicago. austan, a good deal of the back and forth especially on social security went to who is going to protect the institution as we know it? now, there seemed to be little discussion on the democratic side about curtailing its growth or fearing for its growth, something that governor pence raised. you crunched the numbers, you know entitlements, was either side realistic to you? >> well, you know, there were a couple of things going on there they couldn't quite understand. i mean first, i was surprised like you, everybody told us

this is going to be boring and these guys are the friendliest guys in the world. they came out, they were slapping each other from -- right from the beginning. neil: you're right, you're right. >> on the social security point, i was puzzled because what senator tim kaine said about mike pence's position was true. mike pence, mike pence's privatization plan was actually even more private account oriented than george bush's plan. but as you know, neil, privatization would not solve the issues facing social security. i thought the democrats were re-- neil: not to privatize the whole thing but offer young people the option of putting percentage of money in stocks. do you think that they each should have had an obligation, i'm not taking political sides

here to say the way it's going right now is not sustainable. we've got to do something. >> not really because, look, you could do either way or a combination of both. you could raise taxes and pay for the system that people expect they're going to get, or you could change the system and cut their benefits or do some combination of both, but it's not unrealistic for tim kaine to say i'm not going to cut the benefits and we're going to look at payroll tax side. that's not unrealistic. neil: what about finding a way, i know the marching orders for senator kaine to talk about donald trump and providing his taxes. you are savvy when it comes to financing, business, et cetera, do you think regardless whether donald trump should release his taxes that he should be vilified for losing a billion dollars or thereabouts in 1995, when companies lose that amount of money all the time or on the brink or in bankruptcy and come

back many, many times. if we applied that to the auto companies, they would have never been around. >> i think you're giving him too much credit. i think it's fair to criticize. i don't know if vilify is the right word, but, a -- neil: i think they were being vilified tonight. >> there's a major question this billion-dollar loss he reported are those actually his losses or did he find a way to take somebody else's losses and claim them as deductions for himself? to answer that we would need to see the tax returns. if that's what he did, it will be perfectly justified to vilify him. neil: i'm asking, it is odd, if you're talking about billion dollar list, if you apply it to list of companies that doesn't have donald trump in the name. we would never apply it to cisco or chambers lost 2

billion? >> in the case of steve jobs, general motors or john chambers, each of those people recognized their own failures. neil: and they all came back, they all came back, they all came back. >> donald trump never said yes, i failed. and he's blaming everyone else. neil: keep on a little longer with senator mark warner, democrat of virginia. austan goolsbee, real quickly your thoughts, senator. >> i think tim won the debate. mike pence did a good job, he was unable or unwilling -- neil: closer than last week's presidential one? >> probably closer than last week's presidential one. neil: could you picture either one of these being vice president? >> i could picture either one of them. neil: do you think it got nasty? >> after last week, this was not nasty. what you had, though, is mike pence and understandably not

being willing to answer some of the more outrageous things trump has said like nuclear proliferation is okay or all the comments about various groups of americans. he's unw

>> live from longwood university in virginia this is fox business network special coverage of the vice presidential debate. here is neil cavuto. neil: we are here in the spin room where they are still spinning the debate and here's something else i noticed. in the debate hall the candidates have left. this is like i am when i get invited to someone's house. i don't leave. i start ordering pay-per-view movies and start raiding the fridge. that's what's going on here. just thought governor pence, they are still mingling with the press and the people in the it is divided threes. pence surrogates were fans are

friends and senator kaine's surrogates fans and friends and are friends and our manger or student volunteers very similar to the layout at hofstra. i believe they had a lottery type system here for those who wanted to be the event to participate in it and go ahead and witness a little history. just because it was a table which normally allows people to rationally, calmly and very politely debate the issues of the day they said the hell with that and went at each other oftentimes saving a great deal of time by talking over one another. from a different vantage point a certain candidate and deed others pleading about this debate as it was going on. >> that was one of my assignments to keep track of donald trump's twitter account. it was relatively tame. candidates must have heard usa to leave the stage after

lingering for quite some time. you are right the story early on in this debate was the fact that they were so much crosstalk insomuch quite frankly interrupting one candidate or the other. here's one of many examples we pulled out. >> let me talk about this. isn't this a discussion? >> pence: let me interrupt you and finish my sentence if i can. the clinton foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state. she had a private server. >> kaine: i get to weigh in. >> moderator: senator please. >> kaine: governor pence doesn't think the world is going so well and he is going to say it's everybody's fault. >> that again was many examples but we did see a number of issues discussed and discussed at length. there were points scored on both sides certainly with donald

trump or tim kaine able to go after donald trump's taxes and do it on just about any occasion he could possibly bring it up a pence was able to pivot and talk about the economy and seem to do so effectively on a number of occasions and again do that at length. here's part of that economic discussion. >> kaine: hillary and i have a plan that's on the table. the term plan is a u. r. fired plan. >> pence: let me say i appreciated do you are hired and you were fired thing. i think you are running a lot of pre-deadlines. >> that was something that pence did a lot as well point out the fact that senator kaine was using as he said these preplanned lines and he put an emphasis on that. inms of the twitter reaction from the man himself you said we would be monitoring the twitter account and i don't want to disappoint you but it was really quite tame stuff. at the end of the debate mr. trump saying mike pence won

big and we should all be proud of mike. okay well there you go. for the most part what he did was he retreated and quoted what some fans were saying either bashing tim kaine or whatever the case may be. here's an example for you. this is someone else's words. not trump's buddy put it out there. kaine looks like an evil creek out of the that man movies. i'm not sure where to go with that but trump decided he would give it to us so there you go. neil: is very creative. thank you buddy very much. again still in the middle of the spin room where they are coming out and stating their case. one thing that is very clear anecdotally getting to read from a lot of folks is this whole debate seemed a lot tighter in terms of one, whatever then was the presidential debate last week. we are joined by congressman

montejano from the fine state of kansas, republican mayor. it's very good to have you. the tax issue kept coming up for donald trump again and again and creativity points for senator kaine for finding ways to wedge it in their that you have been among those saying you can get that out of the way by bringing those taxes up. >> folks don't care much about donald trump's taxes. they care about there on what you know is clinton and kaine will raise the men's trump and pencil lower them. that's what people are talking about. neil: is so late and someone leaks them out and we still don't know and it gets a going all over again. >> i think tim kaine would have found some reason to bhappy about something. what people cared about and what governor pence kept talking about tonight was about what matt

america a tax policy to get jobs back in the economy growing again. those are the things that matter to the people of kansas and all across ameri neil: i understand but do you think it is hurting donald trump that this issue whatever you say about losses in business and how works and people make money and they don't make money and they have good ears may have bad years but the fact that he is hiding something it distracts from all these things that the republicans want to --. >> i served on the benghazi committee. clinton's 33,000 e-mails from the american public. she remarks from golden -- oldman sacks. there's a long list of things that clinton has hidden from americans for years now. no next week when they are going at a donald trump just ignore the attacks and focus on the things that you just did? >> american cares about jobs and

keeping them safe in the trump penske team can do that. no as we continue doing this frank has the stronger shoulders and the world. the original idea was we would be here for five minutes and now looks like significantly longer. we have got mary k. henry. you are here. i thought you were in remote. very good to see you. >> i'm here with a homecare founder. no how do you guys think it went? >> we think that working people are not fooled that might pence could not defend all of the accusations that were made and that we know that's clinton and kaine are going to raise wages and decrease taxes for middle-class and trump pence is going to eliminate wages. no how are they going to eliminate wages? >> he said he wants to eliminate

the minimum wage. no if we have an open free market wage in all states you think that would be good? do you feel the same way? >> i do. no were you surprised regardless of your views on the subject that no one got into deficits are the debt or the fact that we as a nation are running out of money? >> while he talked about that. he talked about a plan that he would stored -- restore investment in the country. when you raise wages and people have more money. neil: you think you can do that by just hiking taxes on the rich? >> the private sector and the corporations have to pay their fair share of wages where companies are earning record profits and fast food workers can survive on $7.25 an hour. no you agree with this? >> i definitely agree. the wages are one of the things that are tearing us down because everything is going up besides the wages. they rented the groceries.

neil: you think all of the programs in the events that the democratic team wants to make can be done by hiking taxes on the wealthy and some of these other search taxes that total $1.5 trillion over the next year's? >> senator kaine laid out five things that i can't repeat but the first thing was raise wages, create good jobs and he talked about creating a fair tax system where the middle-class families get a break because there's so much pressure on them and corporations and the wealthy pay more than their fair share. neil: can i ask you this to both of you? what is a fair share? when we raise the tax to 39.6% that was a fair share that we have the surcharges were the affordable care act on the wealthy another 2% and now they are talking about raising it some more. what do you think the rich person should pay in taxes? >> i think what warren buffett has said makes a lot of sense.

the percentage of his income that he pays in taxes shouldn't be more than -- neil: is calling for a minimum of 30% of the top. is 39.6% and over 40% if you include all the others. do you think it should be 45? >> i know the effective tax. i think we should work it out as a nation. we have got to come together and raise wages and make the tax system work for office. neil: do you think everybody should pay taxes when we have 47% not paying any federal income taxes and maybe some for a very good reason but should everyone have skin in the game? >> everyone should have some skin in the game but it appears to me, and i'm just going by what trump said about not knowing the loopholes and not paying taxes. no did he do anything illegal? >> is complicated. neil: it's perfectly legal what

he did. you are defending that? >> absolutely. all the waiters falling on our shoulders and he gets to get away scott free. all the weight waiters falling on my shoulders. no i'm going to put you both down on maybes as donald trump. how about that? >> you can put us at no. neil: thank you very much. you are getting a different perspective from everybody to my friend and colleague lou dobbs. you covered these for so many years as well. the democrats think the democrats won in the republicans think the republicans to get one. lou: and we stand here shocked. neil: the back-and-forth about obligation and donald trump and his taxes but very little talk about the tax structure in this country and how so many, some for perfectly valid reasons i've gotten to the point where they don't pay any federal taxes. lou: the focus size becomes what new tax is going to be raised

and what is the right rates of taxation? no one wants to talk and i talk about it in both parties, they don't want to talk about what is the or. size of government. what is the efficiency level of government? how productive should government be? how productive should our congress and our senate the? how productive? we are looking at enormous, enormous institutional issues and systemic problems and by the way they are going to be ignored in this election as well in either one of the candidates where there has been great candor will be talking honestly about the level of taxation is appropriate just as you are talking with the representatives of the seiu and the republicans will have the same failings and the reality is we still have the government so large, so tremendous it cannot be managed by either party in its current dimension and scope.

neil: an issue near and dear to you border protection all of that, how was that addressed by the economy? lou: i thought they came in a rather weak lee, frankly and obviously the greater the voice and it is the voice of donald trump who has been candid about the wall, securing the border and controlling immigration in doing so in the interest of the nation and that's as far as the left is concerned the democratic party and the democratic ticket it's an nfl mutt to consider the national interest and the value of the judgment that's being made about who will enter this country. there are a huge number of people in this country who now based on this debate that has lasted since 2006 you say oh my gosh it's very insensitive of us to even think about not simply exceeding to the wishes of the illegal immigrant and doing whatever he or she wishes without consideration of our own values and in terms of the dash

one of the great contributions has been donald trump has put forward a candid debate on all of them. neil: emitted a subject of the debate. lou dobbs thank you very much. we will have more from virginia the vice presidential debate now done. you don't want to interpret our quick on line poll so we won't. we will say that this contest, the slug fest looks a lot closer than last week's presidential debate. too soon to judge who won or lost who lost that each articulated their position very strongly. whether they served their boss as well at the top of the ticket anyone can. i should preface as well from this fine stage that b's these number twos have high approval ratings than either of their respective heads of the ticket. just a reminder though you might think it's just the number twos when it comes to their approval ratings. they are actually the number ones. we will have more in debate central here in virgin

>> i was listening to the avalanche of insult coming from senator kaine a minute ago. >> hold on a second. it's my time senator. >> kaine: hillary clinton said something in the campaign trail the next day. she said you know what i shouldn't have said that. >> pence: now we are even. neil: that went well. welcome back. i know what you are saying. a lot of you and i was thinking too, the crew was feeling sorry for me.

we wanted to sit down hit her camera battery was dying. so much for that love and warmth they have been a great force in great force in the republican campaign as well in the chairman of the vice presidential campaign very good to see you. it was the slug fest and the two of them going at it was something we didn't see a lot of last week in the presidential debate. >> i thought the american people ready got a glimpse of the mic pence that you and i both know. i know you all have a personal relationship and he personal friend for years is this is the guy who not only is the hard for public service but truly deep on the issues. no he had to spend a lot of time defending donald trump.

and by the way senator kaine was doing the same with hillary clinton. was that trump on a lot of issues whether it's donald trump's comments and it was a distraction for governor pence? >> neil he has been an effective partner in this process in a fierce competitor a fierce competitor since the day to donald trump chose him and i think what really shows is the mic pence is one of the best decisions donald trump has ever made. no one of the things i know this too and this is just a gut level. , that these were very likeable gentleman sitting down. you could argue you don't like this one. >> one of them came across as very likeable. neil: i think i know who you are talking about but my point was they each had passion about their position but there was none of the attention that there was between hillary clinton and donald trump.

>> i don't know if you misinterpreted or not. i was focused on the messages in the policies that governor pence drove home and i thought he was effective in tying back was a complicated situation which is just how dangerous this world is whether china building naval bases in the south china sea or iran pursuing nuclear power or the north koreans testing nukes. no what i got a sense of neck is what would a vice president or president trump due to address its? >> but let me come back to this. americans inherently know that it's a dangerous world right now. what i thought he was so effective in doing tonight is tying it back to the fact that hillary went in was the architect of the failed foreign-policy of the obama administration. arise, rule and the rain of isis. the iranians who are literally affect the way bribing the american government for hostages putting our soldiers on their

knees taking pictures of them and releasing the photos to the press. north korea testing nukes. it's all in defiance because they sense a week and fact was american leadership in the effective things, months before an election that i thought governor pence did so well tonight was tied back to the fact that this wasn't just obama's bad decision-making. hillary clinton was literally the architect of the foreign-policy that is now unraveling on the world stage and then you look in an issue like law enforcement, something that tugs at the heartstrings of every american as these these tragedies play out and communities. what you saw tonight is tim kaine come loaded with divisive rhetoric ready to blame law enforcement to suggest systemic vias and racism in the system. neil: there can be problems in any industry. >> of course there are problems with what the governor did so well tonight was the way we resolve these issues is about bringing everyone together and

overwhelmingly the american people know that our law enforcement community is a law enforcement community that is for good. there is not systemic racism and bias. no i know that books -- both spoke pass each other a lot. i'm sure you don't cling to one versus the other but for some reason there was a pattern, that after the clinton debate we have seen her solidified her position. depending on the polls she is up by six to eight points. pennsylvania, she is built on her lead. do you worry that this thing could be slipping away unless donald trump rally brings his a game? >> ibra prediction to make which is i think this race will reset. at least one more time before election day and maybe two or three more times.

neil: every week it's been like that. >> that is absolutely the case but the four weeks prior to that what was consistently showing was the trend lines were really bad for hillary clinton campaign and they were very good for the. i think tonight you will see a reset in the race. i think governor pence is performance will generate momentum. neil: some said governor pence may have arrested a slight tonight. >> it's without question that his performance will generate momentum and to the american people it will be clear that hillary clinton and tim kaine want to continue to divide us. they have no policies he was championing tonight. he was focused on divisive rhetoric and personal insults and attacks and i'm almost certain historically senator kaine has been a very effective

debater. i have watched all of his debates. neil: these two were much better at keeping the issues and concise cogent arguments than their counterparts were. that's not disparaging either. but let me ask you about how this plays out now. is it your sense that governor pence at least and you touched on that, has reminded donald trump of the importance of study , the importance of really getting up to speed on this. i know he has studied for debates in the past and he's very serious about this stuff but he was sending a message as well,. >> i know he was thrilled with mike's performance tonight as we heard from him. they were obsolete thrilled and proud of his performance. think it's without question that tonight's performance in the debate will absolutely -- here's

the thing about donald trump. he likes to win and i believe he will be very focused on winning the next two debates. neil: i thank you very very much. i have republican national committee guy who like this fellow doesn't get much sleep that this guy is a lot younger than i remember. either that or i'm getting a lot older. >> i will take the younger. neil: we have a lot more coming up. it's too early to tell but one thing that is coming through again and again in interview after interview, if you like spicy aggressive debates they get to the point even though it might not be your point this was more in keeping with that than what we saw last week out of the presidential candidates. we will have more after this.

>> i appreciate the you are hired, you were fired thing. you have use of a use of a whole at and you running mate has used a lot of pre-done lines. what you just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits and more death and more government and if you think that is all working then you look at the other side of the table.

neil: is something i caught the vice presidential candidate comment looking in the camera talking directly to you. it may just be a cosmetic detail that didn't work wax sean spicer probably feels it does the rnc can occasion's director. he's close to being jerry lewis at the end of the telethon. sean is very good to see you. >> it's all makeup. neil: on the text make -- technique of look into the camera ronald reagan did that a lot. he quoted ronald reagan a lot. yet some of ronald reagan's mannerisms. did that help what one person said had been a slight to the republican ticket and maybe donald trump's performance and maybe your candidate arrested that tonight? >> let's take it back to the single greatest choice of presidential candidate makes as their vice presidential candidate nominee running mate will be. it says a lot about who they

chose, the kind of decisions they will make an -- neil: as you were saying that governor mike pence leaving now. they are like me at a party come the last guest to leave. >> they have a lot of people that want to congratulate them. tonight if you wonder were kind of administration donald trump is going to have tonight would be the day. my kids up oriented, strong and confident. those are the kinds of people that donald trump will surround himself with when he gets into the white house. on the debate itself look, i can't see where there was the style you were bringing up the approach or the substance for the solutions he brought tonight. tim kaine came into this thing think he gave her some one liners around. mike transport a stop to that throw quiken said we are in a substandard debate in a schooled him on issue after issue. neil: you may be stunned to leave right away as governor pence leads the facility tonight that the democrats thought their

guy won. i don't know if you agree with this. i found them both to be likeable people. i found them both to the earnest from your bootstraps. they didn't come from a lot of money and look at them now kind of thing. i think that was certainly more as an inviting type of a venue than what the presidential debate was. >> that's part of the reason they were equally chosen because of their mannerisms and electability. but look tonight was less of a personality contest i will give you that but it was a substandard contest in cane through the one-liners around. neil: would he think about the number of times they brought up the tax thing? >> again that's what they were hers. k we can come up with 10 lines and repeat them over and over and pence wouldn't have it. we are going to have a substandard discussion and kaine was not prepared for that.

nick: you think donald trump

after a performance like tonight neil: it was a fun and engaging thing. >> i think if you are looking for, if you were on the fence i think you fell on our side tonight after watching mike pence. neil: this is going to surprise you but the democrats that if you were on the fence you are going to go -- isn't that so? >> that is so. neil: my buddy connell mcshane >> nael i was giving senator scott a hard time. a sign without a name on it. what did you think tonight? you may think that governor pence did well but would you think he did well? >> e-mailed the question. i chuckled to myself when i tried to bring president bush by not renegotiating a status of

forces negotiation. we did leave the force of 10,000 people there.ve isis and the reset with russia. he was very thoughtful and methodical in talking about the economy that is reflected in a lot of the polling that shows people on both sides are saying he's right. >> on the russia questioned economic question and on social media that was getting a lot of attention and a lot of the re-tweeted comments came during a discussion. we are awaiting another presidential debate in st. louis but is there something we can take away that donald trump can emulate? >> you and i talked about the fact that there are singles and doubles, no home runs and no mistakes in donald trump missed a lot of it easy softball reports back. i think he should sit and room and watch governor pence and watch them debate and look where the transition point is. address the question and don't over answer like he tried to do over explain every little single

thing that say what he wants to say about what his beliefs are and i think you will do very well. >> nail back over to you. no connell thank you very much and senator thank you. we have a lot more reaction coming. kellyanne conway the trump campaign manager will be joining us. as a lot of folks are saying hey i can't believe i was watching a vice president of debate, found a really reverting. these are the number two guys that they will be -- that's pretty high praise. more from virginia right after this.

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whenever you need them. great, that's what i said. so your business can get back to business. sounds like my ride's ready. don't get stuck on hold. reach an expert fast. comcast business. built for business. neil: all right gone are the days that kellyanne conway and

donald trump's campaign manager ken ghani where she would want and people wouldn't bother. now she is everywhere in crews are literally pulling at her. kellyanne conway give very much. how do you think you went? >> it was a spectacular night from governor pence. i think you see tonight why donald trump selected him to be the running mate. the selection of your running mate is the first decision you make as the presidential nominee and it shows donald trump's leadership and judgment in that regard. i appreciated the fact that governor pence was very tough tonight in very polite and did not have all these unhinged interruptions. neil: you would interrupt but what was the deal with that? >> really i'm perplexed. the moderator was very good but she was interrupted by senator kaine.

i don't think i was her fault. think you is being very impolite to a female. neil: so that's interesting story you raising the female card? >> only because they love to play a 24/7 and a hillary clinton world but it's a serious point that viewers out there neil they deserve a conversation on the issue. they expect to hear each person talking and giving his response and tim kaine was constantly interrupting. i thought it detracted from the conversation. i was proud of governor pence for trying to bring it back to the actual issues. neil: do you think kellyanne looking at this that if you were to advise donald trump that there might be great guy you come looking that governor pence's performance tonight and maybe study more, having tight clear answers? to your point there's a great deal of over talking but that will serve donald trump well if he does that in the next debate. >> he was really proud of his running mate tonight.

i talked to him personally and he spoke to governor pratt -- governor pence. they are two very different people and two very different people who share the same message. neil: would you agree that donald trump could have been prepared more or tightened his argument a little bit more and do more ported poorly did in the first 20 minutes of the debate? >> the vacuum that the created but there are many issues that he will give them the town hall format. m is he looking forward to the town hall format? you don't have control of the crowd that you have it any say about who is in the audience? >> we have we have been talking to gallup about how they -- undecided voters. at town hall is a natural habitat for donald trump.

just today in arizona donald trump had thousands and thousands of people there. yesterday people showed up. they got in line yesterday morning and it was quite remarkable for someone to command that type of crowd when you don't play an instrument or you're not singing. neil: she has gotten better at those kinds of formats. >> i'm not raising expectations. i'm saying that donald trump is a brilliant businessman and he obviously loves the country not to make the sacrifices and he knows the issues. i think in the first debate he was overly gracious to her and got no credit for it. neil: do you think you will be as gracious? >> to realize he scored no points by naysayers and critics in being so respect up the her. no will he entertain a nuclear option that if he is going to go there she will go there?

>> she has been there are ready. all they do is throw insults at donald trump and try to make everybody held to account for something he made six years ago. mike pence have a great night, didn't he? neil: they bring up issues that donald trump said months ago or sometimes just weeks ago. >> speaking of just weeks ago we have seen hillary clinton refer to 10 million hard-working good americans that may not want to vote for her as irredeemable and deplorable and on top of that a similar situation with donors in the fund-raiser. neil: are you surprised? >> i think this is the year that voters if they have proven nothing else as they will not be told how to think in who to vote for and what's important to them. the rise of donald trump and the

rise of bernie sanders on the democratic side shows you voters are doing their own thing. i think donald trump is a natural communicator taking his message to the people through the noise. neil: he was very effective yesterday in his speech explaining how capitalism works and there is nothing illegal going on but would it behoove him to just get these facts out improve it? >> we are looking at one page from a couple of days from 1995. he got a 900 million-dollar loss. neil: do you know whether or not he paid taxes for the next 20 years? would it not be illegal if he didn't? >> it would not be illegal. "the new york times" had a story this morning meal that said 1/2 million americans have done the same thing in the same year 1995 and that's a provision that has been around since 1918.

i can remember president barack obama and his democratic league chosen house and senate saying you know what our first priority should be? that's the great in determination of entrepreneurial america. we reward people who are willing to stick with it in take those losses and carry them forward. you know darned well that donald trump made a profit and pay taxes on those profits. i am being photo bombs. this guy interrupts like tim kaine. >> that's a good line. neil: thank you both very much. >> he works harder than anyone on tv. neil: this is sean hannity. he's just looking around for someone. thank you very much. i know you have got to fly out

of here. one of the things i want to bring up you get a sense of the room and sean hannity is here and all these power players you riddle -- literally have a who's who of people continuing to push their views that their candidates won. of course that is in the eye that the holder but it's fair to say if you are in the trump campaign in looking to stabilize things right now governor mike pence might have been able to do that. congressman dennis kucinich tweeting us right now. anthony scaramucci as well. we have also got the cochair and adam schipper and all those people. in the meantime i've got to get a sense right now from you congressman kucinich page talk about getting the message out and whether you agree or disagree with the message he was more effective in getting it out tonight? >> i think it's in a draw. what was different though is that my pence had eye contact

with the audience constantly and that's something that tim kaine missed an opportunity. the other thing is that mike pence looked at tim kaine and tim kaine and kaine often looked away from him. people notice those kinds of things. the interruptions that kaine made i thought detracted from his ability to get a message across about what hillary clinton stands for and i think in that way it didn't help the campaign out much. when all is said and done i think we are looking at both candidates as the running mates of the principles. neil: i had it explained to me something like this, whatever slight the trump campaign was experiencing, too early to tell, governor pence interrupted that or slow death or maybe even stop it. what do you think? >> it definitely helps. i sort of felt bad for senator kaine for a moment because it looked like a wild-card game

where the flyball came to him in the final hour and he dropped the ball and now the game is running and it looks like he has a win on them. i thought it was thusly terrible. i'm not saying that because i'm a trump surrogate and all that stuff. it was the petulance of the camera. we both know on television a lot of television is visual and i watch it here in detroit and i could not believe his facial expressions. the condensation -- and it dawned on him i've been crushed by this guy and you could see -- neil: that is your opinion. we don't know when we will see. make up from your perspective here do you think this sends a reminder to donald trump who is actually a skilled debater and he took away the entire republican who's who and he got the nomination that there is

value and prepping or maybe over prepping? governor pence is famous for doggedly doing the books that there might be a lesson for mr. trump? >> pence is a yen to donald trump yang. neil: that doesn't mean he doesn't need to practice. >> he is a politician. he will be better prepared going into the debate in st. louis. i attended the first vice presidential debate between dole and mondale in houston texas. in 1996, 76. neil: oh the first one. >> it was a historic debate in tonight's debate was very traditional. it was riveting as you said and i really think pants came across as reassuring and kind of had

this doctor's bedside manner. he was almost at times talking to kaine like he was a rebellious teenager. kaine interrupted him 64 times. neil: is that right? b we had a campaign staffer counting and the moderator interrupted once. neil: kellyanne was just saying as a woman she found that offensive. >> being interrupted? neil: and interrupting the way she did and the way she interrupted with it. >> i found it offensive and i also found that she didn't interrupt cane. she interrupted pants and once again i call this the left-wing media mafia and it's well deserved when we see moderators not staying in bias. neil: is up to the candidates and its perception. >> well it is the right of about pence's he didn't take the bait. he rose above it and stood on ground.

neil: all right. we will grade this and look at all these binaries later on but i did find them, i enjoyed this debate more than i did the presidential one taking nothing away from the presidential candidates but this just kept moving and moving. what do you think? >> was very fast pace from the start to look at some of the headlines at the headlines that are arctic crossing some of the country's major news sites. the "washington post" have been talking about this is the headline that pence kaine traded sharp words. the hill, or "the wall street journal" rather saying kaine grove pens on trump's taxes then of course "politico" and they are saying, they're big headline is kaine struggles on trumps scandals on pence. neil: that seems to be a -- for the media.

>> i would not disagree with you there but i've got to point this out because florida was 29 electoral votes is a swing state. look what's on the front page of the "miami herald". this is key. it's a hurricane. florida prepares for hurricane matthew. if you go to their web site you can barely find coverage of the debate. neil: that's a very good point. dennis kucinich i'm wondering you have to connect on an emotional level in these things. any message for the presidential candidates as they get ready for two more debates and how they have to comport themselves? >> i think that people are looking for presidential candidates to embody a steadiness, a steal inés, and abilities to be temperate. they're looking for that and they are also looking for a compact explanation of what they do when they are president. i think both candidates still

have to prove something with respect to that. we all know where the deficits are with both candidates but what we need to know is can the candidates explained directly to the american people what they are going to do specifically and do it in a way without degrading the other candidate? neil: they have run out of time to do that but you are quite right on that. anthony you are big and money raising and what this helped donald trump tonight? >> it's going to help at the money raising neil picked up after the last presidential debate. we raised $18 million and we have created a tremendous amount of momentum. one other thing about governor pence, he's a phenomenal money raiser. neil: there is that. make a you are noticing that the last event. >> absolutely even though we didn't get a bump in the polls we got a bump in fund-raising.

neil: guys i want to thank you all and thanks to my mic through here. they have worked their high knees off. the fact of the matter is this is to debates down to debates down to more debates down two

>> live from longwood university in virginia this is fox business network special coverage of the vice presidential debate. here is neil cavuto. neil: we are here in the spin room where they are still spinning the debate and here's something else i noticed. in the debate hall theleft. this is like i am when i get invited to someone's house. i don't leave. i start ordering pay-per-view movies and start raiding the fridge. that's what's going on here. just thought governor pence, they are still mingling with the press and the people in the room. it is divided three ways. pence surrogates were fans are friends and senator kaine's surrogates fans and friends and are friends and our manger or student volunteers very similar to the layout at hofstra. i believe they had a lottery type system here for those who wanted to be the event to participate in it and go ahead and witness a little history. just because it was a table

which normally allows people to rationally, calmly and very politely debate the issues of the day they said the hell with that and went at each other oftentimes saving a great deal of time by talking over one another. from a different vantage point a certain candidate and deed others pleading about this debate as it was going on. >> that was one of my assignments to keep track of donald trump's twitter account. it was relatively tame. candidates must have heard usa to leave the stage after lingering for quite some time. you are right the story early on in this debate was the fact that they were so much crosstalk insomuch quite frankly interrupting one candidate or the other. here's one of many examples we pulled out. >> let me talk about this. isn't this a discussion?

>> pence: let me interrupt you and finish my sentence if i can. the clinton foundation accepted foreign contributions from foreign governments and foreign donors while she was secretary of state. she had a private server. >> kaine: i get to weigh in. >> moderator: senator please. >> kaine: governor pence doesn't think the world is going so well and he is going to say it's everybody's fault. >> that again was many examples but we did see a number of issues discussed and discussed at length. there were points scored on both sides certainly with donald trump or tim kaine able to go after donald trump's taxes and do it on just about any occasion he could possibly bring it up a pence was able to pivot and talk about the economy and seem to do so effectively on a number of occasions and again do that at length. here's part of that economic discussion. >> kaine: hillary and i have a

plan that's on the table. the term plan is a u. r. fired plan. >> pence: let me say i appreciated do you are hired and you were fired thing. i think you are running a lot of pre-deadlines. >> that was something that pence did a lot as well point out the fact that senator kaine was using as he said these preplanned lines and he put an emphasis on that. in terms of the twitter reaction from the man himself you said we would be monitoring the twitter account and i don't want to disappoint you but it was really quite tame stuff. at the end of the debate mr. trump saying mike pence won big and we should all be proud of mike. okay well there you go. for the most part what he did was he retreated and quoted what some fans were saying either bashing tim kaine or whatever the case may be. here's an example for you. this is someone else's words. not trump's buddy put it out there. kaine looks like an evil creek out of the that man movies.

i'm not sure where to go with that but trump decided he would give it to us so there you go. neil: is very creative. thank you buddy very much. again still in the middle of the spin room where they are coming out and stating their case. one thing that is very clear anecdotally getting to read from a lot of folks is this whole debate seemed a lot tighter in terms of one, whatever then was the presidential debate last week. we are joined by congressman montejano from the fine state of kansas, republican mayor. it's very good to have you. the tax issue kept coming up for donald trump again and again and creativity points for senator kaine for finding ways to wedge it in their that you have been among those saying you can get that out of the way by bringing those taxes up.

>> folks don't care much about donald trump's taxes. they care about there on what you know is clinton and kaine will raise the men's trump and pencil lower them. that's what people are talking about. neil: is so late and someone leaks them out and we still don't know and it gets a going all over again. >> i think tim kaine would have found some reason to be unhappy about something. what people cared about and what governor pence kept talking about tonight was about what matters about people across america a tax policy to get jobs back in the economy growing again. those are the things that matter to the people of kansas and all across america. neil: i understand but do you think it is hurting donald trump thathis issue whatever you say about losses in business and how

works and people make money and they don't make money and they have good ears may have bad years but the fact that he is hiding something it distracts from all these things that the republicans want to --. >> i served on the benghazi committee. clinton's 33,000 e-mails from the american public. she remarks from golden -- oldman sacks. there's a long list of things that clinton has hidden from americans for years now. no next week when they are going at a donald trump just ignore the attacks and focus on the things that you just did? >> american cares about jobs and keeping them safe in the trump penske team can do that. no as we continue doing this frank has the stronger shoulders and the world. the original idea was we would be here for five minutes and now looks like significantly longer. we have got mary k. henry.

you are here. i thought you were in remote. very good to see you. >> i'm here with a homecare founder. no how do you guys think it went? >> we think that working people are not fooled that might pence could not defend all of the accusations that were made and that we know that's clinton and kaine are going to raise wages and decrease taxes for middle-class and trump pence is going to eliminate wages. no how are they going to eliminate wages? >> he said he wants to eliminate the minimum wage. no if we have an open free market wage in all states you think that would be good? do you feel the same way? >> i do. no were you surprised regardless of your views on the subject that no one got into deficits are the debt or the fact that we as a nation are running out of money? >> while he talked about that.

he talked about a plan that he would stored -- restore investment in the country. when you raise wages and people have more money. neil: you think you can do that by just hiking taxes on the rich? >> the private sector and the corporations have to pay their fair share of wages where companies are earning record profits and fast food workers can survive on $7.25 an hour. no you agree with this? >> i definitely agree. the wages are one of the things that are tearing us down because everything is going up besides the wages. they rented the groceries. neil: you think all of the programs in the events that the democratic team wants to make can be done by hiking taxes on the wealthy and some of these other search taxes that total $1.5 trillion over the next year's? >> senator kaine laid out five things that i can't repeat but the first thing was raise wages,

create good jobs and he talked about creating a fair tax system where the middle-class families get a break because there's so much pressure on them and corporations and the wealthy pay more than their fair share. neil: can i ask you this to both of you? what is a fair share? when we raise the tax to 39.6% that was a fair share that we have the surcharges were the affordable care act on the wealthy another 2% and now they are talking about raising it some more. what do you think the rich person should pay in taxes? >> i think what warren buffett has said makes a lot of sense. the percentage of his income that he pays in taxes shouldn't be more than -- neil: is calling for a minimum of 30% of the top. is 39.6% and over 40% if you include all the others. do you think it should be 45? >> i know the effective tax. i think we should work it out

as a nation. we have got to come together and raise wages and make the tax system work for office. neil: do you think everybody should pay taxes when we have 47% not paying any federal income taxes and maybe some for a very good reason but should everyone have skin in the game? >> everyone should have some skin in the game but it appears to me, and i'm just going by what trump said about not knowing the loopholes and not paying taxes. no did he do anything illegal? >> is complicated. neil: it's perfectly legal what he did. you are defending that? >> absolutely. all the waiters falling on our shoulders and he gets to get away scott free. all the weight waiters falling on my shoulders. no i'm going to put you both down on maybes as donald trump. how about that? >> you can put us at no.

neil: thank you very much. you are getting a different perspective from everybody to my friend and colleague lou dobbs. you covered these for so many years as well. the democrats think the democrats won in the republicans think the republicans to get one. lou: and we stand here shocked. neil: the back-and-forth about obligation and donald trump and his taxes but very little talk about the tax structure in this country and how so many, some for perfectly valid reasons i've gotten to the point where they don't pay any federal taxes. lou: the focus size becomes what new tax is going to be raised and what is the right rates of taxation? no one wants to talk and i talk about it in both parties, they don't want to talk about what is the or. size of government. what is the efficiency level of government? how productive should government be? how productive should our congress and our senate the?

how productive? we are looking at enormous, enormous institutional issues and systemic problems and by the way they are going to be ignored in this election as well in either one of the candidates where there has been great candor will be talking honestly about the level of taxation is appropriate just as you are talking with the representatives of the seiu and the republicans will have the same failings and the reality is we still have the government so large, so tremendous it cannot be managed by either party in its current dimension and scope. neil: an issue near and dear to you border protection all of that, how was that addressed by the economy? lou: i thought they came in a rather weak lee, frankly and obviously the greater the voice and it is the voice of donald trump who has been candid about the wall, securing the border and controlling immigration in doing so in the interest of the

nation and that's as far as the left is concerned the democratic party and the democratic ticket it's an nfl mutt to consider the national interest and the value of the judgment that's being made about who will enter this country. there are a huge number of people in this country who now based on this debate that has lasted since 2006 you say oh my gosh it's very insensitive of us to even think about not simply exceeding to the wishes of the illegal immigrant and doing whatever he or she wishes without consideration of our own values and in terms of the dash one of the great contributions has been donald trump has put forward a candid debate on all of them. neil: emitted a subject of the debate. lou dobbs thank you very much. we will have more from virginia the vice presidential debate now done. you don't want to interpret our quick on line poll so we won't.

we will say that this contest, the slug fest looks a lot closer than last week's presidential debate. too soon to judge who won or lost who lost that each articulated their position very strongly. whether they served their boss as well at the top of the ticket anyone can. i should preface as well from this fine stage that b's these number twos have high approval ratings than either of their respective heads of the ticket. just a reminder though you might think it's just the number twos when it comes to their approval ratings. they are actually the number ones. we will have more in debate we will have more in debate central here in virgin

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>> i was listening to the avalanche of insult coming from senator kaine a minute ago. >> hold on a second. it's my time senator. >> kaine: hillary clinton said something in the campaign trail the next day. she said you know what i shouldn't have said that. >> pence: now we are even. neil: that went well. welcome back. i know what you are saying. a lot of you and i was thinking too, the crew was feeling sorry for me. we wanted to sit down hit her camera battery was dying. so much for that love and warmth they have been a great force in great force in the republican campaign as well in the chairman of the vice presidential campaign very good to see you.

it was the slug fest and the two of them going at it was something we didn't see a lot of last week in the presidential debate. >> i thought the american people ready got a glimpse of the mic pence that you and i both know. i know you all have a personal relationship and he personal friend for years is this is the guy who not only is the hard for public service but truly deep on the issues. no he had to spend a lot of time defending donald trump. and by the way senator kaine was doing the same with hillary clinton. was that trump on a lot of issues whether it's donald trump's comments and it was a distraction for governor pence? >> neil he has been an effective partner in this process in a fierce competitor a fierce

competitor since the day to donald trump chose him and i think what really shows is the mic pence is one of the best decisions donald trump has ever made. no one of the things i know this too and this is just a gut level. , that these were very likeable gentleman sitting down. you could argue you don't like this one. >> one of them came across as very likeable. neil: i think i know who you are talking about but my point was they each had passion about their position but there was none of the attention that there was between hillary clinton and donald trump. >> i don't know if you misinterpreted or not. i was focused on the messages in the policies that governor pence drove home and i thought he was effective in tying back was a complicated situation which is just how dangerous this world is whether china building naval bases in the south china sea or iran pursuing nuclear power or

the north koreans testing nukes. no what i got a sense of neck is what would a vice president or president trump due to address its? >> but let me come back to this. americans inherently know that it's a dangerous world right now. what i thought he was so effective in doing tonight is tying it back to the fact that hillary went in was the architect of the failed foreign-policy of the obama administration. arise, rule and the rain of isis. the iranians who are literally affect the way bribing the american government for hostages putting our soldiers on their knees taking pictures of them and releasing the photos to the press. north korea testing nukes. it's all in defiance because they sense a week and fact was american leadership in the effective things, months before an election that i thought governor pence did so well tonight was tied back to the fact that this wasn't just obama's bad decision-making.

hillary clinton was literally the architect of the foreign-policy that is now unraveling on the world stage and then you look in an issue like law enforcement, something that tugs at the heartstrings of every american as these these tragedies play out and communities. what you saw tonight is tim kaine come loaded with divisive rhetoric ready to blame law enforcement to suggest systemic vias and racism in the system. neil: there can be problems in any industry. >> of course there are problems with what the governor did so well tonight was the way we resolve these issues is about bringing everyone together and overwhelmingly the american people know that our law enforcement community is a law enforcement community that is for good. there is not systemic racism and bias. no i know that books -- both spoke pass each other a lot. i'm sure you don't cling to one versus the other but for some reason there was a pattern, that

after the clinton debate we have seen her solidified her position. depending on the polls she is up by six to eight points. pennsylvania, she is built on her lead. do you worry that this thing could be slipping away unless donald trump rally brings his a game? >> ibra prediction to make which is i think this race will reset. at least one more time before election day and maybe two or three more times. neil: every week it's been like that. >> that is absolutely the case but the four weeks prior to that what was consistently showing was the trend lines were really bad for hillary clinton campaign and they were very good for the trump pence ticket. i think tonight you will see a reset in the race. i think governor pence is

performance will generate momentum. neil: some said governor pence may have arrested a slight tonight. >> it's without question that his performance will generate momentum and to the american people it will be clear that hillary clinton and tim kaine want to continue to divide us. they have no policies he was championing tonight. he was focused on divisive rhetoric and personal insults and attacks and i'm almost certain historically senator kaine has been a very effective debater. i have watched all of his debates. neil: these two were much better at keeping the issues and concise cogent arguments than their counterparts were. that's not disparaging either. but let me ask you about how this plays out now.

is it your sense that governor pence at least and you touched on that, has reminded donald trump of the importance of study , the importance of really getting up to speed on this. i know he has studied for debates in the past and he's very serious about this stuff but he was sending a message as well,. >> i know he was thrilled with mike's performance tonight as we heard from him. they were obsolete thrilled and proud of his performance. think it's without question that tonight's performance in the debate will absolutely -- here's the thing about donald trump. he likes to win and i believe he will be very focused on winning the next two debates. neil: i thank you very very much. i have republican national committee guy who like this fellow doesn't get much sleep that this guy is a lot younger than i remember.

either that or i'm getting a lot older. >> i will take the younger. neil: we have a lot more coming up. it's too early to tell but one thing that is coming through again and again in interview after interview, if you like spicy aggressive debates they get to the point even though it might not be your point this was more in keeping with that than what we saw last week out of the presidential candidates. we will have more after this.

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all the things that i had been able to do. we're the spanns. america, let's do lunch. narrator: drop off a hot meal and say hello. volunteer by donating your lunch break at americaletsdolunch.org.

>> i appreciate the you are hired, you were fired thing. you have use of a use of a whole at and you running mate has used a lot of pre-done lines. what you just heard out there is more taxes, $2 trillion in more spending, more deficits and more death and more government and if you think that is all working then you look at the other side of the table. neil: is something i caught the vice presidential candidate comment looking in the camera talking directly to you. it may just be a cosmetic detail that didn't work wax sean spic probably feels it does the rnc can occasion's director. he's close to being jerry lewis at the end of the telethon.

sean is very good to see you. >> it's all makeup. neil: on the text make -- technique of look into the camera ronald reagan did that a lot. he quoted ronald reagan a lot. yet some of ronald reagan's mannerisms. did that help what one person said had been a slight to the republican ticket and maybe donald trump's performance and maybe your candidate arrested that tonight? >> let's take it back to the single greatest choice of presidential candidate makes as their vice presidential candidate nominee running mate will be. it says a lot about who they chose, the kind of decisions they will make an -- neil: as you were saying that governor mike pence leaving now. they are like me at a party come the last guest to leave. >> they have a lot of people that want to congratulate them. tonight if you wonder were kind of administration donald trump is going to have tonight would

be the day. my kids up oriented, strong and confident. those are the kinds of people that donald trump will surround himself with when he gets into the white house. on the debate itself look, i can't see where there was the style you were bringing up the oach or the substance for the solutions he brought tonight. tim kaine came into this thing think he gave her some one liners around. mike transport a stop to that throw quiken said we are in a substandard debate in a schooled him on issue after issue. neil: you may be stunned to leave right away as governor pence leads the facility tonight that the democrats thought their guy won. i don't know if you agree with this. i found them both to be likeable people. i found them both to the earnest from your bootstraps. they didn't come from a lot of money and look at them now kind of thing. i think that was certainly more as an inviting type of a venue

than what the presidential debate was. >> that's part of the reason they were equally chosen because of their mannerisms and electability. but look tonight was less of a personality contest i will give you that but it was a substandard contest in cane through the one-liners around. neil: would he think about the number of times they brought up the tax thing? >> again that's what they were hers. k we can come up with 10 lines and repeat them over and over and pence wouldn't have it. we are going to have a substandard discussion and kaine was not prepared for that. nick: you think donald trump the same issue comes up. >> i hope so. if donald trump has a performance like tonight we will roll into the white house because people are ready for change and that is what he epitomizes. they give that he is the agent of change and hillary clinton is the establishment. she is more of the same. she has been around for 30

years. if you like what you get from your government continue down that path. neil: i had no idea you were not backing hillary clinton. vp candidates tend to use a table in their debate. all the time, sarah palin and joe biden didn't. why is that? do you set the ground rules? >> i think it's negotiated among the team. neil: how does that all were? >> various organizations commissioned presidential debates that determine the site and then the two teams get together. each has a campaign representative that negotiates whether it's going to be a podium. whether it will be a table or podiums whether or be a town hall style the length of the debate in who goes first everything down to what rooms the teams occupied during the debate. everything is negotiated. neil: how are you holding up? >> i am great.

after a performance like tonight neil: it was a fun and engaging thing. >> i think if you are looking for, if you were on the fence i think you fell on our side tonight after watching mike pence. neil: this is going to surprise you but the democrats that if you were on the fence you are going to go -- isn't that so? >> that is so. neil: my buddy connell mcshane >> nael i was giving senator scott a hard time. a sign without a name on it. what did you think tonight? you may think that governor pence did well but would you think he did well? >> e-mailed the question. i chuckled to myself when i tried to bring president bush by not renegotiating a status of

forces negotiation. we did leave the force of 10,000 people there. we wouldn't have isis and the reset with russia. he was very thoughtful and methodical in talking about the economy that is reflected in a lot of the polling that shows people on both sides are saying he's right. >> on the russia questioned economic question and on social media that was getting a lot of attention and a lot of the re-tweeted comments came during a discussion. we are awaiting another presidential debate in st. louis but is there something we can take away that donald trump can emulate? >> you and i talked about the fact that there are singles and doubles, no home runs and no mistakes i a lot of it easy softball reports back. i think he should sit and room and watch governor pence and watch them debate and look where the transition point is. address the question and don't over answer like he tried to do over explain every little single

thing that say what he wants to say about what his beliefs are and i think you will do very well. >> nail back over to you. no connell thank you very much and senator thank you. we have a lot more reaction coming. kellyanne conway the trump campaign manager will be joining us. as a lot of folks are saying hey i can't believe i was watching a vice president of debate, found a really reverting. these are the number two guys that they will be -- that's pretty high praise. more from virginia right after this.

neil: all right gone are the days that kellyanne conway and

donald trump's campaign manager ken ghani where she would want and people wouldn't bother. now she is everywhere in crews are literally pulling at her. kellyanne conway give very much. how do you think you went? >> it was a spectacular night from governor pence. i think you see tonight why donald trump selected him to be the running mate. the selection of your running mate is the first decision you make as the presidential nominee and it shows donald trump's leadership and judgment in that regard. i appreciated the fact that governor pence was very tough tonight in very polite and did not have all these unhinged interruptions. neil: you would interrupt but what was the deal with that? >> really i'm perplexed. the moderator was very good but she was interrupted by senator kaine.

i don't think i was her fault. think you is being very impolite to a female. neil: so that's interesting story you raising the female card? >> only because they love to play a 24/7 and a hillary clinton world but it's a serious point that viewers out there neil they deserve a conversation on the issue. they expect to hear each person talking and giving his response and tim kaine was constantly interrupting. i thought it detracted from the conversation. i was proud of governor pence for trying to bring it back to the actual issues. neil: do you think kellyanne looking at this that if you were to advise donald trump that there might be great guy you come looking that governor pence's performance tonight and maybe study more, having tight clear answers? to your point there's a great deal of over talking but that will serve donald trump well if he does that in the next debate. >> he was really proud of his running mate tonight.

i talked to him personally and he spoke to governor pratt -- governor pence. they are two very different people and two very different people who share the same message. neil: would you agree that donald trump could have been prepared more or tightened his argument a little bit more and do more ported poorly did in the first 20 minutes of the debate? >> the vacuum that the created but there are many issues that he will give them the town hall format. m is he looking forward to the town hall format? you don't have control of the crowd that you have it any say about who is in the audience? >> we have we have been talking to gallup about how they -- undecided voters. at town hall is a natural habitat for donald trump.

just today in arizona donald trump had thousands and thousands of people there. yesterday people showed up. they got in line yesterday morning and it was quite remarkable for someone to command that type of crowd when you don't play an instrument or you're not singing. neil: she has gotten better at those kinds of formats. >> i'm not raising expectations. i'm saying that donald trump is a brilliant businessman and he obviously loves the country not to make the sacrifices and he knows the issues. i think in the first debate he was overly gracious to her and got no credit for it. neil: do you think you will be as gracious? >> to realize he scored no points by naysayers and critics in being so respect up the her. no will he entertain a nuclear option that if he is going to go there she will go there?

>> she has been there are ready. all they do is throw insults at donald trump and try to make everybody held to account for something he made six years ago. mike pence have a great night, didn't he? neil: they bring up issues that donald trump said months ago or sometimes just weeks ago. >> speaking of just weeks ago we have seen hillary clinton refer to 10 million hard-working good americans that may not want to vote for her as irredeemable and deplorable and on top of that a similar situation with donors in the fund-raiser. neil: are you surprised? >> i think this is the year that voters if they have proven nothing else as they will not be told how to think in who to vote for and what's important to them. the rise of donald trump and the

rise of bernie sanders on the democratic side shows you voters are doing their own thing. i think donald trump is a natural communicator taking his message to the people through the noise. neil: he was very effective yesterday in his speech explaining how capitalism works and there is nothing illegal going on but would it behoove him to just get these facts out improve it? >> we are looking at one page from a couple of days from 1995. he got a 900 million-dollar loss. neil: do you know whether or not he paid taxes for the next 20 years? would it not be illegal if he didn't? >> it would not be illegal. "the new york times" had a story this morning meal that said 1/2 million americans have done the same thing in the same year 1995 and that's a provision that has

been around since 1918. i can remember president barack obama and his democratic league chosen house and senate saying you know what our first priority should be? that's the great in determination of entrepreneurial america. we reward people who are willing to stick with it in take those losses and carry them forward. you know darned well that donald trump made a profit and pay taxes on those profits. i am being photo bombs. this guy interrupts like tim kaine. >> that's a good line. neil: thank you both very much. >> he works harder than anyone on tv. neil: this is sean hannity. he's just looking around for someone. thank you very much. i know you have got to fly out

of here. one of the things i want to bring up you get a sense of the room and sean hannity is here and all these power players you riddle -- literally have a who's who of people continuing to push their views that their candidates won. of course that is in the eye that the holder but it's fair to say if you are in the trump campaign in looking to stabilize things right now governor mike pence might have been able to do that. congressman dennis kucinich tweeting us right now. anthony scaramucci as well. we have also got the cochair and adam schipper and all those people. in the meantime i've got to get a sense right now from you congressman kucinich page talk about getting the message out and whether you agree or disagree with the message he was more effective in getting it out tonight? >> i think it's in a draw. what was different though is that my pence had eye contact

with the audience constantly and that's something that tim kaine missed an opportunity. the other thing is that mike pence looked at tim kaine and tim kaine and kaine often looked away from him. people notice those kinds of things. the interruptions that kaine made i thought detracted from his ability to get a message across about what hillary clinton stands for and i think in that way it didn't help the campaign out much. when all is said and done i think we are looking at both candidates as the running mates of the principles. neil: i had it explained to me something like this, whatever slight the trump campaign was experiencing, too early to tell, governor pence interrupted that or slow death or maybe even stop it. what do you think? >> it definitely helps. i sort of felt bad for senator kaine for a moment because it looked like a wild-card game

where the flyball came to him in the final hour and he dropped the ball and now the game is running and it looks like he has a win on them. i thought it was thusly terrible. i'm not saying that because i'm a trump surrogate and all that stuff. it was the petulance of the camera. we both know on television a lot of television is visual and i watch it here in detroit and i could not believe his facial expressions. the condensation -- and it dawned on him i've been crushed by this guy and you could see -- neil: that is your opinion. we don't know when we will see. make up from your perspective here do you think this sends a reminder to donald trump who is actually a skilled debater and he took away the entire republican who's who and he got the nomination that there is

value and prepping or maybe over prepping? governor pence is famous for doggedly doing the books that there might be a lesson for mr. trump? >> pence is a yen to donald trump yang. neil: that doesn't mean he doesn't need to practice. >> he is a politician. he will be better prepared going into the debate in st. louis. i attended the first vice presidential debate between dole and mondale in houston texas. in 1996, 76. neil: oh the first one. >> it was a historic debate in tonight's debate was very traditional. it was riveting as you said and i really think pants came across as reassuring and kind of had

this doctor's bedside manner. he was almost at times talking to kaine like he was a rebellious teenager. kaine interrupted him 64 times. neil: is that right? b we had a campaign staffer counting and the moderator interrupted once. neil: kellyanne was just saying as a woman she found that offensive. >> being interrupted? neil: and interrupting the way she did and the way she interrupted with it. >> i found it offensive and i also found that she didn't interrupt cane. she interrupted pants and once again i call this the left-wing media mafia and it's well deserved when we see moderators not staying in bias. neil: is up to the candidates and its perception. >> well it is the right of about pence's he didn't take the bait. he rose above it and stood on

ground. neil: all right. we will grade this and look at all these binaries later on but i did find them, i enjoyed this debate more than i did the presidential one taking nothing away from the presidential candidates but this just kept moving and moving. what do you think? >> was very fast pace from the start to look at some of the headlines at the headlines that are arctic crossing some of the country's major news sites. the "washington post" have been talking about this is the headline that pence kaine traded sharp words. the hill, or "the wall street journal" rather saying kaine grove pens on trump's taxes then of course "politico" and they are saying, they're big headline is kaine struggles on trumps scandals on pence. neil: that seems to be a -- for the media.

>> i would not disagree with you there but i've got to point this out because florida was 29 electoral votes is a swing state. look what's on the front page of the "miami herald". this is key. it's a hurricane. florida prepares for hurricane matthew. if you go to their web site you can barely find coverage of the debate. neil: that's a very good point. dennis kucinich i'm wondering you have to connect on an emotional level in these things. any message for the presidential candidates as they get ready for two more debates and how they have to comport themselves? >> i think that people are looking for presidential candidates to embody a steadiness, a steal inés, and abilities to be temperate. they're looking for that and they are also looking for a compact explanation of what they do when they are i think both candidates still

have to prove something with respect to that. we all know where the deficits are with both candidates but what we need to know is can the candidates explained directly to the american people what they are going to do specifically and do it in a way without degrading the other candidate? neil: they have run out of time to do that but you are quite right on that. anthony you are big and money raising and what this helped donald trump tonight? >> it's going to help at the money raising neil picked up after the last presidential debate. we raised $18 million and we have created a tremendous amount of momentum. one other thing about governor pence, he's a phenomenal money raiser. neil: there is that. make a you are noticing that the last event. >> absolutely even though we didn't get a bump in the polls we got a bump in fund-raising.

neil: guys i want to thank you all and thanks to my mic through here. they have worked their high knees off. the fact of the matter is this is to debates down to debates down to more debates down two

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>> trying to keep up with the insult driven campaign. >> i'm just giving facts about your running mate. >> i'm happy to defend him. don't put words in my mouth. i'm happy to defend him. nicole: breaking news this morning. a fiery debate between mike pence and tim king. they defend their running mates in clash over immigration. we have all the highlights in the analysis for you. good morning i'm nicole petallides. lauren: good morning.