consistent growth throughout the decades and i expect to continue throughout the future. neil: big and slow, the sorry of my life. the cost of freedom continues with david asman on the place for business, fox. >> after years of endless budget cuts that have impaired our defense, i am calling for one of the largest defense spending increases in history. david: president trump calling to boost military spending by 54 billion dollars as an increase of about 10%. well, forget too much. some here say it's not enough. hi, everybody, i'm david asman, welcome to forbes on fox. let's go in focus with steve forbes, rich, elizabeth mack jond, bruce. and steve, too much or too little? >> barely beginning. it's not take to take where

spending was five or six years ago and the air force is run down, the average aircraft 27 years, navy the smallest, army is run down and equipment around the world. you look around the world, the world is falling apart. we have to do the rebuild and do it fast. david: john, it sounds like an upgrade. >> no, we don't, the 54 billion is way too much. that would render the u.s. the 7th largest military end inspector in the world. we don't have a problem of spending too much on a military. we're spending too much on a military that has too much globally that is nothing to do with our national defense. cut defense spending and defend the u.s. david: rich, it's true as a percent of gdp our military spending is nowhere near where it used to be and nowhere near other countries. russia spends on the military and we spend half that, 3.3%, what do you think?

>> yeah, and we don't even know what china's is. look, i agree with steve, that the threats in the world are changing and they're becoming increasingly technologically driven. we won the race to the atom oba obama-- bomb, and we won the cold war for the same reason and investing in military r and d and we can't afford to lose that race to china or russia. david: bruce, look at raw numbers, we can put up a graph or a chart, in 2011, that wasn't that long ago during the obama administration, we were spending 669 and now over 500 billion. that's less than two years ago. >> part of me thinks this is merely tough talk by donald to blunt the criticism he's facing over his ties to russia, but more broadly on some of this

stuff, it appears he's banging the drums for war and same time they're proposing a 30% cut in the budget of the state department, unless we're going to get the trump and kushner family to-- >> well, aren't we going to talk to anybody or spend money on defense. david: we can talk. as i said before, e-mack, just cut the wine expenses for the state department, that would cut the budget in half right there. >> that's funny and $125 billion in waste at the pentagon a recent finding. david: right. >> i think the president is not talking about banging the drums through war, but peace through strength and the gdp is a third of what the spending was in the 50's. and the chart you saw, fastest drawdown in decades. what happened in the obama administration, the obama reset that didn't work, the flawed assumptions about containing isis, north korea flawed assumptions. flawed assumptions about iran. i'm with rich and steve, the technological capability of our enemies is increasing, we need

to increase spending. david: sabrina, i understand what john is saying about wasting money here and there, and like bureaucracy in many ways, not in all ways. but president trump has focused on a couple of wasteful programs and cut them. so he's addressing that issue, no? >> well, right, that's a good thing and it's important to keep in mind that this is actually only about 3% higher than the obama administration's last proposed budget for military spending. david: a good point. it's not that out of whack from where we were. the important thing, making sure we're not just having more spending, but smarter spending. i think there is a need for more readiness within our military to be able to have the training and the equipment and the mechanics sort of taking care of more quickly, but i think the big piece missing and this is what i want to make sure that we're hearing more about is that technological peace, making sure we're investing smartly and not just the big shiny objects that sort of make us feel important. it's behind the scenes.

to bruce's point, i think that we want to be careful if we're paying for this by cutting the first line of defense, which is our diplomacy, we should just be careful be that. david: but, steve, there's one thing about the r and d that concerns me. very often we start a program and it takes years, sometimes decades to complete it. by the time it's completed, the technology is obsolete. >> unfortunately, the defense department, like the food and drug administration practices moore's lawyer spelled backwards. the weapons systems go on and on and on and that's where real we form, general mattis, now secretary of defense, one of his top priorities has got to be reform this whole acquisition process. there's no reason it should take 20 years, we should get a new system in four or five years. if you have to pull it out what they call it skunk works, pull out of the normal bureaucracy and give it to a group and say go to it, go do it. david: for those who don't know, moore's law, technology

every year gets cheaper and doing more and steve says it's the opposite in the military, to which you say? >> steve is right. look at the f-35 fighter, you know, everybody had to have a say and now it looks like a, you know, it was created by a committee and took too long and cost too much and nobody really likes it. we need these skunk works and we need to invite the in the likes of elon musk, if he wants to participate, to blow some fresh air into our military r & d. david: bruce, isn't it good that donald trump is it looking at some programs that apparently president obama didn't as intently as to whether they're wasteful or not? >> well, sure, i mean, i think that that's what we need to know here. where does he want to spend the money, if he's going to take out an inefficient aircraft carrier that costs us a lot to maintain and replace it with. david: fighter jets. >> with cyber technology, whatever it is and also is the master deal maker, going to ask

our friends at n.a.t.o. kick in more. i don't see it makes sense to increase the budget. david: but, e-mack, he's getting certain concessions from certain contractors with the fog. >> that's right, he's right to look there. because, talk about bloated bureaucracy, there's a circus hall of mirrors of consultants there. and the president is right to look at the bureaucratic bloat there. david: john, go ahead. >> i think that conservatives can't have it both ways. you can't be for small government and then support the increase of the military that's charged with defending the free world and with doing nation building, all sorts of things that have nothing to do with our national defense. this goes against everything republicans claim to believe. david: but sabrina, hasn't trump made it clear, president trump, he's going to take a different stance at least than gw bush did on nation building? he's not for pushing it out

that far particularly in the middle east? >> we've heard that from other republicans in the past and things change. we'll see how it plays out. i think that we face some very difficult threats today that require different kinds of alliances and we're in a very different world than we were 20, 30 years ago, and so, i think it's important that we pay attention to the military, but i think we just really need to make sure that we're figuring out if it's smarter. david: well, and spending our money wisely, that's what this gang, thank you very much. coming up, the white house's plan to give americans a tax credit to help pay for health care. some republicans stood up and cheered when they heard that, others worry it could turn into a whole new subsidy. we'll explain next. this is the silverado special edition. this is one gorgeous truck. oh, did i say there's only one special edition? because, actually there's five. ooohh!! aaaahh!! uh! hooooly mackerel. wow. nice. strength and style. it's truck month.

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obamacare. i am leland vittert. now back to forbes on fox. david: president trump giving americans a clims glimpse of what he wants to replace obamacare with this week take a listen. >> we should help americans

purchase their insurance through tax credits and expanded savings accounts. now some members of his parties say those tax credits could turn into entitlements for those who don't pay taxes. when i first heard the president i was happy i could deduct my own health expenses from my own paycheck, that made me happy, didn't it make you happy? >> absolutely, david. i think that the key to remember here, we want to keep moving the ball down the field in the right direction and going towards tax credits is doing that. it's giving people more ownership over their health care dollars. they're a little too ideological. all of the replacement plans out there, most of them, at least, include a universal tax credit for people making 3 to 400% below the poverty lines. if we're going to get hung up on that as a new entitlement, i think we're losing sight of the real goals of the game. neil: i interviewed rand paul,

he warned about tax credits turning into entitlements, but said there's an exception for taxpayers. >> your bill would have a provider, the tax credits are fine as long as you're a taxpayer, you don't want it to be another welfare program. >> we have an expanded health savings account. in my replacement bill we let every individual join a group plan through an association. david: john, in the context of what rand paul is saying, a tax credit sounds like a good idea, didn't it? >> no, i don't. i think he misses the point. for my day-to-day, it's more crucial to are me top a laptop ap wi-fi, we don't need a tax credit, we go into the market and buy it. why do we act as health care is some sort of different good? it's a market good like anybody else, president trump should free people to buy what they need. david: it's a market good, that's through, but with obamacare, deductibles, a

family has to pay in a bronze plan, $12,000 before they reach the point where insurance kicks in. you might as well not have any insurance. better to deduct the first dollar you pay for health care from your paycheck. >> the democrats confused insurance coverage to access to health care and affordable health care, we need to more more in a free market direction. i don't know why in terms of health insurance we don't do with the-- or what we do with food. food stamps and the government doesn't run agriculture as they used to in russia and china and starve millions to death. they'll have free markets in health care, and safety nets for people with i think so this like having insurance funds for people who truly can't get insurance, but let the free market work. david: e-mack, you know taxes better than anybody i know. what do you think about this tax credit idea? >> you know, i kind of like it, i hear sabrina says.

and when you looked at the bronze plan, you looked at catastrophic, chaos insurance. the tax credits, i think sabrina is right, don't let the purpose be the enemy of the food. earned income tax credit is improper and somewhat fraudulent. a lot of money goes out the door. i hear what conservatives are saying, tax credits immediate money out the door and abused tax credits, a lot of fraud there. i think what rand paul is saying, under so like the way to go. david: tax credits for people who pay taxes is a good thing, right, for health care? >> the problem with all of this, they've had seven years to monkey around with this and still don't have a plan. the tax credit the conservatives aren't wild about, it would act like a gift car and go back to that bronze statistic. most the people who buy bronze

get a subsidy so they're not paying that. david: that's part of the problem, rich, is that the subsidies, can't go on much longer, can they? i mean, it's bankrupting the nation. >> yes, it is, but i agree with sabrina and liz that we can't let perfect be the enemy of good. we're not going to get a peer-free market system the first time around. let's remember who elected trump, it wasn't just free market conservatives. you know, it was people who want to put americans first and they came from many of the poorer states and the devastated communities. so we've got to get something through that moves health care in the right direction and it's not going to be perfect this time. david: and john, what about steve's point, there's a difference between coverage, which democrats think everybody should be covered, that's fine if you get good health care, but it doesn't matter if you have insurance if you can't afford to go to the doctor, right? >> well, steve is exactly right, what he's saying is we're not talking about insurance here. if we were talking about

insurance, as in catastrophic coverage for when you really need it, everyone would have insurance because it would be so cheap. what we're talking about is giving people access to something that is not insurance, so, of course, it's expensive. david: steve? >> the bottom line, in terms of the republicans, the proposal they have in terms of these tax credits, they're going to cut off the people with the least, and they're not going to be able to take the political heat for it. so do something, if you want to do something like food stamps, get good free markets and the government out of the rest of it. david: capitalism with safety nets. the cashin' in gang ready to roll the bottom of the hour. eric: president trump laying out an aggressive agenda. the question, how do pay for it. the president as budget director dick mulvaney is here. and the unions mandated could hurt those they were supposed to help. a fast food chain is proving us right.

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>> the european parliament apparently trying to send a message to our president over his new immigration policies just voted to temporarily end visa-free travel for americans who visit europe. so, steve, whose economy suffers, ours or theirs? >> we may particular a little hit, david.

theirs suffer the most. we don't allow for visa-free for five countries out of those in europe. it's legitimate to know who you're coming from, what country, if you have proper programs there, to make sure bad guys aren't travelling through to us. inge they'll back off, they need the tourism from the u.s. david: doesn't this back fire on this? >> of course, when you block people into the u.s., they're going to retaliate. it hurts us both and i don't think it makes us safer. david: and an increase of americans traveled last year partly because the europe went down in value so it's cheaper for americans to go there. >> yeah, and you have an improving american economy. western europe has become kind of a disneyland for adults and americans like to travel there and see the way life once was and europe would be shooting

itself in the foot if they tried to stop it or halt it. david: on the other hand, bruce, it won't go completely without cost for us, this could affect commerce as well on our side, right? >> well, yeah, i mean, here is the thing. this whole thing, the travel ban, it wasn't thought through and you're going to get more of this unless they stop, and less until they stop making these decisions in a vacuum. it's bad, we don't want this, they're our allies. david: it's a kind of blackmail, isn't it? >> not exactly blackmail. i think the eu is going to back down as well. i think we have to keep in mind every action that we have has an equal and opposite reaction and we have to keep in mind this requires some diplomacy. at the same time, i think everybody needs to come abandon. every country has the right to determine who comes in and out of the country and we don't have the same views. that's okay, we in america have a different set of views than in japan or germany and that's the way it is. david: e-mack, what about the

money? >> because i'm a radical moderate union, and the european union, like watching crabgrass grow. i don't would they do this. david: the european economy is stagnant. it's like shooting themselves in the foot. >> they've been doing it when raising regulations and the like grow half the rate of the u.s. even in this environment. and this part and parcel of their own destruction. david:on, we're becoming more free market and taxing businesses and so forth. don't you think the same thing is going to happen over there eventually? >> i certainly hope so, i don't think that what we're doing here indicates free market when we're treeing to block the free flow of people. you wouldn't do it with goods, don't do it with people. david: the last word. the dow hitting another record

this week, topping 21,000 for the first time ever and our

>> and we hope to see you there on monday. meantime, back with stocks informers say are headed higher despite the fact, e-mack, we're at record numbers. target resources by the way. >> they do nat gas, liquid gas, a player in pipelines, looking good. >> john, do you like the gas company. >> in a deregulated company, yes, i do. david: you like green hill and company, what do they do. >> same idea in deregulated idea there will be a lot more m & a. david: mergers and acquisitions, a lot of that going on. >> it was an ice age for that under obama and i think john is

right. david: we had snap this week, a very big ipo. thank you, gang, appreciate it. have a wonderful week on fox. the number one business block continues with eric bolling and cashin' in. >> . >> president trump outlining his aggressive to-do list this week to the nation from a massive tax overhaul to repealing and replacing obamacare, to building a border wall and a trillion dollar infrastructure plan to name a few. now, democrats have some in his own party how he'll pay for it all. i'm eric bolling, we'll get to the cashin' in panel in a moment. but first, director mulvaney. ironically democrats are all of a sudden worried about our debt when it comes to this president's agenda. do you see a little hypocrisy there?