john buckingham. big record. s&p 500 is too close to call. as we hear the closing bell, so happy you guys were all back in action watching us on claman countdown. hope it was a great thanksgiving a couple weeks to christmas an hanukkah. that is is it for the claman countdown. we'll see you storm. david: look at dow jones industrial average, 23,581. it had to be over 23,059 to be a record. there are new highs. other drama on capitol hill, the s&p 500 too close to call right now. it may end up as a winner but we'll wait and see. looks like it will be in the negative. as well. but not the nasdaq. not even close. as online sales surge on this cyber monday. hi, everybody, i'm david asman. melissa: i'm melissa francis. this is "after the bell." more on the big market movers but first here is what else we're covering during this very busy hour ahead. a tale of two bosses.

sarah huckabee sanders grilled on power strug bell who is running the consumer protection bureau. how the white house and the interim director mick mulvaney are responding now. plus shocking, humbling, embarrassing. senator al franken responding to allegations of sexual harrassment speaking to the press this afternoon, looking to learn from his mistakes. david: yeah, right. melissa: to put this all behind him, but can he? we'll ask karl rove. as this scandal looms large, it is make-or-break time for the senate, back to work on capitol hill this hour, facing a blistering schedule to push through high-stakes agenda items by end of the year. chief among them, by the way, tax reform. that is very serious. we are hearing key holdouts could be coming around. where things stand right now. david? david: what is full responsibility? i take full responsibility? melissa: yeah. >> what does that mean when nothing happens, after you say it? melissa: yeah. david: at any rate, stocks sliding after hitting new highs, nicole petallides on the floor of new york stock exchange. nicole, what happened?

i thought we would be way up today. and it came down. we are still in the green on the dow as we mentioned but it came down. why? >> verizon, 3m, home depot helped lead the dow jones industrial average. there was a little bit of optimism when we heard from senator rand paul when he was likely to be a yes, sir vote. we've seen back and forth action. we hit intraday record all-time highs. pretty much a flat line now. for the month we're looking great for eight months in a row for gains of dow and s&p. dow has not seen that more than 22 years. we'll look to see if we clock in records. look at retailers. names such as amazon, new high. google, facebook, home depot, all hit record highs but across the board retailers really wowed wall street throughout the day. they had a great month, many of them. we've seen records for black friday. cyber monday estimated to be 6.6 billion. so much e-commerce. within e-commerce, shopping online is mobile. that is a big, big emerging

trend is the mobile shopping. that is what these advertisers and companies are hoping to see going forward. back to you. david: nicole, thank you very much. melissa. melissa: a lot at stake for the white house this week. now a power grab at the country's top consumer agency has some in d.c. wondering who's the boss? fox business's blake burman is at the white house with the latest on this one. i have to tell you i've been enjoying following this story today, blake. reporter: who would have thought the cfpb would be above the fold, front page news, first questions right out the chute at the white house press briefing. it is intriguing. you have a power struggle. mick mulvaney who is the budget director and leandra english, deputy director at cfpb, both think they are the boss. white house, department of justice and cfpb general counsel saying 1998 vacancies reform act the law, gives president trump the ability to put mulvaney and

interim role. english and democrats say the 2010 dodd-frank act, succession plan laid out in the law makes english the new head. english filed a lawsuit. fast forward to this morning both showed up to the agency this morning thinking they led it. mulvaney fired off this email within hours being on the post. he said, and i quote, please disregard any instructions from miss english in her presumed capacity as acting director. if you receive additional communications in any form, related in any way to the function of her actual or presumed official duties such as not personal, please inform the general counsel immediately. like i mentioned, this was the story, one of them at least at the press briefing. here is what i asked sarah sanders. >> does the white house believe leandra english is unqualified for that position? >> look. i'm not saying that we do have anything against her. i'm saying we want director mulvaney to lead this agency. that is a decision the president is allowed to make and one that he has made and has legal

authority to do so. reporter: now one thing to keep in mind here, this is an interim post. something that could only last potentially weeks or even months. president trump still has to name a nominee. that person still has to go before congress. what they are fighting over right now, what you just heard from sarah sanders, this administration feels that the president has a right to do what he did. leandra english, democrats and others say, we'll see you in court. melissa. melissa: only one of those bosses showed up with doughnuts. that was mick mulvaney. reporter: walked in with doughnuts. melissa: i'm a big believer bringing a treat to those who you want to have work for you and help you and you know, there you go. anyway, that shows who is boss. reporter: try to charm them. if you like dunkin' donuts. he is signed it acting together. melissa: here he is. >> broader group, three or four dozen folks, tell you pre much

the same thing i told them, then i take a couple questions. this is ordinary course of business in washington, d.c., what you're witnessing at cfpb, happens every single agency every couple years which is transition. so happens cfpb has never been through a transition before. it was inevitable at some point. it would be now or in july that mr. cordray left and mr. trump would get a chance, president trump would get a chance to put someone in this position. so i had a chance to walk through with a lot of folks here who had not been through transition what they should expect. they should expect that this agency will stay open. rumors that i'm going to set the place on fire or blow it up or lock the doors are completely false. i'm a member of the executive branch of government. we intend to execute laws of the united states including provisions of dodd-frank that govern the cfpb. that being said, the way we go about it, interpret it, enforce it will be dramatically

different than the current administration than under the last. anybody who thinks a trump administration cfpb, same as obama administration that elections have consequences at every agency. includes the cfpb. i don't have specifics in terms of actions in terms of new attitude we're taking at cfpb in fact that the trump administration is in charge. i tell these folks what is happening immediately. effective today, we put something similar in place what we did across the entire executive branch at outset of the administration. we did a 90-day hiring freeze. we put a 30-day hiring freeze at cfpb. more importantly, we put 30-day immediate freeze on any new rules, regulations guidance. anything in the pipeline stops for at least 30 days, while i get a chance to see exactly what is going on and kick the tires here at the bureau.

additionally, there will be no payments out of the civil penalties fund for at least 30 days while i see a chance to get what is happening. i think excess of $50 million in the fund. i want to get a handle what the fund is all about before we start making any distributions. there will be obvious important exceptions to this i had a chance to talk to legal some today and enforcement and things going on in existing lawsuits. i will be briefed tomorrow, roughly 100 or so lawsuits that the agency, that the bureau is involved with. i get briefed on that tomorrow. clearly if there are statutory deadlines, those will continue to be met. if there are legal deadlines as part of litigation, those will be met. in terms of anything that is discretionary, we're putting a 30-day hold on it here. other than that, it is really too early to say how things will be different. i will be briefed tomorrow on not only lawsuits but enforcement actions, investigations, rule-making in the pipeline. i will have more idea tomorrow as what some of the next steps may be.

lastly, then i will take some questions, folks asked me, if i'm going to be here? some folks in the press have asked that. some folks here at agency. i keep saying agency. i apologize, bureau. yeah the president makes it clear he wants me here. honestly since the my name son the door here i want to be here. i don't want anything coming out of here i don't know about it inevitably will be linked to me anyway. i want it to be good, quality, work. i will be here three days a week. be across at omb three days a week. i recognize it adds up more than five days a week. i've been a small business owner. i slept at office. i worked 16 hours a day and slept at office. that is not something new. if you started something new, working extra is not that big of a deal in final scheme of things. with that we take questions for a couple minutes if that is all right. >> director mulvaney. >> yes, sir. >> you had the opportunity to meet with the president earlier today. what did he tell you about what

he wants? >> wants me to fix it. wants me to get it back to the point where it can protect people without trampling on capitalism, without choking off the access to financial services that are so critical to so many folks. so many folks actually in the lower and middle classes. folks trying to start their own businesses. people trying to break out. people trying to get credit for the very first time. we need to figure out a way to both follow the law and protect citizens asset forth in the act but do so in such a fashion that it doesn't choke off the access to capital. what does that mean? the access to money, that is important for some people to succeed in their small business, private lives and so forth. so that is the charge he has given me. we both share the belief that this administration, this particular bureau under the previous administration had gone too far over towards strangling access to capital. making it difficult for financial services to flow. as a result, folks that we want to try to help are hurt.

we want to fix that. >> a sense how long they expect you to be in this temporary position? >> that will be up to the senate more than anybody else. i know the president is interested in naming a permanent replacement as quickly as possible and as quickly as quality of the candidates allows. my guess is you will see fairly swift movement on that. that being said, swift movement on the president's part has very rarely translated in swift movement on the senate's part. we'll see how long it actually takes. yes, sir. we'll go across the room. >> reporter: financial times? >> yes, sir. reporter: some injunction. >> court will do whatever it is going to do. that's fine. i read legal opinion not only department of justice but more interestingly, not more interestingly, as interestingly the legal opinion of the general counsel here. this is the president's right. my guess the court will hear same arguments from capable folks. if the court decides to issue a temporary restraining order, order me not to come into the

building. i will absolutely follow the law. we follow the law around here in the executive branch. i'm not concerned about it. i'm going forward tonight and tomorrow assuming i will be here. i will be here until the court or president tells me otherwise. reporter: what criticism bureau reflective of your idealogical commitment to small government? >> i don't know how to answer at that question. i will talk about the previous statements about the bureau? how about that? my previous opinion structure cfpb, i think it is awful example of a bureaucracy gone wrong almost entirely unaccountable to people that are supposed to oversee it and pay for it. i have same fundamental principled misgivings the way this bureau is structured. i think it is wrong to have completely unaccountable federal bureaucracy. i think it is completely wrong. i learning about powers i have as acting director. they would frighten most of you.

would worry to think how little oversight congress has over me now as i am director. how little everysight the committees have how cfpb functions. if you, if you really studied the constitution, nature of our government, study the way the bureaucracy is supposed to work, it would both frighten and disturb you this agency is as independent as it is. it doesn't surprise me by the way, to the extent we're having succession challenge, as lodged by miss english, it doesn't surprise me that grows out of an agency think it is not accountable to anybody in the first place. so, none of that has changed. that being said i can't change a lot of it, because it is statutory. up to congress to fix it. i'm running agency as law sets for the. yes, ma'am. reporter: quick follow-up to that question-- [inaudible]. you have called the agency -- [inaudible]. how can you insure the american people you are the right person to lead this agency?

>> actually i think you go back look at line it, was a joke and in a sick, sad kind of way which is slightly different but again the sentiment is the same. the reasons that i said that, the reasons that i still believe that this agency is flawed are things i think people back home would agree with. look at it this way. this is how i explained it to people here today. when i was in congress, if you, if the cfpb did something to you back home you did not like, okay, there was literally nowhere for you to turn for redress. you could not call your senator. you could not call the congressman. in fact, house of representatives. you can not call the president. you can only fire director is for cause. that is completely unaccountable agency. that is wrong. citizens should have some ability to hold the bureaucracy accountable and they can't here. why we need structural and legislative change to the way the place is run that is being said, that is outside of the bounds of the director to fix.

yes, ma'am. reporter: thank you. do you find this power struggle between yourself and lee lee andrea english, you said it was -- do you find -- >> more awkward for people that work here. i don't know her. i haven't read her. there were couple headlines, people showed up at work claiming to be director. one person showed up at work claiming to be director. she wasn't here. more uncomfortable for the folks that know her and work here not knowing what the future holds. she is private citizen. she can do what she did. she brought the lawsuit in private capacity. i'm assuming she spaying for her own lawyers. the cfpb is not. the cfpb did not pay for lawsuit. she has a right to do that. we'll move on here and let the occurs do as they will. >> she didn't come to work. >> i did not see her here today. i have been here since 7:30.

>> have you had any contact -- >> can i go this way? reporter: during meeting with staffers push back from views about bureau's work? >> folks asked question. i am not here to shut the place down. the law doesn't allow me to do that. that being said we'll run it differently than the previous administration. they appreciate the candor. these are professional people. even if they have been here five years, have been in government, 10, 15, 20, a lot of folks came from other agencies. they are very professional. they know the gig for lack of a better word. i hope they appreciate the candor. i appreciated candor they showed to me. it was extraordinarily professional. i have absolutely no complaints. i hope they don't either. yes, ma'am? reporter: [inaudible] >> if the law allowed this place not to exist i would sit with the president to make the case other agencies could do this job just as if not more effectively. that being said, if i had the chance to change it, put it on

appropriations, subject to oversight to congress i can do that as well. i have none of that flexibility as director of agency, this bureau. yes, sir? reporter: couple things. do you have any plan for her ongoing appointments for the assistant director and [inaudible]? >> to last point first. i will be here all day tomorrow, all day thursday, going through the regs in the pipeline. stuff out the door, i don't think there is very much i can do about it. once it is gone from here, finally gone from here i think next step in the review process for lack of a better word would be cra, as much as i think the president just signed today on arbitration rules. that is the ordinary course of business. we'll follow the ordinary course of business around here. regarding ms. english, i don't know. i haven't met her. if you don't call, you don't show, you don't have a job next

day but i'm not sure how it works here. i have to find out what that is all about. yes, ma'am? reporter: [inaudible]. >> no i think the president called her that a couple times before. that is probably not the last time he called you that. i think it is interesting, itch not seen the lawsuit yet. i don't know if i've been named as defendant. i heard a rumor they've been named. i have not seen a lawsuit. nor have been served with it. i am speculating what is in the lawsuit. one of the assertions the agency needs to be independent. at same time i hear today, media reports miss english is on the hill meeting with mr. schumer and miss warren. it makes you wonder who she wants to be independent from. does she want to be independent from everybody or independent from donald j. trump. my guess is the latter.

i have no comments about mrs. warren's comments about me. yes, sir? reporter: [inaudible]. >> yeah. reporter. is that a concern? you have a seat on the -- >> yeah. reporter: should be any concern of independent agency headed by someone with direct report to the president? >> my understanding, first of all it has to be, number one, in order for the president to fill this spot using vacancies act, somebody currently senate confirmed anyway. every person would report to the president, number one. number two, from presidential value this is how it has been done here. people forget the first acting director was the treasury secretary. i will, i will be as closely tied to donald trump as president, as secretary geithner and mr. cordray were to president obama. i don't think that is anything different about any of the structures. one of the reasons i think the lawsuit may be ill-founded because they're sitting here

looking at me, somehow i'm different, but same as used before. yes, sir. reporter: language in dodd-frank actually allows geithner, treasury secretary to set up agency. doesn't provide for anything after that. >> right. is there a question there? reporter: no concern for independence? >> no. i will be as independent from donald trump as this role as richard cordray was and timothy geithner were from president obama. yes, ma'am. reporter: are you -- what happens with the lending regulations that came out? second, miss english, will she be allowed to come into the building if she shows up tomorrow? >> yeah. reporter: what would you rule look like if she were -- >> payday rule i think i'm getting briefed on rules and regs tomorrow. that is already gone over to the federal registry for printing. i'm not really sure. i will have more details on that tomorrow. as to ms. english, yeah, she wants to show up tomorrow, i

think she is still employed here. her i.d. is pretty good or still valid. we have not taken any steps to terminate her, if that is your question. yes, sir? reporter: you said you wouldn't have taken steps. would you take steps in the future to fire her? >> i don't know what the rules are. i don't know what the private sector but public sector, no call, no show today justifies termination. we'll have to find out. we expect people to work. folks who are here, expect people to work. maybe she took a vacation day for long thanksgiving weekend. i don't know. we'll find out. we expect people to work here. buddy of mine wrote me this morning said only in washington, d.c., could you get sued for showing up to work which i got sued for today apparently. we're going to go by the book when it comes to dealing with any employee including miss english. yes, sir in the back? reporter: two questions. what about your role as budget

director? the american people right now, given all you're trying to do and all that congress historically failed to do regarding the budget, do people need a full-time budget director? what do you tell people who say, wait a minute that should be a full-time job? >> believe me, being budget director is a full-time job, there is no question about it. this will be a heavy work load for the next couple months, weeks, however long i end up being here. that being said, i am absolutely comfortable with the team i put together at omb to cover this workload during this whatever period of time this turns out to be. i'm hopeful to put together a team here at cfpb as well that can do the same thing. i was very encouraged by the quality of people that i met here today, professionalism, folks i met here today. my guess is while it will be a lot of extra work, we'll be able to do both jobs for period of time. reporter: second question, critical of the independence of the bureau or the lack of

accountability -- >> right. reporter: argument for the independence is that congress, federal government, has not done anything, especially during the financial crisis to push back against the big banks, the large financial institutions. what evidence do you have outside this organization that your administration has done anything to push back against wall street like the president promised he would during the campaign? >> i'm not going to relitigate the causes of the financial crisis and what did and didn't happen. what agencies did their job and what agencies didn't do their job but looking forward, i do think you've got to raise a question as to what happened here. in fact i asked this question today of folks at cfpb, hope to get answers tomorrow. i was disturbed by what happened with wells fargo, what i felt wells fargo was doing to their customers. i don't know if you saw when the ceo of the company came before the house financial services committee a year or so ago i was

on. i want to know is, cfpb gets a lot of credit for fining wells fargo. my question, why did they miss it? what was happening here? so here we have elizabeth warren's dream of what agency is supposed to be, independence, ability to go anywhere, do anything, not worry about politicians. get free money from the federal reserve. don't have to worry about appropriations. they are given every single tool necessary i think, from outside looking in, maybe i find out something different tomorrow when i'm briefed on it, every tool necessary to prevent that from happening at wells fargo or discovering its. they did neither of those two things. the question becomes, can you really regulate out bad behavior. i don't think you probably can. are we going to fill an important role to make sure we're looking over the shoulder of folks taking advantage of consumers? absolutely. we'll continue in that function. at same time to think that the cfpb will prevent the next financial crisis is probably a

little naive. if it couldn't prevent wells fargo you have to worry about that. reporter: do you obligation beyond criticizing this organization as part of president trump's cabinet, what are you going to do to fill the void you just talked about? >> that is a fair question. going to find out why. i asked that issue today. folks here took it seriously. hope to get briefed tomorrow on the background of wells fargo and couple other things gone down last couple years, to find out what went wrong, if anything went wrong. figure out how we can fix that, so we can stop that kind of stuff next time. that is what any good director would do in these circumstances. >> two more questions. reporter: anybody who hasn't asked a question yet? yes, ma'am. reporter: [inaudible] the was there any coordination between the white house and the counsel or any conversations before she put that out? >> not that i know of.

in fact i didn't even know the doj was working on theirs when it came out. yes, sir, last question? reporter: would you rule out meeting with miss english? >> not, not at all. all right. thanks very much. we'll keep you in the loop if anything develops tomorrow. appreciate your time. david: there is a man in a hurry. melissa: that is delightful. david: this is one of the most extraordinary press conferences for a bureaucrat to give that i have ever seen. this guy has two full-time jobs. bring it into camera two if i can, i want to bring liz into the discussion and adam lashinsky, also my coanchor. i don't think we've ever seen anybody working for government, to take full-time jobs, director of omb, head of this agency he is trying to same somewhat, an agency, liz peek is watching this as well, agency accountable to no one. first of all, liz peek, how can you have a government agency regulates millions of people and

imposes fines of billions of dollars that is accountable neither to congress nor the executive? >> i think you can't is the answer. i think that is what we're seeing now. thankfully there will be a change obviously in the direction of this unaccountable agency. i think one of the things that he didn't mention, i think mulvaney did a great job explaining why the cfpb is unaccountable and should not be, when they do fine organizations like wells fargo, bring in $100 million. the money doesn't go to the treasury. the money sits in the puddle and basically goes wherever director mulvaney or cordray wanted it to go. that is ridiculous. like taxpayers finding out about these settlements for sex allegations, sexual harrassment allegations in the congress. melissa: yeah. >> one thing taxpayers don't like having their money go in the wrong place. that is one sign of all the dysfunction of this agency. melissa: he laid out really great points in plain english

what was wrong with this agency. he said number one, if they came after you and decided you were wrong and fine you, do whatever, you had literally no one that you could go to for redress. there was no one you could challenge it with, not even the president of the united states because he can only fire the person in charge for cause, not for that particular act. he said that was ridiculous. if you have agency not accountable, spending all that money, couldn't catch what happened with wells fargo, what is the point. adam, that was really compelling, no? >> i think david made, i agree he was, he was very compelling. he is not a bureaucrat. he is politician. clearly a very good one. i think he made his case very articulately. i think his point about wells fargo was disingenuous. melissa: why? >> police state with cameras in every room would have the ability to uncover every mistake, every piece of

corruption or malfeasance that happens anywhere. this bureau or agency, i thought that was interesting -- melissa: wells fargo was a huge, huge situation with many, many people who were opening up false accounts. they were trying to get rewards. there were some people in on it. you don't need a spy to figure it out. >> you needed "los angeles times.." >> in fact the way these things work, they tend to dribble out slowly and then all at once. in fact it was out there, in courts in los angeles before it became the bigger deal that it became. no one is perfect. that is not is at issue. if you listen carefully to mick mulvaney he said very cleverly we'll keep doing the work that dodd-frank legislated but he doesn't mean that he wants to disassemble this bureau. he is clear about that. david: let me get down to basics here that really ticked people off about this agency or bureaucracy, whatever you want to call it. they set their own salaries.

56 members of this bureau, 56 make more money than the chairman of the federal reserve. one of the things mick mulvaney said he will do a hiring freeze for next 30 days before he figures out they could possibly spend money. by the way, cordray, the guy who did this manuever on friday to try to trip up the president, he built this new headquarters for the building cost more per square foot to build than the trump tower. these guys are not only accountable to no one, they have their own budget. >> yeah. david: they decide what their own salaries are going to be. that is not right. >> there are sins of omission and sins of commission here. cordray built a bureaucracy. one of the things omission, there was no self-interest rule built into the cfpb. so cordray was running for office, possibly as long ago as three or four years ago. everything he did, including by the way putting in place a rule which thankfully has been reversed which would be absolute

home run for trial lawyers, could have led to his earning money just from the -- david: aside from cordray, liz, who is in charge of this agency? >> nobody. david: the great thing about what mick mulvaney said he challenged very basis this agency was formed. if you don't, if you have an agency that is regulating billions of dollars in our private economy and assessing fines on individuals, you have to have that agency accountable to someone, don't you, adam? >> the fact remains that this agency was a response to the financial crisis of 2008, as you know. all sorts of agencies, this isn't political, blew it. think fell down on the job and this was an effort to -- david: but those agencies that blow it are accountable to congress or the executive. this agency is not. that is failed problem with this agency. >> what i think is obvious, and i thought that your reporter made it very clear at the beginning, eventually the

administration will put its director in here no matter what happens with the court. mulvaney is right. david: no matter what happens with the court. no matter what happens with the next leader of this agency it still has the fatal flaw, liz, does it not. >> go to congress and change it then. >> congress has to fix this hopefully they will. unfortunately congress is busy at the moment. but this agency was brought in -- >> may get busier. >> it was brought in as response to the financial crisis. melissa: it couldn't even stop wells fargo. >> that is red herring. >> wait, wait, there are already six agencies overseeing banks. let's not pretend as elizabeth warren did from day one, that banks were not regulated. they had staff regulators on every floor of every bank. that is complete misconception sold to the american public by irate and self-interested politicians like liz warren. melissa: we got to go. we could stay here fight all day. thanks to all of you. david: one thing, even if they get rid of the agency, they have

a building that costs more than trump tower. they set up this bureaucracy with your money. not directly. comes from the federal reserve. it all comes down to taxpayers, right? melissa: they're doing nothing positive. government gone wrong. it is everything -- david: i'm glad mick mulvaney is there. melissa: everything wrong with bureaucracy. disgraced senator al franken speaking to the press this afternoon, apologizing to women who accused him of sexual harrassment looking to get back to work and putting this all behind him but can he? karl rove weighs in next. that. do you have things you want to do before you retire? oh yeah sure... ok, like what? but i thought we were supposed to be talking about investing for retirement? we're absolutely doing that. but there's no law you can't make the most of today. what do you want to do? i'd really like to run with the bulls. wow. yea. hope you're fast. i am. get a portfolio that works for you now and as your needs change. investment management services from td ameritrade.

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>> some women and one is too many, who feel that i have done something, disrespectful, and that hurt them. for that, i am, i am tremendously sorry. it is going to take a long time for me to regain people's trust. but, i, i hope that starting work today, that i can start to do that. melissa: senator al franken, speaking to the press today, apologizing after multiple women came forward, accusing him of sexual misconduct. but he is not stepping down from his position. here now to react is karl rove, former deputy chief of staff under president george w. bush. he is also a fox news contributor. so what struck so many people, when they heard that, and i heard people here in the studio saying at same time, they felt i did this, and i'm sorry, they felt that way. that is not an apology.

that is not, that is like, if i offended you i'm sorry. that is, that is not, it is not an apology and i think most of america hears that. how he is doing so far in your opinion, karl? >> not too well. i think you're right. it is, i'm sorry if you were offended to behavior that wasn't inappropriate and wasn't, you know, out of the norm. i mean -- >> i hug a lot of people, take a lost pictures. >> yeah. exactly. and, look, also, it is a little bit disingenuous, detracts from the thing that started all this, enforcing his intentions upon a celebrity. insisting that they practice a kiss, that they were going to use in a uso skit. and then, acting in terribly inappropriate way. and then afterwards, taking a, childish, infantile, insulting

photograph of him, on an airplane while woman in question was asleep, as if he was massaging her upper chest. i mean, al franken, al franken, he would rather be talking about, i tend to hug people, than the original incident that brought all this to our attention. melissa: so, another comment that didn't really pass the smell test for people out there, nancy pelosi. listen to this. >> was it one accusation? was it two? there has to be. john conyers is an icon in our country. he has done a great deal to protect women. melissa: he has done a great deal to protect women. then the parade comes out of people who were degraded, and you know treated horribly. one of the biggest problems here of course is that nancy pelosi has always fashioned herself, someone who is champion and protector of women. when she comes out and says that in the face of the facts the

public has heard, it is also like al franken claims to be on side of women, not really apologizing what he did. what comes of all of this, karl? >> it is in a way, nancy pelosi's leadership, was, she had two demands on her. one was to do something about the terrible accusations against congressman conyers. and at same time, ease this senior democrat, ranking democrat on house judiciary committee out of his position. what she did was inartful. she declares him to be an icon, praising him to the skies at same moment, at same moment, you have to leave your position as ranking member for the democrats on the house judiciary committee. certainly there was more artful way for her to have said something about him, while pushing him out. it just shows the duplicity and a little bit, more than a little bit of hypocrisy going on here. melissa: you say the right word.

this is all about hypocrisy. that is so much really frustrating, disgusting to so many people out there. i heard it equally on all sides. they pivot and point to the person on the other side who is also done something disgusting. that too is not one of the defenses that works very well. would you tell people to stop doing that? >> yeah. because, look, all these people who were defending bill clinton, having an affair with a white house intern barely into her 20s, in a hallway outside of the oval office, all those democrats who were quick to defend him, went after roy moore, appropriately. they're finding ways to defend, many of them congressman conyers and senator franken. a pox on all their houses. president clinton was wrong to what he did in the oval office. senator franken was wrong to what he did admitted to. judge moore in my opinion, i

find the women accusers of him, highly credible, even though he is republican and conservative. congressman conyers, i think we'll hear, from what friend tell me on capitol hill, we're likely to hear a lot more, going back a lot longer time about his antics. these are people in position of public trust. they based and misbehaved badly and ought to be held to account. melissa: karl rove, thank you. see you soon. >> thank you. david: well, meanwhile, there is this huge showdown over tax cuts. melissa: right, very important. david: we'll talk about that. president trump preparing to make a visit to capitol hill as republicans are making last minute changes to that senate bill, to try to get everybody on board. next republican senator, john kennedy. if you heard this guy before. you want to hear him again. he is about the best person to listen to on capitol hill, just how many of gop colleagues are on board. and, if we are going to get the big tax cut this year.

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david: senator steve daines of montana. echoing concerns of senator ron johnson, small businesses should get a big tax break as small corporations. can gop leaders unite to get tax reform done? senator beyond kennedy, member of the senate budget and senate judiciary committees. what do you think about senator daines now? he is suggesting as ron johnson did, that small businesses are not getting enough of a break. do you think he could be brought into the fold? >> yes. and let me tell you what is going on. this is a solid bill. could it be improved? sure. that is with we're in the process of doing. and we'll do right up until it is time to start voting. how can we make the bill better. but at some point, this week, i hope, we should have done it last week, but at same point this week, the music stops and we have got to vote.

and what i say to my colleagues is. i think they're all good faith trying to make the bill better. david: right. >> but once we finish this process this week, if somebody votes against this bill, just because it doesn't have every thing they want from the toy store, they ought to be ashamed of themselves. they ought to hide hair heads in a bag. let me be clear here. i think all my colleagues are in good faith. i'm making suggestions myself. david: right. >> but at some point, we need to vote this week, and we've got everything we need. it is now, we're going to find out if we have what it takes. david: senator, there are ways to tweak bills and then there are are some things are intractable. people have opposition to do it. ron johnson, senator daines, have issues can be tweaked. >> of course they plan. david: look at -- susan collins, she seems to have more serious difficulties. do you think you will bring her

on board? >> i hope so. i will not tell susan how to vote. i want her to follow her heart. i want her to say respectfully, take your brain with you. this economy, no reasonable person can be proud of this economy. we tried everything that president obama wanted to try. we did stimulus spending. we lowered interest rates. we did quantitative easing out the wazoo. we did everything other than what we should have done. that is tried to cut people's taxes. and, especially for the middle class. you know the last time, the federal government did anything for the middle class in america, it was like never. this bill, this bill is going to help them. it will help every business. and it, i think it will add half a point to gdp. it's a solid bill. david: before we go. we have only 20 seconds. the opposition senator collins and jerry moran has with the bill. that they don't want the obamacare mandate to become part

of this, removing the obamacare mandate on individuals. do you think that stays when the vote comes to the full senate? >> i hope so. i think it's a good idea. and, i don't think we ought to be fining people, punishing people, for not buying insurance they can't afford. and they're mostly poor people. david: but if it comes down to that, if susan collins says the only way you have my vote, if you get rid of this, would you be okay with that? >> yes. if we get there. i think susan is whip smart, very bright. i think she will eventually see the wisdom of leaving it in. david: john kennedy always a pleasure to talk to you. you're very frank and to the point. we really appreciate having you on. come see us again. >> thanks, guys. david: love that guy. melissa: right to the point. if you want that in, yes i would. there you go. president trump trying to drain the swamp but looks like there are major drains on our

wallet in washington. we're breaking down the most outrageous parts of government spending. that's next. ♪

[laughter] melissa: funny because it is really depressing, that graphic you saw there. with all the talk of tax reform there is not a lot of talk of cutting spending, have you noticed that? one senator may have found about $500 billion to trim from the budget. it is part of this year's report on government waste, called federal fumbles. it was released today. fox news contributor, "wall street journal" editorial page deputy editor, boy, that is a long title. dan henninger is here now. i don't want to depress people with this list. what it is for everyone out

there, it is fodder talking to liberal friend, why taxes, telling you we have to pay more taxes, you can point to wonderful things like, i love the 30,000-dollar nea grant for a production of doggie hamlet. did you see that one? >> i missed that one. melissa: 19 doggies. they go out as humans yelling, running towards very confused sheep. it happened in new hampshire. it was based on shakespeare but there was no dialogue. no way to know what was going on. and for that, they got $30,000. >> i'm sure, the grant application makes perfect sense at time. it all does add up. senator lankford has in fact toted it up to the incredible figure. you know, we have tried this. we have been through this some times before. remember way back in the 1970s, '80s, senator proxmire with his golden fleece award. melissa: yeah. >> there was the grace commission on waste in government, 1984. even bill clinton's

administration had reinventing government effort in 1993. government never gets reinvented. >> it just gets bigger. >> it gets bigger. the good news, calvary finally arrived in the presidency of donald trump. melissa: yeah. >> i mean the deregulation taking place across the government, some which senator lankford notes in his study is extraordinary. i think finally we arrived at point. this is one of the reasons we had this election last year. choosing between the democrats and hillary clinton, republicans and donald trump, there was a choice there. now you're seeing it in the deregulation that trump administration is executing. melissa: to be clear, it is not a partisan issue. when you look at the waste, look at your money being thrown down the drain, when you could use it to educate your family to anything out there. both republicans and democrats who are wasting a ton of money, this is about draining the swamp. when you hear these things, this fish has three spines.

they have spent $2.6 million, just to study how this stickback adjusts in continuing temperatures no matter what ocean you put it in. they want to know how. >> right. melissa: worth my tax dollars with, potholes, bridges crumbling. you have your own bills you have to pay. >> how a government with a federal budget well over three trillion dollars can you possibly put your hand in identify something like that? the government now is simply so large, so huge, so pervasive, these sorts of things simply slide by. melissa: they do. >> it all adds up. melissa: a billion dollars in equipment they can't find. don't know where it nice pretty soon you're talking real money. melissa: we got to go. we'll be right back.

>> i think it is wrong to have a completely unaccountable federal bureaucracy. i think it's completely wrong -- by the way, i'm just learning about the powers that i have as acting director.

they would frighten most of you. david: wow. it scares me that you have a bureaucracy that is totally unaccountable to us, the taxpayers. melissa: this is exactly what's wrong in washington. but they're going to fix it. risk and reward starts now. >> i've let a lot of people down. everyone who has counted on me to be a champion for women. there are no magic words that i can say to regain your trust, and it starts with going back to work today. there are some women and one is too many who feel that i have done something disrespectful and have hurt them. and for that, i am tremendously sorry. i'm going to have to be much more conscious, much more careful, much more sensitive. this will not