love steve win and stick with the indexes. >> you are watching the place for business. you are watching fox. >> democrats are winning the message over the gop tax-cut plan, they say it is a giveaway to the rich and not just the mainstream media, new polls show more americans - some say it will lower middle-class americans even more than the rich so who has it right? i'm david asman. let's focus with elizabeth mcdonald, rich carlson, sabrina shafer, you are the tax expert -- will this make the rich

wrong? >> the way it has been done, that side of the argument, the government benefits people get, and they get more government benefits, and doubles the standard deduction, it would increase the number of people who don't pay federal income taxes. the fact remains that 1% pay 40% of income tax revenue. they are the ones paying the taxes so they get the tax cuts. ainsley: you have a lot of problems with this tax bill, a lot of people do but messaging that it is going to just help the rich and not the middle-class, is that wrong? >> i think it is wrong. i have my problems i will come back to but it is investor

friendly and that is good. a lot of people invest in the stock market, more than most people realize, through their 401(k) or pension fund so it is possible for those people and we will see a higher rate, wages go up, employment is down and corporations will have more money. >> the tax foundation, the latest version of the tax bill, the senate version of tax cuts will increase the after-tax, in every taxpayer group in 2018, the bottom 80% of taxpayers would see an increase in after-tax income ranging from 1.1 to 1.9%. >> that is worrisome. i have heard republican lawmakers say there will be two income families in the middle class who will be squeezed by this bill. putting the individual side -- >> the tax foundation is saying 80% of americans will get a

benefit. that seems pretty sweeping and against the logic of the democrats on this. >> putting individuals aside, there have been differences of opinion how individuals will fair. on the corporate side i'm enthusiastic, paul ryan and others finally recognize we are losing businesses overseas because we can't compete. that will help all workers whether you are for higher up, and wages, benefits and jobs. >> a lot of ceos, jpmorgan's ceo, the corporate tax cuts go through, a lot of expansion. more jobs for folks, and better

wages -- >> of companies are doing better off they are more likely to expand and hire, corporate tax cuts, and international ones that have a lot of overseas earnings, imposing new global minimum. what you are going to find unless they fix a very bad tax bill is a lot of corporations are going to pay higher rates. amazing that republicans given the chance to actually reduce the tax burden have designed a tax bill that will raise it on the most productive vehicle and those who invest in them. >> on friday we have unemployment figures, pretty good with the exception of wages, wages didn't go up as much of people were hoping so we do need a stimulus for wages and if corporations get the tax cuts and reinvest and hire more workers they will have to increase wages. that is a good thing, right? >> it is a good thing but the

problem, the optic that corporations rate is going to go from 35 to 20 or 22 or whatever the latest figure is, the middle-class will get nickels and dimes as a percentage comparison. we heard jamie diamond say this. i haven't heard a single company say as soon as we get this tax-cut we will raise wages, they are not saying that. >> the ceo of at&t said if we get a corporate tax-cut he will create 7000 jobs to build up networks but i hear what you are saying. tax cuts didn't get far enough, also it is worth noting that obama, john kerry, nancy pelosi, chuck schumer have supported or it is corporate tax reform getting the corporate rate lower to increase wages and create jobs. >> the optic don't look good for the individual.

corporations may get a end of the alternative minimum tax but individuals may end up stuck with it. this was originally designed in the 60s for a couple dozen people, now it's millions of people all over america. why should corporate tax-cut taxes cut in that area and not individuals? >> there is a lot of truth to that but i try not to get too angry because my taxes are going up but down the road, the headquarters of apple, getting $47 billion back, john, i hear john saying they will get that, that isn't right. it isn't right because people don't like blue states. a lot of people, the blue states are net contributors to the federal budget, new york and california put out more than they take in. to get a state and local income tax deduction is nothing but fair. >> you have the optics of simplification.

one of the ways this was sold when it was rolled out in april by the president's team was to simplify everything. ronald reagan actually spoke to that point when he was selling this tax plan. let's share that. >> the texas and has 14 brackets of tax rates from 11% to 15%. we would take a step toward an ideal system by replacing that with a simple three bracket system. >> you go from a lot to a few but the latest tax plan shows having just as many tax brackets with the new tax policy as the old. they are missing out on the ability to sell this with simplification. >> a huge deficiency and republicans for years talked about you should be able to do your taxes on the back of a postcard, this is not going to be the case. i am on the fence with what rich

is saying about the corporate tax rate, one thing in the survey out there is showing people are okay with wealthier and corporations getting tax breaks as long as they get something too. when corporations get tax breaks, that is good for many of us, just means more growth but if people in the middle are feeling squeezed at the same time you have a problem. >> this gets to your point, americans don't necessarily have something against the rich, this class warfare going on from the democratic side, looks like republicans have bought into it with this tax bill. if you have across-the-board tax cuts, more people go to middle-class, middle-class go to the rich, new entrepreneurs are born from the lower and middle class, everybody wants to get rich, there is nothing wrong with that. >> americans just elected a

billionaire president, they worship steve jobs, think the world of jeff bezos and republicans need to grow up. you get rich by achieving remarkable things, you can only achieve remarkable things in so far as people of means back to you. this tax plan tells the rich and the remarkable that we are going to tax you at higher rates. why elect republicans if they are going to do worse than the democrats? >> looks like -- class warfare stuff. >> that is what this, the linchpin of this, getting the biggest tax break, the middle-class, nickels and dimes. >> there is a bottom line here, that any tax cut is better than

we have now. >> taking a lot of money, look at the 5 rich districts in dc, republicans playing that game, get is animated as cpr dummies, they don't like that. >> first and last word, tax reform, gop planning to overhaul something else to stop your money from flowing into dc, raging wildfires leave

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francisco. more news at the top of the hour, now back to forbes on fox. >> after tax reform welfare reform, republicans are now laying the groundwork to overhaul welfare programs like food stamps and government housing which are through the roof and you say that could save -- save taxpayers more than tax cuts. >> it would be good for a lot of people currently on welfare.

sounds harsh but the reality is at work the other way. everything bill clinton to bring about welfare reform, this time what makes it different is a lot of welfare fraud is being done through disability insurance. half of the unemployed men are on prescription pain pills. we had to untie that gordian not. >> is rich just alluded to we have an experiment from the clinton years, 1996 president clinton initiated welfare reform to make people pay for the welfare they were getting and look what happened, 10 years following that reform welfare recipients went down by 67%, that is a huge success. >> no one wants to be on welfare. david: a lot of them.

>> this president when he was running for office said he didn't want to make cuts to medicare, medicaid, you should stand by that and if you want go after frog go after fraud but to kick people off is a bad idea. david: i remember in the 90s, they were kicked off, in the end, what is better is welfare rolls go down, and kids were receiving welfare in the government, child poverty decreased by a huge number. >> they tried to reform welfare, and socially and increased

toward helping those people depending on government. and messaging before then, they don't know how to talk about this, and human flourishing. david: not good at messaging but here is a message, the people in food stamps are out of control, 40, 45 million people on food stamps, rich was mentioning disability insurance is out of whack too. >> give them a government program, government can give you all sorts -- the government can give you all sorts of dollars that will enable you to work but cannot give you happiness. you are only happy if you are working and that is why it is crucial to get government out of this business because it enables

people to do that which makes them happy. david: welfare is an albatross the drakes people down. >> fdr said it is narcotic and can ruin the spirit of the american soul and jfk said the best welfare is a job. bill clinton footwork requirements in for welfare. obama did away with them. welfare exploded from 70 million to 46 million today. the system, equal to the s&p 500. david: it was a tough sell, clinton it republican congress didn't sell it to the people. right now you just have one party that is pushed, i don't think any democrat will be going along with donald trump on this. >> probably not. bill clinton had the advantage, nixon goes to china phenomena and on the other side of the aisle, this time around, it makes it a little different, a

drug addiction component. david: welfare reform now? >> what rich has brought up, and talked about it and done nothing, the opioid addiction, has not put his money where his mouth is on this. david: i have to be leave you are not going to get many democrats on board. is it possible to pass welfare reform without them? >> i doubt it. that is unfortunate, i hope we don't figure out a new way to get a new avenue to do things, and economic growth, i agree with bruce, no one wants to be on welfare. david: growth is the key, lauren simonetti, what have you got? >> college a budget brouhaha over the border. a government shutdown over illegal immigration and donald trump says people should be over

to sue over news reports that are dead wrong. is he right a wrong? david: we

heather: wildfires scorching homes and businesses in southern california just week after infernos char northern california. lawmakers are asking for for the

half billion dollars. our hearts go out to the folks out there. is this proof we have to get spending under control so we spend money on what really counts? >> i believe there should be ways we could plan better for disasters but times like this, people in california who are victims of floods, really care about spending, they just wanted to be resolved. >> our government spend some money on really good important things like keeping us all safe but a lot of money and stuff that is not that important, this is important. >> yes, it is important and it goes to the point of being a resilient society which we imagine we are and when we overspend, we make ourselves less able to bounce back. david: you grew up in southern california. people understand the risk, no question you know what you're getting into with earthquakes

and fires, but is there any role for the government in this? >> this is more than expected but sometimes we talk about the national debt and getting it under control and one of the reasons, national security and economic security and things like this happen and we want to be a nimble society responding appropriately. >> i have family in this area, i am a nervous wreck about this but john mccain pointed did out the government spent $290 million in federal programs that have expired for things like yoga classes for bureaucrats, we can stop that and help. david: what do you think? >> my concern about this is this is the reason we have a spending problem. we nationalize disasters, i'm not minimizing it, my parents and sister are out there but once you make every other state's problem a national problem you have major spending

issues. issues. david: our

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david: the names with their on money a bunch of tech stocks. >> saladye double-digit returns. david: what do you think? >> i would never bet against the macgigi. you have a basket of nimble stocks. what do you mean by that? >> it's a fidelity bond. i believe the stock market is kind of high and so i want something that is broad-based value-oriented and where people nibble companies. >> rich is right on this one because the tax cuts are not fully priced and are taken into account and the markets.

david: the point is to get the tax cuts the markets are going to pop up? watch out folks. that's it for "forbes on fox." thank you for watching and have a wonderful weekend. keep it right here. >> you think these guys avoided a government shutdown? only until december 22 and if democrats like minority leader chuck schumer don't get their way on illegal immigration all bets are off but is that a threat that schumer used to use? >> we believe strongly in immigration reform. we are shutting down the government and we are going to raise the debt ceiling until we pass immigration reform. he would be governmental chaos. >> so he's okay with it chaos now? i'm lauren simonetti welcome to cashing in. i cashing in for this week rachel, gerri willis and juan williams. welcome to the