right? catch the interview with attorney general on bill and sandra show tomorrow morning 9:00 a.m., up next, charles payne town hall. >> this is a fox business special presentation, live from networnew york city, "making mo" with charles payne. capitalism verse socialism, shee--charles payne. charles: you get a car, you get a car. >> you got it. >> good to see you. hey. >> thank you, thank you all very much. thank you. a town hall on capitalism and socialism, we'll get to questions from live studio audience, but let's meet folks answering the questions.

taking up socialism, bianca cunning happen. in 2014 she was a retail worker at verizon wireless store in broobrooklyn. and formed first ever union with the workers. you know this man. richard wolf taught economic since 1967 at universities in world. capitalism's crisis deepens. here to champion capitalism is man himself, her man cain. -- herman cain, he grew up in georgia in 40s and 50s, my man, joined by fox business own stewart varney. and on this network.

and if you watch the show, you know stewart likes to see he is a refugee of european socialism, he came to america decades ago and never looked back, throughout town hall other fox business stars will join us to speak about state of capitalism, and american dream, neil cavuto, and kennedy and lou dobbs, but before the, that, the question now, why the town hall and now, jackie has answer. >> good afternoon, capitalism versus socialism there is more at stake now than ever. but do people who look at socialism and ask, do they know what it means? >> a national debate is raging. on one side, tha capitalism, fre market economy. individual creation of wealth. >> here in united states, we are alarmed by the new calls to

adopt socialism in our country. >> government control of enterprise, wealth and share by all. >> democratic socialism to me is creating a government and a economy and a society which works for all rather than just want to 1%. >> 47% of americans say they would vote for a qualified presidential candidate who say socialist. >> putting democracy and society first. democrat emgrace same tired economic theories that is em-- improve riches millions. >> who is right? >> that question may be on the ballot in 2020. fox business is explores that today with this, town hall.

charles, let's get answers. charles: thank you so much. and audience, they have a lot of questions. let's start with alex, in school, your question? >> my question is, how can we call our country great or society memorial when a small number of wealthy people have more number that could be required to live a comfort able life, and several people lack basic human right as houses, health care and food. charles: herman you have been on both sides. >> i reject our assumptions, that a lot of people are not able to pursue the so call american dream. i am an example. i started when i was very poor, and because i was willing to take risks, i was willing to invest sweat, quit i, and to change jobs most of the time, i was able to climb of corporate ladder, i reject the.

that only a few people, 6 thingd thing. when rich people have a lot of money, do you know they spend a large percentage of their time trying to figure out how to give it away to causes they like. not causes that the government likes. charles: bianca, you worked at verizon, you thought it wa unfar system, you did something about it, you think there is one a to right this. >> socialistic. >> we believe in putting power in every day of americans. we want a government for the people by the people. charles: what would you say to herman in sense that he started out in 1940s, and georgia, we know circumstances were like. he propelled himself to a place, does that not exist any more. >> i believe that millennials are entering a difficult economic system. i congratulate herman for his

successes, but i believe that people should not have to put safety and security at risk. >> allow me to respond. that is another fallacy in thinking, never in history of world has the socialist model worked. i don't care -- now allow me to quigo i you an example, most pee point to venezuela, and they are in denial, and cuba, have you heard of the ussr,ure nighted socialist republican, they tried it for 70 years it failed, when they figured it out, 15 country went their separate ways. >> richard you taught all identify the worldoverthe worldn socialisms working. >> absolutely. the big question not to

understand what socialist societies have i don' grown, we as a nation we're in a big fight, initiate by president trump against china as you know. tariff wars, and that is a big effect, why because china is second most important economy in the world. >> what is first most. >> hang on fourth years ago, china was one of poorist. it use a powerful socialist economic model, to do one thing, grow quickly, stop being poor and become wealthy, they did a lot of things on the way -- let me finish, if you want an example of rapid economic growth. >> china took off on assumed capitalist connotations they took off when the leader said let a thousand flowers bloom,

they were capitalism enterprises that is when china started to bloom. have you been teaching kids in our school? >> i've been teaching kids a bit long irthaa bitlonger than you k on tv. tv. charles: let get everyone in. >> i want to respond, what you are asking about was income inequality that is what upsets you, i have a different view, i think this is a good thing you allow something people, by their own drives and talent the ability to become rich, the more rich people you allow the more growth in your economy, the more invasion, and more efficiency, and greater prosperity, i have 30 seconds, i got rich in 1990s by investing in stocks, i got rich, i got out, and put

that money to real estate in california, bought dozens of houses, did them up, wine refnem out, made a profit, i put it in to land. learn something, i visted in land, i have a profitable tree farm that employees people in a very depressed area where my wealth that i made my myself, i am looking after 6 kids and 9 grangrandchildren, i am not loog are in anything off you. charles: we have another audience number, wild g we'll go to him. >> so many policies we pursue and label as socialist are called more ca more accurate tel democracy in europe.

charles: richard, to you. you are not talking about democratic socialism, you talk about chinese style socialism that includes million -- concentration camps and stifling free press, and surveillance society, there are so many nuances that we hear now. which socialism do you think it is that will work? >> i didn't endorse chinese socialism. charles: it sounds like you did. >> i know. that is why i'm helping you. i am showing you statement of this kind of economy condition t create economic wealth is wrong, that is what china did. whatever you don't like about that society, rapid economic growth was ar achieved atlanta a

faster rate than in u.s., every last 20 years, average annual increase in output of people's republic of china was. in neighborhood of 10%. same time here it was 3%, not even close, it has to be a reality you face, unless you live in a fantasy world. charles: we should also put it in proper perspective, if i have a quarter in moi my pocket, i de it up. i am up 100%. do you think this is a race to get to a certain place? would you be willing to five up freedom of press?

democrat? a lot involve dictate dictatorsd give those up for a tighter income equality. >> socialism is an old term with a bad rep in my opinion, i am part of largest fastest growing organization of in country edemocratic socialives of america, we need, a country with so much exec it is not right family have to make a decision between puts food in the fridge or buying prescription drugs, we're try nothing work for a model that works for us. charles: do you ever wonder who excess came from. >> the workers. wealth was create the by workers, you cannot create that we'll on your own. >> i did. i did. >> workers -- >> they got it.

>> my i respond. live in atlanta, georgia, i don't buy your argument you have people who don't have food to eat, or shelter, you want to know why, there are homeless shelters, and foodbanks all over downtown atlanta, that some homeless people choose not to go to. so, you think that government will come in and use its clout in order to take from rich and give to the poor? >> push back on something, i mentor in new york city public schools, the schools that i mentor in almost 60 thousand of the kids are homeless. they are asking for community garden to bring food home, and they ask for room to spend the night in, they are afraid to sleep on the streets with their

parents. >> your claim -- your claim is also false. i grew up, taking biscuits to school for lunch with no meat, don't talk to me about people coming to school who don't have food and this and that, it is available if they work are in it like everyone else works for it. charles: let me -- one second. stewart came from u.k. there was a command and control. and you lived both differences. >> let me respond to the question it is valid, i do' a rational conversation about things, but i want talk tug truth, european socialism does not work, in 1970s, i tell you, i was england. the kolcold, steel, gas, stratid

electricity, all that and airlines owned and run by the government, they ran if scott grouninto theground. that was english socialism, i come here, i find a capitalist society you can work your way up the food chain, market thatcher who restored england to pro prosperity. you are still laughing, i don't know why. charles: it has been great, we'll keep it goiing, than goinu to stewart varney, when we come back, neil cavuto will join our panel. don't go away. i can't believe it.

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charles: we're back on a special "making money."

joining us now, neil cavuto, host of coast-to-coast, on fox business network, and your world mondays through fridays, and cavuto live. on fox news. at 17 was manager of a fish and chips while in high school. he interned at white house under jimmy carter. neil: thank you very much. they went out of business because of me. charles: i don't know if you are right person. neil: is stewart okay? charles: i gave him a shot of jack daniels on the way out. he will think about it. neil: a great segment. charles: back to audience, greg, on your mind? >> hello. so, my question for you is how close it we as a nation come to

achieving pure perfect capitalism, no tax, privatized industries, you know. we look at left and say, hey, socialism, communism, you o howr left request we go, look at how far right. charles: herman. we those that to you. there is a lot of versions of capitalism that exist from chronoeverything, icrony to everything el, is there such a thing at pure capitalism. >> no, because we have taxes, and laws and people who cheat. but the imperfect in capitalism this far away, a big gap.

c in tha capitallation stands fr competition, and s in socialism stands for state control. it has flaws that is why we have a system of laws and a court system, we have congress, the executive branch, the judicial branch. charles: richard? >> i want to take off from your point of different capitalism, that is what we teach in economic courses, a dream of what might be a capitalism, we teach it to student to show them how far from it we have been. it is a image, nobody in their right mind in not anything i have encounters imagine its as possible, it is an image, a desire, then you measure how far

from it you have gotten. realism capitalism is competition, when one company works again the other one of them wins and other one goes out of business ha is left, they buy it. competition produces its owny ingation, monopoly that is then a big problem so we call in the government, but notion of government as somehow sitting thering rather than itself being a product of the capital system is a bizarre way of imaging government having no causes and no shapers of what it is. charles: by same token, a lot of folks say, america should embrace norway and denmark where government is involved and taxes

are sky-high. but you don't see the inventions of iphones in denmark, i know they are happy people. but we're not seeing it. >> they are beautiful people. neil: i don't believe that capital in its perfect sense was ever without tax ac taxation. i will say, for all of capitalism flaws, it is still the best alternative out there. no type of system has enriched world to degree and rescued countries and rebuilt war tattered europe, that capitalism did we did. i think it can be seen as a lift or right issue, no socialist society created the things that we've created, no government run society has done for people what

we have done are in people, and created a provided a rag to riches that exist for as many people as our system, this is flawed? yes, do we have extremes, absolutely, do we over do it, absolutely. we regulate that and police, that we want to make sure that we have better standards for medicine and food that comes with it, out of your taxes too. >> and all gets down to fact none of the systems are perfect, humans are not perfect. donna? >> why are democrat politicians pro socialism and glamourizing it when they have seen history destruction. people are leaving those country to come to america. charles: i study african nations

that embrace socialism, the soviet union looked like it was on its way up, but i think it heart those nations, set them back decades, why has democratic party to a gr degree embraces oe form of soar socialism, do you could thathinkit would be new dc party. >> i don't think that democratic party is embracing socialism, pushing them to hold the agenda of people to be response testif. charles: on both sides, benefit so much from the status quo, you think that maybe they are giving it lip service. >> i think they are not interested in having a real

conversation. neil: conditio can't we have a conversation just about -- money in money out, you have promises that can't be paid for, you run out of money, however passionate, i just think that what is incumbent on the candidates running for president how are you going to pay are in that. i think we just have to do basic math. charles: i want bianca to respond, how are these ideas that you want going to be paid for. >> i think real question is, why we're complies en ent with chiln starving and people coming out

of school with debt. neil: how arey going to pay for it? to address that, how do you pay for it. >> bring democracy to every aspect of our lives, or work places, more so. unions are thing that will push the people at don't to share the profit with the workers who are generating that wealth. >> i'm sorry, i can't be quiet. you are shifting the subject which is how you get back to the arguments about socialism, you will go at it based on emotion, on you keep talking about people who don't have food to eat, we have find those everywhere here. what i'm saying it, any back to fundamental question, which is what we started before you shifted the subject, every one of these presidential democratic

wanna-be has one socialist judgedidea,the general public dt could creeping socialism into our society. charles: richard. we should ac acknowledge that general public is dissatisfied with capitalism, capitalism is doing something wrong to have this many people this disenchanted with it. >> i am not following herman and insulting general public. i think -- >> excuse me, sir, i am in middle of talking. >> i'm interested in find a solution to this question. for me solution is not having the government come in, this is old idea, that is what socialist in past thought, that is not where i am going, i want to go where bianca started to go. change the way businesses are

organized. that is where problem starts, every business is home -- let me finish of nondemocracy, a terrible small group of people at top, board of directors and owner make all key decisions. that is not fair we should not be surprised that people at top give themselves the lion's share of rewards at end, there is the problem socialism is the for me, a program to dem tries workplace, it should have been done at beginning of history of united states, we're 200 years late. bubetter late. >> good news, we're at peak of our earns. stock market all-time high, neil you this. >> thank you. >> kennedy, folks, she will join us town hall. and you will love kennedy

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we're back. joining us kennedy, you know her, host of her own show, 9 p.m. on fox business, and she appears on out numbered on fox news, kennedy was born in indiana, raised in oregon, she is a lic libertarian, and a big proponent ar for capitalism. kennedy: thank you. charles: you are ready? kennedy: let's do this. charles: nicholas. >> so i'm a college student in new york city studying business on college campus hard to bring republican ideas to a debate being being shot down or a slew of slurs, how do we ensure that students, across the country, are able to learn real differences, and benefits that

capitalism brought to america through the first 243 years of existing. charles: professor? >> i've spend a lifetime preaching to do that, university to be a place where ideas of capitalism can be defended by people who believe in it, and ideas of socialism defended and put forward by people who believe in it but 90% of colleges in u.s--united states,d celebrate capitalism, and none who celebrate socialism, herman has given himself. i was born in ohio, parents had nothing, i ended up for a long story, going to harvard as an under graduate, stanford in middle, i finished in yale. at no time in my education, 10 years in ivy league did anyone

stabbestand in front of me and n argument why socialism is good, i heard down countless debates, but it was presumed to be this is best system since sliced bread. and alternative is not anything to wor worry about. your situation, is the very scarcest rea reality, the one ti described is bad legacy of cold war. charles: with all due respect, i want to bring kennedy in, i heard this from thousands of young adults. kennedy: yes, and not just we have to giv divorce ourselves fm an idea of two party system, you kind of rail against democrat party and establishment. if this extreme by --

bifurcation, they have so much in common of doing such a great disservice, i like too think in terms of freedom that is more bilibertarian. and which you talk about freedom are you more inclusive, you talk to individuals, not trods up to two separate groups wo we hate , i think it is good you are getting a degree in business, it means have you practical application of that degree. i liked being in university setting for vast majority of people who are languishing in college which are propaganda factories that are run by leftists who want to indoctrinate, safe yor your mon,

don't necessarily go to college until you want to know what you want to study, i did not go to college until i was 28 years old, i had two careers in broadcasts and radio and television, i went and got a scholarship to ucla, go bruins. charles: up next we have mohamed. >> so, can i stand. i want to ask to their thoughts to desire bilto -- desirabilityd feasibility of america to a socialist game work. >> yeah. i think that is a good question. to me and my mind, i feel like this country has priorit priorie

call capitalism over democracy. people are not responsive to candids or political parties, they are responsive to issues, they have real issues they want to see addressed, there are a lot of examples of socialism gone bad, i am concerned that america is great at a lot of things, i think we can do socialism better than any other country. charles: how do we restructure it. it is like changes a tire on a moving mack truck. kennedy: i have a question, when will you admit that things have gotten better, that the problem, this is the worst time in there are children starving, this not true, this is best time to be alive, people are liv living lo, capitalism has lifted billions of people out of extreme poverty. do you want people inic poverty, i don't, i want women and

children ask young people to have ideas they insert in market place, when you will admit that things are better, that is you talk about systems and you talk about strata, and you abuse this -- >> a luxury to have this conversation. many parts of world you could not. >> we have highest wage gap today than after the great depression and recession, while you are saying that capital simp -- capitalism is working we're saying it not translating to people a actual. kennedy: when you will admit -- socialist use the term living wage, why would you stop a gain dollars why not stop at 19 or 100 an hour, go big. charles: i want to get you in. we're getting tight on time. herman, you work at federal reserve you rall also ran a majr

corcorporation. >> you can't allow me to give you two statistics. as imperfect as capitalism is, the united states of america represents nearly 25% of world gdp compared to everyone else, we have less than 5% of world popopulation, kennedy is right. that young man's question was never answered, when you asked, when are people going to tell people what it will cost, mo one has said that, that because cost are absolutely unbelievable and unrealistic. charles: richard. >> answer. about how could you get a situation where the ideas are

acceptable. to teach -- >> -- >> but you to do you get people to will to be talk about it. >> by force. >> example. kennedy: that is the only way. that is it. >> that is hi historical nawns e things you said. >> whenever you are applying group think that is using force. >> no one is using force. >> that is it. >> you don't want me to speak. kennedy: i hear the same thing over and over, but that's answer. you can sidestep it all you wa want. >> a little bit of american history in 19 16 socialist party

ran a candidate for president, got 600 thousand votes, 3%, 4 years another candidate, he got 4% of the vote. 4 years later, socialist ran another, candidate. 1924 he ran for president, he go the 5 million votes, 17% of the total vote, at that point capitalist of it country got frightened and for good reason, and came down on socialism with the same kind of i did -- hystel denunciation you are listening to here, we have to come out of hundreds of years. we're behind in the area, it is in our history, we have been able to do it we've been there. charles: great point. kennedy: then world war ii, the end. charles: fdr implemented a lot

of policies. >> right. charles: kennedy love you, thank you. >> thank you all. charles: a quick break, then lou dobbs will get on this debate, woo. sir, you're a broker. what do you charge for online equity trades? uh, i'll look into it. (phone rings) lisa jones! lisa: (on phone) hey carl, what are you charging me for online equity trades? (nervous chuckle) lisa: and do i get my fees back if i'm not happy? like a satisfaction guarantee? ugh. schwab! lisa: oh right, i'm calling schwab.

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charles: welcome back to fox business special town hall on capitol hillis--capitalism and u dobbs is host of "lou dobbs tonight," we was named tv premier business news anchor by the "wall street journal." [applause] lou graduated from harvard, dise agredegree in economics grew upn

texas and idaho. >> thank you. charles: we start with fiona. >> hello, corporate executives answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stock holders make basic economic decisions that -- other people? >> you would want to go, you were fired for doing that. >> for organizing. >> do you feel that system is that way, there is a handful of people making decisions, it would b better. >> every year, i work for verizon are in 6 years, i made less and less money. they were coming in making arbitration decisions that affected my live, we came together and organized.

we won better wages and working conditions, people are retallitied gain for using their right -- retaliated against, they using there are right to organize. charles: lou, people say, thees people arthesepeople are paying, obscene amounts of money. >> they are right. fact is that ceo pay is out of line. it is a a anomaly with an amerin history, since 1993 we made stock options. reportable but not deductible. we have changed metrics here. the worker, the employees, is watching manager am soar --

memberment soar in competition, it should be much less than 500 to 1. historically, number is anywhere 20 to 25 times as much. and that has to be addressed, it should be addressed by the way stake holders including people who own the companies that is shareholders, idea that this is an alignment between shareholders and management that is nonsense. charles: richard you talking about everyone at corporation having a voice would that work as well, would it be chaos? you need precise decision making. >> most successful economy in europe is germany. for last 30 years, german law has pro -- prescribed following. that tells you something about meemedia, law in germany is falling, every corporation with 2000 or more workers must put 49% of people onboard of deck

directorred elected by the workers, that puts a worker representative on every board of director, multiples, they are participating in planning, they know what is being done unless secret efforts are made to go be around them, has it reduced chaos in germany, not at all, their recovery from 2008 depression was better than ours and had levels of unemployment. notion you could have not worker participating was canceled by reality of one other capitalist country have managed to do wu rear far -- we're far behind. charles: lou is from one extreme to another. lou: i don't know that the place that actually exists in germany, they have extraordinary social cost that impede their economic growth. they have a mercantilist trade

economy. they live in large measure on u.s. deficits, their surpluses as a result. germany is not a model for economic growth vitality or innovation, it a model for mercantilism and international trade, hardly a model in my opinion for vibrant progressive economy. >> give you an example. charles: one second, we're running out of time. we want another question. michael with next question. >> we recognize there are human rights like education, health care, housing food. they should be available to everyone, recognizing they exist as rights here, because people fought ther are in them -- for , because socialist fought there are them long and hard. >> herman?

>> i would agree with you those are basic human rights that people are entitled to, our public school system provides free -- not free education paid for with taxpayers poll dollar, socialists' to move it up another level, there are issues just k-12 because of some of the ways that things are done, many people take kids out of public schools, because they see the inequities there. i don't agree they are some of the basic rights -- i do agree they are some of basic rights but i do not believe that government should be pay are for it. >> i respond to notion -- one thing germany does with its dollars they do the following all costs of college, in germany

are zero. for anyone who went to germany to take a college career, could go there and they would not be required to pay anything. why? because in germany, the idea is best way to develop productivity and invasion -- innovation and growth is to given a chance to a free education, they are doing real well with it, they would not recognize the description of germany they fought for these things, and even conservative government of mrs. merkel could not resist when they insisted be done. lou: there is no such thing as a human right, there are in as you outlined yourself, rights this this country created in its constitution and have been fought for by americans. there is no exception, no right

to that is because we arrived on this conthis cony continent ando right because we happy to be human beings, it should make it more important for everyone to understand what is working what is not working, in the world. we know what is not working, that is socialism, their are rare exceptions. there is no close second to what has been as achieved by american capitalism. and that has not only created world's only super power. the most powerful economically. militarily and any other way you wish to apply in metric, there is -- this is capitalism it

works, then venezuela, cuba and china, china is a country that america built. charles: do you worry if government did everything we would not have emphasis to do thicks that makthings that make. >> i think we look at country that provide basic human needs to their people, we see is they have opportunity to pursue a career path that makes them happy, and fits their skill set. we have people here stuck in dead end jobs, they are afraid of losing healthcare, they can't transition to different career paths and they can't start small businesses. i think what we see is that people work harder to grow the economy, when they do something they are passionate about.

>> number one, you never hear socialist talk about costs, they don't talk about risk. they never talk cost or risk. those two words do not appear in their narrative. when someone asked the question, what will it cost they shift the subject, they want to ignore fact they are unaffordable. lou: let me quote milton friedman he said, those who want freedom and equality and make that a priority, are likely to have neither. those who would put equality above free freedom will lose fr, and those who put freedom above equality will have opportunity for both. charles: thank you very much.

we're very fast, i hope everyone that found their helpful. i want to thank everyone at home for watching, thank you to our audience thank you very much. thank you, richard, bianca, herman cain, lou dobbs, kennedy from neil nile, an neil cavuto , i am charles payne. we will continue this conversation. thank you very much. -♪ just like any other family ♪ the house, kids, they're living the dream ♪ ♪ and here comes the wacky new maid ♪ -maid? uh, i'm not the... -♪ is she an alien, is she a spy? ♪ ♪ she's always here, someone tell us why ♪ -♪ why, oh, why -♪ she's not the maid we wanted ♪

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lou: good evening, everybody. making america safe again, president trump laying out his plan to overhaul our broken borders, our broken immigration system and our broken borders. >> the proposal begins with the most complete and effective border security package ever assembled by our country. this plan was not developed i'm sorry to say by politicians. it was designed with significant input from our great law enforcement professionals to detail what they need to make our border, which is 100% operationally secure.