read that story which is a perfect set up don't you think for next hour, delaney and de blasio coming? a great lead-in. melissa: the flies on the bagel, is that a comment on new york city? here's bulls & bears. david: we have a 2020 for you on this special hour of bulls & bears today speaking with new york city mayor bill de blasio and former maryland congressman john delaney. we will address taxes, health care, immigration, and a lot more, and we thank you for joining us. i'm david asman. joining me on the panel today is carol roth, christina partsinevelos, gary cutbaum. mayor de blasio saying he wants to tax the rich in the last debate. in fact he made it into the website. i would venture that a majority

of the panelists here would be against you on that, mr. mayor, i want to give you a forum to make your case. why do we need to tax the hell out of the rich? >> thank you for that. thanks for the opportunity to be with you. i want everybody to look at the details of the plan at tax the hell.com. it is a website. it is provocative on purpose. for 40 years, the people in this country, middle class people, working class people, have been either stuck economically or going backwards. that's the larger truth to what we experienced. i go to iowa, many states, people are talking about their frustration and concern the next generation is going to do worse than they did. part of what we need to address is the reality is small number of people have gotten richer and richer, paying less and less in taxes. david: that's in dollar terms not in percent, because the top 1% pay about 37% of all income taxes. >> so this gets to the essence of my point. you're comparing recent years. i'm comparing american history going back a little bit farther

to the time of john k. kennedy and dwight eisenhower, when we had a much higher marginal tax rate for wealthy folks. honestly it was a time when this country was working for middle class people and working class people much more effectively in a fair way. the federal government had the resources to invest in infrastructure. it was a time of great infrastructure development, research, science. it was a time when the american economy was booming and growing and there was relative shared prosperity. i think there's a direct correlation to having the kind of tax level that gives the federal government that opportunity. one more thing, i'm someone who believes one of the first things the democrats should do in the white house is repeal those tax trump cuts -- excuse me, those trump tax cuts for the wealthy and corporations and restore the deduction which i think was a matter of fairness for over hundred years for people in this country. i think it needs to be brought back. >> mayor, it is carol roth.

building on that, you said things like there's plenty of money in this country but it's in wrong hands, whether it's oprah, jeff bezos or a small business owner that's built up the equity of his or her business over decades and decades, what is it that you think gives the government the right to demonize that success, to take away that money, and to give it to somebody else who doesn't earn it? >> well, honestly, i believe there's nothing demonizing about making sure there's fairness. look, we have got a country right now where for a huge part of our population, it is not working the way it used to. i'm someone who actually believes in an american dream where prosperity is shared, where there's an opportunity for a huge huge number of americans to get ahead and to make the next generation have even greater opportunity. we don't see that now. one of the reasons is the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the few. we're not talking about small business owners. we're talking about the super rich. and for them, we have to be

clear in my view, it's time to pay your fair share of taxes. that tax rate's been going down and down and down. the federal government has helped them to accumulate that wealth. i think the vast majority of american people, including a lot of republicans, independents, want to see a fairer tax system, where more is asked of those who have done very very well. >> since we're talking about money. i want to bring up healthcare. you very recently said that all undocumented new yorkers should receive healthcare. how is that going to stop people then from swarming into the city -- and i know this is a policy that's discussed often in california as well. how are you going to stop people from coming here, taking advantage of the system, putting the burden on everyone, and then adding to our costs since we're talking about that? >> i get this question in many areas. this is a city that believes in providing support for people in different ways. we found that's never happened honestly. very few people -- all the research we have done, honestly. i'm going on the first point.

people who are documented have not come here in search of quote unquote benefits. we have never seen that historical historically. right now this is a city -- >> it's new york. >> look, i'm proud to say on my watch we've added 500,000 jobs, most jobs in our history, highest population, the lowest crime, a lot of good things happening, but it is not a place everyone is going to move to for a lot of reasons. i want to go to the essence of your question. i know it sounds scary when you say it first. why should undocumented people get healthcare? first, there's 11 or 12 people here part of our economy, part of our community, they are not going anywhere. that's the reality. when they get healthcare, they are going to the emergency room. we are paying anyway. they are getting healthcare the worst way, the most expensive way. we don't want anybody who lives in the united states of america to end up in the emergency room if they get care the right way. >> you are saying we are, but may as well let them come in; right? >> not at all. i'm saying a bigger truth. i believe this in my heart. we're having to debate what's happening in the border right now. we are missing what's happening

in our 50 states. 11 million, 12 million people who are here, part of our community, that happened decades ago. bluntly it's been accepted de facto by many people, in real y reality, if you have a lot of people in your community who don't have healthcare, it's a great way to spread disease, and they get the most expensive way to get care, the emergency room. >> one thing new yorkers can unite on is the crisis happening with the homeless, right? it's only gone up under your tenureship. we have over 61,000 people that are homeless here and your marquee program thrive nyc has spent millions of dollars and we haven't seen any tangible results. how can you account for that with big government? we haven't seen anything because it's in agencies as well as contractors who have gotten the money >> that's not accurate. you raise two very different realities. they actually don't connect in a

lot of ways. i will try and break it down real quick, david. first of all, the reason we have more homeless folks nowadays is not mental health. it is economic. that the cost of housing went up in new york city, consistently, even during and after the recession and wage levels did not. we have a lot more families homeless. folks who have no mental health problems at all. we do shelter them in this city. that's why you don't see the number of people on the streets you say unfortunately in some of the west coast cities comparatively. we have a lot more work to do. i'm not saying it is an acceptable situation. at least we're able to give people humane situation. 100,000 people that went into shelter out of shelter and went into affordable housing. we have an aggressive outreach effort to get people off the street. mental health, this country does not have a mental health plan or strategy, but 1 in 5 american adults has some kind of mental health challenge. do you want to hear about mental health? go to iowa where people talk

about it all the time because their clinics were cut back in rural areas and folks are struggling from lack of care. we're trying to destigmatize the challenge of mental health. we have a simple point of access that anyone can call, mental health challenge, substance abuse challenge and get help and get connected to an appointment. david: i have an anecdote. there's some very disturbed people on the streets, to kevin's point. very disturbed people and sometimes when you try to get the police to intervene and they say we can't do it because the laws prevent us. don't we need to change some of the laws that may -- that were went to protect the mentally ill but end up in endangering innocent citizens? >> that's a very fair question. i would argue that we need to use the laws we have better. if someone is a threat to themselves or others, they can be taken off the streets. we do that routinely. i think there are scenarios where we can do that.

to get people off the street and keep them off the street, you need an intense level of engagement to win them over, to get them convinced. we've been able to do with that several thousand people. the fact is we're training our police now to work with social service providers to get out there and more aggressively and creative get people off the street. david: mayor de blasio, this is gary, from very low tax florida. i do understand and know your mantra about taxing the hell out of wealthy. but don't you think your tax plan also taxes the hell out of people that want to become wealthy as they move up the ladder. every time they move up, they're getting taxed more and more. if that's the case, aren't you worried that eventually we're going to start running out of wealthy and you're going to end up not getting anything from anybody? >> no, gary, i appreciate the question. look at my plan, tax the hell.com. all the details. it is real simple. if you're a working class person or a middle class person, your taxes are not going up.

we're actually asking for folks who have done very well, again, often with the help of the federal government, to pay their fair share, and that's how we're able to make some of the investments we need in this country. the irony is what i'm calling for, is what was the reality under eisenhower and kennedy, and it works. i'm not -- by any means i don't want to see any greater burden on working class or middle class people. i think they have been taking it on the chin for decades. if you ask people in this country, do you think the federal government is working for you as a middle class person or working class person, or do you think the federal government is working for the wealthy? you would see clearly americans across the spectrum think the wealthy are getting a free ride from the federal government. that has to change. that doesn't create a strong country and a unified country if people think only a small percentage are getting real help from the federal government. david: you know, you mentioned john kennedy twice now. >> yes. david: john kennedy was the one who said a rising tide lifts all boats.

okay? he was a big tax cutter. he cuts those eisenhower tax rates very dramatically. he had a growth spurt as a result of that. a lot of people say that's what's happening right now. for the first time in my lifetime and i know your lifetime, as well, we have more jobs than we have people looking actively for jobs. 1.6 million more jobs than job seekers. how can you suggest that it's a bad economy, when the jobs market is so good? >> no, i actually would not say it is a bad economy per se. it is a very good point to say economy versus quality of life. i've talked so many people around the country about the life they are living, and for so many people, it's filled with debt -- i'm talking about middle class people. you used to think middle class meant secure. they don't feel secure any longer. they have a ton of debt. they have often a lot of challenge dealing with healthcare bills, again trying to help their kids. how many american young people in their 20s living at home right now? this is a massive phenomenon because they can't afford to

live on their own. families are trying to help the next generation, but it is a struggle. it is not about a quote unquote bad economy, it is about a quality of life. david: you have to admit the job situation is very good. >> i'm happy about it but i want it to be better, a country that works for working people. ask union members, ask working class people, middle class people, is this the quality of living they aspire to? i think you would hear a lot of people across the spectrum ideologically say they feel stuck. they don't feel like the last decades they have been able to move forward. we're going to need more than a short-term good economy to get through this challenge. >> you talked about the economy. we always talk about the economy. the concerning thing is whether this will be a sugar high, and whether this is going down after a little while. this is putting out a thought there. >> i agree with you. >> we don't need to agree with me on anything. >> i'm happy to agree with you. >> the concerning though is still the economy, you running

for president going forward, how are you going to make sure that the strength in the economy continues if you are going after the corporate tax rate? i'm quoting. you just said it was simple. i looked at your website it is not simple when you are adding a wealth tax, income tax, inheritance, ceo pay ratio tax, wall street tax, to me that's a little confusing and i think to the average person too that could be the case. so how as you going forward should you be president make sure that you can maintain this when you're increasing the corporate tax rate and not really appeasing corporate america and wall street? >> okay. well, i don't think any president is here to quote unquote appease corporate america or wall street to begin with. >> you can parse my words, but we have a business audience right now. >> respectfully it is an important construct. i'm not trying to make any light of your words. i think it is important to recognize for right now for many many americans, i would say a vast majority, they feel exactly that the government serves wall street and big corporations and not working people. so i'm saying something different. when you look at that tax plan, you see it discourages the habit

of massive ceo pay, for example, which by the way is a fairly new phenomenon in our country. it used to be ceo pay was a lot closer to the pay levels of average workers, and this country did pretty well with that reality. it discourages the kind of activity that creates more and more division. one of the things i talk about is social fabric. i don't think you're going to have a successful country and a country that is secure if people feel it's only serving the few and if they don't feel in fact they can ever break out of that. so that's why i think the tax plan actually helps us to have a more unified circumstance. david: mayor, we have more to go, if you don't mind. mayor de blasio, what does he think about the mysterious death of jeffrey epstein. coming up, 2020 democrat, we have another, john delaney is joining us for yet another interview. >> the full spectrum. david: yes, the full spectrum of the democrat candidates, right here on bulls & bears.

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david: 2020 democrat candidate mayor de blasio is back with us now on this special hour of bulls & bears.

there was a recent poll, i'm sure you saw it, showing you are the most unpopular politician right now in new york state, actually, there's a higher favorability rating for donald trump than for you right now. i mean, the question is, since most new yorkers think you haven't done a great job in new york city, why should most voters think you'd do a good job for the whole country? >> look, i don't get lost in any particular poll. there's been some polls that really do matter, there's one year and a half ago where i won 67% of the vote in new york city and four years earlier, 73% of the vote. crime has gone down six years in a row. in the end, i understand that folks get a lot of information, some of it accurate, some inaccurate. they form a snap judgment, but elections are not about individual polls. elections are about people learning about the whole person over time, and you have seen so many people who ended up winning who were the underdog to begin with. it's become actually quite

normal. there's a guy named in donald trump in the white house where a lot of people said there's no way he can win. we have to be real in the fact that any poll at any moment doesn't tell us much anymore. >> i ask the same question of every politician that comes on here because i think it is the biggest crisis we have, not climate change. we have 22 trillion dollars of debt. trillion dollars yearly deficits. this year the first 550 billion of our tax dollars, we the people's tax dollars is going towards interest on the debt that has been created by the politicians over the last 20 years. where do you stand on that? and are you willing to stay you're going to do something about it? >> yeah, i'm willing to say i want to do something about it because i'm someone who runs a huge city with a huge budget and has to balance it by law every year, and i do. i think the debt's a real problem, but i would argue before we even get to a solution in the debt, we have to be a country that invests in things like infrastructure, because if

we don't do that, we won't have the economy of the future to pay off that debt. so i don't think we have the ability at this moment to do what i would like to see us do in terms of paying down the debt until we first put our country op a stronger footing for our long-term economy >> so, mayor, i'm glad you brought up the last segment, the tax code, right, i think it is complex and convoluted, it benefits the wealthy. i think anything less than making a fairer system, you know, by making it a flat tax would be beneficial because i'm wasting tons of hours doing taxes. the wealthy will skirt taxes, you mentioned eisenhower and kennedy. what is the top issue for those in iowa? that's the top issue for me, but i'm sure in iowa that's not the top issue. what are you seeing? >> what i'm seeing in iowa is healthcare, particularly in rural area. we have talked about how

democrats have lost some ground in rural america. it is true because democrats are not talk about the bread and butter economic issues enough. in a universal healthcare approach that includes mental healthcare, that's music to the ears of a lot of rural iowans who want to get the kinds of services they haven't seen in quite a while. that's number one. the tariffs, i met with farmers in webster county and green county, iowa, a few weeks back. and they told me -- i remember this vividly -- that they think they may never be able to sell to china again, soybean farmers. they may never be able to sell to china again as a result of this trade war and this tariff battle, and that is devastating. it scares them deeply. so we have got a situation now where folks are actually quite insecure about their quality of life and what their economic future is going to be, particularly in rural iowa. those are the front burner issues. when i talk about things like don't you think the wealthy need to pay more in taxes?

that's a majority view. that's not a view that's unknown. it is a majority view in iowa. >> mayor, we're hearing a lot from you and from some other democratic candidates about what people quote unquote deserve, whether it's healthcare, education, whatever. we don't hear a lot about responsibilities and obligations. so do you believe that people have any corresponding responsibilities, for example, on healthcare? do they have the responsibility to eat healthy, exercise, not smoke, not take drugs, etc., if they're going to get something in exchange for that? >> look, believe in individual responsibility, and again, as a chief executive, and i run the largest city in the country, this is a job that's often been called the second toughest job in america. so if you're an executive, you absolutely believe in individual responsibility. i try to give every opportunity possible to people in this city to do better for themselves and their families, but they're part of the equation too. they have a responsibility to help make their community strong, to do right by their family, on a host of levels. now, i don't believe we're going

to go into everyone's home and say, you know, how much sugar did you eat today? how much fat did you eat today? not that level. we sure as hell though can create a healthcare system that focuses on preventive care and primary care. this is one of my number one, just human concerns about the american healthcare system that makes it harder for tens of millions of people to get care when they need it. i want to encourage people to go to the doctor as soon as they feel there might be a problem, not to wait, worrying about it is too expensive, too many deductibles, i think that's when you say yes, individual responsibility but let's create something that's usable for people. >> does that mean you're saying healthcare for all? you mentioned preventative care and primary care. how are you going to pay for both of those? >> yes, i do believe in healthcare for all because in the end, look what's happening in this country. we have a huge number of people with no insurance. tens of millions of people have insurance they can't use effectively. we have things that are

mythological like dental care that a huge percentage of americans can't afford. i believe we're the greatest country in the world. i'm happy to say that. people should be able to get dental care, mental healthcare, a universal system -- >> but our system is very different from the other systems around the globe that do have universal healthcare systems. you can't just implement it when things work completely differently here. it will cost a lot more, and i still don't think any democratic member right now or candidate has proposed a plan that can fund that going forward because it is so incremental and it is something you need to think long-term which often unfortunately politicians don't do. >> true statement, and true statement that america is different. we're going to have to have an american solution. and true statement that it will inherently be incremental, but i start with a clear view that a single payer system is the only way to wrap all the pieces together. look, we have got great hospitals, great doctors. that continues with a single payer system. the single payer system is where does the money come from? how is it distributed? david: that's the question. it is also a lot of money. bernie sanders agreed that it

would cost between 30 and 40 trillion dollars. that would double just about double the federal budget. i mean, that's a lot of money. that's over ten years, but that's 3 trillion dollars extra every year. that's only one program. you also have the universal income idea. you also have free tuition idea. that's a lot of money. how do you pay for it? >> for the record i don't agree with the universal income idea, but i do agree that right now you have folks who are spending a huge amount. family by family, remember a world of premium deductible, co-pay, out of pocket expenses and then all the things that aren't covered and all the horrible diseases that people can't find any way to cover. that's america today for tens and millions of middle class and working people. that's not what we should aspire to. point one. point two, how do you pay for it? i believe if you take all that piece out of the equation, folks would be willing to pay a

legitimate tax and think i don't have all the other costs and i break even or do better, that's okay. david: i want to switch gears a little bit. jeffrey epstein was extraordinarily strange, a lot of parts to this that most americans want answers to. i know he was in a federal jail. it wasn't controlled by the city itself, but the city has involvement in it in a lot of these federal jails what is your opinion about what happened? how it is being investigated, etc.? >> this is way too convenient. this makes no sense. he's one of the prominent prisoners in america, at that point. he had either attempted suicide previously or been assaulted. either way, it is the same reality. he needed to be watched 24 hours a day. it is one of the premier federal facilities in the country. it belongs to the justice department. this is -- come on, how on earth do they miss this? >> what are you implying then? >> i have been saying all week, i'm not a conspiracy theorist by nature. >> you are saying too

convenient. what does that mean? >> it means that sometimes you see a series of events that you cannot give a normal explanation for. >> [inaudible]. >> the attorney general has said there's going to be a full investigation. he looks pretty ticked off about it. >> that's good >> do you believe he will get to the bottom of it? or does more need to be done? >> i want to believe, but i think all americans would be comfortable if there's an independent element to the investigation. more importantly, the folks who were victimized by epstein deserve a fuller investigation of the bigger picture. and, you know, we think dozens and dozens, maybe hundreds of people could have been involved in that. that investigation does not need to die with epstein. in fact, it needs to be reinvigorated so there can be justice for them. david: do you think it is possible that one of the very important people that have been suggested have involvement in the jeffrey epstein affair and all of his misdoings may have had something to do with his death? >> i'm going to say it a little more simply from my point of view. the one thing i do not think is

possible here is pure tradition human error, some guard fell asleep or someone didn't cover their shift. that's the one thing i would rule out given the prominence of the case and the nature of the situation, which means something else happened. i don't know what that something else is. but it needs to be investigated. david: mayor, we've only just begin, but it is over. i'm sorry. >> we were on a roll. david: please come back and see us again; all right? >> i will. david: we can disagree without being disagreeable. i think we proved that today. coming up, former democrat maryland congressman and 2020 candidate john delaney responding to bill de blasio's plans to tax the hell out of the rich and who he says is winning the battle between democrat progressives and moderates for the future of the party. he joins us on all that and a lot more, coming next.

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david: our next guest made headlines when he blasted what he called the progressives quote fairytale economics challenging spend policies and tax policies from warren, de blasio and sanders at the last democrat debate. he's also called medicare for all political suicide. former maryland congressman and 2020 democrat candidate john delaney is joining us now. mr. delaney, good to see you. thanks for being here. we have the two ends of democratic candidates here. you heard earlier this hour bill de blasio outlined his plans to tax the hell out of the rich, 33

billion dollars medicare for all plan, and he's also for adopting the 93 trillion dollars green new deal. your response? >> well, listen, i think the mayor and i are actually trying to achieve many of the same things. i just think my ways forward are more practical. i have real solutions. some of these things people are running on are impossible promises or don't make any sense. i think we need to create universal healthcare and need to deal with climate change, but they need to be real solutions that actually work and will allow our economy to continue to grow. >> real solutions, i love that. this is christina partsinevelos, thank you for joining us. >> sure. >> i want to focus on the real solutions and the economy. given the economy has been growing so strongly, you and i quote in a recent interview have said that haven't seen an up tick in economic growth that was promised. what did you mean by that? how do you plan to go forward to maintain the strong economy? >> that quote was in the context

of the deficits which we saw were announced this morning reaching economic levels. the economic growth that was promised in the tax cuts really hasn't the earlyized in terms of -- material lized in terms of translating to the bottom line in the united states of america. i think what's going on with the fiscal trajectory in this country is terrible and we are leaving our kids debts that they can't repay and i think we need to get our act together. >> this is carol roth. how do we go about paying for those? tell us your plan. >> i think we need to have a form of universal healthcare where every american has healthcare as a right. we have universal healthcare right now. it is called emergency room. if someone comes to the emergency room, they have to be taken care of by law and the most expensive place to receive healthcare. what's different than the single payer medicare for all bill, which i think is terrible policy and also really bad politics, i would create a universal

healthcare system that goes as follows. i would leave medicare alone because it works. people like it. it's a good program. then i'd create a new program that you get from when you're 65. it would be a basic package of federal guaranteed healthcare. i would roll medicaid into that because medicaid is a terrible program right now. but if you didn't want your federal healthcare, you could opt-out and get a tax credit. and you could use that tax credit to buy your own private health insurance. you could turn it into your company and they could use it as part of buying the health insurance they give you, or you could give it to your labor union and they could use it as part of the health insurance they provide you. and i'd pay for that whole system by getting rid of the corporate deductibility of healthcare because right now that's big loophole in terms of the way our tax code works, that's about a 4 trillion dollars loophole. that plan i just laid out is fully paid for. it would give every american healthcare. it would allow for a robust private market to kind of float on top. it is very similar to the german

model for healthcare, but it's not a single payer healthcare system. >> congressman delaney -- go ahead, kevin. >> it's kevin kelly, one of the things we haven't touched base today on is actually china. and we saw the markets do really well today because it seemed to be a temporary truce, but that doesn't actually ease what's going to happen in the future. we think it is in the national interest to try to figure out how do we address state-owned entities, right, and how they are dumping into the markets. we're actually worried about, you know, the buildout of 5g using huawei products what would you do to address the chinese situation right now because the current administration is having a hard time negotiating. >> the first thing i would do is get us in the transpacific partnership which i think was a huge mistake that president trump tore that up. i think it is a huge mistake that all of the other democratic candidates i'm running against don't support it because i think if you want to deal with china, you have to compete with them.

the best way for us to compete with china is to be in the transpacific partnership and that would give us access to the asian market in a much better way than we have now and be able to bring it to china. i also think we need to build a coalition with all of our allies and quite frankly get u.s. companies more on the same page and really present a unified front. you know, the way i describe china is they act like pirates. they kind of steal everything. they steal intellectual property, stealing islands in the south china sea. you talked about what they do with currently manipulation which is a form of theft. the only way you can deal with them is compete with them successfully as possible and you have to be in the tpp to do that and get your allies and u.s. companies on the same page. u.s. companies get picked off individually and we need to get them under the tent. >> this is gary, congressman. before the debates i read there was a gentleman by the name of john delaney, a businessman that was running for president. i was thrilled, hoping we would

get some sanity at these debates. i looked you up. i studied you. you're what makes america great. you started businesses, created wealth, made money beyond all your imagination. then i see you want to do a 4 trillion dollars tax, a climate tax and then redistribute 3 trillion of that. i'm thinking to myself wait a minute. i'm trying to convince you, the greatness of this country is you and the people, not the government moving the pieces around like a chess board and i'm just hoping you think about this a second time. your thoughts? >> well, two things, it's actually a 3 trillion dollars carbon price, and we distribute 3 trillion back to the american people. so it's completely revenue neutral. what i'm proposing is you put a price on carbon, which will discourage fossil fuels and it will make renewable energies more competitive. so it's a market-based mechanism

of changing incentives. but we take 100% of the revenues that are collected through the carbon fee. it goes in a lock box, and it gets distributed to the american people in a dividend. so from a tax perspective, it's completely neutral, but it changes behavior because i believe market mechanisms really do change behavior. when you put a price on something, it becomes less attractive and people use it less. it creates an opportunity for renewables and alternative energy sources to be competitive. >> that's the government changing behavior, number one. when was the last time government took in 3 trillion dollars and doled out 3 trillion? usually the bureaucracy will take 2.7 before it gets doled out. >> bingo. >> yeah, but, that's -- you're imagining something that might happen that doesn't have to happen; right? we can write a law, and the law can be very specific that the money goes into a lock box, and it cannot be touched by the government. >> but mr. delaney, forgive me

for interrupting, but the last -- you know, youse these phrases like lock box. the last time i heard that phrase, it was applied in social security administration. our money was supposed to be in a lock box when in fact what happened is politicians went into that lock box, stole our money -- money, used it for other things. they put ious that will never be put back. we love the fact that you understand the difference between a business and the government. but you use these phrases and have hopes that's never been fulfilled. >> that's not true. i understand what you are saying about social security, but the social security law was drafted to allow the government to do what it's doing. that was the problem with that, and a lot of states actually have these lock boxes; right? so for example, in a lot of states, the gas tax goes into a dedicated lock box, and the legislatures can't touch it. the money can only be used for transportation projects. so we all know -- i mean, you

study markets. i study markets. you can create a system so that the money is walled off and it doesn't actually put the legislatures -- david: yeah, i don't know, you can say you can create a system like this. i have never seen it followed through. >> let me answer your question. >> david: go ahead. go ahead, john. >> so look, if we put a carbon fee in place, we collected all this money, we dividend it back to the american people, if politicians took that money and the american citizens didn't get their dividend, i suspect not one of them would be able to show up for work the next day. david: i don't know. >> i'm not that worried about it. >> carol? >> right now the economy we know is humming along, but we're certainly late in the business cycle. bank of america's actually projecting there's a one in three chance that we could be in a recession as early as end of next year. so how would you manage the economy if you were elected president in the middle of a recession? >> well, so the way i think the economy should work is when you have a lot of economic growth,

you should be paying down your debt, and your deficit should be low, and then when you don't have a lot of growth, that's when government spending kind of offsets, so it becomes countercyclical. the problem is what we have right now is we have a pretty good economy and deficits are soaring. that is going to in fact tie the hands of the next president. i think one thing we need to be doing that would be good for the economy and good for workers and the american people is a big infrastructure program. you know, a trillion dollars plus infrastructure program that's paid for the right way because i think that would be a nice counterbalance when the economy ultimately slows down because it will. none of us know when that's going to happen. what worries me is how big these deficits are in light of what's generally considered pretty good economic numbers. i think that's putting the future in a tough spot. >> you say pay for it the right way. the last time you were talking about infrastructure. you were talking about changing the corporate tax rate to pay for it. >> yes. >> is that still your plan? or do you have a different

strategy? >> look, i don't think the corporate tax rate should have been cut to 21%. i think it should have been cut to 25 to 27, right? that's what the business community actually asked for. the business roundtable asked for 25%. no one asked for 21%. i would get the corporate tax rate back to 25, 26, 27 percent, which would make us competitive around the world and would fund a trillion dollars infrastructure program, and i think we would be much better off as a country. >> to that point, this is christina again, i want to talk about the infrastructure. you had gary mentioned the 22 trillion dollars. you have said in the past and on the show too that we should be focusing on healthcare spending, but then you have just now mentioned the infrastructure spending plan. so to me that sounds like a lot of spending and still not addressing the fact that like you said the economy is great but our deficit keeps climbing high and our debt 22 trillion, please explain it to me. >> so, you know, let me tell you

how i look about the deficit and the debt. i think our deficit should run at 2% of our economy. it shouldn't be 0, but it shouldn't be greater than the rate of economic growth. if we could have long-term deficits of minus 2%, i think the economy could grow 2 1/2% plus and our debt as a percentage to the economy would go down. i think you can get to it 2% with some additional revenues and by doing things to control healthcare spending. i think if someone running for office is talking about infrastructure or any of this stuff, they need to tell the american people how they are going to pay for it. >> congressman delaney, i was a little confused. you just said you would raise corporate taxes, and i think that would devastate small and medium-sized businesses who have been the biggest beneficiaries of this tax cut. all the large multinational corporations were running tax schemes like double dutch irish and weren't paying fair and balanced tax rates, right? so i would think they would get hurt. the reason why, they would take

25%, 27%, they would have taken anything because we had one of the highest corporate tax rates in the world. the 22% rate we have right now is actually on the worldwide average. so i just want to know, what is your tax plan, you know, independent of infrastructure? >> so first of all, i don't agree with what you said there. most small to mid sized businesses are not incorporated entities and don't pay the corporate tax. lowering the corporate tax rate didn't have that much of an effect on them. secondly, if you look at where we are in terms of the average rate that's paid, cutting the rate down to 20% put us below our competitors. right? because that's the one thing about the united states. even when we had a 35% rate, which was absolutely the highest in the world, our effective rate was in the 20s which made us competitive with other countries. >> that's what the founding fathers wanted, they wanted low taxes, if we're below the worldwide average, that's great, in our core fabric of the country.

>> right, this is the thing, everyone should acknowledge that, you know, taxes aren't good for economic growth. but we do need tax revenues to pay our bills. right? so you know, in a perfect world, we would have no taxes of course. we would live in a fairytale. david: you don't want taxes that are going to drive corporations out of the country, and that's what we used to have. i understand you don't want to bring them back up to that level, where the companies might go to ireland again, but i just want to ask one question about another kind of tax, and it's a new tax that's being proposed by liz warren and mr. de blasio who was just here. that's the so called wealth tax. it is a brand new -- it is not an income tax, not a property tax. it is a confiscation tax. this would be a tax on the personal property of people who have already paid taxes on what they have, on their personal property, 2%, 3%. it varies. but it would essentially be a confiscation of personal property. are you in favor of this brand

new kind of wealth tax? >> no. and the reason i'm not in favor of it is because a, i don't think it is constitutional. and b, the countries that have had it have largely backed away from it because it's almost impossible to implement and enforce. so i don't think it's a practical solution for raising more revenue for the treasury. david: yeah. >> it is one of these impossible promises that i like to talk about. i will tell you what i would do to get more revenues from wealthy americans because i think we need that. david: quickly. >> i would make the capital gains rate equal to the ordinary income rate. the last president to do that was reagan. i don't see any reason why people who invest for a living pay a lower tax rate than people who work for a living. you know these people. i know these people. no one would sit on cash because their capital gains rate is the same as the ordinary income rate. that's a ridiculous myth that's been spun to the american people. that's a practical and real solution to get more revenues from wealthy americans, and it's there at the end of the day

because does anyone actually think that people who invest for a living should pay a lower tax rate than people who work for a living? david: very interesting. we're going to ask delaney what he's going to do to tackle immigration and the crisis on the border and more. that's coming next. they answered 410 questions in 8 categories about vehicle quality. and when they were done, chevy earned more j.d. power quality awards across cars, trucks and suvs than any other brand over the last four years. so on behalf of chevrolet, i want to say "thank you, real people." you're welcome. we're gonna need a bigger room. fun fact: 1 in 4 of us millennials have debt we might die with. and most of that debt is actually from credit cards. it's just not right.

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david: 2020 democrat candidate john delaney is back with us now. well, the trump administration announcing stricter enforcement of a 1999 ruling that makes it harder for immigrants on welfare to get and keep their green cards. the move is meant to save taxpayers about 2 billion dollars a year and to discourage immigrant who come to america looking for a handout. congressman, is this a good idea? >> no, i don't think it's a good idea. i think what we should be doing is doing comprehensive immigration reform. that's what this country so desperately needs, which is a very large reform package that deals with border security, reforms our visa programs and creates a pathway to legal status to the 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country. every time someone comes forward with like, you know, what the president just did or what some of the other democrats running for president have talked about which is decriminalizing the

border, all that stuff is a distraction from what we really need to do, which is to get back at the table and get comprehensive immigration reform done like we almost did in -- david: why is this idea a bad idea in your eyes? i mean a lot of people would say we don't want immigrants who come here for a handout. >> listen, there's 11 million undocumented residents in our country who are contributing to our economy. there's a lot of green card holders who are contributing to our economy. and i think they have the rights that the president's trying to take away from them, i think they have a right to those things. >> congressman, we actually heard from mayor de blasio that he thinks one of the main campaign issues out there, and i would like to hear your main campaign issue that you are hearing out there as well, but he thinks it is healthcare. one of the things he mentioned was, you know, medicaid for all or healthcare for all, but i don't think that could get the democrats to win in the general election against president trump. what are you hearing as the main

issue for your constituents that you are trying to get in the field? >> healthcare is a big issue. things like drug prices are way too high. we need to deal with that. creating some form of universal healthcare system with choice, we need to deal with that. we need real solutions. some of these candidates are running on things that not even a majority of democrats in the congress would vote for, let alone using them in the general election. one issue i hear about in places like rural iowa is how many communities aren't really seeing economic growth. the economic growth in this country is very concentrated in a handful of places. you know, last year, 80% of the venture capital was invested in 50 counties in this country out of 3,000 counties. so in about five or six big cities, you're getting a tremendous amount of economic growth, but in small towns around america, particularly in the heartland, they're shrinking. they're aging. their healthcare systems are coming tremendous pressure.

their public schools are coming under tremendous pressure. we've got to do things to make sure economic growth is more broadly distributed geographically in this country. >> this is gary again. during the debates, we heard nothing about rugged individualism, hard work, keeping what you earn. all we heard was you're a victim. your lot in life is where it is is because other people are rich and the big corporations are screwing you. i just want to know is there anything that's going to come out of the democratic party that defines we the people. it used to be the people run the country. it seems everything out of your party right now is the government has to run everything. it is another program. it is another tax. it is another something over the people's head. are you going to take the mantle and do something about this? >> what i said on the debate stage in detroit. i kind of showcased detroit as a city that is now turning it around. why is it turning around? because the private sector, the government sector, and the nonprofit sector are working

well together. and that's how we achieve the best outcomes in the country, not when we're fighting, but when we're working well together. it is one of the reasons i have called for national service because i think our country needs a whole kind of transformative almost cultural change in terms of the responsibility that individuals believe they owe their country and we owe to each other. i think national service where everyone who graduates from high school serves their country, either in the military or by doing community service or by being a part of an infrastructure program so that people are really serving their country. that would stay with them forever. they would have a sense of responsibility. and they would also realize we're all in this together because i actually do believe in this notion that united we stand. and one of the big issues i have with the president is he's divisive. i think a president should be reminding the american people that this notion that we're all in this together, that that's the beating heart of who we are. and embedded in that is a notion of self-responsibility. and what you owe your country.

if you fulfill those -- your end of the bargain, your country should give you the opportunity like i've had. i'm the first in my family to go to college. my dad was an electrician, but i grew up in a time where if you worked hard and played by the rules, you had opportunity. i think we need to get back to that. it is a two-way street. david: go ahead, carol. >> a shoutout because my father was an electrician too, local 134, sharing that moment here with you. in terms of what's going to happen going forward, right now you don't have the poll numbers to qualify as it stands today for the next debate. so why do you think that you're polling so low, and if you don't qualify for the debate, what happens then? >> well, you know, there's two debates coming up which have the same standards, the third and the fourth debate. we think we'll make one of those debates. so we're focused on that. and this is what i think is going on right now. i think there's four or five candidates that are basically

getting all the attention. i think that's going to change because i think some candidates will drop out. i also think with each passing day, the voting base becomes more moderate to some extent. and i'm a more moderate candidate. i quite frankly think that we have allowed the extremes in each party to hold this country hostage. think in the democratic party, early on it was kind of dominated by activists. each passing day more and more kind of average americans who don't pay that much attention to politics because they are raising their family or dealing with their job or business are starting to dial in. those kind of democrats are really my kind of democrats. they want someone to solve problems. they want someone to dial down the noise, and they want someone who has common sense who wants to get things done and build a better future for their children. that's really what i'm running on. david: john delaney, it is a pleasure to have you here. once again, i know you faced here some pretty hard disagreements, but we appreciate it. we think you can disagree without being disagreeable, that's the purpose of having you

here. mayor de blasio as well. we hope that the folks out there love this session as well. it's not the last. we're going to try to do it again. this special hour of bulls & bears is over now. >> what a difference a day makes. stocks across-the-board roaring back after yesterday's blistering selloff, fueling the rally. the trump administration said it is diamondback tariffs on chinese goods. but on the ground in hong kong democracy protesters shut down the airport for the second straight day. things turned violent with security forces began filing beanbag rounds, teargas and wielding batons. now, to the battle for the border back here in the u.s. senator chuck schumer wants the trump administration to drop its request for $5 billion for a border wall. redirect that money