plus right here on fox business, start smart every weekend 6-9 a.m. eastern for "mornings with maria" on fox business. hope you'll start your day with much for being with us. have a great rest of the weekend, everybody. i'll see you next week. ♪ ♪ gerry: hello and welcome to the "wall street journal at large." this week the leading democratic presidential hopefuls squared off against each other for the fourth time in the key battleground state of ohio for the largest debate ever, 12 candidates in all. and it's the first time they've been on stage together since house speaker nancy pelosi launched a formal impeachment inquiry into president donald trump. needless to say, the reactions were topic number one and, of course, the situation that prompted it was very prominent, that's the controversy

surrounding the business dealings of candidate and former vice president joe biden's son hunter in both ukraine and china. biden defended himself and his son saying neither he, nor hunter did anything wrong, and his rivals chose not to challenge him, instead turning their fire on what the president did with virtually all of them calling for his immediate impeachment. we saw a change in strategy as elizabeth warren, now the front-runner in several polls, became the main target. mayor pete buttigieg and senator amy klobuchar were especially focused on challenging warren on her medicare for all plan. >> will you raise taxes on the middle class for, to pay for it, yes or no in. >> so i have made clear what my principles are here. and for hard working middle class family, costs will go down. >> a yes or to two question that didn't get a yes or no answer. your signature, senator, is to have an answer for everything, except this. >> we can do that without

medicare for all. we can do that without a public -- >> no. >> we can. >> at least bernie's being honest here and saying how he's going to pay for this and that taxes are going to go up. and i'm sorry, elizabeth, but you have not say said that. gerry: meantime, back in washington, the impeachment probe continued with what may be some potentially damning testimony from fiona hill, an aide to former national security adviser john bolton, and the current u.s. ambassador to the european union. both are said to have told committee members there were great concerns about the president's effort to get ukraine to investigate biden, especially the work done by the president's personal lawyer, rudy giuliani. in addition, acting chief of staff mick mulvaney admitted for the first time that military aid to ukraine was held up this summer in part to force kiev to look into actions related to the 2016 election. now, mulvaney later backtracked saying, actually, there was no quid pro quo. where do we stand on impeachment and, indeed, on the 2020

presidential race? here to talk about that and more is former ohio governor john kasich, who was also a republican presidential candidate in 2016. he's out with a new book entitled "it's up to us: ten little ways we can bring about big change." governor kasich joins me from washington, thank you very much for being here. >> thanks, gerry. gerry: i want to talk about the democrats who were meeting in your home state of ohio. let me take you, start off with a little trip down memory lane, see if you remember this clip that i think we've got to show you. and as my newspaper recently reported, chinese companies are planning to bid for one of the largest hotel chains in the united states, what would be the largest-ever chinese takeover of a u.s. company. would you stop them? >> let me tell you this, mr. baker -- gerry: do you remember that four years ago? by the way, you haven't aged at all. we were very fresh shell, talking about china, you'll recall. china wasn't much discussed back then, but we did get on to the topic. let me ask you -- don't know if

you watched the democrats this week. >> i didn't see it, but i read about it. gerry: so elizabeth warren does seem to be the front-runner. again, you've been in a presidential race before, you know the dynamics. there's a view that elizabeth warren is just unelectable, that she's too far to the left, that the plans of medicare for all and taxes and regular alation are just going to be -- regulation are just going to be too far out of the mainstream. what do you think? >> i think it's really a problem for her. i mean, you know, i have argued to people that, you know, my father -- who actually was a government employee, carried mail on his back -- if he was working in a private business and somebody said, listen, we're going to take your insurance way but we'll give you a good government program, he wouldn't have bought it. it's just too much, it's too far. and i think it's been interesting how now the democrat candidates are trying to pin her down, and i think she appears very evasive. i mean, either these taxes are going up or they are not. and, you know, i think the country is essentially

center-right and center-left, gerry, and my belief is that if a democrat is going to be effective particularly in the state of ohio, it's kitchen table issues. it is about health care, but it's not about ripping away your personal health insurance. what are we going to do about the rising costs and not even taking into account the problems with deductibles and co-payments. this can put families right on the technology or push them over the edge. i also think there's great concerns about job security. in an age of a.i. and dramatic change, will my job be secure, will i be trained for something that might be somewhat different. when people sit around, families sit around in central ohio at the dinner table, they really want to know what the answers are to those things. and so far i don't think the debates have been very helpful around that, but i don't think debates are a great way to pick a president. the way we did it in '16 and the way we're doing it now.

gerry: it's a pit i to hear you say that, because we had so much fun in that debate. we'll come on your book in a little while, but just quickly again on the 2020 race, let's say if you'd won in 2016, if you'd won the republican nomination and you were now president looking for re-election, which of the democratic candidates would you most fear or least like to run against? >> yeah, i never thought about it like that. i was 18 years in the house, that's nine elections and primaries, state senate same thing, governor for two terms. my focus has always been, gerry, on trying to communicate to people what it is that i'm doing to improve their lives. i never spent my time trying to guess which horse do i want to be in the big showdown with. it was always about getting my act together and being able to explain to people how i feel -- gerry: i understand, but who do you think is the strongest? you said elizabeth warren -- >> well, i think joe biden, joe biden initially, you know, was more moderate. i haven't followed it closely

enough now to say -- i know he's drifted, i know he's changed. and the question is does he have the gas now to be able to sort of reinvigorate his campaign. i just happen to believe those to who are more moderate, klobuchar, buttigieg, biden, i think they're more in line with where americans are. gerry: do you think the whole party has shifted to the left? >> oh, it has. well, you know, the republicans have shifted hard core to the right, and the democrats have shifted hard core to the left, and it just seems to me as though nobody's really talking to those folks who are in the middle, and i think the country is center-right and center-left with common sense. my problem with the debates, just so i can explain this, is that i think they move people to the extremes. and they also put people in the position of saying how can i be clever, have something really smart to say? you want to know who'd be the best candidate? put them in a room with jerry baker and let him be able to

question them on a whole range of things. then your going to get the measure of the man or woman who's capable of leading our country. gerry: let me just very quickly are, you said the democrats have moved too far to the left, the republicans have moved to the right. there's a hole in the center. governor, you were governor, you were a member of congress, you occupy a pretty center ground. is this an opportunity for you to run as an independent for president? >> i want to help my country, i'm very concerned about where we are on trade, on debt, on these no answers to the health care problem which which really involves paying for performance and quality, incentives in that direction. there's so many things i'm concerned about. but this is right now i don't see a path. that doesn't mean that there wouldn't ban opening, but right now i don't see one. and, you know, a lot of people, they want to support a winner. they don't want to make a winner. so right now the resources aren't there in order for me to

be effective -- gerry: but you said there could be one? even in 2020? there could be a path? >> you never know. are you kidding me? whatever's happening today in another hour or tomorrow for that matter, things can dramatically change. but we have to wait and see. gerry: what would it take, quickly because i've got to take break, what would it take for you to change your mind and get woo the race? >> that's a very complicated question, and the simple answer is i'd know it if i saw it and when i saw it. gerry: and you don't yet. >> no. gerry: coming up next, more on the big issues the current occupant of the white house is facing, particularly the impeachment challenge, and how all this might impact next year's election. stay with us. ♪ fun fact: 1 in 4 of us millennials have debt we might die with. and most of that debt is actually from credit cards. it's just not right. but with sofi, you can get your credit cards right -

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♪ ♪ gerry: my guest is former ohio governor john kasich. governor, president trump is facing the very strong likelihood of impeachment

proceedings and possible impeachment in the house. twenty years ago you were in the house of representatives, and you voted to impeach bill clinton. do you see, from what you've seen so far, do you think what the president, president trump's actions amount to an impeachment offense? >> i'm very, very concerned about what i'm seeing in terms of political pressure and foreign aid, and, you know, foreign aid to help these countries defend themselves being held up for political reasons. gerry: again, you did vote for impeachment of bill clinton -- >> yeah. very difficult decision for me but one i don't regret. gerry: you think it was right, that was on perjury and obstruction of crusties. >> correct. -- justice. gerry: let's talk about the challenges facing president trump. we've seen there is -- the house this week opposition to what he was, what he's done in northern -- in syria with the kurds. he's facing this impeachment

challenge. how would you rate the president right now? he's got a lot of things done that you as a republican presumably approve of, tax cuts -- how do you rate him. >> first of all, in terms of approve of many things, i do approve largely of his deregulation policies, but i do not think it was wise to pass a tax bill without having some way to pay for it so that our debt continues to raise higher and higher. i don't agree squeezing down the number of immigrants that can come into this country legally. i don't agree at all with his policies around trade where he's now imposed things that i think have not made sense particularly when we did not work with our allies to have this done the right way. so how do i think he's doing? i think he's doing very poorly. gerry: oh, you do. so even, i mean, conservative justices, you presumably do like the justices he's -- >> sure. i do, i do like the justices, but i will tell you on both sides, republicans and democrats, we have to be very careful to make sure that we don't turn the courts into

something where we can predict outcomes. that's why we have to have people on the bench who can analyze things, you know, sort of down the middle. and i think john roberts has been trying to keep the court from being politicized, and i think it's an institution that has to have the respect of the people on all sides in in this country. gerry: president's facing some challenges in his own party, facing a primary challenge from a couple of people. do you think he deserves to be renominated for the republican nomination? >> well, look, i think it's inevitable that he will at this point -- gerry: yeah, but would you vote for him? >> well, look, if i really -- if i actually thought that there was a way for me to run and to win, i would do that. i'm not getting in the muddle of this primary right now in terms of these candidates. you know, they've abolished primaries, they've stacked the rules. but, you know, look, i don't plan to vote for him. i don't. look, i don't like elizabeth warren is picked, i'm not voting

for elizabeth warren. i really don't know what i'm going to do, but let's let things take their course. >> did you vote for him in 2016? >> no, i didn't. i wrote in john mccain. the divisions, the chaos, the disrespect, the bullying, the fighting, that's what i was most concerned about. so it wasn't easy for me. i've been a republican, i'm a conservative, by the way, conservative the way i define it not necessarily the way that those who don't believe in free trade and don't care about debt defining it, i have a right to define it the way that i want to. but it was just an easy decision for me because i anticipated the chaos with and a foreign policy that was just, had absolutely no rudder attached to it at all. gerry: but he enjoys record high approval ratings among republicans -- >> sure. gerry: so why are you outside the republican mainstream these days? >> well, i'm not tribal in nature, gerry. i kind of look at it and call it like i see it. so i think the party has drifted. it's tremendously lift drifted

from where i was as a young person who joined the republican party, who served in congress for nine terms and was a governor that was able to take deficits into surpluses and create an environment in our state where we have incredible growth in jobs and where people on the up and people down at the bottom all felt as though there was a governor and an administration that really cared about helping them. that, to me, is conservativism. everybody having a chance. gerry: governor, we need to take one more break, but up next, we'll take a look at your book and how it explains all of us taking small steps can make a big difference in changing the world. stay with us. ♪ she wanted a roommate to help with the cooking. but she wanted someone who loves cats. so, we got griswalda. dinner's almost ready. but one thing we could both agree on

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♪ gerry: i'm with john kasich. governor, you spent a lifetime

in politics dealing with big issues in washington and in ohio. you've written a book about little things, about the way we can change the world not from the top down, if you like, from the bottom up. >> correct. gerri: explain to us -- gerry: explain to us what brought this about, what's behind the book? >> well, because i think we all as human beings have to realize that we were made special, that we all have special gifts and that we have a responsibility and an obligation that life is short, that we have to consider our eternal destiny. and i think in the process of living a life a little bigger than ourselves, we can help change the world in little ways and big ways. and what makes america so special has always been the power of families, the power of communities. and when we study american politics, what we realize is that all major change -- whether it's civil rights, whether it was women's sufficient rang, whether it was ending the vietnam war, whether it's the growing concern about the climate, whether it's about reasonable measures around gun control -- they're all driven

from the bottom up. most leaders, it's very seldom that a leader drives something from the top down that gets done. so it's not just connected to politics, it's connected to the way we are and the way we want to connect to others around us. and that has a power that can transform our country and move us away from a country that is engaged in deep and at times nasty debate and to a place where we can begin to solve problems and to think about how it is where we are locally. if the secretary of state and your trash man went on vacation in the same week, who would you miss the most? [laughter] most of what happens in our lives happens where we live, and we have personal power to bring about change, and the book is replete with examples of how people can learn what others have done and be able to adopt those methods. gerry: well, give us an example. you talk about, for example, gun control. you talk about these sort of ten steps that people can take to bring about change. give an example of how small measures taken by individuals in

a community can bring about big change. >> sure. well, there's a shoe shine man from pittsburgh, his name was albert, who dropped out of school in the eighth grade, and he went shining shoes in a children's hospital in pittsburgh. and over the course of his lifetime, he put his tip money and put it in a pocket, he donated over $200,000 to mothers and fathers that couldn't pay their bills. did that change the world? it certainly has. and then you can look on a measure scale and look at greta thunberg who created a global movement. i don't think she ever thought that was going to happen. but i don't want to just focus on things where people can drive political change. and if you want to talk about political change in terms of gun control, it's the parkland students who said that we need reasonable changes in the law, and florida changed it, which was a dramatic change in terms of where, how florida viewed this issue. but it's not just about driving political change, it's also

about living a life bigger than yourself and connecting with ridges. that's what we're supposed to do, in my opinion. our creator wants us to listen to others, to be kind, to put ourselves in other people's shoes and to, is and to take our special gifts, gerry, our special gifts and use them to bring about a healing. gerry: and just very quickly, governor, because we're almost out of time -- >> yeah. gerry: the country is so divided. how do you bring together at a time when people look at each other and say, oh, that person is maybe even my enemy. how on earth can you overcome these divisions? >> it all starts with every individual and the ability to take a deep breath and get out -- they're siloed. listen to a what other people have to say even when you don't agree with them and realize everybody is made in the image of our creator, and they deserve respect. if we can just slow down a little bit, get out of our silo, show respect to others, it can help heal this tremendous thing. and remember what's always been said, a, you know, a family

divided against itself will not survive. a nation divided against itself cannot stand. i think that was abraham lincoln, i think it's actually biblical. we need to get on top of this. gerry: thanks very much indeed, governor. >> thanks, gerry. gerry: unfamiliar divisions in the republican party that we've been seeing in the last week, just ahead. ♪ ♪ i'm your cat. ever since you brought me home, that day. i've been plotting to destroy you. sizing you up... calculating your every move. you think this is love? this is a billion years of tiger dna just ready to pounce.

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♪ ♪ gerry: a striking feature of the trump presidency e has been the fierce loyalty of most republican members of congress, reflecting the historically strong approval ratings the president has enjoyed among gop voters. but this week party members raced to distance themselves from his decision to pull u.s. forces from the turkey/syria border. could this spell bigger trouble for the president? might republicans even start to abandon him, perhaps 'em pilling his presidency? at least not yet. the syrian decision was an especially controversial one, running against the grain of republican foreign policy. distancing themselves from mr. trump on this probably won't harm them with their constituents. where they stand on impeachment, despite some rising signs of concern among voters, there seems little appetite in washington to take down a president who has, after all, delivered what they've been

trying to achieve for years. be sure to follow me on twitter, facebook and instagram. next week i'll be talking with blackstone ceo steve schwartzman right here on "the wall street journal at large." thank us. ♪ ♪ >> barron's round table, sponsored by: this week or waze ceo weighs in on how carpooling just might save of the world. the outlook for embattled boeing ahead of next week's earns, and bill nye again with surprising stock picks. barron's round table starts now. ♪ ♪ >> i'm jack otter, welcome to barron's round table where the sharpest minds on wall street prepare you for the week ahead. we begin with what we think are the three most important thing we think