and don't forget follow us on twitter. that is all for us. wash your hands, keep on your masks, and we'll see you next week on "barron's rounding table." ♪ ♪ >> from the fox is studios in new york city, this is maria bartiromo's "wall street." maria: and happy weekend, everybody. welcome to the program that analyzes the week that was and helps position you for the week ahead. i'm maria bartiromo. thanks so much for joining us. coming up, labor secretary eugene scalia is here to talk about mounting jobless claims and what can be done to get america back to work as this weekend we see a rolling open for certain states. first, though, dealing with china post-covid-19, regardless of the level of culpability it's clear that a new policy will have to be developed in handling china after this worldwide pandemic. the only question is, will the

u.s. be going solo in its approach in dealing with china in terms of the economic and military superpower or work with allies in developing a grand new strategy? joining me now to talk about that and more is the founder of the atlas foundation, jonathan ward, author of "china's vision of victory," and we are happy to have him this weekend. jonathan, thank you so much for being with us. first off, give us your assessments of the china/u.s. relationship. we know that president trump has certainly changed the conversation around china after all of the tariffs and the, and the look into china's behavior on intellectual property theft. but this covid-19 crisis took it even further. tell us where we stand. >> hi, maria. it's great to be back. first of all, this to covid chi sis this is to be a wake-up call for the united states. this has to be our sputnik moment when we come together as a nation, realize that we have a giant challenge on our hands and get ready for competition with a

hostile superpower. a contest with china will be the toughest thing we've had to deal with since the early days of the ussr, possibly since the we secd world war. they seek to surpass us, become the dominant force on the planet, and we have to make sure that never happens. above all, this is going to be an economic contest, so we must remain the largest and most dynamic economy. that's number one, two and three in my mind. and the biggest question of where are america's ceos going to be, on the side and participating in a new american grand strategy, or are they going to continue to look for participation in the china market. that's going to be really the question that decides the fate of the united states. maria: you know, when you look back at this covid-19 crisis, coronavirus, you know, the chinese communist government knew about the coronavirus at the end 20619. we -- 2019. we understand they knew about it in november. and then in early december there was one doctor who said, look, we need to be wearing protective clothing because there's this

very infectious, contagious disease. that doctor was silenced by the communist government. they arrested him, they told him to stop speak out. unfortunately, he is now dead because of the coronavirus. and then so they, so they downplayed the virus, they went to davos, they went to the white house, shook everybody's hand as i've said a million times on this program to do a phase one deal, and then what happened next was really, in my mind, somewhat sinister. because while china's communist government was downplaying the virus, they were in the market cornering the market for the protective fear that the u.s. needs so badly. so i've got some data in front of me, jonathan. face masks, this category increased by 18-fold from the four months preceding january 2020. they spent $18 million a month in september, october, november, december, and then in january 2020 they spent $335 million in both january is and february to

buy masks. they're already the largest producer of this equipment. they actually produce half the world's capacity in masks, and yet they're in the market buying two billion additional masks in january. they bought goggles, they bought surge call gloves, oxygen therapy tanks. so all of this buying for the protective gear that we need in the united states while they were downplaying the virus. what was that about? >> the communist party was preparing to get ahead of this, i mean, realizing this would be ultimately a massive pandemic. and when you think about the fact that the virus originated in wuhan, even as they shut down flights to the rest of china to contain the spread in china, they alloweds from wu -- flights from wuhan to the rest of the world. ultimately, the communist party wanted to be prepared to contain this thing both economically and from a public health standpoint even as it sort of, you know, went across the world,, you

know, affecting other nations from the united states to europe, to rest of the planet. so buying up masks, allowing, you know, travelers from china to go around the planet not only created a global pandemic, but it also is going to create a massive economic crisis. the amount of debt that's going to be added to the united states because of this, all of this is going to put us into crisis. and meanwhile, china's trying to get its factories back in order and to open up its economy and to do this in addition to now advancing a narrative globally that says we are going to be the leader. maria: the broader issues dealing with china, we know their plans. they want to be the number one superyou are power. president donald trump wants to be the number one superpower. his whole thing is america first, make america great again. how will these two nations have a partnership but also understand each other's goals and american companies understanding that when you work with the communist government, you are working against america? >> well, economics, business and

national security have to come together. it's the only way out of this contest. and we have to remember that the world's democracies are two-thirds of global gross domestic product. so ultimately what we're going to need is an alliance-based trading system. we want to be working, trading, building supply chains, investing, you know, exporting, importing all of that with our allies and not with hostile states. so if china is your growth strategy the, you're going to be at odds with the united states, ultimately. i mean, all of this is pouring money into the chinese government, into chinese state-owned enterprises, into tech company that are supporting surveillance of an oppression state. you're liberally building america's adversary and making them stronger. so we really can't be investing in china the way that we have been, and we shouldn't be trading with china the way that we have been. we should be trading along agriculture, energy, consumer goods, coca-cola, but we can't

be improving their military which is design for combat with us in the pacific. maria: important points, jonathan. it is good to see you this weekend. thank you so much, we will see you soon. >> good to see you. maria: jonathan ward. don't go anywhere, gene scalia, labor secretary, is up next. back in a moment. in these uncertain times, look after yourself, your family, your friends. but know when it comes to your finances, we are here for you. what can i do for you today? we'll take a look at the portfolio and make adjustments. i'm free to chat if you have any more questions. our j.p.morgan advisors are working from home to help guide you through this. for more than 200 years, we've helped our clients navigate historic challenges. and we will get through this one... together. ♪ ♪ sprinting past every leak in our softest, smoothest fabric. she's confident, protected, her strength respected.

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that liberty mutual customizes your insurance, i just love hitting the open road and telling people she's confident, protected, her strength respected. so you only pay for what you need! [squawks] only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ ♪ ♪ maria: welcome back. the coronavirus pandemic has devastated the jobs market. more than 26 million americans is have filed for unemployment benefits over the past month. that is more than all of the jobs added since 2008. what can be done to revitalize this economy and get america back to work? joining me now to talk about that is the labor secretary for the united states, eugene scalia. secretary scalia, it is wonderful to have you this weekend. thanks for being here. >> it's good to be back, maria. maria: so we had another 4.25 million upping employment

benefits this week, taking that number to 26 million in the last month. secretary, you also saw the durable goods numbers on a industrial basis, cap-ex spending pulling back. how would you assess where we are right now in the economy? >> well, the unemployment numbers that you described, maria, are very difficult to see. these are, as you said, more than 26 million americans just in the last five weeks that have filed for unemployment. and we recognize they're make a sacrifice right now because of the public health measures that the public health authorities are telling us need to be taken to contend with the coronavirus. to it's a challenging time for them. the president knows that, with we at the department certainly know that. we are working very closely with the states to help get those unemployment payments out. as you know, the cares act -- which the president signed at the end of march, that $2.2 trillion relief bill -- includes some really important

enhancements and educations pangses of unemployment benefits -- expansions. an additional $600 a week payment, coverage for independent contractors, uber drivers and the like, and we're doing all that we can at the department to help the states who actually administer these programs, to help them get relief to american workers. i will add this though -- maria: yeah, what about that? go ahead. >> let me just -- we came into these job losses by a very different route than we have in past down turns. this was not because there was some really deep-seeded, fundamental underlying economic problem. we had a very robust economy six weeks ago. instead, this is a public health response which is causing very, very large and sudden job losses. but because of the way we came in, i'm hopeful there's a quicker way out as well, that we get the virus under control, beat it back and reopen. and we'll see jobs return. maria: so, so would you say that

the current, based on the current unemployment benefits it's equating to an unemployment rate of 13, 15, 16%? which is it? >> well, i'm not going to guess at a number with you, maria, but i will report a number i think on may 8. that's when we'll put out what the national unemployment rate is according to our bureau of labor statistics. whatever that number is, we know that it's just higher than the president wants and the american people want and that we need to continue to take measures both to provide support to americans that have been put out of work and also do all that we can to reopen the economy. the president laid out a plan for that last week. we're seeing a number of states making their way toward that. and in the meantime, we also want to do what we can to keep employees attached to their employer. as you know, this week the congress passed and the

president signed the paycheck protection legislation to refund that program. it's a program that i've been supportive of because i like the way it keeps employers and employees connected so that as we're safe to reopen in various states, they're better positioned to get back to work. which is, we know, what people want to do. maria: some people feel like the unemployment benefits, the $600 that you just mentioned, is actually this flat fee cannot be one size fits all because depending on the state that you're in and depending on the rate that they're making in terms of compensation, it's actually creating more money to stay home than actually go to work. and that's what lindsey graham told me recently, that in his state, south carolina, now a person who's home could be making $23 an hour versus the $18 an hour that they work on the job. so while the president is trying to reopen the economy in the next couple weeks, why would

anybody making more money to stay home rather than working going back to work? if i'm a worker at a restaurant or hotel, i'm sitting pretty until july 31st. so do you worry this is going to impact productivity, that the one size fits all is not appropriate given that it does encourage people to stay home? >> well, there was a strong feeling in congress, and the president agreed, that it was important to provide real relief to american workers that were being put out of work as a sacrifice to the national public health. and that's what that $600-a-week, monthly enhancement was designed to do. it expires in july, it's a short-term measure to tide us over as we teal with coronavirus. it passed the senate unanimously, and so there was strong support for it. but you're right, there the needs to be care in how this

program is administered. the state unemployment insurance computer systems are incredibly old, some of them are 40 or even 50 years old, and there's very little flexibility in how those systems operate. that's part of the reason the sum that's in the cares act, that $600 amount, was structured as a flat amount. but you're not entitled to unemployment if there's a job there for you. if your company says we're reopened, come on back, we'd like to have -- maria: oh, i see. >> -- you need to come off that amount. maria: this is a very important point that you just made. i'm really glad you made it because this is a word that needs to get communicated. thank you for that. you said you support the paycheck program. this week, of course, we did see the congress sign off on it, president trump going to be signing it into law. let me take a quick break and and you about that, because a lot of that money in the first

fran. ran out in the first few days. i want to get your take when we come back. secretary of labor eugene scalia. stay with us, we'll b b b b b so i listen to audible almost any time that i can. it's my own thing that i can do for me. since i don't have time to read, i mean i might as well listen. if i want to catch up on the news, or history, or learn what's going on in the world, i can download a book and listen to it. i listen to spanish lessons sometimes to and from work. yea, it makes me want to be better. audible reintroduced this whole world to me. it changes your perspective. it makes you a different person. see what listening to audible can do for you. actions to help prevent the spread of respiratory diseases. wash your hands. avoid close contact with people

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maria: and we are back with labor secretary eugene scalia. i want to ask you about the paycheck program because, of course, we know that an additional $310 billion went into that program this week. the first tranche of money ran out, it was so popular. so many small businesses wanted those loans, it ran out in a few days. how much of this new tranche of money is already committed, because i'm worried that this money's going to run out again in the next couple of days. >> well, maria, as you know, i am a big fan of the paycheck

protection program from the perspective of the labor department because it's a way of helping workers, keeping them tied to their employer during this difficult period getting the virus under control so that once we're ready to go back to work, the employees still is have jobs, the employers have been tided over and incentivized to keep their workers on payroll. the program is extremely popular, as you say. i think when you step back, there have been criticisms of it, but the largest criticism that's been made really is just how popular the program was. and so you're probably right that there are some funds that are already committed as we infuse another $310 billion into the program. those figures are not kept at the labor department, obviously. the sba and treasury administer this program, but this is a really needed infusion for small businesses across the country

and for their workers too. maria: when i was reporting on this, i heard from a lot of restaurant owners. the restaurant association contacted me as well, and they said, look, we've got to communicate this to the powers that be that this is not going to keep us in business. yes, it's great for the employees to be able to get a loan, get it forgiven. if 75% of that money goes out window to my employees but, number one, you're putting me on an eight week clock where the clock starts ticking as soon as i take the money and i don't have demand or business because we're in a shutdown, that's number one, so i'm still going to go bankrupt as a small business each though my if employees got paid, and number two, there's not a lot of wiggle room in terms of how much i can pay for employees and how much i can use for basic stuff like rent and business expenses given the fact that, again, we're in this shutdown, and i live by cash flow and have none right now. what do you want to tell business owners about that? do you think you're going to look at this, can this be

tweaked in terms of the rigidity, rigidness, rather, pardon me, of this plan? >> well, one of the reasons this program stands out as a great success for the president, maria, is that it was stood up so quickly, in a week this program was stood up, and loan were being written. and two weeks later all the 350 billion that were allocated for the program had been claimed. and that's the sign of a very successful, large federal program, to get it in place and operating is so quickly and to achieve such popularity. that said, no large federal program -- especially one that's set up in a week -- is going to be flawless. there are enhancements that one makes along the way, and some were made in the very early days. i'm sure that the treasury secretary and sba administrator are examining whether it's

appropriate to make any additional changes, and if so, they'll do it. maria: before you go, i've got to ask you about this thrift fund situation. this is something i've been talking a lot about on the air, the fact that the thrift fund which is the 401(k) of our military past and present, 10% of that $500 billion fund is being earmarked towards the msci index, the morgan stanley world index. i'm all about investing globally, but we're talking about china in a different light today. do we want our military men and women investing and funding china's buildup of their military to eventually overtake the united states as the number one superpower? >> well, you're talking about the thrift savings plan which is sort of the 401(k) plan for federal workers. and it's a, overseen by a board of directors. they're not part of the labor department. that's not an agency within the labor department, but we do have an auditing and some degree of

an oversight program for the thrift savings plan. the issue you're raising, yes, you've raised it in the past, and members of congress is are raised the question you have which is should the investment options in that plan include any form of indirect investments to entities in china that are engaged in some of the activities that you described. the questions have been raised, and i think as we contend with coronavirus and look toward the future, there are going to be a lot of questioned asked about supply chains, about our reliance, dependence, investments a abroad and perhaps particularly in china. maria: secretary, thanks so much for your time today, and thank you for your leadership, sir. >> thank you, maria. maria: we will see you soon. secretary gene and scalia. don't go anywhere, more "wall street" right after this. ♪ ♪

in these uncertain times, look after yourself, your family, your friends. but know when it comes to your finances, we are here for you. what can i do for you today? we'll take a look at the portfolio and make adjustments. i'm free to chat if you have any more questions. our j.p.morgan advisors are working from home to help guide you through this. for more than 200 years, we've helped our clients navigate historic challenges. and we will get through this one... together. ♪ ♪ here's the thing about managing for your business.s when you've got public clouds, and private clouds, and hybrid clouds- things can get a bit cloudy for you. but now, there's the dell technologies cloud,

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maria: welcome back. coming up next weekend on the program, don't miss it right here next weekend, we've got the president and ceo of the dallas federal reserve bank, robert kaplan, my special guest amidst an extraordinary moment with all of this stimulus. plus, this weekend join me for "sunday morning futures," 10 a.m. live, i'll be talking with arkansas senator tom cotton and california congressman devin nuñes, plus new york mayor de blasio. sunday morning, 10 a.m. eastern over on fox news. and right here on fox business, start smart weekdays 6-9 a.m. eastern. we hope you'll set the tone every weekday on "mornings with

maria." thanks so much for being with me. have a great rest of the weekend, i'll see you next time. ♪ ♪ gerry: hello, and welcome to to "wall street journal at large." another week when most of the nation remains essentially furloughed, but there are growing signs the country might not be prepared to take much more of the damage the lockdown is inflicting on the economy. across the nation thousands of protesters marched on state capitols to demand the right to get back to work, hoping to push government leaders to do what we know is necessary, yet america moving -- get america moving again. much of the media claimed the protests were being