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♪ come come on don't believe me like this ♪ neil: oh, boy, all right, the taylor swift thing, haunted and why not the haunting lyrics that match that, without saying haunted, forced their way into the show, but they're still playing this , aren't they? okay, um, now, it's going to be the entire show. welcome back, everybody. 1:00 p.m. on the east coast of the united states. it's halloween, but so far, even though it looks like we're getting more tricks than buying treats, on the stock market,

this month, typically one of the scary ones for the market in 1987 crash, 1929 crash, not today and not as things stand now because no matter what happens today unless we fall completely out of bed even with the losses we're looking at we're looking at one of the strongest objects you have to go back to the nations bicentennial 1976 to see anything like it, long before susan li was born, but she's going to offer pretend perspective on this as a season ed market watcher, but susan? you know, that's a long time to go, to see a record of this dimension for october and the dow. >> you know, if the dow actually turns positive, and we are on the brink of that, we could be on pace for the best month since 1938 more than 84 years ago near the end of the great depression so we're on a seven-day winning streak. you started it. neil: takes one to no one.

>> by the way are we still on the adele vs. taylor swift debate? neil: i'm not, but i feel that she, her tunes are born for this month and this day. >> that's right. neil: you know, this one just puts, you know, a name in it like "haunted" and gets a segment. it seems unfair but i digress, back to you. >> yeah, both are great that really identifies the month that we've had for the stock markets because its been a great month really overall for everybody. s&p 500, the nasdaq, all up and up in october, and that's despite the tech wreck that we saw last week remember when meta formerly known as facebook, had its worst week in history, worst week for amazon since 2016, and we also got a bullish call from morgan stanley this morning so strategist mike wilson there whose been right with this call predicting stocks would fall this year, they now see the end of the bear market in the first quarter of next year, and the s&p 500 could rally 6% from here before this year is done,

and that's because wilson, morgan stanley, say that they see the end to the fed tightening cycle after one more rate hike in december. that sounds pretty positive, and meantime on the other side, you did get reports this morning concerns about china lockdowns, zero covid policy, and video being posted on social media there showing groups of workers fleeing from foxconn's main plant that compiles most of the iphones in the country, after 20,000 covid case outbreak , reuters reporting that could mean a 30% drop in iphone production there in november. now foxconn denying these reports saying that production is stable, iphone production is stable. other reports now say that foxconn is actively shifting production to other facilities across china, to buffer possibly a production loss at that specific plant. now, remember, i spoke to apple ceo tim cook last week on earnings asking him specifically about china and if apple was impacted by any of the zero covid policies and cook told me

that for q 4 we had no significant impact for covid or silicon shortages in china. in fact china actually saw sales jump against a tough compare from last year. also want to note that shanghai disneyland, you got to feel sorry for those visitors, right, neil? they were trapped in the park until they showed a negative covid test even the shanghai government confirmed no in or out of shanghai disneyland. remember they did this last year in november, as well. 30,000 locked in doors but at least you're in the happiest place on earth, right? neil: yeah but what if you're stuck in the haunted house at the time? >> tower of terror? neil: that be dicey. >> i'd do it over and over again. it's a great ride. neil: wow okay that's great. i'd be in the food court just saying i'm not going. susan, thank you very much, happy halloween, my friend, susan li of all of that. big week in washington in the meantime here, not only the economy and expected rate hikes here but of course the mad scramble ahead of the mid-terms next week. hillary vaughn following that at

the white house. hey, hillary. reporter: just over a week to the mid-term election the top thing on voter's minds right now is their wallet. a new abc poll found half of americans registered to vote say there are two issues on top of mind. economy and the inflation are the single-most important issues when weighing their vote and republicans think that means mid-term momentum for the gop. >> it's death by a thousand cuts for so many families who can't afford rent, gas, groceries, halloween candy. everything is so expensive and the democrats own it. they have the white house, the senate and the house and notice they aren't running on their record. they own it. they own it. they are running away from it and voters are so smart. they hold them accountable for this economy. reporter: but some democrats disagree that they are on defense on the economy. >> campaigning with our running on our record, chair mcdaniel just said we're running away from it but we're running on it, because we've got real

accomplishments to point to. >> don't punish the people who are fixing your problems and don't reward the people who are trying to exploit the problems for their own political power. that's really the difference right now. reporter: so some democrats say they are fixing problems but one of their fixes, the so-called inflation reduction act, has not lived up to its name just yet with pce inflation report out last week at 6.2% showing that inflation is getting worse, not better. president biden has said it's the fed's job to get inflation under control, but some democrat s are warning that the fed raising rates could just make things worse. senator brown and john hick en looper saying if rates rise too quickly that could end up hurting workers even more. senator brown specifically warning job losses could be coming. the president, meanwhile, will be giving remarks this afternoon , addressing what he says are record breaking profits that oil companies are raking in and pointing the blame at them for not doing enough to bring gas prices down.

neil? neil: all right, thank you very much for that, hillary vaughn at the white house. an interesting kind of intriguing comment, actually, by market watcher in the last hour of former omb director, mick mul vaney said he thinks the fed is poised to pivot not for reasons you might suspect they have done enough to address inflation but that they are adding to the interest rate cost of the debt to the tune of already 180 to $200 billion a year as things stand now, and the higher they go, the more that debt burden goes and grows. brian brenberg here the kings college business economics professor also veronica dagger, wall street journal personal finance reporter. welcome to both of you. brian, i'd like to begin with you because i found that to be an intriguing reason for a pivot , some would say you don't want to go too far anyway and you'd want to cool it but seeing as this is the week we're going to see another three-quarter hike, what mulvaney was essentially saying is the cost of borrowing is going up, up, up

, and the fed has to be aware of that, yet another thing it has to look at beyond just a slowing economy for cooling it. what do you think? >> yeah, it's a real problem. this government has racked up so much debt that the cost of financing it now is becoming almost unbearable and mulvaney's absolutely right about that, but here is the problem. are you going to quit hiking rates because of that and run the risk of inflation remaining very high? i mean, i think it's fascinating that these democratic senators are out there writing letters to the fed saying hey, you've got to back off the interest rate hikes. well wait a second. where were you guys when all of the spending was happening that was driving this inflation? if you weren't there on that side of it, to say hey, quit the spending, i don't want to hear now about you saying hey, let's back off interest rate hikes, because it was that spending that you signed on for that put us in this spot. neil: all right, you know, they come back as you know, veronica

and say well, republicans are over spending too and you could argue with president trump he was dealing with covid. they go back to the two or three years prior to that where he was running up deficits as well. regardless of who you want to point fingers at i'm just wondering if republicans do take control, whether they will get a handle on debt because it's never a top issue for voters, so i wonder whether it's a top issue for them. >> that's a really good question. it remains to be seen if they will take action on that or if any of the policies they are proposing such as tax cuts are really going to make a difference in making a dent in inflation. what we do know is consumers are under a tremendous amount of pressure. you go to the grocery store, last year, you know, maybe it cost u2 hundred dollars for a family of four now it's costing you $300, and so many americans are going to be voting on those issues. they are going to be looking at the economy. they are going to be looking at inflation. they are going to look at whose going to help me tackle this and

get food on the table for my family. what's the plan? neil: you know, brian, the administration is going to outline the predicament with oil & gas prices and the report on all of the record profits we've seen out of exxon, chevron, all of the others making money hand- over-fist and they aren't, you know, not helping out americans or directly saying they are the reason why you're getting screwed at the pump. what do you think of that approach? >> well of course they are, right? because there's no way the administration could take responsibility for the energy policy its put forward. i think it's fascinating. president biden's out there saying why aren't these oil companies investing in increasing production? why aren't they doing more to solve this problem? well, mr. president, it's because they know it be a terrible investment idea to put money into long term projects that you, mr. president, have said you would like to crush. i mean, the answer is more

production. the answer is more investment, but this administration is not interested in fostering that. they are interested in putting that kind of business out of business in the future, so i think it's highly irresponsible economically for the president to be talking that way, but i think it's politically not helpful either because nobody believes it. there's nobody out there saying, you know, oil companies got greedy for you, mr. president, but they weren't greedy before when we had very low gas prices pre-pandemic. what's going on here? that doesn't add up and i think voters know that and that's why they are getting ready, it looks like, to deliver a shellacking at the polls in just a couple days. neil: that's a very good point if they are selfish sob's they are always selfish sob's so -- >> what changed? neil: veronica one of the things the president has done is to talk about the troubles going on saying they aren't that bad, we're through the worst of it, the job market is strong, he's quite right to say it's certainly different than the 70 's i get that but when you keep telling americans there's really nothing to worry about

and things are going well and you pick and choose your time period to talk about gas prices, what's average versus what's happening in some areas, doesn't that boomerang on you that people just say hey, wait a minute. he more or less told me i'm imagining this. >> for some people, it could feel very tone deaf, because they're looking at having difficulty paying their bills. there's been survey after survey of americans talking about how they are worried about the economy. they are worried about recession they are thinking about taking a side hustle or a second job because they can't pay their existing bills. they are worried about the holidays coming up being able to get gifts for their kids there's a lot of stress and a lot of people are worried about their job security as well, and so just to say oh, it's not so bad, that doesn't ring true for a lot of people. yes, americans are sitting on a lot of cash, but there's also people who are struggling to meet ends meet. things are so much more expensive than they were a year

ago. that doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon. it's just going to keep going up and up until we get a handle on this recession. again, polls have shown that people are a lot more confident in the republican party, in getting a handle on things like inflation than they are in democrats, so it'll be very interesting to see what happens at the polls, in the meantime, there's plenty of people who are very stressed about their finances, neil. neil: yeah, i know you're right about that. thank you, both veronica and brian on that. in the meantime want to alert you to the people who already voted hundreds of thousands, i think we're up to around 15 million who voted early or by mail-in ballot. in new york it just started this past weekend, the rest of florida started as well, so we're seeing some real early indications of passion, record numbers at that, in a mid-term election year. what's going on in new york? the city and state behind me? after this. ♪

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neil: you know, early voting and more than half the states in this country right now, new york just got it this past weekend we're told record numbers let alone for any year in a mid-term

year, it's not supposed to happen and that race is tight as a tick for governor. eric shawn in thornwood, new york with the latest there. eric? reporter: yeah, hi, neil, we're in westchester county just north of new york city, middle class upper middle class community, and as you can hear behind me, lee zeldin about to take the stage at this rally and the lt. governor his runningmate now taking the stage and the ticket getting some help from down south. virginia governor glenn youngkin also campaigning with the ticket here today, just as florida governor ron desantis did in long island over this weekend. zeldin hopes to replicate the policies of both those governors in their states on taxes, quality of life and crime. crime has been an overwhelming issue in this campaign. zeldin hammering incumbent governor hochul on the issue of crime. yesterday, i interviewed zeldin and he told me that the incumbent governor just does

not get it. >> [applause] >> she doesn't understand. she doesn't articulate why it is that we lead the entire country inflation loss, so when you see pro-criminal laws getting passed and not rolled back like cashless bail, you have district attorneys refusing to enforce the law and letting violent criminals run free. reporter: governor hochul campaigned with first lady jill biden eight miles away from where we are right now. at that event, she called crime a "conspiracy" that she says is being propagated by the media, and republicans, she says, crime isn't really as bad as people think it is despite horrifying incidents. ms. hochul just wrapped up a news conference with the gun safety group moms demand action, pressing for new gun laws, and she criticizes zeldin's gun policies. >> a crime plan, oh, i'm tough on crime, but he's soft on guns. he thinks the answer to crime is

giving everybody a gun when he supported the overturning of the concealed carry law in our state. reporter: well zeldin has been gaining a lot of traction against the incumbent governor. see this campaign sign, neil, pretty typical, it's pataki for governor 1994 those hoping mr. zeldin replicate mr. pataki, because he was able to knock off the iconic democratic governor mario cuomo back in 1994 and they certainly hope that mr. zeldin can do the very same thing next tuesday. back to you. neil: it has been a long time to your point, eric shawn, thank you very much. want to read the washington examiner, so much to talk about but first what eric was saying about this hyped up enthusiasm on both sides the passions run high, crime certainly among the big issues, but we're told it's driving early voting as well. now, a lot of republicans are

pretty passionate about this. do you think and do your sources tell you that in this bluest of blue states, for the first time since george pataki, 20 years ago, we could have a republican make it to the state house? >> so it's becoming more possible than it obviously has been in decades. look there's still a margin and average, you know, margin that is larger than the margin of error of a lot of these polls but if you look at emerson, if you look at local polling, hochul's lead has more than half do you know this is someone who was carrying safely into the double-digits lead now talking about, you know, four points in some polls, eight points in some polls and let's not forget that historically speaking, the party out of power sees a pretty strong surge in these final two weeks of polling leading up to the elections, and if prior elections are any indication you'll have more democrats doing early voting and republican turnout while wind up being the highest on election day itself. you know, there's a lot to be

said about lee zeldin being a very compelling candidate, he's very on-message the fact he's using youngkin and desantis as showing the kind of. >> governor: under he wants to be focused on bread and butter issues not just trying to gin up unnecessary culture war things but let's not forget kathy hochul is uncontested. she only became a united states congressman to replace to resign in 2011 and chosen by local democratic authorities, won one special election and couldn't win after that. she was hand picked by andrew cuomo to be his lt. governor and obviously she became the governor only because andrew cuomo had to resign, so this is not someone whose a strong proven record of electoral strength. neil: you know, you're right on that, resume is a little skippy here but she is the beneficiary of a very blue state, you carry new york city by a large margin that's the case mostly with democrats who end up losing

pretty much everywhere else in the state but that's enough. are you getting any sense from the numbers and the people you talk to that that margin in new york city and in the outer burro ughs isn't what it should be for democrats because that's the only thing i think would give zeldin a realistic chance. >> well, yes, and especially if you see those broader national numbers about latino voters and especially latino men going more towards republicans, that has been reflected in a lot of lee zeldin's polling and as we know new york city itself is very diverse so if those non-white men do tend to skew more republican than they did in 2020 , in 2016, then that is could really save zeldin from new york city itself being so dark indigo blue but ultimately, it just, you know, as abortion has just completely receded as an issue that voters really care about, it is inflation, the economy, and crime. it is that simple, and the fact

that she doesn't have a very compelling response to the issues that are now, you know, taking over new york city subways, taking over new york city streets, things you don't need to be an ideological voter to consider casting that ballot for lee zeldin and that's why i think you're hearing so much 11th hour confidence and look, odds on if you had to flip a coin obviously hochul is by far the favorite, but this is a much , much closer, i think this margin is going to look a lot more like very narrow re-election victory in new jersey a year back than it looks like any other democratic race they want it to. neil: yeah, if people voted what the they thought the polls were in new jersey a year ago, it might have been very different results. that was close as a tick when it was supposed to be a double-digit race. very good stuff, tiana, always good seeing you appreciate it. in the meantime we're focused on celebrities when they say something nice about a republican, but when luke bryan, country sensation, invites

governor ron desantis on the stage, let's just say it didn't get quite the reaction maybe some would think in that room but it did online. there was a difference. ♪ ♪

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i'm so glad we did this. i'm so glad we did this. i'm so glad we did this. i'm so glad we did this. i'm so...

...glad we did this. [kid plays drums] life is for living. let's partner for all of it. i'm so glad we did this. edward jones neil: all right, it seemed innocent enough, a country star wanting to bring a very popular governor on stage with him, but it wasn't so simple and it wasn't so short and sweet. the latest from gerri willis on it. they make a country song for this but what happened? gerri: [laughter] that's a great idea, neil. well here is what happened. country music star luke bryan at the center of controversy after bringing a special guest and very famous florida resident on

stage at his concert in jacksonville. >> i'd like to welcome to the stage governor ron desantis. >> [applause] gerri: now luke bryan is saying the governor was included in the concert to raise awareness for hurricane ian relief of course. florida officials reporting that 132 people had died due to hurricane ian, in september, and billions of dollars in damage, of course that also happened but now, brian is being forced to defend himself, break his silence after critics called the move a political stunt to benefit the possible 2024 presidential contender. bryan posting this on social media here, "i understand governor desantis is a very polarizing figure, but i grew up in a country where if a governor asks you if they can come and raise awareness to help victims of nail disaster, you help." but it's not all negative online you should know that.

he also gained some fans for the artist one writing, " time to download some luke bryan." the artist is also a judge on american idol, and currently on the florida leg of his tour. neil? neil: all right, thank you for that very much, gerri willis in the meantime following another controversial thing, not that i think luke bryan did is controversial, but depending on who you talk to, on the internet or online, social media he certainly has become one, be that as it may, now when it comes to elon musk and the controversies over what he wants to do with and to twitter, that might be a different matter kelly o'grady following all of that. what's the new boss up to, kelly reporter: hey, neil. yeah, it's never a dull moment here at twitter, but there's a number of changes coming from the new chief witness, as he's stilling himself, talking everything from revenue model to headcount to of course content moderation policies. now over the weekend elon musk was tweeting out a number of different suggestions including

polling users of twitter should bring back short form video platform vine, also sharing hints he will indeed modify the platforms approach to verification tweeting, "the whole verification process is being revamped right now" and reportedly they are considering an idea to charge as much as $20 a month for that coveted blue check. now users balking at that sticker twice in a twitter poll but showing interest if it were a $5 option. another big change coming is layoffs. a source confirming to me musk's working team is drawing up plans for headcount reduction but the extent to what's still unclear 25-75% being reported, musk denying new york times reporting a using him of making sure to fire people at twitter before part of their year-end compensation would kick in tomorrow. musk tweeting out this is false in response to that. now, while no major content moderation changes have been put in place yet we are seeing headwinds. he did share he will be looking into accused election misinformation policing on

twitter over the weekend and suggesting that maybe the solution to users being frustrated by this , you know, free speech with his take over be a choose your own adventure twitter but clearly a lot of changes coming very quickly which can be tricky if dealing with workforce that we've heard is hostile, but certainly, he's wasting no time, neil, in getting started. neil: that's an understatement, kelly thank you, great reporting as always my friend kelly o'grady following that in san francisco, we are also following some startling developments in ukraine leaving aside the constant russia tacks on citizen areas. did you know right now, 80% of ukrainians is no access to water , the russians have succeed ed in cutting off water supplies, that get to the country, and in the country, and now, it's doing something with wheat that is directly effecting their ability to get food. we're on top of both with general jack keane, after this.

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neil: all right, well if you can't beat them on the field how about starving them and making next to impossible you get their hands-on water, being a little bit over-generous to say the fact of the matter is vladimir putin is coming up with a whole number of schemes to keep the cruelty going. certainly in ukraine by backing out of the black sea agreement whereas wheat prices then as a result immediately started soaring, and everything becomes more expensive in ukraine. by the way everything becomes more expensive worldwide but this on the heels of making it difficult for eight out of 10 ukrainians to get their hands-on water, at least making it more difficult. general jack keane on all of these developments. general, now we're into the crazy brutality sphere that nothing new, as you reminded me many times, but this is scary stuff. what do you make of it? >> yeah, well, certainly what's motivating putin here is that he's losing the war on the

ground and we've known that for a number of weeks as ukrainians have retaken territory that the russians had either occupied or had taken themselves early in the invasion , and they chosen this other course of action to complement that is to as much as possible defeat the will of the ukrainian people so as you mentioned, they are striking the electric grid and water supply for obvious reasons to shut the power off and also effected distribution of water and sewage and bring real harm to the ukrainians in hoping that it will break their will. there will be something of a humanitarian crisis as a result of it but i don't believe it will break their will, if anything, it'll increase their resolve and then the second thing that you mentioned, this is likely a response in breaking the black sea grain agreement where grain was allowed to be exported out of ukraine and it is their major commodities that they do export and they export to europe, asia,

and africa and it's a significant world food supply that the ukrainians are providing, but his motivation, i think, came as a result of the ukrainians conducting an attack this last weekend on the russians naval base and for our audience to understand, the ukrainians are legitimately doing that because those shifts that are there, they are part often semitism bell that is firing missiles at the very thing we're talking about. the energy infrastructure inside of ukraine, so i'm hoping that this shutting down of the black sea agreement is only temporary but i'm not surprised its taken place. i thought the shoe would drop by putin at some point, because he knows that he can really hurt the ukrainians by stopping the shifts and the second thing he wants is to hurt the countries in the world so that they put pressure on other

countries not to continue to support ukraine so aggressively. that's kind of putin's motivation here, neil. neil: you know, general, this comes at a time, nbc reported, got a lot of play over the week and i'm sure you're familiar with joe biden apparently lost his temper i think this goes back to june, sir, over president zelenskyy's in patience with the aid and how it was streaming along right after $1 billion aid package was done. according to nbc, biden had barely finished telling zelenskyy he had green-lighted another 1 billion in military assistance in his fight against russia's invasion when zelenskyy started listing all of the additional help he needed and wasn't getting. biden lost his temper. i don't want to get into the back and forth on that but you might have heard this before what do you make of it? >> yeah, well i think we've seen publicly "our bodies, ourselves" when somebody pokes at president biden, he has a quick fuse and a tendency to jump right back at them, and i think what happened here as best

i understand it, you know, he was going through the list of things he was providing to zelenskyy and then zelenskyy ret ort was to come back at him with another list and that's where the frustration is and i think he went after zelenskyy over that issue. now zelenskyy knows this is the hand that's feeding him, neil, so later in that same day, zelenskyy issued a very public comment that how much he appreciated president biden and the support from the united states, to make certain that there was no hard feelings as a result of what it was taking place there. he knows that he needs the united states support to continue what he's doing. neil: but as you had indicated in many prior interviews, general, he needs it fast and he needs a lot of it that is president zelenskyy so he's showing proper frustration in a country quite literally under attack by a super-power no less. you think things have calmed

down because we have been paying the lions share of this and we continue to. in fact we're paying more than ever. >> yeah, well of course, we had the greatest amount of capability to do that by comparison to the other countries. some of these militaries in europe are just, they are a mere shadow of the former self. they would stand up militaries to even include the uk during the cold war but they have dismembered themselves and cut down their organizations so dramatically, but the eastern european countries and the uk are the ones that are the most steadfast and actually, the eastern europe countries are making significant sack are sacrifices giving up equipment in their operational units and when you talk to them about it, they flat tell you, the reason they are doing that is we are fighting the war that we thought we were going to fight "our bodies, ourselves" and the ukrainians are the ones that are doing it so we're going to give them the equipment we have. it's not a stockpile, we're

taking away from our units because they have the opportunity to defeat russia , and therefore, we don't have to fight them later. that makes a lot of sense to me. neil: got it. general, thank you very very much. good catching up with you general jack keane on this important day where of course the pressure is on ukraine grow as does the in patience with getting some help as much help as possible. you can understand where they are coming from. you can understand, oftentimes where we're coming from. it's a mixed bag. meantime, mixed bag but we're trying to get readings at least via the tea leaves on the supreme court taking up this affirmative action case from harvard and by extension, maybe affirmative action in general. we're getting a sense that some of the justices are very skeptical of this program, it's an early read, could be a wrong read but we're on top of it, after this. ♪ ♪

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neil: all right, can the ignitions to schools higher education programs be factored in by race in the name of

diversity? that's essentially what the supreme court is wrestling with on the two very different but similar affirmative action cases, one involving harvard and the other the university of north carolina. let's get the latest with david spunt at the supreme court. david what exactly are we talking about here? reporter: neil, it is a big day today at the supreme court. no question affirmative action is an issue that has touched millions of students over the past few decades, arguments began this morning about 10:00. they started at you mentioned going over that north carolina case that took about two and a half hours right now the justices are hearing the case dealing with harvard. now, today the justices heard these two separate cases as you mentioned they have their own nuances but overall, it is a similar overarching theme. a group of asian american students are suing both universities, one private, one public, arguing criteria to admit an asian student is far more rigid than a black student or hispanic student.

i want to play an exchange with the lawyer for the asian student 's group and the newest justice on the bench, katanji brown-jackson >> why does having race as a factor harm your members? >> the record in this case is that unc gives racial preferences to african americans s, to hispanic americans and to american indians. it does not give racial preferences to white applicants and asian applicants. >> are you sure about that? reporter: you know, neil, by even taking up this case, the 6- 3 conservative majority is welcoming even the possibility of overturning decades of precedent with affirmative action. affirmative action first began showing up in classrooms in the 1960s now with a vote by all nine justices it may end up being history. north carolina was first harvard is second as far as the case arguments are going today. it's possible both could be decided together as one decision they could be separate, or

we're expecting to hear since this is one of the biggest cases if not the biggest this term, likely end of june, early july. neil? neil: got it, my friend. thank you david spunt on that, to katie takowski, the former federal prosecutor. katie what do you think on this? >> well i think you're right there is a lot of skepticism from the conservative justices on the court and really the law strongly disfavors classification on the basis of race so in order to uphold these admissions processes that consider race as an affirmative factor, these universities according to the court need to show the compelling interest, and i think that's where the sticking point is here, because the compelling interest of considering race cannot just be racial diversity itself but really an overall arching diversity on the campus, which is legally acceptable, so i think the balance here is how do you achieve overall diversity without explicitly considering race, which is what the petitioners are asking for so i think we are likely to

see the affirmative action policies largely overhauled but again, the arguments have been very very interesting to listen to. neil: if the supreme court, correct me if i'm wrong, says all right, there shouldn't be a sort of inherent built-in affirmative action bias here, wouldn't that change the makeup of hirings and even selections beyond schools, to offices? isn't that the fear that this extends way beyond? >> well, certainly that is the fear that if your universities are not diverse then people positions in society will likely not be diverse but there's actually counter arguments in a lot of research that shows non-racial factors in making these admissions decisions often result in more diversity in some ways when you're looking at socioeconomic status, for instance and certain upbringings and backgrounds that are not race-specific that you can in fact and do in fact in many settings achieve a significant amount of diversity without explicitly deducting

points or adding points on the basis solely of someone's race. neil: now, a lot of these will go into math element and a certain percentage that the university colleges will have for , you know, any ethnic group even down to gender, so this is a set percentage. if the court were to take this on to its extreme would all of that end, or is it not that black and white? what do you expect likely changes here? again this is a 6-3 conservative court. >> i think that i would expect that that race be explicitly prohibited from consideration, as an independent factor in any admissions decisions and of course there are somewhat kind of similar topics like a families background, if people came from slave background and whether they could have that considered, things of this sort are still on the table. i think in terms of the interpretation of these that as it stands right now, these two universities explicitly and

openly admit they consider just someone's race without the experiences that may or may not be associated with that as a determining factor and in some cases it's extremely determining to the exclusion as we've seen other racial minority groups in many cases. neil: you know, if they rule on this to the degree of some suspect they might, katie, i mean, they have not been afraid to take on historic and controversial cases, and very divisive cases. almost by design. what do you make of that? >> well, i think that's absolutely right, and in this case i don't even know that this is so extraordinary. the cases in the past where the supreme court has said that some consideration of race is a factor, have always had a time limit. there was always a discussion that this wouldn't be indeterminate and at some point it wouldn't be necessary in these decisions but at this point i think the supreme court is really asking the universities to show specifically what the compelling interest is, how this benefits

education, and the overall purpose of the universities to consider the factor of race and i don't know they have gotten the clearance or justice thomas kept asking specifically that question about the educational benefits because it needs to be a compelling interest in order to classify people on the basis of race and i think that's the sticking point for many conservative justices is what exactly are we achieving not just overall diversity but just explicit racial diversity, which in the past has been not able to be considered legally and so i'm not sure they have reached that high hurdle of showing the compelling interest here. neil: got it. >> i think the court be fine to overturn that. neil: interesting. we'll watch very very closely katie thank you very much. following these developments we're following, a softening dow right now down about 84 points but its been a very very strong october. that very few thought after the wacky, crazy relentless selling we saw in september, but for the dow this month, up already appreciably 14-plus percent, the s&p better than 8%

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