market and microsoft putting pressure on the dow and ubs down rating the stock to $250 and ubs seeing risk in azure and office and those boomed during the pandemic. lauren: chinese abr is rallying today. ashley webster in nor liz claman. ashley, over to you. hi. ashley: lauren, great to see you. thank you very much. great show. all right, let's move on. fox market alert. stocks, yes, giving up some of their gains as we kick off this

final hour of trade. all of the major averages well off session highs following the release of dreaded fed minutes, about an hour ago, dow, s&p, and nasdaq attempting to hold onto gains after the fed signal that had, hey, guess what, more rate hikes are ahead. the dow up 70 points right now and it's been up as high as 272 points at the high of the session, the dow down more than 100 points at its low. right now barely in the green. today by the way marks one year since the last record high for the blue chip index. on january 4, 2022 all the way back then the dow closed at 36,000, 700 and 99. now just about 33,199. take a look at s&p 500 and trying to hang on. up 24 points so it's the last day of so called santa claus

rally period. historically the s&p 500 gained about one and a half, 1.3% during this seasonal period right now and, s&p 500 is up about three quarters of a percent over the past seven sessions and that encompasses, yes, the santa claus rally period all though it's not been tremendously strong. nasdaq looking to notch it is first gain in three sessions and up three quarters of a percent and it may be a new year but the fed is continuing its inflation fighting mission. the fed minutes indicating that on going increases in the fed funds rate will be appropriate and officials agreeing that rate cuts should not happen in 2023. a 25 basis point rate hike in february less than we've seen up till now and 30% say maybe it's another half a percent. the ten year treasury yield falling by the way to its lowest

level in nearly two weeks but pairing some of the declines, down more than three basis points at 3.71%. right now let's take a look at two year yield, that has been dropping below 4.4%. still though inverted between the 2 and 10 year which again, signals a recession ahead. many tech names and growth stocks getting boosted in part by that dip in the bond yields. meta, apple, netflix as you can see all rising on the session. tesla also up, nice, 5% as kathy woods ark invasion buyed 16 -- innovation buys 176,000 more shares of the stock. that's a nice boost. tech rally up 4% after crm provider became the very latest company to announce layoffs. salesforce plans to cut 10% of staff and cut some of the

offices and the company "hired too many people leading into this economic downturn we are now facing". as many companies face an uncertain future, how should investors, how should you navigate a subsequently volatile market environment? it's a good question and get right to the floor show and dissect all of the action and guess what, joining me now are the great scotts, trader scott bower and scott r reddler. scott b, what was the fed telling the market? don't get ahead of yourself, we have a ways to go with the rate hikes is my thought. what do you say? >> yeah, they were, ashley, but eric think what they were do -- i think what they were doing is protecting themselves and they ered on the other -- erred on the other side and got back into the game too late and they're protecting themselves and there's a real possibility that we could see rate cuts by the end of the year.

looking at economic backdrop and numbers coming out and outside of the employment picture, which we'll get a number on friday, i'm not so sure it suggests we need another full point of rate hikes this year. so let's take a, you know, just a stem back. i don't think they -- step back and i don't think they changed the landscape at all. i don't think they changed the rhetoric at all and i certainly believe that's why we're seeing the market pretty much where we were right before those minutes came out. we did see the market pull back its rallied back now and almost back towards where we were just before the minutes. ashley. it's really interesting to watch the action because as you say, a bit of selloff as the fed came in with more tough talk. ashley: now that investors are digesting and saying nothing new here saying more buying coming in. scott reddler, what do you say about the fed and what does the

economic data tell us now? is it cooling off enough to allow the fed to maybe ease back on these rate cuts or stop them all together at some point in the near future? >> the consensus is they've started easing back. you remember how many 75-basis point rate hikes did we have and then a 50-basis point rate hike and looking for one quarter or maybe another quarter. that's not what the street is debating. i think it's the duration. i think a lot of people are thinking they're going to cut rates in the second half of this year. why would they cut rates in the second half of this year. their job is to get rates as high as possible and control inflation and, yes, were seeing signs it's coming in but they're not going to cut rates yet. the only way they cut rates is if the s&p goes back to 2022 low in 2023, which is about 10% lower or below that otherwise they need to stay the course. if you're an investor, i think

long term you put your money in every month but looking into like put money to work thinking this is the spot, i think still within the first half of this year we're heading lower. red herrera ashley: scott bower, energy and utilities only survived the year and we're so used to big tech names being the leader and carrying the load. at these prices, do you like some of these texas a&m commerc? >> i do like some of them -- tech names? >> i do like some of them but as scott was saying, we'll head loader but we make new -- lower before we make new highs again. i think there's going to be other opportunity to guy some of these tech names. but i think that you ladder in if you look at apple, the stock is up a bit and you've got buying and some names beaten up and nvidia and some of the other

semis, sure, this is a great time if you're a holder for the longer term to start buying in. i certainly would not allocate 100% of my position here because i think you'ring to have other opportunities but on the flip side to that, ashley, if i look at energy sector, which he was the leader in 2022 we've had massive selloff across the sector and i think there's buying opportunities in some of the big energy names. ashley: it's interesting, scott redler, what about the tech sector, do you like some of the names at some of these prices and they've been such a leader for so long. r >> if you're a trader and need to make cash flow, there might be opportunities to push the con sconsenate democrats suspended s

back -- consensus back for the next two weeks and unbelievable at one points and time and they had opportunities that were lower and i agree with scotty b it's a ladder approach and if you feel like you're going to miss a rally and want to ladder in, you start now and we'll see s&p lows of 2022 and 2023 and be prepared if you buy apple at 126, it could see 118 or 103 so be prepared you might have to buy more so don't do it at at once. if you looking to buy tesla at 113 where we're bouncing to but came in at 285 from september, if we see 3500, we could see # 1 in tesla and -- 91 in tesla and know what you can hand and will allocate and what your time frame is. today trades are trying to figure out, do we get a better than feared earnings rally for next week to play and net net net, there'll be better prices

lolower and get list ready and prices and ladder in. ashley: ladder in, we'll leave it at that. scott bauer, scott redler, thank you very much. i want to get to this story and it's been a story for quite awhile now. southwest, the airline trying to pick up the pieces of its holiday flight-mare with more than 15,000 flights canceled during the busiest time of the year leaving millions of passengers stranded and, oh, yes, their luggage lost and now the airline has a different storm on the horizon as passengers are looking to take legal action against the carrier for that colossal meltdown. they're angry. live to grady trimble at chips act midway's -- chicago's midway airport with tough love for southwest customers. reporter: i see what you did there, ash, there's no love lost between some passengers and southwest airlines. namely one passenger in new

orleans who has filed the first lawsuit against southwest. it's a proposed class action and the lawsuit claims that this gentleman's flight out of new orleans was canceled. he says the airline couldn't book him on an alternative flight and offered only a flight crcredit. there's no dollar amount he's requesting in the suit but wants a full refund and reimbursement for costs associated with the cancellation. for its part, southwest is trying to make good for its loyal customers. ceo bob jordan once again apologizing this week and offering frequent flier points equivalent to about $300 to affected passengers and we asked southwest about the lawsuit. it's not responding directly to it, but it tells us we have a long and proud 51-year history of delivering on our customer's expectatiations and we're commid to the all important imperative of taking care of them during operational disruptions. this lawsuit could be the first of many to come.

i spoke with attorney mark laneil risker and has filed big -- leneir and has filed some big class action lawsuits against johnson & johnson and google and might file one in dallas where southwest is headquarters next week. >> i appreciate the fact they've set up a website. i appreciate the fact they've given lip service to trying to make things right. they say that they want to tailor each response to each individual problem. there's no way they're going to be able to do that. that's an absurdity. reporter: all told, bank of america estimates the travel chaos over the holidays could cost southwest as much as $700 million in lost revenue, reimbursements and refunds. the good news is, ashley, where i am standing today here at midway and airports across the country, it does appear that flights and operations for southwest airlines have returned back to normal.

ash. ashley: if only it was like that over the holidays, but as we know it wasn't. grady trimble at chicago's midway. grady, thank you very much. now this, disgraced ftx founder sam bankman-fried had his first day in court yesterday but how much will the fraud case and the exchanges collapse have on the mainstreaming of crypto? look at that scrum there. we'll ask the chamber of digital commerce founder and president next. as we head to the break, take a look at the big board for you. the dow moving higher, trying to hang onto its gains, up 89 points, a quarter of a percent. the "claman countdown" will come right back. ♪

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ashley: break news for you, the department of justice is in the process of seizing shares of robinhood that were allegedly used as c c collateral to fund s for ftx and that's the tagsing force to try and recover as much of the last $8 billion in funds as possible. all of this unfolding as sam bankman-fried pleaded not guilty to federal charges in new york yesterday. the former crypto billionaire faces charges of money laundering, wire fraud conspiracy and securities fraud. crypto currencies starting out of 2023 well below the levels they were at last year and bitcoin down 63% in the last year. a large part of that caused to the ftx crypto scandal. joining me now with what's next for crypto is the chamber of digital commerce founder

perianne boring. perianne, great to chat with you today. what kind of damage has ftx done in your mind to the crypto world and those that have always said, it's a bit too much, there's too much merkiness. not enough transparency. this doesn't help that argue, does it? >> yeah, this is certainly a setback, ashley. ftx has been all over the news but we have to also recognize that there is no industry that is immune from fraud, scams, or bad actors. you ask about the current state of the crypto industry, despite there being high volatility today, the market fundamentals remain solid. it is estimated that as many as 40 million americans own crypto currency today and there's a lot of demand for digital asset and if you're using bitcoin as a

digital benchmark, the fundamentals of bitcoin are at all-time highs and number of users, wallets, hash rates, these are all currently sitting at record highs. bitcoin is only 14 years old, and it's already one of the largest payment networks in the world today. it's transactional volume exceeded that of american express and discover and getting close to the size ovmastercard so despite is this being a very long ecosystem, there's volatility, bower seeing very strong -- but we're seeing very strong fundamentals underway. ashley: perianne, how can we know there's not another sam bankman-fried out there? he's not been convicted but he was like one of the darlings of the crypto world and now facing very serious charges and how do we know there's not another sbf out there? >> again, there's no industry that's immune to fraud or scammers. these bad actors could be

anywhere. this was not a crypto scam. this was just a pretty straightforward case of fraud. the u.s. industry has really suffered from lack of clear regulatory frame work because businesses don't have clear rules to operate here. that's pushed a ton of activity over seas. we talked about the demand, millions and millions of americans want access to these products and they've gone overseas and that gave rise to offshore companies like ftx. now washington dc is colessing and there's a bipartisan movement to give u.s. investors and consumers the clarity they need to access u.s. regulated digital currency businesses. this is what the market wants and i believe policymakers want and what we've been advocating for going on a decade now at the chamber. ashley: you know, it's interesting, isn't it, because for awhile there crypto was seen

as this separate system of financing that was free of government regulation and central banking, but from what i'm gathering from you, you probably would welcome more regulation, is that true? >> we would like to see regulatory clarity. there's turf wars between different federal agencies most notely between the securities and exchange commission and the trading commission and there's not agreement on which digital assets are considered securities regulated by the sec or commodities regulated by cftc. companies that want to follow the rules and don't want to get in the middle of the turf wars so they're taking a step back or taking that activity overseas and this is the type of collator i'm talking about that investors and businesses and consumers deserve and we're working to

achieve. ashley: that's a good question because i was going to finish there. if i'm going to invest in crypto for the very first time, how much information, what kind of research can i do that i feel comfortable that i can actually invest in this space? >> this raises such an important issue. there is huge demand for access to crypto currency products but yet you have to leave your brokerage or financial advisers to invest in this space and we've been advocating to bring a spot etf to the space and retail investors can invest with the advice of their brokerage or through financial advisers and my piece of advice is do not invest in things you don't understand. if you don't realize what type of product you're buying, if you don't understand things like how to protect your keys, you can make critical missteps in this space. so we will continue to try and bring more regulated products to market or retail investors and in the meantime, make sure you

know what you're getting into. ashley: very good advice and great information. perianne boring, thank you for joining us to talk about the latest in the crypto world. thank you. ge by the way, hoping to bring another good thing to life as it spins off part of the once powerful multinational founded by thomas edison and jp morgan. the details ahead in pop stocks and later, we're headed for sin city as ces2023 gets set for kickoff. kelly o'grady live in las vegas with a preview. heading to the break we'll check the markets, dow, s&p and nasdaq, can we hold onto gains as we head towards the final 36 minutes of trading? let's see, it's just above the water line on the dow. we'll have more right after this. ♪

ashley: break news for you, the house of representatives have just begun its sixth round of voting for house speaker, kevin mccarthy failing again to convince any of the 20gop holdouts to switch their votes in his favorite. representative elect of florida just nominated mccarthy for the sixth time and democrats have nominated hakeem jeffries of new york and we'll keep an eye on this soap opera how it plays out. take a look at the markets and we're managing to stay on the upside not with a lot of conviction but the dow up 66

points, the s&p up half a percent, same story on the nasdaq. meantime general electric completing its spinoff of its healthcare business as shares of ge healthcare begin trading today on the nasdaq. the new company has a market cap of about $25.5 billion and net debt of $8.4 billion giving it a total enterprise value of almost $34 billion and stock up five and a third percent. shares of chinese companies listed in the u.s. jumping after group was given permission to raise for the consumer unit and the regulatory commission approving the company's plan to double its capital, the deal resolves a key hurdle for jack mars group seeking to meet requirements from u.s. regulators following a crackdown on the business after its ipo was stopped in 2020, halted.

alibaba holding those stocks and jd.com and p p pindodo. cutting to $250 and stock down 5% today. chip stocks though rising today after piper sandler says last year's revenue, revenue hits due to demand weakness are over in their opinion and capital market analyst see memory market demand recovery in the second half of this year led by new product launches and recovery in demand and china as that country reopens. by the way, fox business is officially staying put right here in midtown manhattan. news corp., which is the parent

company of dow jones and fox corp., the parent of fox business, fox news and the fox broadcast network signed 20 year leases renewing their office space at mother ship of 1211 avenue of the americas and the two leases include 1.1 million scare feet and agreement -- square feet and agreement with the canadian realize firm that owns the -- real estate firm that owns the building include renovations to the entire or and exterior -- interior of the building and exterior, getting a facelift. elon musk looking to boost revenue and what do all of mr. musk's moves say about his end game in interesting question. venture capitalist and tech media guru breaks it down in minutes. checking the blue chips and the dow moving higher and hanging on virulently up 42 points about a tenth of a percent gain.

we're coming right back. ♪

ashley: twitter will begin accepting political advertise wants in the coming week -- advertise m&ms after a three year -- advertisements after a ban in place on the political platform. ceo elon musk looking for ways to bring in cash after $44 billion on the social media site and comes as musk is trying to reduce the san francisco headquarters. cutting jobs and toying with the idea of filing for bankruptcy. what does all this mean for the future of the little bluebird? joined by former huffing ton post ceo and yahoo board

memberrer, eric hippo. eric, great to see you. look, let me get your kind of i guess summation if you'd like and what's been going on at twitter and how elon musk handled it since he took over. it's been a little chaotic, would you say? >> completely, hi, ashley. it was completely chaotic, and maybe there's some method to his madness because after all he's a fantastic businessman. but he took over and immediately fired about two-thirds of the employees, he got involved in all kinds of controls of free speech and political matters, and he delisted people and he put them back on and he created a subscription service and took it back down. it's really hard to understand what the mission is, but more importantly he really, really scared off the advertisers by some reports he lost as many as

70% of his advertising, and the advertising is what supports the business. 90% plus of his revenues are advertisers and advertisers once you scare them off, it's hard to get them back. ashley: you know, he says, mr. musk says he's looking for someone to replace him as ceo. there's those that say he should do it by the end of the month. how difficult will it be to find that person? who would want to take this on? >> really depends on how much elon will stay involved with the business. he can't be capricious. the thing about the business and what i was hoping he would immediately do is work on the product itself. twitter is an incredibly useful platform, it's a social media platform, this is what you can get raw news, opinions, trends that is useful to all much us on a daily basis, but it's a very, very difficult product to use. the casual person looking for information is going to have a

really hard time getting on the platform and figuring it out. i was hoping that that's where he was going to go. he was going to make it more user friendly and user friendly to advertisers and he hasn't done any of that . i'm not quite sure what his plan is. ashley: what would you advise him to do, eric, with regard to creating some decent cash flow. he's talked about paying tiering and so on and different things s but he's been losing advertisers and that's the core of his revenue. what would you advise right now? >> i would advise him to stabilize the platform, make your intentions very clear. this is what he wants the community to do and what he wants the product to look like and make it somewhat transparent and how he's going to find a ceo and what the responsibility of the ceo will be and is that person and that person's team have autonomy? of course he owns it and he has

a right to have his own opinion, but what people really want and particularly advertisers is transparency and comfort that where they're advertising is going to go is going to be useful. ashley: very quickly, eric, does this open a door for a competitor and other social media competitor to come in and fill the space? >> it's going to be -- it's going to take a long time. the biggest competitor to twitter today is reddit, which by itself is not a very easy to use product. there's another one but all these things take a listening time but the worry here is that twitter will basically go bankrupt and that'll be the end of that. ashley: very quickly, do you think that's a possibility? >> i think if you look at, you know, his issues and problems at tesla, these problems haven't yet spilled over into spacex but

at some point when does he say enough is enough and i'll cut my losses and i'm going to go play somewhere else? ashley: well, we'll find out but it's fun to follow in some ways. eric hippeau, thank you for joining us and appreciate your input today. thank you. in just 17 hours expo areas across the las vegas strip will be opening their doors to 100,000 attendees for ces2023, the very largest tech show in the entire world. more than 3,000 exhibitors will be on display this year and while exhibitions don't officially open till tomorrow, today some major announcements made at media day. we got a bit of a scoop. kelly o'grady live in sin city this afternoon with the latest. kelly. reporter: hey, good to see you, ashley. i love ces because it's a celebration of innovation and it's so good to be back. 100,000 attendees so it's pretty bear right now but this -- bare right now but this familiar will

be packed tomorrow with tech-hungry attendees looking at everything and everyone is still setting upright now, but it gives you a feel of what's coming. one major change versus last year, the big names are back. you've got google, amazon, meta, they're all expected to exhibit amongst the more than 3200 companies. last night we got a sneak peek of what the week will bring and big focus of the meta verse, ai and fitness wearable space and a pillow helping you stop snoring and today there's a number of big product reveals thus far volkswagen's new electric vehicle and micro-tv from samsung and a wireless tv from u.s. base displace. i want to show you a neat one i stumbled upon and it's a company called aolis robotics and it's a robot helping with household chores and will deliver things for you and able to detect with different posture movements if something is about to go wrong or maybe you're about to fall

it'll send an alert. it gives you a flavor of what's coming tomorrow, ashley, through friday and the weekend and i'll bring you cool gadgets all week. ashley: i love it. i'm a big gadget guy and that's the place to b. lucky you, kelly o'grady and we'll continue to follow your reports from las vegas. electric vehicles are made at ces 2023 and coming up next, the ceo of chip maker wolfspeed is here as his company partner withs a luxury auto making aiming for the ev future but check the big board heading to the break and the dow losing a bit of ground with about 15 minutes until the opening bell, just down 49 points now. the "claman countdown" will be right back.

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>> yesterday 150 million cars connected with qualcomm technology, connected to the cloud. ashley: that was qualcomm ceo

cristiano aman yesterday on the "claman countdown" sharing his excitement for the growth of the auto sector and the competition for car chips is heating up and wolfspeed announcing the partnership with silicon car buying semiconductors of the new generation of electric vehicles and take a look at what wolfshares are doing this hour. shares are moving up, about 2.5 bubs, 3.13%. joining us all to break it down is fox business exclusive with wolfspeed president and ceo greg lowe. greg, so great to see you. congratulations. talk to me about mercedes. obviously a brand that's synonymous with luxury and you must be excited about this and what does it mean for your company? >> it's an awesome partnership

that we've struck and as mentioned in the press release, we've been working with them for a number of years now doing technical evaluation and so forth and we're very, very pleased to be nominated as the supplier for their silicon carbide devices. now silicon carbide is more efficient than silicon and what that does for an electric car is allows the car to go further with the same amount of battery and range is a huge deal for electric cars and allows the car to be charged faster. that of course is another key car about for consumers. super excited and mercedes benz of course is a historic legend in the auto industry and it's great to be working with them as they transition from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles. ashley: how soon before we can be driving a mercedes with your chips in them? >> well, we weren't able to announce that, but the next generation of their cars are

using our plat for the purposes so as -- platforms so as those begin to roll out, you'll see more and more of those products using wolfspeed technology and we did announce today that we're going to be across several different platforms so stay tuned. ashley: you know, gregg, you were on the show last september and announced you were building the largest, if i'm correct, silicon carbide plant in the world. how's construction on the north carolina plant going? >> pretty good. you know, we announced that on a friday and we were at that site on the following monday moving earth and preparing, et cetera. we basically jumped right into it. the materials factory will actually begin production in the first quarter of calendar 24, which is basically almost a year -- well a year from now. so we're super excited about that, and that plant will be ten times bigger than our existing

facility and our existing facility is currently the world's largest facility for silicon carbide. this will be an enormous increase in capability for silicon carbide and comes at an excellent time as the demand for this technology is just skyrocketing. ashley: well, that's my next question, you know, we've continued to talk about the ev market. it is gaining acceptance, there's no doubt. there's still a lot of questions about infrastructure and charge anxiety and things like that, but do you feel that this industry is really starting to pick up momentum? >> it certainly is, and i think we're seeing the end of the internal combustion engine or ice. we like to say we're helping end the ice age and, you know, we're enabling cars will go longer distances with the same battery. that's the so-called range anxiety that people are worried

about. you're seeing more and more cars come out with 400, 450, 520-mile ranges and that's a big deal. the other thing people are interested in are charging and refilling if you will quickly. that's enabled also by silicon carbide. i think this transition from the internal combustion engine to electric vehicles were essentially enabling that. >> thank you for being here today, gregg lowe, and congratulations on your new partnership with mercedes. good times ahead and thank you for being here. >> thank you for ashley: on friday liz claman will be live from las vegas with delta air lines ceo ed bags shun, cme, terry duffy. they're all along on friday, 3:00 p.m. eastern as always on the claman "countdown." don't miss it, lots to talk about. markets showing some signs of

life the dow moved slightly lower, coming back minutes before the closing bell. now this question, could the bears go into hibernation after a brutal 2022 and give way to the bulls? our "countdown" closer says the bull market will return to wall street this year but not right away. joining me icon size source ceo greg callahan. i like what you say. the bull market will return but how much pain will we go through before we get there? >> we don't see conditions accompanying market bottom yet during the year. they're just not there yet. ashley: we just heard from the fed. i know they're talking tough, maybe just trying to give reality check to the markets but the fed plays a major role. how do you see their actions impacting the markets? >> normally it bottoms, the fed eases, investors ignore that the market form as bottom many

months after the easing began. the bull case is counting on a pivot. that would mean the bull market starts before the fed even starts to ease. that would be extremely unusual. so, looks like a risky bet to us to count on a pivot bailing out the bulls. ashley: right. where should investors park their money until we get the bull run going again? what is your best advice? the. >> we really like the corporate bond market right now. we expect a decoupling between the short-term rates and long-term rates. we think it is underway. so the 10-year plus, grade corporate bonds, we really like them at this point. >> what about tech? we heard a lot of exciting announcements throughout the course of the show today, greg, about advancements in technology. that particular sector took a hammering last year of course with the rising interest rates

but how do you see the tech sector playing out in 2023? >> you're right. there is debate underway. will they bounce, come back, be leaders or not? ashley: yeah. >> we don't see that. standard & poor's has 13 information technology industries and only one of them in our system is eligible for purchase. so there is 12 just aren't worthy of being purchased right now. so it is unlikely for our system to see technology coming back and being a leader. ashley: your top stock pick, i'm looking at your notes, craig, top stock pick is lbl financial. what do you like about this stock and what about financials that should do better in higher interest rate environment, right? >> they have 21,000 financial advisors, very good unwith i might add. they're adding to that. they're out actively recruiting. they're under goings an earnings surge.

year-over-year earnings grew 60% over last year. analysts calling for 70% boost this year. that is very impressive earnings surge. our value model, we don't believe the investors are pricing that in. there is still a lot of room for lpl financial to go. ashley: do you see recession? if so, how deep? >> i'm not a economist. i'm a value-based bottom up stock-picker. so it would be a wild guess coming from me. but yes, i would expect the fed is so serious that they will tip it into recession. ashley: you know this is interesting, i understand that. i understand that. you're one of the few that doesn't have an opinion by the way. but you know, there is a lot of talk about, a lot of talk about what the fed will do and the amount of money but we knew this day was coming, right? we were returning around with cheap money for a decade. now we're paying the piper. >> for the fed to get to

neutral, for us neutral is when the inflation rate equals the risk-free rate of investing, t-bills. so we think t-bills will have to get to around 5% to be tighter than neutral, and -- ashley: right. >> we think they will get there by may. ashley: very good. lots 6 information. craig callahan thanks for joining us today. we appreciate all of your insight. by the way major averages trying to close higher for the first time in the new year. nice spurt at the end for the dow up 131 points as we head to the closing bell. we'll take a look at the s&p moving higher. [closing bell rings] bell starts to ring. nasdaq up 3/4 of a percent. russell 2000 up 1.25%. how about that? that will do it for "the claman countdown." "kudlow" -- ♪. larry: hello, folks, welcome to "kudlow." i'm larry kudlow.