there's going to be a lot of twist withs and turns, but ultimately, the journey and the destination eventually gets back on the path that it's been on for a hundred or two hundred years. leadership changes, and it's smart to make adjustments many your portfolio. it's also smart not to to try to pick bottom, but it is not smart to ignore signs. fed wants you to ignore signs. a lot of market pros want you to ignore shines -- signs. heck, they want you to sell, but who's going to be on other side buying? it's fine to hold on to your cash right now, maybe more than normal. here's for me next week, 4100, this is the my number. we breakthrough will and close there, i think the train is really leaving the station. don't get too fix sainted on near term losses -- fixated. with that, i hand it over to my friend and colleague, liz claman. liz: charles, thank you so much. not for nothing do the bulls need a manicure as we kick off the final hour of trade?

they have worked so hard to claw back early losses. i know bulls don't have claws, they have hoofs. but i'm just going with the imagery, right? look at this, green on the screen. the nasdaq actually had the most trouble shortly after open. the tech-heavy index lost 1%, and right now it's back up about 38 points. it did drop earlier to 10,900, but we are back above 11,000 at 11,039. now, the point gain on the dow, we're looking at about 48 points to the upside, this after being down 27. 4 points at low -- 374. hey -- 274. it doesn't look like a lot, 49 points, but the s&p, let's get to that one. currently, right now, we have the broader index up 7 points. at its low it was down 35 points. and once again the small and mid caps, the russell 2000, they are percentage leader here. we've got the russell up about a quarter of a percent at the moment, that's a gain of 4.7,

$4.73, never mind. a gain of about a quarter of a percent. jpmorgan is actually doing a good share of the hoisting with this gain at the moment of 2.5%. we do have it topping the dow, and wells fargo is way up high on the s&p right now. both reported fourth quarter results this morning, kicking off earnings season with a bang. we also had citi group, bank of america, they reported. all four of these names beat estimates. all four were in the red earlier, but friday the 13 be damned, her now solidly in the green. and they are holding up even on this little grenade hitting the tape two hours ago. as if inflation and the federal reserve interest rate hikes weren't must have for the markets to worry about, treasury secretary janet yellen warning this afternoon that the treasury department will begin taking, quote, extraordinary measures beginning next week because we're about to hit the debt ceiling in six days. if that ceiling is breached, the u.s. government, what does it

mean? it would not be able to borrow to pay its existing bills. what would such a crisis do to the markets? coming up, larry fink, ceo of blackrock, the world's largest asset manager, joins "the claman countdown" live. charlie gasparino and i will ask larry how dangerous the disarray could be in d.c. to the markets, how close he believes we are to a recession, where he thinks you, the investor, can find best moneymakers in 2023 the. we'll talk crypto, the federal reserve, much, much more. for now, we are all over the start of earnings season. next week these names, morgan stanley, goldman sachs and charles schwab all report. goldman sachs, by the way, today the saying that the bank lost $3 billion on its consumer lending business since 2020. and, yes, that involves its partnership with the apple cart. so let's get right to the floor if show. we're talking banks and stocks and so much more. rbc capital markets' managing director gerard cassidy, he's

got an outperform on bank of america and jpmorgan, and our friend keith fitz if gerald of the fits if gerald group. -- fitzgerald group. gerard, give me your grade for the banks that have reported so far because, on the surface, they all beat estimates. dig deeper for our viewers. >> well, liz, what we saw in this quarter which we were anticipating considering that the fed has moved so aggressively in raising short-term interest rates was higher net interest margins which led to much stronger net interest revenue growth. so when you look at how they beat their numbers, generally the banks that reported today reported better than expected -- income growth, partially offset by -- [audio difficulty] slightly below nonif interest income or fee income growth. and as you might imagine, the fee income business was impacted by the investment banking business which, of course, was very weak mt. quarter. but overall, the results that came in benefited from better

loan growth and better margins which led to this stronger net interest income growth. liz: keith fitzgerald, give me your sense of what you see the markets might be feeling, voted down earlier in the session, then scratches up into the positive. you look at this turn the-around for wells fargo, this is a pretty impressive move, up 3.25 right now after having been done. -- down. is this a broader psychological moment for the markets? >> absolutely. and to use a highly technical trading term, how cool is this? [laughter] bottoming is a process, and what's happening is you've got short-term traders getting carried out by the long-term investors who understand that history is on their side. watching banks come in with strong numbers today was significant because it shows they know how to handle money. and more importantly, they have a positive outlook. there's still concern about inflation, still concern about recession, but this was a great development, and it's wonderful to see going into the weekend.

liz: what are you buying right now, keith? i found it really weird/interesting that i always go through the s&p 500, and i'm trying to look and see what are the leaders, what are the laggards. the auto names are doing really poorly. ford is very close to the bottom. tesla, lucid, which had been on quite the run,s also looking bad. you're looking at anything that is consumer discretionary at the moment, because we've had people on this week who actually like that play. >> well, it's interesting, to me, so jpmorgan has been a longtime the favorite of mine, i own a fair amount of it, and tesla is one of those stocks that i'm keen to buy. here's the deal with awe automakers, people have realized all of a sudden most of america cannot afford the higher rates t. the number of people with thousand dollar plus car payments, i think, is at all-time highs when default rates are rising, credit problems are surfacing, so that causes concerns. it's a 5,000-pound paperweight, really. the lenders who are putting all

money out there, in fact, are going to do the pretty darn well. liz: gerard, jpmorgan announced it was boosting its loan loss reserves. this brings me back to the early days of the lockdown and covid. for those of you who don't quite understand that, it's putting aside a bunch of dry powder. it's got that rainy day fund that's building up again. are you worriet of exposure to credit cards. >> it's a really good point that you're making, liz, because they put up a very large provision for loan losses, larger than expected. but what we have to keep in mind is that there's a new accounting rule that went into effect in 2020 known as cecil, current expected credit loss accounting. and what this requires the banks to do is to take a forward look into the future on potential credit losses over the life of their portfolios. and with the rise in interest rates and the expectation this year of a slower economy or a

soft recession, these banks are building up their reserves, which is what you saw with jpmorgan. however, the current levels of credit quality are strong. net chargeoffs or credit losses are still very low. jpmorgan chase's credit card losses in 2022 were at record lows. so i think what you're seeing is they're building up the reserves, and they're doing it and they're able to do it and still beat on earnings because of the strength of revenue growth, and that's what we saw with jpmorgan today. liz: okay, keith, tech, we always have to talk about that because it is a favorite of many of our viewers. hay either love it or love to hate it. apple has been an interesting mover, up about 3% for the week. but they've had a bunch of news coming out where they are really making very, very ayes, sir we've moves to be -- aggressive moves to be the totally self-sufficient. hay don't want to buy their chips from broadcom or qualcomm.

does that give you hope and belief that this is just sort of one of those, you know, one of the very best that really marches to the beat of a different drum and at $134 it's still a buy? >> i think it's not only a buy, but it's a bargain. here's the thing, history shows us, liz, and you you know this very, very well, that the strong feed when the meek retreat. especially when an industry's in transition. we've seen it in oil, in energy, in defense, we've seen it in all kinds of other industries over the last 200 years, 300, 400 years. so looking at apple doing what it's doing now, i view that as a tremendous sign of prudent management, forward thinking and plans for the future. they've got plenty of cash, customers are going to come running back. they may be slow right now, but they're going to come running back as the economy improves. liz: gerard, keith, wonderful to see you. happy friday. i won't say friday the 13th. people get anxious -- guys, i walk under laddieers. -- ladders.

gentlemen, thank you. the rolling stones said it first, give me shelter, but we're going to add without high mortgage rates. and yet it is rising mortgage rates behind growing inventory, something home buyers or at least hopeful home buyers have been pining for. does that mean 2023 will be the year of the home buyer? we will ask the star of hit real estate tv show million dollar listing los angeles, josh flag, on what buyers and sellers are asking, which group needs to face a harsher reality and whether the housing market has hit bottom and, if not, when? if "claman countdown" is coming back in just a minute. and later, blackrock's larry fink. ♪ ♪ dad, we got this. we got this. we got this.

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liz: after years of being a seller's market, there's new, kind of hard evidence that real estate may be shifting in a much bigger way in favor of the buyer. a new report from realtor.com, this is a fresh report, reveals the housing market cooling way down in december. the number of homes for sale increased 54.7% year-over-year, and unsold homes including those under contract saw a 6% jump compared to 2021. this as the ceo of home builder pultegroup now warning, quote, interest rates are like the mother's milk of housing, and with rates continuing to rise, it's a huge problem for the sector. if let's talk to one of the most successful agents in the world here many a fox business exclusive, million dollar listing's los angeles real estate agent josh flagg. josh, pulte's ceo saying

housing's in big trouble. he makes it sound like rising rates are bad for the buyer and cropping interest, rising rates bad for the seller. what are you seeing? >> well, on honest with you, everyone thought 2023 -- since we're in the beginning, nobody knows what's going to happen, but so far everyone i see and talk to, and these are people with unbiased opinions seem very optimistic. now, i'm not saying is it going to be like the good old days? no. but no one i've spoken to is expecting an utter crash, everything to be a disaster. look, you have to think about it this way, and you been doing this a lot longer than i have, you remember when interest rates were, like, as to promom calcar okay? liz: no. i'm not that old, but my older siblings do remember that when it was, what, 17%? >> i think wasn't it even higher? wasn't it closer to 20?

liz: yes, but i was in utero at that point. [laughter] >> no, this was, like, in the '80s. whatever. anyway, the point is, the point of this is that we're still, people are spoiled, and people are -- liz: true. >> -- used to when we were printing money at 2%, okay? that was not moral, right? people need to acclimate to a new normal. even though we are higher now than we were last are year in june when you could get, you know, a mortgage even as low as in the 2s, that wasn't a moral time. and -- a normal time. look, business needs to continue as usual, and the market was on fire many years a ago when interest rates were a lot higher than 2%. it will happen again. from what i'm seeing, from the activity on the market right now, i am not seeing world war iii. i'm just not seeing it. liz: okay. but when you look at mortgage

rates, okay? latest print, bankrate.com says about 6.31%. now, while it is down over 30 basis points week over week, look at where it was in december. 3.22% a year ago -- well, let's call it january of last year. so one year ago it was half of that, and that, we mow those kinds of dislocations do affect, certainly, the buyer. but now a lot of sellers are saying, wait a minute, why am i having to lower my asking price? so if you're smart, if you're add advising smart would-be home buyers what is your best advice because i need to know has the housing market bottomed, and if not, when? yes. i tell my sellers, look, a house is worth what a buyer's going to pay for it. you want to sell your house or

you need to sell your house, price it appropriately. if you price it appropriately, you will get offers. what i tell my buyers is throw in a low bid. what do you have to lose? if there's not a line around the block, what's the difference? the only thing he can say is no. i find that there is a lot of deals to be had today. i find the biggest problem is that people are unwilling to put in offers because sellers are sk in the cloud where they think their house is worth more than -- liz: yeah. but, josh, kb homes says 68% cancellation rate. they just reported that. of new home construction in the fourth quarter of 2022. i mean, i know you're saying that this is what you're seeing, that things aren't as bad and it's not world war iii, but that's worrisome, isn't it? isn't that a ca flowerily in the coal mine? >> yes, it is worrisome. but does that mean, does that mean that we're actually going to -- we don't know what's going to happen.

look, kb homes is a huge company, and they have to do what they need to do to feel safe and warm and fuzzy and make investors feel good. i can only tell you based on what i'm seeing, and i see from the low end to the high end every day. now, granted, i am in los angeles and in california. prices are higher here. i'm aware of that. but i remember what happened many 2008. -- in 2008. this is nothing like that. and believe me, that, this is nothing even close to that. liz: all right. >> this is not even close to that. do i think this is going to be a fuzzy that la land for the next -- no, but i don't think that we're crashing. i think that, i think that people are going to acclimate to because they have to. otherwise, what, you're just not going to buy a house and everything just shuts off forever? it doesn't really work that way. i think that we had world's longest cycle. it was, this was well overdue. liz: right.

>> we knew this was going to stop the eventually, right? it's not crashed. we haven't, we're not in dire straits right now. the market is not what it was, but if people can just get used to the fact that interest rates are higher than what they were, but keep in mind they also just came down a little bit. isn't there the a little hope? liz: a little bit of hope. and, josh, hope and a prayer. we'll be watching your show, and it's great to see you. thank you for joining us. >> by, sweetheart. liz: million dollar listing's josh flagg. if you have any money left after down payment on a house, hen you might now have enough for a tesla. the ev maker chopping prices. by how much? these are brand new numbers and what's the fallout on the sector. we are going to show you next. plus, it is the must-watch interview of the day. blackrock ceo larry fink just a few minutes away. market-moving headlines coming your way. you don't want to miss our

interview with larry fink. closing bell, we are about 39 minutes away. dow is up 65, s&p better by so -- 10. the nasdaq better by 50. we are coming right back on "thb claman countdown." ♪ e straps are mind-blowing! they collect hundreds of data points like hrv and rem sleep, so you know all you need for recovery. and you are? i'm an investor...in invesco qqq, a fund that gives me access to... nasdaq 100 innovations like... wearable training optimization tech. uh, how long are you... i'm done. i'm okay. for back pain, i've always been a take two and call in the morning guy. but my new doctor recommended salonpas.

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should say, what with the cpi for december and all of the other action. we have the s&p looking to end the week up 2. 5%, and the nasdaq the biggest winner here, up 4.6%. let's get to tesla. tesla's roaring rally this week interrupted. shares are down now just about 1%, well off the lows of session. after the ev maker announced last night it is chopping prices for two of its most popular models here mt. u.s. and europe. tesla is going to slice nearly 0% off the price tag to -- 20% to boost sales. are you ready in model y crossover which was about, well, let's see, so to $52,9 90, that's just below the $55,000 cap that allows buyers to qualify for government tax incentives. all right, buyers will now qualify for the $7,500 u.s. government tax credit. and in the meantime, in order motor which has a growing ev

presence is sinking 5.33% following tesla's price cuts. the automaker is set to snap a winning streak. its first loss in 11 sessions. ford had gained more than 20% during that win streak. right now the stock is at $12.7-- 12.72. general motors, rivian, stellantis the, gm down 5%, rivian lower by 7%, and stellantis down nearly 4%. remember we were talking about carvana day before yesterday? it was going absolutely parabolic? well, it's taking investors for a spin only time down, down 14% at the moment after reports that the used car retailer is quietly terminating employees amid a further slowdown in sales. caravan ma also a reportedly cut costs in order to stay current on its $7 billion in debt. so, okay, you've got to see the week chart here, one-week chart.

they soared, what is that, 13%? 13.7, they sored 52? if -- soared 52? 52% this week in a retail trade-related surge that also boosted many of the meme stocks. shares sill down 97% from their peak. a stock shooting for the stars at this hour, space tourism company virgin galactic is soaring 13.33% after saying its commercial space flight service launch is on track to occur in the second quarter of this year. virgin galactic also expects its mother ship to begin ground tests next week. that is a $5.23 stock. let's check yield on the 30-year treasury. it rose today 3.8 basis points at moment or 3.6% as some investors question a rate cut scenario later this year. keep dreaming, folks. the fed has said it won't happen. but as the long bond coupon rise, so does the kitty for, of

all things, the mega millions jackpot. the prize is based on the rate of interest pate outside -- paid out on the 30-year u.s. treasury. right now it's at $#.35 billion, that is, of course, the lotto, the fourth largest ever. madison alworth, i can only imagine what it's like at the newsstand by grand central station in new york city. >> reporter: liz, i mean, it was crazy during lunch. we've been here all day. we still the see people coming in, getting that ticket before the drawing tonightful they're the all hoping to be that lucky winner, become a billionaire. but i do want to point out the odds of winning are 1 in 302.6 million. so slim, but i guess technically possible. what seems even more possible, what we keep seeing, is these giant jackpots. you remember back in november, we saw largest jackpot ever, over $2 billion. and that is in part, like you said, hanks to the fed. that -- thanks to the fed.

so taking a look at that 30-year chart, the 30-year treasury rate is up in part thanks to the fed, and when that is up, the jackpot gets bigger. we spoke to lottery officials, and they told us really big indicator of when these games get bigger, when jackpot grows is more about that ticket sale number. and there's two things for this particular jackpot that are making it increase. the first being that november jackpot, because it was so large, people are excited and buying tickets. the other piece, the holidays. you buy for family and friends, and people also like to play it for themselves. so like i said, if this store's any indication, if no one is selected tonight, i can almost guarantee it's going to give that november record breaker a run for its money unless someone is that lucky 1 in 302.6 million,ly. liz: oh, wow. thank you, madison. if you threw the lump sum into the s&p 500, it would be around a 4.3% return. we just want to tell you that.

the s&p 500's return on average, annual average since 1950, 9%. as you angle, dream, maybe fret about where to put your assets, the man who's the ceo and cofounder of the world's largest asset manager, blackrock, larry fink is going to join us live after the firm's earnings beated today. we're going to hear what his investors are saying about the odds of recession, what he thinks. plus, the disarray on capitol hill. what about the odds of a government default, and what would that do to the markets? the danger of it? we're talking all of that plus crypto, the fed and is more with charlie gasparino and larry fink. it's a big free-for-all here. stay tuned, and we're going to go long on interview. closing bell is 29 minutes away. the dow is climbing even higher, up 87 points. larry fink next. ♪ ♪

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liz: all right. let's take a look at black brach locke shares, they are up about a quart of a -- blackrock shares after the world's largest asset manager posted a beat on both the top and bottom line. but the turbulent 2022 market action still evident in its fourth quarter results. revenue did fall 14% year-over-year, but what will 2023 bring on so many levels? let's bring in the chairman and ceo, larry fink, live with me and charlie gasparino. charlie's right here, let's go, larry. >> hi, charlie. happy new year. >> you know, you've been around wall street a long time, you've seen a lot of ups and downs, the financial crisis, you're one of the best risk managers around. i guess they say anybody can answer this question, it's you. are we in a recession? are we heading to a recession? and if we are, how deep do you

think it'll the be? >> we're not in a recession yet, but a high probability we're going to be going into a recession. we're seeing housing market really, you know, collapse from the peak levels that we saw last year. we're seeing auto sales starting to fall quite considerably. and we're starting to see, actually, more and more consumers borrowing against their retirement. so they had huge pools of money during covid, hay weren't commuting, they received some principal payments, and that had that has mostly diminished. and is so right now we're at this point where we're not in a recession, but if the pathway continues in this direction, and i believe it will be, we're going to be many a moiled recession. and, absolutely -- mild recession. and absolutely, there's no reason to be many a deep recession, there's too many things going on in our economy to be in a deep recession. and, in fact, because of the very much warm weather that

europe has experienced so far winter, europe is not going to be the as deep a recession also because energy prices have stabilized there too. and and so all of that will lead to a recession of some magnitude, we don't believe it's going to be that deep or that long. but my bigger issue is not how deep or how long the recession is, my bigger issue is our economy, most economies today are not going to be the able to rely on having any more fiscal stimulus for years to come. >> interesting. >> we're not going to be able to have the central bank easing. the central bank's going to continue to do quantitative tightening, selling the securities they bought during covid. >> right. >> they're going to be keeping rates higher for longer, and all of that will mean we have to rely on the private sector and market capitalism to continue -- >> and growth. we need economic growth.

>> we need private sector more than ever before. and i just don't see that. if you look at what has happened during covid and what is happening in the world today, and i call it my hope/fear barometer the, there's growing fear worldwide, there's -- and we don't see the leadership around talking about, you know, let's have hope for the future. blackrock's business is about retirement. people don't put money in retirement unless they have hope. why on earth would you put a pool on money that's sitting safely in a bank to invest in the markets, to invest in retirement for a 30-year outcome unless you believe the future is better than today? >> well -- >> and that's one of the big issues that's going on. so we need to restore hope. we all have a responsibility to say tomorrow has, we have a great future. we're in a great position as a country, and importantly, we have some really wonderful companies that are going to be driving growth in the future. >> well, we don't have a wonderful government. we have a very -- and i don't

say divided, just parties divided. we have two parties that are at each other's throats right now. you witnessed what happened with the republicans and their speaker selection, but the democrats and republicans at loggerheads. janet yellen today the warned that we will reach the debt limit next thursday. and you need to, and there's going to be some turmoil around that. i guess, and you know bond market better than anybody, again, you're an expert at stuff. is there more than a theoretical chance that the u.s. will default because of the political, this sort of political wedge that is deeper than anytime that i've seen it in a long time and probably you too? >> well, we had this problem in 2012 when there was a really, you know, and we were downgrade- >> right. >> let's be clear, the united states is not a aaa country anymore because of the events that happened in 2012. we're a aa+if country. just think about what that

means. we were downgraded because of the events in 201 because there was a real -- 2012 because there was a real chance of default. i hope the events of 2012 will bring these issues related to should we default -- >> but, larry, i guess my question is do we have a real chance of default now, in your view? >> well, if we saw the lack of function within congress, if we don't have congress try to find a way to move forward, of course we have that risk. i would just urge every lawmaker to be focused on the responsibility. we owe our creditors money. we have a $31 trillion deficit, and, you know, it's surprising how large it is, to me, and it represents huge risk for the united stateswe do not -- if we

do not, you know, act responsibly. if we don't say to our creditors, you know, we're going to meet our payments, we are going to, we're going to do this, you know, we could all talk about what should the u.s. budget be, we could all talk about how we could lower our deficits over long run, but what was considered standard behavior just, you know, raising the debt the limit and now it has become politicized, that is always a big fear and a big problem. and it remains to be a big fear and problem, and it may continue to become a bigger issue. markets fell, you know, thousands of points in 2012 on that that threat. we are just stabilizing -- liz: and '11, larry. we've seen, if anybody wants to know how scary it is, this bickering and dithering over debt ceiling, and we know what's going on with the republicans and kevin mccarthy and all of

that. you mow that the market had fallen between july and suspect about 14, 15%. but here's the question, larry. you know, you just talked about some of your investors who are borrowing on their actual retirement funds. that's certainly worrisome. we are flirting with recession, and you say there's a high probability, is the answer to spend -- well, we can't spend more money, we've spent too much. but brings in the federal reserve. is federal reserve going to be forced to pause earlier and maybe even cut rates earlier than it says, which is well beyond 2024? >> well, i hope that is not hais just trying to be nonpolitical. obviously, if the actions by congress crypts a -- creates a more dramatic threat of a deeper recession, then heir going to have to react to that action -- they're going to have to react to that action. i think that would be a very bad

long-term reaction if the principal reserve -- because it will probably lead to more inflation again, and we're just behind that big, giant inflation wave. we're starting to stabilize. you know, so many that families witnessed huge increases in food, in energy inflation. we could go on and on about those policies and why we had that. the last thing we need is now the federal reserve to become more still, to stimulate the economy -- liz: so you're saying do not cut rates, that you believe the fed should not? >> well, the federal reserve should do what hay believe is right related to the day data -- data. if the economy rolls over because of the actions of congress and we have a default and we have, then, you know, the federal reserve's going to have to do whatever's appropriate to try to stabilize the economy. >> wow. you really do think there's a chance of default. >> no, i, you know, i think we

all, we all should take, you know, play a responsible role and work with government to say this is just not, this is not responsible. right. >> we have our, you know, every human being who takes out a mortgage, takes out debt, we all mow we have a responsibility to pay back that debt -- we all know we have a responsibility to pay back that debt. our government has issued debt to the tune of $31 trillion. it is our responsibility, it is our global responsibility to make good on those payments. you think about the benefits of it being the currency of world, which we are, energy payments are paid in dollars. that's because we're the reserve currency. we need to be a leader in making sure that reserve currency is the correct currency, and we deserve that right. and so playing -- >> russian roulette --

[laughter] >> whatever you want to call it related to the debt ceiling is what i would, is something that it's inconceivable to me. but unfortunately, it's something that we have to address right now and think about. liz: charlie, stand by. larry, stand by. this conversation's continuing. we want to know what you think about the crypto, job cuts coming and much more. larry fink is coming right back on "the claman countdown." don't go away. dow is up 95 pointses. ♪ ♪

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liz: back with blackrock chairman and ceo larry fink. charlie, blackrock does have some expose our, just under $40 million of convertible notes that file for bankruptcy. what is the interest on the side of investors since the arrest of sam bankman-fried fraud charges. >> i think there was way too much enthusiasm towards crypto.

but the opportunities in the digdigitizing currency. focusing on the opportunities we have related to crypto. i do believe we have to work very carefully in building out the system for cryptoon just the bot chain. i'm talking about better connectivity, more regulated, more aml. i with believe the purpose of crypto is going to play a big role. i think if you think about the cost it takes to do transactions today in this modern world, they are very expensive. the cost of transactions in the united states are higher than they are in the emerging world to move money from point a to point b.

crypto can play a role. that being said we'll have to make sure it's properly regulated. one of the whole foundations of crypto is it would be a distributed ledger. that we'll have checks and balances that everybody is able to connect. the ftx platform and other platforms were closed platforms. they were not what trip to is about. bitcoin was created with the idea we are going to have true checks and balances through a distributed ledger. we can verify and validate who is the owner, who is the seller, and it creates a real system. that's a technology that will be very important. charlie: we know the technology could be important and it's still in its nascent stages.

it's often divorced from the digital coins which is a speculative play often. do you see the sec coming in and imposing so much regulation on crypto that it basically weeds out everything but a few core county and some of the block chain? is there a possibility this gets squished down from 800 billion down to 200 billion and it's a lot smaller. >> there is no question there has to be proper checks and balances and the aml. that can be very important. whether that's the sec or some regulator. we have to make sure who is buying and who is selling and it's proper. beyond that the answer is i hope

not. i believe this is real. i believe there is real opportunity for this. i believe more and more of the large financial services companies will be be part of this in playing a role. it's nascent. as you said. this remind me of the music streaming business. it was put under. but now it's common that we stream our music. charlie: how can digital coins do you think will exist a year from now? >> i don't think we -- we need that's. let's start a digitized dollar. and some form of a crypto asset. whether it's bitcoin or a new bitcoin. if people want to invest in things uncorrelated to any one currency or one market, and

that's what gold used to be, and can we create this uncorrelated asset class that can play that role? beyond that in most cases what digitizization of crypto. to me there is more hype than what it basically is. we are doing a great deal of study on it. we invested in one company that's doing very, very well in the stable coin arena. we are doing a great deal of studying. liz: can you say which one? >> publicly invested in circle. circle is one -- every investor's money goes into a government security. so there are companies doing the right thing continuously. but let's be clear. crypto right now if you look at

how much fees are being charged, it's a very expensive venture to take your u.s. dollars and put it into some crypto instrument. you are taking out a lot of fees. when you want to convert your crypto or token back into dollars, it's very expensive. but people should be aware of how much fees you are paying. and we are studying it because we believe in the technology. we are studying on the ideal that one day we may be able a tokennize stocks and bonds and that would transform the securities market. liz: i want to know your favorite investment for 2023. >> it depend on the time you will be investing for. for the first time in five, six years you will make a good return on owning bonds.

a two-year treasury. you can own credit at 5, a 1/2. and high yield at 7 to 8 percent. i gave a talk to 50 different pension funds. five years ago they couldn't invest in bonds. today they can relook at their portfolio and can be investing heavier in bonds. charlie, larry, i can talk to you all day, all night. i just want to say, don't let the haters get you down. i saw inflows into blackrock. liz: you are doing just with fine. we thank you so much for joining us. markets finished the week higher. we are live and right here so we hope to see you monday.

larry: hello, folks, welcome