like elizabeth holmes, and a few folks carve out reputations for warning the worst is going to come and humankind is doomed. in a couple years the waves of deals will go public amid amazing fanfare, folks. you'll see countdown clocks and all this stuff. so, that is when the wild-wild west will be unleashed. when it is time for those investors who are currently pouring in billions to get paid because folks, the people who are pouring in billions right now, they're not the dummies. they control the narrative and when the time is right they find a way to make sure that you flock in, right, and these ipo's , these blockbuster doorbusting, um, extravaganzas, they are going to make sure that you find a way to go in there and buy the stock from them. i think i'm right, liz. liz: it's a travesty of a mockery of a sham. charles: [laughter] liz: as woody allen would say, charles did you see elizabeth holmes wants to be called liz? charles: no, i didn't know that. i read she lived in an rv for

six months. liz: yeah, okay. so did i. charles: [laughter] liz: charles, thank you very much. charles: see you later. liz: we're calling this the quicksand market, folks , just when it starts to look solid enough you can walk you've got to be very careful because at any moment you can sink. right now, standing mostly we've got the dow jones industrials down 40 points the s&p is up five, had been down, height of the session or the low of the session down about 12 points we've got the nasdaq up 28, it had been down 57. all over the map here russel 2,000 down four. friday stocks you may remember ripped higher on the belief the ground had hardened after days of very messy losses. investors interpreted the gains in region all banks with the stronger than expected april jobs report as evidence that the economy is setup for a softer landing. well the regionals as you know, because you were here with me, you better have been on friday, they shot higher on the back of huge gains for pacwest, western alliance, which had both

struggled just the day before. at this hour, pacwest and western alliance are adding on to friday's gains but the s&p regional banking etf which basically has more than 140 small and mid-size banks stuffed into it has not been able to hold on to the earlier gains, and despite friday's 6% move, it is still down 35% year-to-date at the moment we do have the kr e down more than 1%. the aftershocks from the collapse of that trio of banks, silicon valley bank, signature and first republic, in just the last hour, the latest fed senior loan officer opinion survey showed quarter-over-quarter u.s. banks have tightened their lending standards for both business and most consumer credit. no doubt they are tightening their lend standards after the bank christ his started after you may remember, silicon valley bank found that the longer duration treasuries with very low interest rates, that they had packed on their

balance sheets, had soured because rates are now much higher, and just last week, they went higher. federal reserve hiked interest rates for the tenth time in a row, that is the fastest pace in 40 years. shorter dated treasury yields are paying way more interest, looking at the two year right now. it's at 3.98%. it continues to rise, and by the way, it is that many, let's see , i'm doing the math, 16 basis points, 26 basis points higher than where it was just on thursday, and we need to show you the one month. everybody whatever you're doing stop and look on the screen. the yield on the one month t- bill is now at 5.39%, and why is the fed still hiking? well, of course they say to tackle inflation. wednesday we get the latest read on the consumer inflation. that be the april cpi. it's expected to come in at four -tenths of a percent month-over-month above the one- tenth of a percent the month earlier and year-over-year price growth

expected to hold steady at march 's 5% pace, and that's just the headline number. thursday, we're getting the ppi , april's read on manufacturing inflation, and friday, consumer sentiment, which excludes, includes, rather , inflation expectations. so we need to know about that. these are very important data points that have the power to yank the market in all sorts of directions. so, until then, unless you're a trader, are investors frozen in place? let's get right to the floor show, we have trader scott redler and chris whalen, the top banking analyst. chris with quicksand we know the ground looks very solid but it's actually water logged so when you step on it, it liquifies. you sat on this set, seven weeks ago when the silicon valley bank disaster began and you said this is not over. how about now, seven weeks later >> no, nothings really changed, liz. you know, you pointed out the short-term rates up a quarter of a point. doesn't really matter. that effects a productive economy and the long end is how

you measure the mark-to-market on realized losses that got the banks in trouble but fundamentally the low coupons inside these banks which are trading at 85 compared to 104 when they were issued are the problem. people know that those losses are there, and they're going to wait until the effect of it is even more visible, so for example, since the bank failures , what's happened? bank officers, people who run banks, have had to change their pricing on deposits. we put out a note this morning. we think the cost of funds for banks is going to double this quarter. so what that means is that they are going to basically reprice to the treasuries like you said. what was that, 5.20 for a month, you were just mentioning? liz: yeah. >> that's who they have to compete with. that's it. so the fed wants them to compete with the treasury and the banks that don't make that adjustment process quickly and with great purpose, are not going to survive. liz: yeah, i can't even believe it. you look at the two month, the

three-month t-bills, they all have a five handle for their yield. >> that's right. but look at someone like bank of america which loves to keep mortgages, that they make to their customers. i have a good friend out on the west coast, very prominent financial guy with a 2.25 30- year mortgage. the bank of america kept, okay? when brian is paying 5% for funding, into this year, how's that 2.25 going to look? you know? that in a capsule form is what's troubling the banking industry. they have all these assets that were created during covid and they are going to lose their shirts and the fed has to figure out a way to finesse this. if we don't, we're going to have a problem. liz: okay, now let's broaden the discussion to the actual investor whose watching and saying so what do we do? if you look at the s&p 500, scott redler, you love to look at this level, and where it goes meaning in the rear view mirror, and right now at the moment we're at 41.40 for the s&p. this is the one year picture. we're kind of, scott, exactly

where we were. >> well you've been dancing around this now almost for two years we visited this spot so many times so investors right now -- liz: there's the two year. >> what's important is they just keep putting their monthly flows in. consolidation phases happen. we've been in the 10 year bull market. we made a hyatt 4,800 or so in the s&p cash so there is times when you go sideways and you have to stay the course. everyone is talking about doomsday. they are have been forecasting recession since december. every time we go into the quicksand all of a sudden you get a strong jobs report to remind everyone we're not in a recession yet. maybe we're just normalizing. maybe we're back at 4.5% in rates. we're at 1-2% gdp and we'll squeeze out the excess because that's what the fed is trying to do. they want to squeeze out the excess because inflation was too high. liz: and you are saying, okay, you're a trader. a lot of people who are watching are not but they have money and they have been putting it in you say keep dollar cost averaging? >> keep dollar cost averaging into the s&p 500. i think within the next two or

three years, we'll be back at an all-time high. if you're a trader stay away from the regional banks. they have been broken since march. no reason to go there. there's no reason. liz: chris, how many people have asked you in the past couple weeks, hey, do you think first republic is a good buy here? my nephew was trying to pick it up at a very low price, and then he sold it at the high and then wanted to do it again. this is a dangerous game. >> no, but i love regionals. i was in western alliance basically accumulating them for the eventual drop-in rates and the next rally in housing, right? but there's no reason to own it right now because the fed is basically giving us a price problem. liz: what is the signal that investors should look for to say now i can buy western alliance. >> when you start to see the mortgage issuers like mr. cooper moving higher. they are actually quite cheap, but you know, i own guild, which is the best performer in the industry. they are very cheap now because

volumes are weak. when you see them moving, that's the time to look at western alliance, new york community bank, which is now a big player in mortgages. >> i'll tell you -- >> no hurry. >> no hurry, my traders have been trading these things and they made much more money on the short side than the long side. >> but you're trading. trading is good. that's the attitude you need to have. >> but some were trading and all of a sudden they get halted and it doesn't open up and it's a zero so active money needs to stay away. liz: should it be going into how about individual equity names that look good? google, apple, i'm not saying they look good. you're saying they look good. >> things that might not be a zero overnight. that's why money is floating because there's a lot of money on the balance sheet. a lot of these stocks have been working. microsoft came out with a great report and had follow through after. we just had apple. i think investors could actually get involved in apple and i think within the next month or so, it could be at a new all-time high. the bears can't growl too loud if apple is at a new all-time

high and you have amazon getting a little bit better and google getting a little bit better so being the things working that are a little bit safer there's an actual trend and the problem with the market is theres no trend in the s&p, so until we break out above 4,200 maybe we get by the cpi and ppi this week and if they are kind of in line because right now the streets floating they might be a little hotter so we have to get through the volatility and if we do so, there are reports right now that hedge funds are more short, the s&p than they have been since 2011. what happens if all of a sudden inflation is in line, we just got through earnings. liz: and we rip higher. >> it could happen and then we see 43.25. liz: scott, chris, thank you very much and again we're keeping our eye on the kre, that basket of regionals and right now it's down about one and one-third percent very close to the session low here at 37.84 , session low 37.49 on your screen you can see could not hold those gains from the morning. oil on the rise. you just saw the banner that said oil gushing higher it is for the second day in a row as

recession fears for the moment take a back seat but with berkshire hathaway ceo warren buffett making a worrisome prediction which by the way he based on actual evidence he is seeing, is black gold headed for red? you will hear what warren buffett warned and famed energy expert andy lipow will tackle what it means to oil investing. closing bell 49 minutes away, the dow jones industrials down 48 points call it 51 and the s&p still up three. we are coming right back.

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liz: black gold spurting higher during both the regular and after market session, oil closed out this afternoon up 2.5%. right now, we're up 2.25%, so, just about the same, $72.95 a barrel. the monday move follows three straight weekly declines. the longest losing streak since november. the rebound of course today and friday driven in part by, you could say, receding recession fears thanks to that robust april jobs report, but if you look at gasoline, rbob wholesale is up 3% right now.

$2.46 again this is wholesale. that means inflation could remain hotter for longer, and we do get that core cpi on wednesday, and that would exclude volatile food and energy yeah, so, when you're looking at the headline number that is going to factor into it and don't forget, opec + releases its monthly report on thursday. the first since its new production cuts. it's a lot of cross-currents for investors to dodge lucky we've got andy lipow of lip out oil associates in a fox business exclusive. andy, we always say it's important or the show to put things into perspective, so yes. two up days but if you look overtime, we have year-over-year crude is down 20%, year-to-date it down 9% and we can get into gasoline and what that's doing but what does it tell you that we've had two up days or are we looking too much into this? >> well i think you're right. there are a lot of cross-current s in the oil market , and the last two days are really not reflective of what we seen over the last six

weeks. if we look back to the end of march, what's happened since then, the market is acting like we're in a recession. we've had 450,000-barrels a day of oil taken off the market, and then in early april, opec + comes with a surprise, 1.16 million-barrels a day cut, along with the russians who have announced they are cutting production by 500,000-barrels a day through the end of the year, and you mix on top of that, the u.s. is seizing iranian oil on the water, and the iranians are seizing oil destined for the united states that's on the water, and the market is still down below where it was on march 31. liz: exactly. so i'm glad we put that into perspective. as an investment if you look at some of the integrated oils or the refiners, the drillers, you can see that they haven't done exactly as well as some people would have anticipated, and we know last year was an outlier,

just an incredible year, but some of these names. i mean, you could argue that pbf energy, marathon, phillips, we've got them on the screen, valero, had really interesting moves. chevron is down 10% year-to-date , halliburton down 22%, valero down 13% and the list goes on, so when do you start buying these, if not now? >> well, if i talk first about these pure play refiners like marathon, phillips 66, pbf energy and hf sinclair, they have been really beaten down over the last several weeks as fears of a recession come into the refining sector, thinking there's going to be less demand for gasoline and diesel fuel. i think right now, these refiners are under valued and that investors should start building a position in each of these. on the oil producers when we think about these big integrated oil companies, the exxons, shell , bp, i think you have to

take a much longer horizon on it , really to the end of the year, where the market is simply worried about supply. world oil demand is continuing to increase. we've seen rays of light in china as they reopen their economy, but the spending on production has really been quite lackluster and so i think on a longer term basis the integrated oil companies are a good investment to be making. when we do think about occidental, it has rallied quite a bit over the last year or so, with higher oil prices, but when warren buffett came out and said that they aren't going to take a controlling interest in the company, the stock sold off. liz: yup, and speaking of warren buffett, very interesting here, it sold off down 2.7% but over the weekend, warren buffett used his 70-plus company conglomerate of berkshire hathaway to make a declaration about where he sees the economy going in the

short-term, and specifically , he said that the feedback we get is that i would say our business, a majority of our businesses will actually report lower earnings this year than last year, in the last six months or so, of various times. the businesses have left the incredible period. it was an extraordinary period, and that period has ended, and then, charlie munger chimed in, put a little more bluntly. he said get used to making less. that means a recession to me, whether it's shallow, we can argue that, but how would that play into oil? because people useless oil during economic slowdowns. >> well, certainly a recession is very bearish for oil prices and we've seen that happen in the past during 2008-2009 as well as back in 2014 and 2015 when oil prices in both of those years tumbled to below $40 a barrel.

so it is quite concerning, and one of warren buffett's companies is pilot flying j, the owner of all of these truck stops around the country and even there, they're seeing less demand for their diesel fuel, and what we're seeing from the consumer is they're buying less stuff, which means that container freight rates from china are declining. liz: coming down. >> trucking rates are declining as well as railroad freight haul is going down. all signs of really a slowing economy and these are really bad things for the oil market, who depends on these industries for diesel demand. liz: remember when diesel was, i don't know, $8 a gallon, a year and a half ago? a year ago it was 5.53. now, it's $4.04, and let me just say this. yeah, okay so we've seen the rig count come down but we can get rid of that because i think this is interesting here. it's very important, i think, to talk about black swans, and now

we're thinking about the fact that we have the straight of hor muse in the middle east and you've got iran seizing two oil freighters. two oil tankers. could that be some type of black swan that hits the oil markets and spikes prices? >> well, i think it can. we saw this tit-for-tat between the united states and iran seizing tankers a year ago in may, and now we're seeing it occur again and what is clearly worrying the oil market is somewhere along the line a mistake is made, or you see the picture of a burning tank erin the middle of where a significant amount of the world oil is passing through every single day, so it is really quite a concern that tensions continue to ratchet up between the united states and iran, who are also aligning themselves with russia, you know, as far as being really against the

united states. liz: andy, there's always something to talk about with the oil markets isn't there? but for the moment it's great for the consumer. thank you so much for tuning in >> thanks for having me. liz: andy lipow. your time is worth something, right? so when your flight is delayed, or canceled, president biden says you should be paid. coming up, the details on the new rules he's just proposed that compensate travelers for their trouble, and what it might mean for airline stocks. closing bell 37 minutes away. the dow is deepening its losses down about 61 points, s&p is now clinging to just a one point gain, nasdaq is holding on to 16 points. we are coming right back with a lot more so don't go away. dad, we got this. we got this.

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liz: the bulls are tipping the scales in favor of z-scaler the cybersecurity stock is rocketing 20% higher right now, after pre-announcing better-than-expected fiscal third quarter results, the company also raised its annual forecast. today's move does come after shares of z-scaler hit their lowest level in about three years. so, nowhere near the highs which were of course at the end of 2021. the good news lifting other cybersecurity stocks as well, palo alto networks, crowdstrike is all in the green and by the way fort net also received an upgrade from bank of america, so it is up about 2%.

palo alto networks up nearly 4%. tyson foods having a tough day. just moments ago hitting a session low, it is down 17.5% right now. the meat producer is at the three-year low after posting a surprise $97 million loss for the first quarter. tyson also cut its sales outlook for the full year as price hikes hurt demand, which is unusual, because we've heard mcdonald's and pepsico instituting price hikes that did not hurt the demand but for the moment it hurt tyson. american airlines, let's look at that one. it just got an upgrade from neutral to overweight over jpmorgan. jpmorgan also raised its price target on the airline from $26 to $29 per share. it's at 14.37 right now up 3.6% but a bit of a ways to go before it hits anywhere from 26-to-29. jpmorgan citing better-than-expected progress on reducing the total debt.

now according to jpmorgan, the airline is now 60% of the way to reducing total debt by $15 billion by the end of 2025. now, american airlines moved to pay off debt. obviously, very nobel. very helpful, but it may stop dead in its tracks, if it, along with other u.s. carriers, have to suddenly shell out penalties for delayed or canceled flights president biden just in the past couple of hours proposed new rules requiring airlines to compensate passengers when the carriers are responsible for flight plans that drastically changed. lydia hu is live in the newsroom looking at what this means. lidia, we know it certainly is welcome, i'm sure, for airline passengers, but what about airline stocks and the shareholders of those names? >> well you know, liz, what we're talking about today is this proposal for rulemaking, so we're a long way off of these rules taking effect, if they ever do, but surely, if they are forced to pay fees to travelers

that's going to come out of revenues, and investors are not going to like that for the airline stocks, so for now, we know the biden administration says that this propose proposed rule will encourage airlines to be on:, they say, with flights and help americans afford the climbing price of a ticket. wavelength this. >> the faa and department of transportation are doing our part but airlines need to accept their fundamental responsibility to better serve passengers. >> they matter most to middle class families and people struggling to get the cost in the first place. reporter: you know, tickets are expensive. airfare is up more than 17% over a year ago, but the airline industry, it questions how this proposal requiring airlines to compensate travelers for delays and cancellations that are "controllable" how that will improve flight performance. airlines for america, a trade association representing delta, united and american and others

point out most disruptions are caused by the weather and they add, "u.s. airlines have no incentive to delay or cancel a flight and do everything in their control to ensure flights depart and arrive on time" but safety is always the top priority. now, this plan follows months of finger pointing between the federal government and the airlines, with shortages and air traffic controllers, lack of preparation for bad weather and overbooked flight schedules being flamed for the poor performances. mandating compensation may sound enticing to the everyday traveler but some warn, this could hurt the budget flier watch. >> will it lead to higher airfares? there is legitimate concern out there that airfares could end up being so expensive that a certain portion of the market is priced out. reporter: now, liz, for now, it's unclear how much and under what circumstances travelers be

compensated. that's part of the rulemaking process and there's also no real clear timeline on when a rule could take effect, liz, they are just starting the conversation now. liz: yeah, okay, take your time, everybody. [laughter] yeah, when it's their fault, not weather, right? important to stress, certainly. reporter: that's right. liz: looking at bitcoin, folks, and it is under pressure. you've gotta say it's under pressure down $2,114 to 27, 472 after crypto exchange binance briefly halted withdrawals twice over the past 24 hours. yes. we'll tell you why they say they did that, but before you get panicked and start selling your bitcoin, you need to hear from bitcoin foundation chairman brock pierce. he was the bitcoin baby years and years ago. he says there's something coming up on the calendar that could make bitcoin soar, and it's coming right out of washington

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liz: we need to talk about crypto. crypto and crypto-related stocks are sinking on the session after the world's largest crypto exchange, binance, halted bitcoin withdrawals for i want to say about three hours today, after being temporarily halted for an hour last night as well. now, binance says that the halt was caused by a glut glut of tending transactions due to heavy volumes and surge in processing fees. not sure if some people are buying that but in the meantime, people were turning and asking questions later. bitcoin not only left the $30,000 level, it is now below 28,000. it is down seven-plus percent after breaching the 30,000 critical point back in april, and everybody was sort of rejoycing on that.

now the last time bitcoin had been above 30,000 was june of 2022. between the regional banking crisis though, and the debt ceiling debacle that we appear to be barreling toward, where is crypto headed, because some of those things have actually helped people it higher. let's bring in bitcoin foundation chairman and an early, early investor in bitcoin, brock pierce. i first have to get your thought on binance. i don't know it looks like a run on the bank, or a run on the brokerage to some people. what does it look like to you? >> well, i think the nuance that people are missing is that there has actually been a massive increase in bitcoin transactions, because of the thing called ordinals. i don't want to take us too deep down a rabbit hole that everyone doesn't even know and that's that ethererum and all of the other use cases for blockchain technology is back to the godfather to the beginning in bitcoin, things like nft, alternative use cases,

so there's a lot of new activity occurring in bitcoin we hadn't seen in many many years and as a result we are seeing growing pains, a lot of growth in bitcoin in terms of transactions , and so i don't think this is anything to worry about, but yes. we've seen some huge increase in throughput for things that are unrelated to bitcoin transactions. liz: okay, so, this fall of 7% right now, you think that this will soon recover and give us a reason as to why you believe that. >> well so the increase in transactions are for an alternative use case of the technology, trying to take some of the blockchain technology nft-type things, and bringing it back to bitcoin and so we are going to see how that evolves overtime. this is not something that should spook you. actually it's a positive thing for bitcoin, that bitcoin is finding new use cases, at least from my perspective, so i think it's a positive thing, not a negative thing, though anything

can cause investors to be spook ed. liz: well i'll tell you something. what did look positive on the surface was the royaling of the regional banks, and eight weeks ago, you started to see some real movement in bitcoin to the upside, because of course, bitcoin, for those of you who don't remember, was created in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis where people stopped trusting the banks and the trust has been dinged now and bruised once again in some cases, although everybodies deposits so far have been covered. we got a looming debt ceiling now, brock, and june 1 appears to be that date. i don't care what any of the politicians say. there are like five working days when both the leadership of congress and the senate and president biden are in d.c. at the same time, so, if we get closer and closer to this , how do you predict bitcoin will move? >> well, i mean, bitcoin is a

hedge, it's not the only one. obviously there's gold and other things, but it is a hedge against financial uncertainty, and clearly as trust is being eroded in the call it the traditional banking sector, which we rely on that trust, and because of bad decisions, over leverage, a whole host of things like we saw in 2008, some people are losing trust. trust is eroding, and they are looking for alternatives. i'm not saying crypto is the alternative, but it's an alternative, and something that everybody should be at least familiar with. when i talk to family offices and people that are skeptical, i generally say you should look at probably 1% or 2% asset allocation as a hedge. whether you like it or not, it is worthy of at least consideration and discussion and thought in times of financial uncertainty, and we're clearly living in that moment. liz: when you hear janet yellen say that we absolutely must hike the debt ceiling, must raise it, i get it.

we don't want to default on our debt and not pay our obligations that's never happened before, but without any negotiation at all, when it comes to at least cutting spending a bit, or going, you know, not even using some of the pandemic money that is still just sitting there, and she says we are facing an absolute catastrophe. what goes through your mind, because we know you're interested in running for office , as a be politician, what do you think? >> well, i mean, as an individual, as an american , i have the responsibility of balancing my own budget, as an individual. government has more tools at their exposure, but this is something everybody can understand. you can't be spending far more than you make. you can't be borrowing against the future and spending the futures money at the futures expense, and this is something that obviously we can all understand. it's not just a decision that gets made in the big rooms. you can't spend far more than you make.

you can't keep borrowing from the future without some fiscal responsibility. it's pretty basic. this is basic arithmetic. even kids could understand this , and you know, obviously, it's complex. i don't want to understate it, and we have to manage difficulty and very complicated situations, but yes, clearly, we have to talk about cutting cost, as we're continuing to print and spend money, to manage through the crisis that we are, you know , seem to [technical difficulties] liz: okay, brock, you froze there. thank you, brock. i think that you made a lot of sense and i'm glad we got all of that in. i'll tell you something. everybody out there watching has a household budget and hopefully , you don't spend more than what you have coming in, so we need to really kind of tackle the spending issue. brock pierce, much appreciated. reports abound about a potential shorting ban on banking stocks. is this 2008 all over again,

when the ability to short certain bank names was shutdown? is that a good idea or a bad idea? charlie gasparino has more on that next plus our countdown closer on ways to get around that shorting ban if it happens. legally say you really don't believe in the banks but you want to bet on it that way? oh, we'll show you how.

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liz: we've got two stories. this is a two-headed gasparino scoop here. into governor ron desantis may be weeks away from finally announcing the 2024 presidential run. charlie gasparino speak speaking to a top republican operative. >> they're signaling the announcement whatever it is, likely he will run, still likely, not saying definitely, likely, is going to be around memorial day. so you're looking at the end of may. the way it was described to mish so me mem recall dayish.

around the end of the month he will make his decision. he is likely to do it. there is wiggle room between definitely planning. >> can we put up memorial dayish? >> you can give my source credit senior government affairs official at major wall street firm, can't say who, desantis knows his name well, the desantis campaign is out there. get to the short selling ban, there comes every now and then with tumult in the financial industry. should federal regulators, securities & exchange commission ban short selling a bet against a stock of systemchy important company hike important company like a show you what happened in 2008. it is fascinating should have this. the minute they announced that

short selling ban look what happened to the s&p. what it did essentially put more uncertainty and worry into the markets. if you ban, people were saying was, if you're banning the short sale of morgan stanley and goldman sachs, how bad is it? that is what sources are telling the fox business network. the sec staff is now against this ban on the regional bank stocks despite lots of talk it could happen. jpmorgan put out a report. gary gensler kind of hinted he would go after market manipulation, short selling on regional shares i reported that last week. looking maybe at a ban on short selling on bank stocks. that is financial technique. people say short sellers spread rumors, negative stuck. that does happen. people pump stocks by the way.

it is not positive and it is not accurate. be that as it may the staff is against it because the history of this stuff is not very good. we showed you that chart. if this does get done, i know you have a guest that wants to talk about this, if this gets done will be political move by gensler and his political staff. his political circle. the staff itself, the career people are against it. liz: can i just say during the 2008 financial crisis the staff and the head of the sec were republicans when they banned short selling, cox? >> who cares? liz: it works both ways. i want to make sure it is clear. >> this is not a political story. this is a knee-jerk story of regulators when they hear from, back then, in 2008, john mack at morgan stanley said, goldman sachs, you got to ban short selling, what people were doing back then, so you know the technique back then, it's little complicated, you were shorting the stock, buying the credit

default stock insurance policy on the bond. liz: hoping it fails. >> if the credit swap went up people would sell the stock, that is more indication people are buying protection. this is essentially different, shorting the stock. liz: shorting is legal though rumormongering is not. >> but that is on the on the long side and the short side, okay? but again, i hear the staff is against it because it didn't work out too well in 2008. liz: let's say you believe that the banks are going down or at least some of them and you are dying to short one or bunch of them, you will still be able to if there is a ban, at least temporary on short selling against the banks. there is a potential short selling ban but there is work around here, that may be through exchange traded funds. bring in mr. etf himself, todd rosen bluth.

how many do you watch every day? >> 2,000 etfs. some are in the news more than others. we've been talking about financial institution etfs. we've seen really strong engagement at vetify in recent weeks. liz: talk about the people out there who may believe banks are going down, some of them, would like to short them, there will still be a way through etfs. how and let's talk about it? >> so you have etfs tied to the financial sector, particularly original banks. so the spdr s&p regional bank etf. kre, very liquid etf, well-diversified, equally weighted exposure to number of different banks, you can short that etf, you can buy individual stocks as part of protection, but can short the etf, kre, or a sibling within the industry group, i-shares regional banking

etf, iat, and get negative exposure as charlie was talking about, hoping that the stocks go down in value. you can do so with the same way that you could do individual stocks with some options. you can do so with protection. but you get the benefits of diversification. instead of picking one or two stocks either you're in favor of long, or against on the short you're doing more of an industry call there will be continued pressure within the regional banking space. liz: say you're all in on shorting these names, there is the financial bear 3 x. faz. let's put that up. this is one where you absolutely believe the banks are going down you can pile your money into this thing. hopefully it's longer term chart we have of faz, they are doing very well, counterbalancing the

worry we've seen over the last eight weeks, right? >> yes. inverse and leveraged inverse etfs are a more aggressive way of taking a negative call. there is of course elevated risks that are related and longer that you hold on to an inverse leveraged etf, the greater the pain can reverse itself and can get hurt. we recommend investors use those products on very tactical basis for a short time horizon, look at more diversified products. you get exposure to original banks in broadly diversified etfs, financial select, sector spdr etf, slf. people are playing positive side believing there will be recovery in financials, not just the negative side too. liz: if you look at six month, hopefully we can get a three month, i don't know if that is possible, i'm trying to make a point because that is the best visual. here it is. you start to see this really gain up 40% over the past three months. what is the difference in fees

though between, i want to just ask this, some are actively managed, some are of course pass stiffly managed etfs, really quick? >> real quick you have low cost etfs like spdr s&p 500 etf. nine basis points. we're talking about the capital group dividend value etf recently with our clients. expense ratio is 33 basis points for this actively managed long etf that focuses on companies that pay dividend that are attractively valued. you're getting low cost etfs within the active space, not just the index space world. liz: thank you, todd. [chosing bell rings] teaching us how to go long and short with certain sectors. yes it can be done even if individual short something banned. that will do it for us. markets closed mixed ahead of tomorrow's debt ceiling meeting larry: hello folks, welcome to