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♪. neil: that is what we're doing in this country, waiting to find out whether we will go belly-up. that probably isn't going to happen. nevertheless welcome, everybody, i'm neil cavuto. hope you had a great weekend. they didn't make any progress on this whole debt nightmare or come to agreement. bottom line we're nowhere near one. they're remeeting tomorrow. we'll get into that a little bit. what could come. they don't have a lot of days to meet before june 1 we're told we're run out of dough, out of options. i want to go to my friend admired for many years, bob doll, crossmark chief investment officer. bob, so much attention on the debt ceiling back and forth. the general rule from people, we'll get close, we'll get through this i always wonder, bob, what happened if we don't?

>> it will not be a pretty scene, neil, you know that obviously they have at their disposal the ability to kick the ball down the field to a later date and that is likely what is going to happen. neil: you think? just for now the middle ground they can't come together on anything, but maybe punt it to september or something? >> they just run out of time so think need to punt it. the good news out of last week they agreed to meet again. they told the staffers start talking with one another. i agree with you we're a long way off but those two things are a good sign. neil: i don't want to keep emphasizing the negative, bob, i would be curious because so many people think that avoiding a default saves the day but we do remember, i think i might been talking to you back then in 2011 where we did that. yet still had our credit downgraded from aaa to no longer the highest, most pristine credit rating on the planet. what do you think? >> yeah. we can't keep rolling the dice,

waiting until the 11th, 12th, 13th hour. we have to tackle longer term issues. i know it is the political third rail but entitlements are increasing percentage of budget, increasing am of percentage increase. somebody some day we'll have to address testimony or we'll keep having conversations like this, all too often, neil. neil: we're almost double from this time. leaving that aside, the gaps between the potential government shutdowns are getting shorter and shorter. how do you think things go if, for example, our credit is dinged again? >> we just would have fewer degrees of freedom. the fact that we have a high rating on our debt, the fact we are the reserve currency of the world, these are two blessings americans take for granted. at some point you have to work to keep those two things.

it is worth fighting the fight. the problem is not just the debt now, neil, interest rates are up. interest expense will start causing lots of consternation, getting a lot of attention. neil: is america unique on this debt stuff? even as a percentage of gdp, percentage of number of people in the country we know what is going to the government but whether i look at all the debt accumulated by average citizens in this country, right now we're running at a 70 trillion rate that is not sustainable. >> no, it isn't. it is growing faster than most other things. there are other countries that have debt problems. that only complicates things. if you have debtor nations, creditor nations you can kind of do some exchanging there but far too many parts of our economy, too many other economies are populated with a lot of debt, neil. neil: let me get your thoughts on the markets. what will move them here.

bob, you're right, a lot of people are saying what you outlined, they will probably come to an agreement right now, let's push this back a little bit, iron out differences to avoid any calamity later on. hopefully they're right, regardless what happens. i wonder how the markets take this in. now they're not so sure, federal reserve will skip future rate hikes this year. some are calling for a surprise one in june. what about you? >> i think they will go on hold. you know they have raised rates, don't have to tell you from zero to 5% in a little more than a year. that's gargantuan, neil. the impact of all of that we've seen it with some bank failures, but i suspect the impact is not over. we'll see it perhaps with more financial problems but also a noticeable slowing/mild recession in our economy. neil: hope you're wrong on the latter. we'll watch closely, robert. >> me too. neil: good seeing you bob doll, crossmark chief investment

officer there. our chief white house watcher joins us now, edward lawrence. we do know the meeting tomorrow. the president i believe leaves for japan on wednesday. so there is not a lot of time where all these guys can be together at the same time to iron this out. what are you hearing, edward? >> reporter: although the white house pushes back on that the president can be president anywhere is what they like to say. you know, neil, in washington when something is afoot you know in d.c. you don't hear a lot of leaks coming out of what is happening. the president two hours ago on his way to philadelphia was asked for an update on the progress of the debt ceiling talks. listen. >> president biden, any update on the budget negotiations? president biden: no. >> reporter: over the weekend more talkative though saying he still plans to meet tuesdays with congressional leadership before he leaves for the g7. president biden: what i learned a long time ago, you know as well as i do, never good to characterize a negotiation in the middle of an negotiation.

i remain optimistic because i'm a congenital optimist. i think there is desire on their part as well as ours to reach an agreement. i think we'll be able to do it. >> reporter: the president last week signaled support for clawing back covid funding. there is support for limit growth of spending and permitting reform. i have a source saying there is no hard agreements on any of the topics internal polling for both parties big support from americans clawing back unused covid funds. money for the irs and using money for loan forgiveness for the federal debt. >> we can't keep spending money. even though the republicans cut, trillions of dollars we still have added $1.5 trillion to the debt. democrats and republicans have got to get real about this thing. we're spiraling out of control.

>> reporter: that debt ceiling x date could be june 1st, as early as june 1st. that is about two weeks away. treasury department came out on friday saying they had $88 billion in extraordinary measures they could still use. neil. neil: 88 billion. that won't get you lunch in washington these days. all right, edward. >> reporter: with inflation, you're right. neil: edward lawrence on all of that. kevin hassett, former council of economic advisors chairman under president bush, author of the drift. i always look forward to our moments. i want to look at what your former boss had to say in a interview on cnn he characterized the republican fight to rein spending cuts tied to the debt ceiling, if means, default, default. what did you make of that? >> i think that as a negotiator you've got to be willing to say look i'm really serious about this. of course nobody wants default. the fact though is that i felt a

little bit this morning like bill murray in "caddyshack." i had my ear to the ground trying to find the gophers. i think i have pretty good intel they have been making a lot of progstress at staff level. also one of those things bob mentioned a minute ago, in washington you hear what is going on, all of sudden when it is silent it means they're getting pretty close. i heard they have very productive staff meetings. down to the level of picking like senior staff to present to the principles a deal they think ought to be attractive for everybody. there is chance that a deal could happen relatively quickly. if it does, i think that is good news, provided they make progress on spending cuts. this will be the first year where interest payments on the debt are bigger than defense spending in the u.s. so we've really got to start to get ahead of the curve on that and if we don't we'll be headed to default down the road. neil: you think what trump was

saying, kevin, either way to force republicans hands to push them to make a deal, that he wasn't advocating default? >> yeah, that's right. there has been a deal around the debt limit increase a million times. neil: yeah. >> sort of how washington works. something that has to happen. because it has happen, eventually there is a bill and there is always policy with it in addition to the debt. neil: the bigger the numbers get it doesn't take long before you're at another case of brinksmanship here. there has to be a better way to do this? >> yeah, for sure, you had mentioned earlier looking around the world there are a lot of countries that have you know, statutory constitutional limits how much debt can be relative to gdp or how much spending can be relative to gdp. there is good academic literature, even though the rules can be overridden by simple majority in parliament or congress, it can have a big

effect on those countries. here in the u.s. we need some sort of a budget commission. i see down in the corner mitch daniels is coming up soon. i would pick him to run it for goodness sakes. the blade sure knows how to cut spending. u.s. is on a path that is unsustainable. the easiest way to get to sustainable path copy most every other country. most european countries have some kind of caps. neil: ourselves and denmark have only a system like this. that is neither here nor there but let me get your take on what would happen if we were downgraded? let's say we avoid the worst case of default but we did that back in 2011 and we were still downgraded by s&p. i'm just wondering, because there are rumors of something like that afoot. what do you think would be the fallout? >> right. you know when i was in the white house one of the jobs of the cea is to meet with the guys who do the bond rating for the u.s. and one of the gamesmanship

plays that i made back then i took one of my most junior guys, had that person represent the cea with the bond raiders, i wanted to signal i'm not concerned at all. if i show up with 100 page power point i'm nervous, maybe they get nervous. if i were the cea chair i would show up to the meeting. the reason is not just the debt limit increase because interest rates have gone up so much and debt continues to rise so the interest payments on our debt as share of gdp are frankly unsustainable. if you consider that the u.s. is debt-to-gdp 40% higher than argentina you should be concerned about a downgrade. it is a legitimate concern. i think the good news looks like the democrats and republicans are pretty serious about this deal. the deal will include some progress on spending f that happens, then maybe that will give us, buy us some time with the bond raiders. but honest to goodness, if we don't do anything, if we lift the debt limit i could see that leading to a downgrade.

interest payments are bigger than a defense payments. it is enormous halling to fix a policy problem like that. neil: great to see you, my friend, kevin has it, former economic advisor to president trump. meantime we'll look at enormous possibilities what if, what if we default push this past the brink where do you put your money? a lot of people say bitcoin, crypto. they're sort of safe haven plays in event like that. we'll ask blocks pierce about that after this -- brock pierce. ♪.

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♪. neil: all right. always thinking of the unthinkable. do we see bitcoin do well if we actually push ourselves to the brink? forget about even defaulting. if we go way past deadlines, get really close. a lot of people say it is among assets that could benefit in such an environment. brock pierce joins us, bitcoin foundation, 2020 presidential political candidate. i had political questions i wanted to ask brock. on the crisis mentality around

it, that it will benefit looks like a deal is either stumbling, worse yet, not to be had? >> well i mean it certainly could. certainly in times of financial uncertainty when these questions are being asked we're looking for a flight to safety. what are the asset classes to invest in? crypto is clearly one of those. bitcoin is definitely one of those areas where many people might be hooking to move some of their assets. it could benefit greatly from it. much in the same way we see a lift in gold. gold is up 10% year-to-date. bitcoin is up 65%. clearly could be one of those beneficiaries as we start to call it our trust is eroding not just in banks like we've been seeing imploding, potentially more. what is the next thing we start to lose confidence in as trust erodes and clearly, what happens here with the debt ceiling you know, our fiscal responsibility and policy is something that everybody is going to be paying close attention to, rightly should. basic lesson for all of us in

layman's terms you can't consistently sent more than you make. you can't continue to borrow in the future without consequence. neil: individuals are doing this to say nothing about politicians. it is a universal problem across america and the world. i wanted to get your thoughts on what donald trump mentioned last week in the cnn interview that i raised with kevin has it, that is, if necessary default then. if you don't get spending cuts out of the president of the united states go ahead and default, what did you think? >> well there is an argument to be made that you know, forced fiscal responsibility. i mean it would be a, it would send a shock wave through world markets and, but america, if you can't beat them lead them i think is a decent argument. how do you make progress? sometimes you have to go through a painful process to do it. i'm not advocating for that argument. you know, all ideas should be on the table, right?

we should evaluate all options. hopefully make the right decision. that is a, an idea that should be taken into consideration. i'm clearly not advocating for it but, one of the things to discuss. neil: you don't come back from a default though, do you? >> no. i mean it's, you have to really think through if you went through that process what follows it but this is something that you know, if you take a big step back, this is not just a problem in america this is a problem globally. look at what is happening in argentina and, at some point we're going to have to go through the painful process of, perhaps, taking new fiscal policy globally. you know i worked on, i have for five years i worked on projects. i can't really get into the details but a what if? what would we do, what is the alternative? you know the fed is talking about a digital dollar. the world is talking about cbdcs which technology amoral.

it is not good or bad. neil: what is cbdcs? >> central bank digital currencies. bigger volumes than mastercard and visa, what would we do in that scenario? banks around the world, governments around the world are looking at issuing digital currency using technology that makes bitcoin possible. china created the chinese digital yuan which is version of that takes away our liberty, takes away our privacy. the u.s. if it does do this, which is very real and happening now i hope it is aligned with our values and principles as a nation. like nuclear technology, it can be used to make low cost energy or drop very serious bombs that create great destruction. if we contemplate these big ideas i pray we do it in a way which is alignment in values and principles we hold dear. neil: the latter part you wish

remains the case. great talking to you. brock pierce. i want to go to grady trimble meanwhile on capitol hill where they're taking up the issue of artificial intelligence, that hearing will get worldwide scrutiny come tomorrow, right? >> reporter: it will, neil. the lawmakers are saying this hearing is the first step regulating artificial intelligence. this has one high-profile witness, sam altman, the company behind open a.i. here is what he told fox business on on the subject. >> i think we can manage this for sure. i think we need to take it seriously. now is a good time to do this. it is definitely a challenge but i'm sure one we can handle. >> reporter: one of the other witnesses who will appear before the senate judiciary subcommittee tomorrow, someone who has been vocal about the

need to regulate a.i. and quickly. nyu professor, gary marcus signed the letter calling for a six-month pause on some a.i. development. here is what he told you, neil, why congress needs to act fast. >> there has to be enforcement, saying you need to be transparent enough about this so we can actually do something about it. so the traditional let's have a study about it, talk about it in a year is not going to cut it. >> reporter: we have repeatedly asked lawmakers here on the hill what con treat proposals they have in terms of a.i. regulation and it has been very hard to get specific answers, neil. so we'll be looking at their questioning tomorrow to see if we get any sense what type of regulations they might propose and how strictly they want to come down on oversight of artificial intelligence. something to keep an eye on, neil. neil: and we shall. as always, grady trimble in washington ton. meantime ron desantis had the stage for a moment all to

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♪. >> the hope is both florida and iowa show strong leadership and a bold agenda can defeat the left in this country but there is no substitute for victory. woe must reject the culture of losing that has infected our party in recent years. the tile for excuses is over. neil: you know after he said that i immediately thought is donald trump going to ignore this? i haven't seen a spoons from him yet. ron desantis in iowa over the weekend. the former president couldn't make it there because of stormy

weather in the area all they expected to go there soon. john tatum, sports ceo, early backer of donald trump. i don't know where he stands now. john, always good to have you. how are you betting on backing on this go-round? >> neil, great to be with you. just to clarify i'm not early backing on everybody. i supported donald trump -- neil: but you -- >> i've been involved in the past. and certainly want to get involved in the future because, i think we've got problems in washington with the current leadership. neil: are you leaning to anybody, john? >> or lack thereof. i think everybody sees it as a two horse race. you have got a lot of blue-collar supporters are, and small dollar donors are backing president trump.

you know, he is the face for a lot of the working men and women of this country and, he has got a strong 25, 30% group that is supporting him. the higher donor group is really backing, you know, either governor desantis or they're holding back. i mean the latest numbers, president trump has a little under 100 million across five of his committee pacs and then governor desantis, you know, in never back down, his super-pac has over $100 million. neil: right. >> you know, ken griffin, very well-known, you know, donor has donated five million dollars to governor desantis. so i think a lot of the, i guess the higher donors are kind of, they haven't necessarily come to president trump right now. they're waiting to see if

governor desantis gets in, potentially others that may get in so. neil: what is influencing donors right now? a lot of money has been put on the table pretty early in the race. i don't know if this is especially early. but it does seem compared to 2016 when lot of odds seemed to favor then former republican governor of florida jeb bush. i'm wondering what you make of it now? >> well, i think it is concern, neil. you know, they're really seems to be a feeling there is lack of leadership in washington right now. you know, we're going into all of these debt ceiling crisis and other crises and there is not a ceo in the executive branch, at least one that is actively leading. when you have people obviously like president trump has been president. you have people like governor desantis, you have others that you know, i think tim scott is a, is a great leader.

but you know, we're a long ways from, you know, next, the first primaries and from the election next november. so there may be others that get in the race. the only person i can tell you for sure that is not getting in the race is ted cruz. he was at my office on friday. he had just come back from the border down in brownsville. he said he is 100% looking to get reelected to be a texas senator and has not going to get into the race this year. but you know, the border crisis, i mean, crime, some of my most -- neil: there are a lot of issues there. john, i wish i had more time. i always enjoy hearing from you. let me know when you make up your mind where you might be leaning in this race. john tatum, genesco sports ceo. we'll talk to mitch daniels, former indian, governor, pursue university, on to bigger things.

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we stop breaches. we stop a lot of bad things from happening. crowdstrike. protection that powers you. ♪. neil: all right. it's still early but as you can see we've been going into looking where the donors are going in the republican party in particular the choice seems to be for time being, always dangerous to say that of the former president donald trump and ron desantis getting a lot of attention over the weekend in iowa. seems to intimate if you want to keep losing elections, vote for the other guy. didn't pout out so many words, that the former president had to say about that. he had colorful adjectives to describe him. i bring in a gentleman with all these things, never get down in the dirt. we'll try our best. i'm joking. mitch daniels, former two term governor of indiana, president of purdue university. what he did there was the kind

of biblical proportions. kind enough to join us. governor, first on this battle a lot of people said this weighed in deciding whether or not to succeed senator braun who is retiring, that there were many trump acolytes who didn't want you to run because they claimed you were a rino, republican in name only. explained that had nothing to do with it. maybe this was not for but what do you think of this battle between trump loyalists and pretty much everyone else? >> i think that competition a good thing, whether in the economy or in our, our political system and so, i think that we should all hope for a lot of entrants and a lot of competing views that people can choose between but other than that i will let the combatants have it out. as to the senate, i meant what i said, neil.

it is just not the job for me. people i admired asked me have a hard look at it, i did for a very short time. i've always been lucky enough, i think of as action jobs, executive positions in business, in elected office and at the university and that is sort of work i enjoy, i think i'm best at. neil: you were criticized by these groups that didn't want you to run, who claimed you were a rino. yet the definition of a rhino, republican in name only, doesn't jibe with career as governor. you holding tuition frozen more than a decade at purdue. certainly back in your days crunching numbers, running budget issues for president george w. bush. i'm just wondering how did that make you feel? >> amused i guess. i made up my own acronym, neil, rimo, republicans in mouth only. people who never cut a tax,

never shortened a government payroll, never deregulated anything, never reformed education or health care. you know, but somehow feel entitled to, to dictate to others what the republican party is all about. now, i guess we could say these are folks with short memories but, never let it trouble me. again i found it more amusing than anything else. neil: it wasn't like back in the early days with governor, or working with president bush. i wonder, are you worried, i talk to some who worry donald trump heading up the ticket would go down to defeat? popular he might be in the party he would lose a general election. there are some polls quibble with that notion certainly and it its way too early as you often remind me but are you worried? >> i'm just worried about the future of the country and i hope that will be every voter's first

concern. everyone can make up his or her own mind about the best way forward but i do believe we have spent ourselves into a terrible corner. that we have headed in dangerous directions with regard to control of our borders, confronting the threat of a would-be hedgemon in china, other issues we could name. i do believe a change of direction is in order but as to who first can best articulate that, but more important bring a larger consensus of americans together around a new program, as opposed to simply try to eke out another 50% plus one win that doesn't, doesn't offer the opportunity to govern effectively. i always wish, wish that our national candidates would

campaign to govern and not simply to win an election. neil: the latter might be difficult if you're espousing things as president trump seemed to last week, governor. maybe it was for the purpose of putting pressure on democrats that he would be okay with default. that if republicans don't get spending concessions out of this administration go ahead and default? >> i don't know too many people who really believe default on obligations of this country is an acceptable outcome. the republicans in the house, as well as the president and his allies, that is one thing they plainly agree on. let's, i'm encouraged by what we hear in the last few days, both sides say that negotiations are proceeding. i would hope that president means it. negotiations don't mean, we talk for a while then you do exactly what i say. they mean that both sides find some way to come together and

compromise. that is exactly what's happened in these debt ceiling standoffs historically. the president himself was involved in some of them. stuart: neil: right. >> i hope that he will do so again. neil: yeah, you're quite right. this president was involved back when george w. bush was president there were three times then senator biden fought debt ceiling increases. you know i understand how things can change when you're in the office and things change but i'm just wondering, there is a growing thought, governor, we could have the debt downgraded whether there is a deal or not just like we had in 2011. do you worry about that? >> we should. i led a state that had higher, credit rating than the federal government as of 2012. it had already been put on a watch list or caution against its original gilt-edged credit rating so yes, that has happened before so it is possible but it

ought not to be deemed acceptable. you know, this, this debt ceiling faceoff that we're seeing now this is just spring training, neil. the kind of spending restraint that is being suggested is so tiny compared to what we'll ultimately have to do in order to avoid not just a fiscal default and collapse, economic consequences that would flow from that but a terrible sense of social betrayal in the country if, if tens of millions of people suddenly discover that the promises federal government made are not capable of being honored. we have got to get busy on this now. we owe it to the people who rely on, planning to rely on those programs. neil: mitch daniels, i wish we had more time. always pleasure having you, former purdue university president, former governor, now with the liberty fund.

he speaks like an adult. don't hear that very, very often in this country. corner of wall and broad up a little more than two points right now. there is a lot of tenterhooks waiting around what happened with these debt talks. brian brenberg takes you to that. what they're looking at in 15 minutes. brian: hey, neil. good to see you. california's progressive wish-list putting housing equality front and center. we'll talk to kevin o'leary, about the biden administration's attack on farmers. we'll see you at the top of the hour. first more coast to coast after this. ♪. sam who make...? ...everyday products... ...designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder - that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases!

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guys on the front line should know, jonathan lion's, yuma county supervisor. very good to have you. how do you see this all sorting out in the days and weeks ahead? can you hear us, jonathan? okay. bottom line, is they're not really, thinking that this holds permanently. the fact of the matter did, we did have 83, 84,000 who got through the border last week. once title 42 went away. with more forces, more security and all the rest, the numbers, those that were expected to hop over, that really did not happen. they have steadily declined with each and every passing day. they hope that continues. but for now it has been a surprise on the upside. bad, but not nearly as bad as some thought. in fact much better than some thought. after this.

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the day following the expiration of title 42, it was almost negligible as far as the crossings, and then since then, the numbers have been consistent between five and 600. a lot of people think that's an improvement but i would remind everybody that, you know, two years ago we averaged 20 or 30 a month, so our numbers still are high and we still have people lining up to cross every morning. neil: no, i had no doubt about that. let me ask you what changed? what happened with title 42 going and then the new format going in place that we were able to get at least more under control. you seem to have your doubts whether it would last. >> you know, i'm not quite sure that one-day would mean that it's lasting or its had a real impact on our community. we had hopes that everything that to mayorkas and biden had implemented using the app or

the fact that they could be expelled and face charges for up to five years, that that would have an impact, but we're seeing new groups come across. africa has been an interesting place for people to come from. from synogal, ghana this morning , as well as some additional countries that just haven't been typical, so i don't know if they are just arriving late or if they are just going to continue coming like that from those countries. neil: yeah, certainly to your point a lot more countries than we've ever seen before. we'll keep an eye on it jonathan lines, yuma county supervisor. keeping you up-to-date on some very different numbers for what one taylor swift breaking all sorts of records, and enriching herself in the process to the tune of up to 1.5 billion bucks in revenue. lauren simonetti has more on all that. lauren what's going on here? lauren: neil it's not just the tickets, we call them swifties feeling some bad love

it's the price of everything. $10 for a bottle of water, $15 for the french fries, and 20 bucks for a beer. even on the econolodge, near gillette stadium for her tour outside boston this coming weekend that costs $450, and if you want to park your car, the free lots they fill pretty fast, so options to pre-pay for a spot, a mile away, they're selling on seat geek starting at $113. i mean, you've got the makeup, the outfits, the merchandise, everything the teen girls want. the official taylor swift concert t-shirts are $45 and the hoodies will set you back $75. neil, these are kids going and their parents paying. at the philadelphia concerts this past weekend, lines to buy the gear were an hour long, even though most of it was available on the website and then outside the stadium, like if you couldn't get a ticket you had thousands of people gathering and just standing there and

singing along to the songs. so fans are spending a lot of money but yes, taylor swift is sticking up for her audience. she called out a security guard saturday night who was allegedly being overly aggressive with a swiftie. ♪ >> he wasn't doing anything. hey! stop! lauren: hey, stop! they gave her some free tickets for another night so all-in the 20-city, 52-night tour could bring in as much as $1.6 billion , and if you want to catch the show this weekend at gillette stadium near boston, tickets are going for over $ 2,000 for an obstructed view, neil, so this is like swift-onom ics, an entire economy based on taylor swift. it's not just the ticket prices it's everything else, oh, and the traffic. neil: all i know is adele,

signed an agreement $2 million a day for her vegas show so swiftie or whatever, can cling to that, but what do you think? lauren: i think that they should team up and do a concert together. one does the opening act one night, the main event the next night and they just switch it off. neil: when taylor swift would seem interrupted to talk to the security guard the song was still going on. was that the chorus singing or what was that all about? lauren: i asked myself the same question. neil: exactly. because adele doesn't do that. lauren: neil i'm trying to keep this very positive. neil: i know. i'm trying to be childish and just cause controversy when there really is none. lauren: consider yourself lucky. all of your kids are over the age of potentially wanting to go, so you're saving some money. neil: all right thank you. lauren: do you know there's a guest greeter at fox. neil: we're out of time lauren and they are already yelling at me as we try to shake off th