investment grade debt. we're really trying to take opportunities in credit and get to opportunities in global equities. we think global equities still beat bonds in this environment as we've got this higher for longer regime. liz: great to see you. thank you, rob. >> great to see you. thank you. liz: here we go with, folks. what happened? the market gains vaporizing in the final moments of trade. the dow had been up 460 points during in this session, now up just 14. looks like the s&p is negative by 4 points. nasdaq down 20 the after having been in the green. so tomorrow the final inflation reading of the year, pce for november. that could move markets, for sure. i'll see you tomorrow. ♪ larry: hello, folks. welcome to "kudlow," i'm larry kudlow. so kill the bill and cut taxes instead. and while you're at it, kill the

debt ceiling, and let's launch the new blue collar boom. we've got senators cynthia lummis and kevin kramer on all that and more in just a moment. but first, hillary vaughn live on capitol hill where autoall the fun is happening. hello, hillary. [laughter] >> reporter: hi, larry. well, consider the bill killed, because fox news digital is confirming the details of this new deal that was brokered just moments ago. house appropriations chairman tom cole leaving speaker johnson's office saying they have a deal. here is what it would entail, a clean 3-month continuing resolution to keep the government funded and open, a clean farm bill package, also disaster aid as negotiated with democrats. that's $110 billion. clean health extenders, also a 2-year suspension if of the debt limit the january 2027. there also would be no e-15, no year-round ethanol if gas sales.

but in the leadup to all of this, congressional democrats had been very mad that elon musk exposed all the unnecessary and unpaid-for extras that were stuffed in this government funding bill, and it seems that under musk's leadership at doge the era of smuggling all these extra perks into must-pass legislation may be over. >> mike johnson negotiated a deal with leader jeff reese -- jeffreys and chuck schumer and joe biden. and now he's reneging on the deal because the shadow president, elon musk, said that we shouldn't be doing deal. it will be their fault that americans don't get disaster leaf, that americans don't get their social security checks. that is on the republicans. >> reporter: but democrats have a chance to prove that they really are worried about people getting disaster aid and if social security checks. we'll see if they vote for this deal to keep the government open without any of the extra thats

attached to it. republicans say they have legitimate concerns for ditching the original deal saying disaster aid for hurricane victim is the a trojan horse. republicans say it wasn't elon musk that blew up the deal, it was, constituents back home that were blowing up their phones. >> our phones were ringing off the hook. our constituents were telling us, members of congress, hey, this c.r., bloated c.r. with all this extraneous spending that's not paid for, it's in the what we voted for. it's the democrats' fall. they were demanding all of these the extraneous, unpaid-for provisions, so i don't buy it. the reality is we're not going to shut down. >> reporter, and larry, there is an interesting dynamic here that will emerge around the debt ceiling, extending it to two years from now in january 2027. there's a lot of republicans

that are going to have some heart burn about getting behind that. but surprisely, some democrats have rallied -- surprise surprisingly, some democrats -- senator elizabeth warren tweeting out she supports getting rid of the debt ceiling entirely. larry? larry: well, now, that's interesting. i happen to agree with president trump, and on this one matter i probably agree with the distinguished senator from massachusetts. hey, hillary, can i ask you a question? you're a reporter. democrats, social security payments were never at risk. finish never. if -- never. if you have a government shutdown, that has nothing to do. those payments go out. if you violate the debt limit, the social security payments and medicare payments go out, particularly social security. i don't know where they got that from. this is just democratic pap, trying to close -- scare people into giving them all these trillions of dollars. that's one point. my second point, how much does

this bill cost, and how much did the burned-up bill cost? the original bill? two bills, one's dead, now we have the new bill, all right, with a 2-year debt ceiling -- we'll talk about that in a minute with our guest. how much does this cost, does anybody know? because, as you pointed out, there's no a pay-go. the pay-go is being waived, and that's not good. >> reporter: yeah, larry, i don't have the exact number yet on how much new deal is going to cost compared to the old deal, but it's certainly going to presumably cost less because there's a lot of the exfroms that were in the -- extras that were in the fist bill that are not going to be included in this new deal. but we don't have the full scope of the overall cost yet. i'll let you know when we get it. larry: hillary vaughn up there on capitol hill having more pun than any of us down here -- fun than any of us down here. take care. all right, folks, good riddance to the debt ceiling. that's' the subject of the riff. so president-elect trump is

totally right, in my view, get rid of the debt ceiling. good riddance. get rid of it altogether. nobody pays any mind to it, it's never enforced. all it does is open the door to mischef vows democratic attempts to threaten government shutdowns if the republicans don't cave in to all the billions of dollars in the pork programs. and then, of course, they blame the gop for the shutdown. and mr. trump is also right that he doesn't want the take office with the debt limit hanging over his new administration and if preventing his tax cut and border-closing initiatives. in fact, keeping the toothless debt limit will interfere with the entire policy agenda of the new president if he allows it to. of course, that's why democrats suddenly love the debt ceiling. it has no meaning, but it throws a wet blanket over the fantastic trump honeymoon that he's enjoying. democratic leadership would love nothing more than to hold

mr. trump's entire agenda hostage even though the voters have just given trump the an enormous mandate to change policies. end bidenomics and move toward a new trumpian era of peace and prosperity. and you ever take a look at the howling about the debt ceiling, it all comes from liberal media, liberal politicians who never if advocate -- never if advocate for any spending restraint. isn't that interesting? and, in fact, in the current silly season debate over short-term government funding and the phony debt limit, even the mild pay-go requirement that was built into the last debt deal back in 2023 between then-speaker mccarthy and president biden, even that the has been thrown out the one doe. and there are -- the window. and there were no spending offsets to all the crazy spending increases embodied in

the, fortunately, now-defunct if c.r. that went up in flames last night. what kind of spending increases? well, the $100 billion disaster leaf, which might be useful -- relief, but it's ten time it is more up necessary. $31 billion in farm relief. way too much, i'm sorry. massive new earthal spending -- ethanol spending, way too much. the usual welfare increases for food stamps and childcare with no work requirement, as always. another pro football boondoggle bailout for the stadium in d.c. a pay raise for congress that might be justifiable, but it's a the wrong moment for it. and then probably stuff that nobody knows what it costs, 70 pages of something called pandemic preparedness. that c.r. would have buried all the j6 committee records kind of like a preemptive pardon for liz cheney. the only good news is that president trump killed this continuing resolution.

hopefully, he can kill the debt him are also. and it's -- debt limit also. and it's also worth noting that mr. trump's getting a lot of help from elon musk in all these endeavors. and if in only a short period of time, elon has become a major political force, and it is a force for good. and he's being helped by his doge brother, vivek ramaswamy, who put a sharp pencil to that prof if ligate 150-page -- 1500 page c.r.. now, i'd like to see elon team up with president trump and kill the debt ceiling altogether. and if then mr. trump and his whole team can embark on the new golden age peace and prosperity pressing on with their agenda to cut taxes, dismantle the regulatory state, seal the border, drill, baby, drill. let's fatten wallets of blue collar working folks rather tan government politicians and bureaucrats. and that is the riff.

all right. let's chew on it. joining us now we welcome wyoming senator cynthia lummis and north dakota senator kevin kramer. to both of you, thanks very much for doing this. senator lummis, maybe too soon. have you seen or heard about the new so-called clean continuing resolution? >> we just heard about it from your reporter while we were listening and waiting. so that's our first exposure to it. it actually sounds pretty good, to me p. larry: yeah. so i'll ask you a follow-up just quickly. it's been -- hillary vaughn's a great reporter, by the way, so i'm sure she's got the scoop before everybody. but here's the thing, why do you all want to suspend or end pay-go? if in other words, you're spending on one side, nobody knows how much, by the way. nobody knows what the first bill cost, nobody knows what this bill costs which i think the itself is a great disservice to taxpayers. but pay-go, remember that?

in -- if we're going to increase on one side, we're going to cut it out of the other, because the idea was, senator lummis -- and i'm going to get to senator cramer in a minute -- the idea was we spend too much money, differently, joe biden spent too much money creating inflation. i'm going to to get to the federal reserve system in the if next segment with charles. but the point is, what happened to pay-go? why don't we have offsets anymore? >> democrats use pay-go to spend more and raise taxes. republicans use pay-go to spend more and borrow more. [laughter] but neither if party uses it to cut spending. larry: right. >> and so that's why with it doesn't work. and if that's why i am so pleased that elon musk and vivek ramaswamy and are taking this doge effort to really dig into the inefficiencies and the poor

spending and consolidating government agencies and ferreting out waste. they're our last hope because the congress doesn't have it in them to do it. [laughter] well, apparently not. -- larry: well, apparently not. senator cramer, this new c.r., this clean bill, as it's called, which i think the word clean is a very poor add adjective -- [laughter] but whatever you're going to call it, you know, i'm not hearing spending offsets. i'm tired of biden, i'm tired of bidenomics, i'm tired of biden-flation and spending. and if you're going to have some priorities, it should be offset. it's a lost art. of but, after all, that's part of the problem, you know? the fact that we have a new republican administration and congress does not necessarily mean we have to use it to imitate what democrats have done. that's one point. the second point is, senator cramer, i want to get rid of the debt limit altogether, the debt ceiling. it's a stupid thing. it tice up -- you always get

into these government politics, you know this, you've been around for a long time. senator lummis, you know this, you've been around for a while. it's ignored. all it does is, you know, it's blackmail in order to spend more money. social security has nothing to do with governor shutdowns, etc., etc. get rid of it, senator cramer, just get rid of it! >> well, i have some sympathy for that position, for sure. the one thing i would say though over my years, and cynthia and i have done this for quite a while, there are times when you come up on the debt ceiling which is the moment that you can actually have a serious discussion at what are the causers of the debt, what kind of process changes or institutional changes can we make and use the debt ceiling as leverage. the problem is when that happens, much like grant-rudman or -- graham-rudman, you get a year or two of savings and then you suddenly blow the whole thing up and you're back to overspending again. so i'm kind of where you on

that, although if we were going to eliminate the debt ceiling a altogether, i'd like to get something bigger for it, something like prevent government shutdown act, some sort of, again, institutional guardrail that's permanent that actually gets after the issue of spending in the first place. with regard to the pay-go issue, larry, one thing to remember, this continuing resolution really -- and you're right, it's not clean, because you can't say it's clean plus -- larry: right. >> that's not clean. however, remember, this is for the if next couple of months of spending and you put it in the context of an entire fiscal year. so if there is going to be a pay-for, it'd be in the second half of the year which brings up the fact that come january if -- january 3rd when republicans have a majority in the senate and january 20th when we with actually have a president we get together on budget reconciliation, look for, first, the low hanging fruit, look for the opportunities to cut spending, look for

opportunities, more importantly, in the second part of the year when we get to take up that tax policy and yen rate more revenue to pro-growth policies that grow the economy and help grow us closer to balance. larry: senator lummis p how about the first part of the year? you know, senator cramer's giving me this line about man january. that's. [laughter] it's always tomorrow, it's always the next quarter. the debt ceiling is for two years. you know what's going to happen, none of this matters. you know, i'm in a 12-step program that often argues the problem is self. you can't have governance -- the problem is in yoits, and -- yourself, and you have to change yours. you all need a higher power down there for spending and other things, no question about that. the but the reality is put the tax cuts first. that's my other point. i want to start the blue collar boom in the second half of this year, not next year or the year after. put the tax cuts first, put together real reconciliation bill that the includes border security and tax out -- cuts.

that that's what i want. and if the doge brothers can get together with russ vought at omb and the members of are mr. trump's team, let's start cutting spending right now. i don't need debt ceiling, pay-go, you just have to do it, just do it! shock the nation and do it. >> yeah. larry, from your mouth to god's ear. we absolutely can do that, and the plan is to put the border security and some defense components of reconciliation now first and then follow it up wit- larry: no, no, no, no, no, no, no. all at once, ma'am. all at once. as sources close to president trump are telling us, he would like one big, beautiful bill. [laughter] >> i don't think it gets done any sooner though, larry.

that's the point. if you're going to do one big one if the end date is september of next year or you're going to do an easy one early and then t- larry: 100 days, senator cramer. >> yeah, well -- larry: 100 days, maybe 120 days. i'm willing the wait three or four months if it all a gets done. if you tell me you're going to do border first and tax cuts second, then that tells me if you're lucky, you'll get tax cuts at the end of the year, you might not. 2017 was pretty darn lucky. it was like a doug flutie hail mary pass into the end zone -- which was caught a back then, but it won't always be caught, these hail mary passes. and meanwhile, the blue collar boom won't start this year and might not even start next year. you can't wait. that's what i'm trying to tell you, both of you. you can't wait. you have to start in right away. >> remember, the tax cuts and job act don't expire until the end of next year, so we have that room to get it done right, not just get it --

larry: you don't have any room. that expiration date, that's the penalty zone. that's the penalty -- [laughter] you don't want to go near the penalty zone, senator cramer. you don't want to be within 100 yards of the penalty zone. senator lummis, come on, i'm counting on you, a good wyoming conservative. [laughter] you've got to talk some sense into this north dakota guy, for heaven sakes. all at once, ma'am. all at once. >> well, you are taking the jason smith, house ways and means committee -- larry: yes, yes. >> -- notion of this. larry: yes, yes. >> and, of course, the constitution was designed so the house would act first on taxes. larry: yes. >> so you might get your wish. larry: yes. >> if the house move moves pursuant to your design, purr if sunt to jason smith's design -- pursuant to jason smith's design and president trump's designs. larry: i'm just speaking. i can't speak for the president, lord knows, he will speak for it when he's ready to speak for it. but i will say this: sources

close to him are saying that he would like one big, beautiful bill. and that's something. and if he puts his foot down, it can be done. it can be done. i'm not going to tell you who i've been talking to in the senate, but i've talked to a lot of people, leadership and so -- it's just a matter of timing. don't wait. never take second best, you know? >> larry, president trump's the only one who won all six swing states -- larry: yes, ma'am. >> -- who won the popular vote, who survived two assassination attempts, who you are survived all these bow buts lawsuits. if anybody's -- bogus lawsuits. if anybody's earned the right to say what he wants in this space, it's president trump. believe me, he's going to be calling the shots. >> but it'd be better if he'd speak sooner rather than halfway h thpress. >> good point. larry: i'm sure he will. i'm not going to speak for him. he'll speak for himself. yes, he will speak, and i appreciate what you said, senator lummis. and as far as you're concerned,

senator cramer, how about some a pay-go? [laughter] come on. somebody's got to put a stop to all this biden spending. you've got to stop. i love you, sir, and i'm going to wish you both a very happy christmas and seasons greetings and whatever you're celebrating. but we should celebrate spending restraint and then pro-growth tax cuts, all right? thank you for coming on the show, we appreciate it. thanks ever so much. all right, folks, coming up, when is the fed going to say we're sorry? we're going to ask our very own charles payne right here on "kudlow," next up. and you can catch "kudlow," monday through friday, 4 p.m. on fabulous fox business. if you can't get us at four, please, just text your favorite 9-year-old, and she will show you how to dvr the show. you'll never miss a thing. you'll never miss a pay-go. pay-go, how about that? they cut pay-go out. i love congress. you know? love, love, love are. i'll be right back. ♪ ♪

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oh... he used to be a competitive gamer but with the higher lag, he can't keep up with his squad. so now we're his “squad”. what are kevin's plans for the fall? he's going to college. out of state, yeah. -yeah in the fall. change of plans, i've decided to stay local. oh excellent! oh that's great! why would i ever leave this? -aw! we will do anything to get him gaming again. you and kevin need to fix this internet situation. heard my name! i swear to god, kevin! -we told you to wait in the car. everyone in my old squad has xfinity. less lag, better gaming! i'm gonna need to charge you for three people. larry: the great nat king cole, unforgettable. it's christmas, we're plague stuff like that. anyway, unforgettable charles

payne who is unforgettable and has a fabulous show, host of "making money" on fox business and the author of a very good book, "unbreakable investor." charles, thank you for spending a little bit of time with us. you're the stock market expert. of i'll just say two things on this sort of correction. it's more of a dow correction, i understand that. but still, first point i want to say is i thought rumors that -- rumors, maybe the reality, that the tax cuts would be postponed way until the back end of the year. we're already hurting the success market. then yesterday the feds flip-flop or whatever it was. they should have said we blew it. now we see higher inflation. we actually see a stronger economy. so why were you with cutting interests the way you did in september and november and yesterday. i think the markets are befuddled and don't understand fiscal or monetary promises. >> right. western, the animal spirits --

well, the animal spirits are based on trump 2.0. larry: right. >> a couple things. first and fore if most, i thought yesterday's selloff was an indictment of jay powell -- larry: yes, 100%. >> the changes that they've made in their economic projections in just three months were mind-boggling. you can't be off that much. and why do you see the gdp going from 2% to 2.1%, but inflation going up .4% and fed funds going up even more? the dots didn't connect mathematically. and here's the other problem. right now they've taken 16% of tax revenue just to pay the rates. that's scheduled to go up to over 20% early in trump's administration, but higher for longer we could be talking 25%. that's a dilemma. and the strong dollar place right into china's hands for the tariff war. how does china really fight

against the tariff battle? it would be hard on the world stage and we would give them hell for it, but if the dollar went up, that would do the job for them already. so already we're at a place where if we can't trust the fed and the greater part of valor i- larry: what's wrong, it's not an exploding dollar -- >> just let me -- it's not the exploding dollar, but it's breaking out. anytime something breaks out, you have to become concerned about it because where does it go once it breaks out and if this uncertainty exists. i don't think -- i think all the uncertainty is the folks involved in this, right? you had a great interview, i love watching you. listen, both of those are two of my favorite folks -- larry: yeah, they're good folks. >> right. but everything you slammed was completely right -- larry: they're throwing pan if cakes at me, and i don't like it. >> why keep doing paint by numbers? larry: right. again, i don't want to repeat

the segment, but for god sakes, get rid of the debt ceiling. it's the stupidest darn thing. and pay-go, there's never any spend being cuts anymore. just common sense white if the fed is telling us, this is jay powell, okay? the fed's telling us inflation is higher than they thought and it's going to be longer than they thought, right? the latest estimates are they won't hit their 2% target until 2027. that's a long time. >> right. larry: if they're saying that, charles, then why are they cutting interest rates? if. charles: right, right. t it's a dilemma. larry: doesn't that spook investors and ordinary people who -- what's your message to me? you're saying inflation is worse. i agree, biden-flation is very stick by with, i get that -- sticky. why are you feeding into it? >> they do have a dilemma, larry. so in september we got from the bureau of labor statistics the breakdown of household spending, right, according to the cpi

report. so the top 20%, quintile, in 2023 did 44% of spending. the next did 27. so combine binded they did 70% of -- combined they did 70% of the spending. the rest of the households couldn't keep up. so so to curb that spending of the most fortunate 40% of the nation, the fed's got to hike rates. but when you hike rates, also that means my credit card goes from 15% to 23%. again, i'm not in the top quintile. i'm having trouble paying my bills, and now on top of that when i go to the grocery store not only are are prices hire, but when i use my. >> credit card to pay for it, i'm paying even more. and that was the legacy of biden, in my mind. larry: the best thing they could do, okay, look, i know, you know, we've had a recession or semi-recession for the bottom 50% for the last four years. >> right. larry: scott bessent, the treasury secretary to be, has said that frequently.

they're the ones that have suffered the most. you can go down the scale, i understand that. what you're saying is right. if somehow the fed would stick to its target, i don't want them to be jacking rates up, i'm just saying stop cutting rates. by the way, they could slim down their balance sheet and take system to have high-powered liquidity that the wealthy are using in the stock market out of circulation. >> right. larry: that would help. nothing would help those folks who are working than lower inflation, particularly lower prices, grocery and gasoline prices. point number two, i want to to give them more tax cuts. i want to give them more tax cuts so their take-home pay will be stronger. charles: absolutely. i'm with you a thousand percent. larry: you and i have orb the same page. all that's a long stone's throw from what the fed's doing. they are goofing around. they are saying black is white, white is black. no, how can you understand a central bank that is making mistakes, won't acknowledge if it, their models have failed and their strategy on inflation is failing? how do you figure?

>> when jay powell yesterday said that finding a job, that it's been pulling back moderate? i used a chart on my show yesterday and today, no, it's fallen off a cliff. it's collapsed. long-term unemployment over 27 weeks is sky skyrocketing. listingsings by deet deed -- listings by indeed has fallen off a cliff. so when i hear him talk about these things in such a casual american, it scares the hell out of me. it's not that it's happening, it's that you don't have a grasp on what's happening. and when you're data-dependent and it's so -- you're basing policies on faulty information. larry: right. >> you've got all the ph.d.s in the world, you have access to every business out there. get ahead of the curve sometime. larry: we've got to get out. you know what? it's because they have all the ph.d.s. [laughter] >> your right! larry: that's number one. number two, you know what i would say? try to deregulate everything in

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the real honey you love, plus the powerful cough relief you need. mind if i root through your trash? robitussin, with real honey & elderberry. ♪ larry: all right. very key development today, the united health care ceo murder suspect is in new york, and he's facing some very big new chargeses. alexis mcadams live outside the federal courthouse. alexis, thanks very much. this is a new development today. >> reporter: hey, larry, that's right. he's looking at four federal charges. but this morning investigators out in pennsylvania tell me luigi mangione told them he was feeling pretty good and a had just got a haircut at that jail in pennsylvania before he came to the big apple in federal

court. he also has some big, high profile and expensive attorneys here many new york city that are representing him. you might recognize them because it's the same law firm that's representing sean "diddy" combs. watch. >> we're going to respectfully decline the make any comment at this time. mr. mangione appreciates everyone's support. >> reporter: yeah, appreciates support, and there's been some support that's been pretty disturbing as i've covered this investigation, because people are saying he's some type of hero because he took out this ceo. that's part of the investigation too. but he got off that plane if here, and you can see him, he is with local, state and federal employees. i'm told by authority thises they did this specifically and wanted to walk him with the shackles on his wrists and legs because they want to show that that they went after of this guy in this manhunt and that nobody is above the law. that's why they had all those authorities out there. he didn't look too bothered. let's pull up these documents,

because these are some of them. he was talking and planning about this, i'm told to, for months. investigators say he wrote about how he was going to whack a health care ceo all the way back in august. he also seder according to police that he wasn't working with anybody. all it took was some basic engineering, some social engineering and a lot of patience. if we have it, i want to show you too the gun that police say was used. he made the gun and a silencer using a 3-d printer. you can see it on your screen. that was the same gun he had in his backpack, i'm told, out inial altoona. we talk about louie man -- ewey mangione, but brian thompson was who was shot and killed. he was a dad of two, he was just many town for business from the minneapolis area. police say he stalked and targeted thompson because of his job, but mangione didn't even have insurance insurance from united health care, neither did

his mom. so they don't know why he did this in the first place. mangione got obsessed with brian thompson, obsessed with united health care and planned to come to new york city to take him out, and that's why he's looking at possibly the death penalty in this case, larry. larry: yes. well, death penalty, there you go. alexis mcadams, thank you very much. let's bring in alex marlow, editor-in-chief of the breitbart news, host of the alex marlow show. alex, i just want to summarize, i mean, here's the part that interests me, you have a new federal charge of this murderer. it's a terrorist charge. a federal charge. which then makes him eligible for the death penalty. and, alex, i will just today so -- say to you with, i am not generally, i'm more of a life imprisonment guy, i'm not a death penalty guy, but if there's a time to use the death penalty, it would be on this mangione guy. and from what i gather legally, it's the new federal terrorist charge that makes him eligible

for the death penalty. >> oh, yeah, harry. if he's convicted, what benefit is he to society just incarcerated and getting love letters and marriage proposals for the rest of his life from all the sick freaks who justified this murder? your reporter said such an important point, larry. he was not a united health care customer. he was never denied care from anyone. he's a rich guy who didn't get some bill paid because of money. this is a huge disgrace, the left backed this up. and, absolutely, i'm with you. larry: yes. this is a left-wing, you know, conspiracy, whatever. we'll see about that. but this wasn't a nonpayment or nondisbursement. the other thing, knowst one of your favorites, fani willis out of business down there in georgia. i know it's one of your favorites. what to do you make of this story? >> it's great. she had to get kicked off of this case because she hired her unqualified boyfriend, she paid him triple the rate with

taxpayer money, and he kicked that money back to her vie ya luxury vacations. he was trying to bring trump up on rico charges, he didn't understand the law that he was dealing with. he had to study up on it and still was getting this sweetheart deal. of course it's improper. they're the real gangsters, and they had to go away. but we could have won bigger on this one because, if you think about it, this whole case is a breach of due process, it should have been thrown out, and it's still there, unfortunately. larry: all right. we'll leave it there. alex marlow, appreciate it very, very much. all right, let's go back to capitol hill. joining us now, our favorite new york congresswoman, claude claudia tenney, and our favorite pennsylvania congressman, lloyd smucker. claude yarks i need to to go short here, but i'm going to begin with you. here's the question, how quickly can the ways and means committee report out a tax extension and tax reform bill? this is a crucial question.

we've had jason smith if on, we want one bill, reconciliation bill, not two or three bills. how fast can you get one out of ways and means? serious but really important question, claudia. >> we can't get one soon enough after january 20th, because we just don't know what the makeup of our committees will look like, and we've got to get it through because it is the secret formula to creating the growth that president trump needs to unleash our economy whether it's, you know, dealing with energy or getting rid of inflation. the doge cuts, all those things are going to happen. we've got to do it very, very quickly, and i agree with you, it has to be to done in one bill. breaking it up only risks us getting two bills with nothing -- larry: yes! >> normally, onlike that, but -- larry: no, that's right. lloyd, i'm going to ask you the same question. i need a tax bill by a hundred days. maximum, 120 days. 100 days, tax bill. then we can convince senator john thune -- who's a good man, by the way, and he wants the

agenda to get through, he's just concerned it can't be done quickly new. i've had jason on the show, all right? he says it can be with done quickly. he says you all have been looking at this since april of this past year. can you get it out? i ask you with. >> i think, larry, 100%, you're correct on this. chairman smith is right on this. we're better off doing this as quickly as possible. we have a mandate from the american people on the border, on energy policy and on tax policy. we can do this all at once. we can do it very quickly. i'll say this as well though, if the administration continues to push an earlier what hay call a skinny if -- what they call a skinny bill, we can still get it all done. we've got to do this right. and i'll say one other piece, a larry, we've got to insure that we're doing this in a fiscally responsible way. all of those tax cuts should be paid for with strong economic growth that drives additional revenue or spending cuts.

the american people are looking for us to be fiscally responsible here. we've got to change the fiscal trajectory of this country. larry: i don't have time to go through the whole thing, but, you know, lloyd, you're right, but i don't agree with all -- i mean, i want dynamic scoring, lord knows. i don't think you lose a dime of revenues. that's what the the last, i mean, reagan tax cuts, the revenues went up. kennedy tax cuts, the revenues went up. trump tax cuts, the revenues went up. but, claudia, just on that point, there's a permanent policy baseline. why should it be scored as a revenue loser or deficit increaser? they have current services spending baselines. those aren't scored as new deficits, they never are. i don't want to settle for that. we're playing their game here. >> well, the biggest problem is and our challenge is we don't have a 60-vote threshold in the senate, so we're forced into the reconciliation process, and we're forced under the parking

lot -- parking lotly rules of the senate. -- parol parol meant arely rules of the senate. if we'll have to do that in another stand-alone bill. if we were doing this with a regular vote, we had a 60-vote margin, we could to do that and get dynamic scoring instead of the static scoring we're getting going into that. larry: maybe social security has to wait. i understand that. you can do tips, you can do overtime. you can extend all the existing -- the individual tax cuts for, you know, a couple, $3,000 per family, working class families for the blue collar boom. you got the standard deduction was doubled, the kiddie credit was doubled, you know? the small business tax deduction is -- those are very important elements. i mean, lloyd, i want you to get through this. i'm just saying, look, hundred days. how about that? a little over three months. i'll eve f even -- even give you 120 days. just have to persuade those

senators, those wonderful, high-bound republican senators who sometimes are a little bit afraid to be bold and transformational. you've got to persuade them that the house can deliver. and if on tax policy, the heart of the house is the ways and means committee. >> yeah, that's exactly right. we can deliver on this. we can do it in that time frame and just to go back to the point i made earlier, you know, in 1962 our tax revenue was about 17% of gdp? it still is today. larry: yes. yes. >> that that's stayed fairly constant. in 1962 our spending was 18% of gdp, today it's 24. no one can looked at this and say that we don't have a spending problem, and this is our opportunity. larry: well, that's right. >> the american people do not want government -- larry: no, you're right. >> i'm so excited about doge. we're going to get rid of this bloated, massive the -- larry: you're right. listen, i wrote a book about the jfk tax cuts. i had a couple wonderful

senators, friends of mine who led off the show that, you know, told me why there's no such thing as a pay-go, anyway, i don't want to go into it. but it would be nice to cut spending just once in a while. claudia tenney, thank you very much. congressman lloyd smucker, we appreciate it very much. all right, folks, coming up on the flipside, americans are facing a massive tax hike if congress bungles the tax cut story. actually, that's not what we're going to talk about. we're going to talk about goofy doge spending cuts that we're going to do with the tax foundation's scott hodge. mind if i edit my teleprompter here. we'll be right back. i'm kudlow. ♪ ♪ ready. the markets, like life, will turn and challenge us. but when emotions run high, we stay grounded. with the hcm buyline, we work to empower investors, in navigating market volatility and complex conditions. we provide a diverse portfolio with proprietary mutual

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it's our son, he is always up in our business. it's the verizon 5g home internet i got us. oh... he used to be a competitive gamer but with the higher lag, he can't keep up with his squad. so now we're his “squad”. what are kevin's plans for the fall? he's going to college. out of state, yeah. -yeah in the fall. change of plans, i've decided to stay local. oh excellent! oh that's great! why would i ever leave this? -aw! we will do anything to get him gaming again. you and kevin need to fix this internet situation. heard my name! i swear to god, kevin! -we told you to wait in the car.

everyone in my old squad has xfinity. less lag, better gaming! i'm gonna need to charge you for three people. larry: all right. joining us now, scott hodge, president of the tax foundation. you write in the washington examiner all these redundant programs. knock a few out for us, would you? it's phenomenal stuff. this is doge stuff. >> oh, doge stuff, yeah, indeed, larry. you know, the government ought to be treated like a company that's in receivership, bankrupt. and is we need to get rid of obsolete programs like the tennessee valley are authority, the how about the corporation for public broadcasting? amtrak. the -- all kinds of issues

whether it's government lands or agencies that have outlived their usefulness. there are too many programs that were started before the great depression that are stilling being funded today. and it's time to look through each and every one of those and say is this obsolete, should it be done by the private sector, should it be done by state and local governments instead, should it be a federal funk at all. that's how -- function at all. larry: let me read you what you to got, 44 federal employment programs. 44. 15 agencies involved in food safe i. 80 to programs involved in economic development. 100 programs involved in surface transportation. gao, government accounting office, identified 56 programs spanning more than 20 different agencies involved in financial literacy, and they all flunk. i mean, i think there's a lot of work that the doge brothers can do. sorry we're running short, scott hodge. we'll talk soon.

i' m kudlow. doge brothers, go to work.it?" lots to do. [ employees snoring ] anything can change the world of work. from hr to payroll, adp designs for the next anything. ...

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larry: all right, here is the thought. abolish the phony debt sealing once and for all, okay? and cut taxes and cut spending. i don't know about pay-co. get the doge brothers, cut the taxes close the border and have a blue collar boom. that's all i want but i really want elizabeth macdonald up next. liz: we all do, just kidding larry couldn't agree more. you know this christmastime drama has got to go. it's so phony. you're the best larry merry

chri