equity markets are might be digesting that ahead of perhaps cpi tomorrow. >> they're selling bonds, buying stocks, stocks have dipped. makes sense to me. and possibly more confidence of what about to come. >> shopping reminder on earrings. men of the world realize let's get out and buy earrings and retail stocks. >> masculine energy you're bringing to the show today? >> there's an argument about that >> charles payne has masculine energy he's bringing to the markets. charles: say that in 2025. i love thank as lot. good afternoon. i'm charles payne, this is making money and breaking right now, stocks are trying to rally and struggling to escape the shadow of the growing inflation fears. even wall street expectation couldn't massing the growing fears and tariffs for the boogie man has the market all shook up and major indexes are higher and

bias is still to the downside and nevertheless, we'll talk about what may turn all of this around. certainly earning season may change everything tomorrow big banks start the party off. erica will prepare us for that. bond vigilantes on the move in japan, uk and also in the usa. do they really even exist? animal spirits on main street continues with optimism surging and might take awhile. it's aigrette thing. and i'll speak with one local resident of los angeles doing his part to help his neighbors and city. all that and more on making money. ♪ ♪

charles: april 13, 1957 and all shook up by elvis and it remained atop the billboards and that's what's happening it to the financial market and these days it's the word tariff or tariffs and deadly headline on the guessing game of the trump team rolling out the central cam tiana promise having an impact on the market and yesterday bloomburg reported z the trump team was studying a gradual increase and that headline helped lift our stock market, which stumbled out of the gate and other assets like the arrow that took off. see when that headline came out and when the euro began to really scream higher. now, if you're thinking tariffs were a essential campaign issue that the markets more fretting about, it's not the only thing. inflation, anxiety, that's start to grow. this morning there's december producer price index. it climbed again less than expected. the expectation's game and of course with that the character shared but that part of the story, all though moving the markets higher and yields lower,

can't really mask red flags and there's some red flags, folks. these can'ts, all these components are fed into the personal consumption pce. that's the highest climb ever. it's not just airlines. portfolio management, positions care, home and health hospice, hurricanessing home care. all jumped big time month over month, all of them part of the fadaises bringing in vance howard. welcome back to the show. >> good to see you, charles. charles: you see a bit more downside and consolidation phase. >> yeah, on a short term basis. not long term. intermediate long term we're very positive, and charles, you've been in the game long, long time. they get tired too. charles: they get tired and consolidate. it's okay. i love these as period of testing and shakeout and the

lead sisters and 2025 and may have to use that term again hear's some things that you're looking at is and why we may be a bit under pressure for now. 10 year yield, strong dollar and you also have your own proprietary work with a short term pivot point and we've reach that had. >> look at 10 year yield and organically climbing and the fed dropped rates and it's somewhat interesting. the dollar was a bit stronger too and putting pressure -- charles: i mean, you said it pretty casually. it's never spiked to this degree after the first rate cuts. >> remember, the equity market is fighting the money market and now there's a different equation of where is the money placed. get 5% and completely safe and take equity risks, and i think you'll have a battle going on there. but the 10 year yields, charles, is telling us something. that inflation is not under control and not rampant or out of control but something to consider. charles: we can live at 4.7%.

>> yeah. charles: talk about tariffs and have you made otoacoustic any adjustments based on the ais ups of tariff s? >> zero. we have a long road ahead of us before tariffs are enacted and see how they want to behave but remember one thing about tariffs, he puts them on and can also take them off. charles: right and felt again, i think it'll be short lived and we're the strongest economy in the world and if we don't fight back now, we may not get a chance. earning season tomorrow and so interesting that seeing your notes and tough earning environment and everyone else on the pompoms and 11.9% and best earning season in a couple of years, but you say no. look at comps and elevated estimates and also the lower beat rate.

>> we're seeing what plays out on all this and one factor here people need to take into account what happened in california. lost 2,000 homes and home just -- 12,000 homes and just homes alone and look at banks like wells fargo and bank of america and talking default, mortgage defaults and some of them are $10, $20 million and insured for $3 million s. that investor going to write a $20 million check? it's going to put pressure on banks that's going to hurt earnings too. charles: defaults are climbing and we saw a lot of these things in motion. let's talk about a couple names that you do find compelling here. o'rieley and salesforce. >> i don't know more that bought back than o'riely. it's a machine and unstop a stock. charles: put this away and look every five to ten years, you'll be happy. >> it's really well managed and doing well. early last year, salesforce.com

and by april the stock was down and now of course it's verne versed and been on fire these ai agents are -- is that, i mean, they seem to have gotten in position there before everyone else. >> that's our top pick of the year for 2025, salesforce. there's a pullback now and getting the stock at a discount and what's going to happen with sales, i love recurring revenue and don't have to go sell a new product and recurring revenue and good earning ands ai is a big factor increasing earnings per share. charles: ai changed the game. >> isn't it good? charles: good stuff, my man. the watch is like $100,000. i see you, my man. dan just mentioned the banks and kicking off earnings season tomorrow and wall street looking for big, big things and take a look at this. in your panel services, area, there's five areas and big four up, insurance down by the way probably a lot more than this. look at what wall street is looking for for banks and that's crazy and looking for 187%

earnings growth. of course, remember four banks reporting tomorrow are up and maybe concentrate trace risks and banks have come on and a strong play. look at moves from last year and pulling back a bit after the november spike and trump trade kind of thing. last week my next guest wrote a piece titled can bank haves all the nice things in 2025? bring in ubs or u.s. large bank analyst erica najarian. nice seeing you. you laid out the backdrop of why things should be fantastic and yet in your note you say we've been down this road before in a very ominous tone. what's that all about? >> typically everything you listed here doesn't necessarily go together. if we get for example higher rates for longer, maybe loan growth not as strong and money

centers do so well because they capture the demand of corporations in terms of financing on the balance sheet and for capital markets. charles: should it be -- is it too good to be true? an element that seems too simple? felt like maybe it's just -- we should be a little cautious. >> i completely disagree. the banks are low key ready to go. charles: ready to go? >> yea, because they've pulled back on the trump trade and everybody pes to poo poo them on whatever reason and higher rates but the big piece, the deregulation piece is massive. over christmas the fed said they were going to revisit the stress test for this year and banks suing the regulators and unlocking for growth and capitol return, that's huge. >> next thing today and talking banks and consumer finance and

deregulation catalyst and it's interesting that banks are file ago lawsuit against the federal reserve, which i thought was interesting and thought they were related like went down to jekyll island and birthed the federal reserve. but i never believed in the stress test and the piece of paper affects the economy. >> it is a third or more of capital requirement and that changes every year and changes in terms of how much supply banks have for lending or how much capital they have to return to shareholders so as long as we get to be more transparent, then that's going to be a big deal, again, for the stocks. charles: talking about the money center banks because you've said they're well positioned and it's so interesting because of a

dominant position and these are money center buys. these are your old targets and new targets. just equally own them? they all -- wells fargo is intriguing and there's the same price target and a whole lot of issues for a long time and every time they report and saying everything is behind them and maybe it's not. you think the coast is clear? >> the coast is clearing for wells fargo but in the higher for longer violence i think bank of america is really the outperformer here and lagging jp and trellis a multiple standpoint probably because bust has been selling but in the environment for higher for longer, b of a is a big catchup trade here. charles: that's a big, big move over 20% and looking for cart names and underdog of sorts. i looked at two credit card names and one, capital one and

discover. capital one is an underdog here. >> absolutely. i'm so excited and all my stock picks are at macro rates or loan growth or valuation. this is my first story stock. like this deal for discover is really gaming in terms of capitol one's earnings power. $235 is just the first step in terms of what i think is a multiyear re-rating and not just the multiple but the earnings power of capitol one. charles: vance talked about fires and potential impact on banks. we already saw delinquencies coming up. how much of a threat is that? >> not relevant. we have credit cycle with job losses that lead to higher defaults. so these, you know, these wild fires are going to be obviously episodic issues but i can't see

banks charging off someone that just lost their home. there's plenty of earnings to cover this and this will be a nonevent for the stocks. charles: great stuff. always great to see you. >> thank you. charles: good, good stuff. folks, here's the question, are the bond vigilante's bank or do they exist? what it means for your portfolio and how politics will impact the economy this year. you don't want to mis-it, he's next. ♪

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charles: all right, folks. bond yields are spooking investors and the bond vigilantes are back. they hadn't been a factor in the united states in a while but this article here, bond vigilantes and talking about uk guild and multi-decade high and u.s. dollar is strong and fed signals and this is at the beginning of a couple of days ago hawaii happens is it's really happen ago lot and i don't know, some say it's like big foot and vigilante's

themselves don't exist but the action does. we know a couple years ago they ran prime minister of uk liz trust out of office. she left faster than a head of lettuce and the uk willing rolled again and these are headlines out of uk. bond yields are soaring and putting the government's economic plan at resident and can everything is retreating and everyone is afraid. it's not just in great britain. this is japan. remember in the somewhere they said they were going to hike rate as bit and market went crazy? now no one is in control and it's on its own. maybe that's the bond vigilantes and 10-year yield is soaring. we brought in john lonski to get to the bottom of this. i was told there was no such thing as bond vigilantes and something is spooking the market and it's reflect in the bond yields. >> may might be like ghost riders in the sky and something is taking place and pushing

treasury bond yields higher and why are yields rising? to help slow the economy to prevent the economy from growing so rapidly that there's resurging inflation and moreover, they're worried about the budget deficit and talking about possibility of buying greenland for perhaps just under $2 trillion, that would involve adding $2 trillion to u.s. government debt. i don't think the market is ready for something like that. charles: even with that and japan trying to buy or the uk, this is a global problem though. >> look at japan and all the foreign academies and they're rate of economic growth is less than 2% n. some cases like germany, they're barely growing at all. you have to ask yourself what in the world is happening. one factor is the rising u.s. treasury bond yield and pulling it higher elsewhere in the world and the other economies cannot

afford higher long term borrowing costs and makes it all the more likely that their economies are going to remain flat to lower. charles: in our country, folks, i'll remind you, friday the michigan sentiment report came out and inside that report there was a -- they ask about inflation and where would inflation be for the next year and next five years? absolutely went through the roof. looking at it closely, these are democrats, they said it was going to go through the roof and these are republicans. that's a wash and yesterday the new york fed came out with their own version and going up like where it's really craze jim jordan going up and let me ask you about this and in this country, inflation expectations and it's coming from a lot of different sources just like fear of tariffs and deficit to your point and some are saying hey, maybe the fed is not doing their job. there's a lot of different authors of this but how worried are you on a scale of 1-10 something to look for, a fossil?

>> i think there's probably 50/50 chance of inflation taking off. charles: fed going to hike rate s? >> not rate cuts till the third quarter at earliest, too early to predict rate hikes and i wouldn't dismiss that possibility. after all, never before in history have we had the fed cut rates bay full percentage point while at the same time the 10 year treasury yield rises by more than a percentage point. the bond market disagrees with the fed as far as the risk of higher inflation and where the economy is headed. charles: bonds are a central portion of people's portfolio and a lot of viewer haves 60/40 portfolio and easy money for many years and it's been straight down and unmitigated disaster. but, now that it's yielding 5%, people are saying it is

attractive and it's come down a lot. you can lock in 5% and this might be a better bet than buying the stock market right now. your thoughts on just tlt as investment here? >> going up -- out more than one year, it's a good investment but not ruling out higher possibility of even higher treasury bond yield and corporate bond yields over the next six months till it becomes clear as to whether or not the u.s. economy slows buying enough to allow disinflation to continue. long term, a good bet. charles: great stuff. jon, appreciate you coming in and straightening that out for us. folks, if you don't have your ticket yet, still get it. it'll be an amazing show and in studio show unbreakable investor and in the new deal today, town hall on thursday. not too late and it'll be phenomenal and learn things you never knew before and more importantly, i'll prepare few your prosperity for the next three decades. get your free ticket at

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charles: my next guest said president trump's inauguration will be a big positive turnovers and the market because in part a lot of concerns will be dissuadessed and not a magic bullet and bring in trader cofounder ayesha tariq. how will the inauguration help things? >> hi, charles, thank you for having me back in 2025. i wrote this before this morning's news and this morning we worktop find president elect trump saying we're going to have tariffs but in a more staggered fashion, and i think that kind of shows you what we may expect from his inauguration speech that many people are jumping on his policies thinking they're going to be really bad for the country and the markets and he's a businessman at heart and he'll come out and give you some, you know, signs of concerns that the

market is having. charles: yeah, reminds me of election night 2016 where everything was in a free fall and having conciliatory looks and rampant spending and look at earnings as a positive and worried in part consensus and we're expecting almost 12% growth, which would be the highest since the fourth quarter since 2021. could that be too optimistic? >> i'm not sure if it's too optimistic and tempering expectations as we go along, and i think we'll have a bit of a bumpy earning season, and i think that is because of the earnings calls. i think there'll be a lot of questions around, you know, slower fed cuts, inflation, tighter labor market, but for me i want to hear more about how the consumer is right now

because we haven't discussed the consumer in a while and out health of the consumer at the moment. charles: it's interesting and airlines are killing it there and signet with the stock down 25% and maybe we'll cherry pick the data for that. talk about your picks right now. you've got four stock ideas and going with j bill circuit and i followed the stock big time. jbl. what did you like about it right now because i lost track of it. >> again this, is a company that designs and builds electronic circuit boards, assembly systems, and i think with all the data center buildout and the reason we're seeing ai stocks, you know, take off, this is adjacent to that and they could really, really benefit for the demand for semiconductors and data center buildout. charles: ayesha, you're making

me a little nerve, ezc, is that a pawnshop? pawnshop stocks u you're telling me something, aren't you? >> i want to understand more about how the consumer is right now. what we're seeing is tightening within the budgets and people are trading down and that's why we think there's tail winds for this operator. charles: i love the ag story and robert kennedy jr. and trends of eating healthier and you've got an ag play, d ba; right? >> that's right. it's an etf that's a mix of different agricultural products. charles: think that's the place to be and a few years ago i loaded up on farm stocks and got crushed and now they're all coming back, and i think this is the time to be in them. ayesha, thank you, very issue v much. appreciate it always.

>> thank you. charles: switching gears, los angeles wild fire saw one estimate saying the damage is approaching $250 billion. of course it's a per subpoenas that the fires only hit wealthy neighborhoods, but that's just not the case. right now there is a scramble, a life and death scramble to get help to people out there and many are stepping up including mike santiago, he is the president of california heat hockey club and it's a nonprofit. michael, mike, i call you michael. this is my nephew by the way, folks. first, talk about your own personal experience here because i know that the first fire started about 25 miles away from your house and this west fields fire is only eight miles away. how does it feel because for everyone looking, it looks like armageddon. >> yeah, from our standpoint, we're up in chats worth and north of the palisades fire and

see from the south mountains from us. you see the smoke and then just the concern that other fires pop up so west hills fire, eight miles from us and again, not in the direct path but necessarily the concern of the winds and you never know what's going to happen so we're just always kindekinds of on our toes and watching and seeing what happens and the next steps could be. system of articulation charles: in the middle of all this, you decide to do a drive to help those in your community, donate items and give to local youth and emergency e havinguation shelters and initially it was going to be a juan day event last saturday but now you're doing it every day. talk about items that you're trying to -- that you need the most for these folks. >> yeah, we started just a bit in our own hockey community and that's something that we've grown in. my son plays travel hockey here

in southern california, and we know how tight knit that community is. we decide, hey, during saturday, let's pick up items and see if people can donate items and we'll get them to one of the evacuation centers or places that are in most need right now. people started coming out and hearing stories of what some of the families within our program were going through, some of them were, you know, directly right in at dina and the eaton -- altadena and the eaton fire and as people started bringing more and more stuff, we realized maybe we could keep this going at least through the end of this week, see what we can -- what people will donate and we can get together and get that out. so items like bottled water and essential items and anything -- canned goods, we've heard people in need of diapers. for their kids and a lot of folks in homes where friends and

family, other people are going to hotels. whatever we can do to make them comfortable during this time, we want to help out. charles: by the way, anyone in the area who wants to help, brining these straight to la kings valley ice sente, 8750 van nuys boulevard in panama city and some people are sending things fedex to this and it's from 10-7:00 p.m.. before i let you go, mike, you've been always just a beautiful community oriented person. i'm really proud of you, man. >> thank you so much. i really appreciate it. charles: keep it up. we'll get you donations. talk to you again soon. >> thank you. talk to you soon. charles: you too. by the way, fox corp. also has made a $1 million donation to the red cross california wild fires relief efforts and if you'd like to help there, go to american red cross and they

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let's go boys. the way that i approach work, post fatherhood, has really been trying to understand the generation that we're building devices for. here in the comcast family, we're building an integrated in-home wifi solution for millions of families, like my own. connectivity is a big part of my boys' lives.

it brings people together in meaningful ways. ♪ ♪ charles: my next reminds investor when is it comes to equity markets, there's a seller for every buyer. macro trends explains that 70% of stock movements so you have to understand what the macro-backdrop is and that's driving the market. now, by the way, he's also ranked number one portfolio strategist and chief investment strategist and michael cantuist. these reports have amazing charges and people get great weekend reading and sometimes they may be intimidating and not from me. number one positioning for 2025 and embrace mid cycle factors and not early ones. walk us through what that means.

>> yeah, some of the day it is small cyclical and we're seeing manufacturing pmis and they've been depressed for two years and it's improving as well ask it's not surprising given we're seeing the benefits of lower rates so usually that's a very good backdrop for ebbing with ities. but usually investors are not as focused on interest rates and inflation as they are today and that's why i think we're seeing markets struggle with higher yields des spite better data. statcharles: so you're still ina soft landing camp? >> yeah, the worst is behind us for the normalization or the softening of employment. obviously still if rates keep rising perhaps creates new risks, but we're starting to see green shoots. again, like small business data, manufacturing pmis and should lead to better earnings breath. charles: that's were areas depressed to your point and manufacturing for two years and

saying where's the manufacturing and all though the jobs report was disappointing with the losing manufacturing and jobs. you're highlighting the two most important risk factors and there's a conversation with anyone about the markets right now about financial markets and this being the first part of the conversation. >> yeah. i think if you look back throughout history, the s&p has had a 10% correction 27 times since 1960. the vast majority are higher interest rates and that's what we saw in 2022. we saw that right from the powell pivot in 2018 and summer before 2023, those are the three corrections we've seen. for the foreseeable future, market risks are more about higher interest rates than growth weakness. charles: there's a reason for high interest rates and in the past to your point, we all -- there was almost a conventional wisdom or unified thought of what was driving it and now

there's a lot of different theories out there and theories of what trump may do when inaugurated with tariffs and deportation and all kinds of different theories out there, and it feels like -- it's interesting to me that rates are reacting to these things. >> that's theories and data. theories it's hard to deny them or debunk them, and that's fair. the data that bot bottomed in te middle of september and coincided with the fed rate cut of 50-basis points and the unemployment data in the u.s. after that growth scare in august, which probably caused the fed to cut 50. we saw employment -- just every data point and claims coming in lower and unemployment started coming down and we -- last week and employment surprises at seven month high in the u.s. and that's probably the most important data that the fed and investors are following right now. charles: what about lack of confidence in the fed to that point because -- and again, listen, powell said, listen,

we're -- inflation is okay and we'll be zeroed in on labor and making a quick 180 on that. is there any of this a lack of confidence in jay powell? >> i think it's a recognition of uncertainty and data dependent reflects that and if we look at interest rates right now, people are really focused and last time they were this focused back in april and this time in late 2023, family are trying to understand why we're getting five month moves where rates go up and down for five mo months d in a very reflexive environment. charles: and the u.s. dollar verse market concern situate i have a minute to go and talking about this and you went over the ales model in different variables and there's a lot of factors and what's interest sergeant two 4% stock withs a sale rating and hard to get a sell rating on wall street and by the time they're at a sell,

it's a buy and that's besides the point. folks are watching the show and saddled with stocks they've been with for a long time and have no clue or idea how do i let this stock go? some is ego and some is legitimate of the least amount of up site pomoxus ten and shall simpler way of going through something like that? >> i'd say right now and interest rates are driving the equity market and you want to approach it from a macro perspective and if the economy in the u.s. is staying healthy and rate haves peaked, rate wills stay where they are with volatility and stocks you've owned for the last two years and take small caps for example, they've gone up really heavily on the idea that rates are going to come down and the fed will cut 10 times or seven times, that's the stuff that's getting hit now and may really struggling this will year if anything that -- whether it's tariffs or inflation or stronger growth keeps interest rates

elevated. charles: great stuff. great seeing you and happy new year. appreciate it. folks, there's so many investing opportunities here that we can't talk about it all; right. i try to write about it every night and morning so check my stuff out too . daily market commentary at wstreet.com and i put a lot of work into it and i think you'll love it. in the meantime, mike mentioned small businesses feeling strong like bull. renewed animal spirits and why it could be an amazing thing. hillary cramer here on why it is important to be an optimist and how to make it work. we'll be right back. ♪

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fib? it was phenomenal, this report, focus. and really you could see it's the animal spirits, absolutely phenomenal. so the spike here at the end of this chart, you can see it if you look closer, 105 is the number. why that's important, it's the second consecutive month it's been over the a 51-year average of 98. that's how bad things have been. by the way, also the highest read since 2018. and so we are thrilled when small businesses are pumped. we love small businesses more than any if other entity out there. soft components are what's driving this thing, that's your blue line. it spiked up, things like business conditions, the outlook, right, for expansion, expected retail sales, thicks like that. -- things like that. we're anticipating things to be amazing. the most significant 2-month decline on record was held, right, we saw this is from uncertainty. see that spike in uncertainty going into the election? if we'd never been there before.

small businesses are feeling so much before, it went from 110 to 86, again, the biggest move down, the air came out like a relief, right? it's not just small business, by the way, republican voters are expecting inflation to completely fade away. and now a record percentage of investors think that there's less than -- less than a 10% probability of a stock market crash. now, of course, on wall street some say that's a contrarian indicator and not good. i think it is a great thing. now, my next guest called the election and was positioned for trump's victory last year, investment analyst hillary kramer. just your thoughts on, i don't know, i think it's important to be optimist ific in general. >> always. especially because in the long run the market does go up. and being pessimistic doesn't pay off. we know that. charles: last week you hit a bump in the road. i have some new subscribers, one sent a long e-mail. he's upset, you know, it's, like, you're going to lose money

because the market goes up and down, and every time it hits concern it goes down or you listen to all these -- there are people who make a living day after day, year after year with these negative predictions that that never come true. so you can't be seduced by that, can you? >> no. but it is very seductive, that doomsday scenario. but there's so many optimism out there, and -- so much optimism, and and really it's about taxes, tax relief for small businesseses. it's just been crushing businesses. and now there's that opportunity, and we all feel, big business, small business, wall street, farmers, everyone feels that now we have someone on our side. charles: 2025's going to be the year of robots. we're all excited about the humanoid to robot, but you like this theme as an investment this year. i loved the way you broke it down. the infrastructure of robots, right? and you've got names like rockwell collins. >> right. rockwell and then emerson, emr,

those are old-time stock, but they're in bed with manufacturing and with the big companies, and it's really controls, it's building the systems. and so it's hardware and software when it comes to rockwell and emerson. and then autodesk, that's your engineering, your 3-d design, that's how the manufacturing plants are running themselves and getting built. and they're -- charles: and i like that you also had amberella, just a few years ago it was through the roof. that was your real a play on the drones. doesn't matter, they need the cameras and sensors. >> absolutely. they're in the venture capital world, only a $3 billion market tech, and there's so much opportunity. you take a drone, all this visual we have, we have the interpret it. and a.i.'s the only way to interpret it. charles: you say this company --

iot, stock symbol, internet of things. >> right. charles: and you say you have to be long this stock. >> you have to be long seven star a rah. it is one of those stocks because they're in everything and they're able to to apply a.i. and go across cross all the different platforms -- charles: the chart is phenomenal, i've been in there. i think i got it too early. [laughter] again, internet of things, i think, is all you need to know. >> that is all we need to know and not to look backwards. nvidia's great, yes, but we've got to look forward. some of the older and newer stocks. charles: you also in your portfolio, most recent note, everyone's talking tariffs in a spooky kind of way. of course, you'retown it -- talking about it in an opportunistic kind of way. one is cater pill lahr. >> caterpillar is absolutely essential. we are going to have infrastructure development, and we're going to have the

investment, and the banks are going to be on the side of to doing these big infrastructure projects. and we need them. we talked about the bridges and tunnels and airports. charles: they sell a lot of equipment to china. counter-tariffs or retaliation, you're not too concerned about that? >> i'm not concerned because i have faith in the administration's hand thatting of tariffs and how it will work, and it's going to affect caterpillar, not in the way everyone expects which is why you want to be -- charles: bouncing off that 200-day moving average. we've got less than a minute to go. everyone we've spoke to today, rates. you can't talk about the markets without talking about these rates. they keep going up. you're saying we shouldn't be aggrade of a 5% 10-year yield with. why are we afraid of it in the fist place? >> because we've gotten spoiled with free money. but this was always standard, right? a mortgage was 7.5-8%. but right now at this moment it is a concern with bonds and people's portfolios, every

investor. but we don't have the worry because you're going to see more than two rate cuts in 2025 the -- charles: you have a lot of high beta names, if someone's under pressure, just be cool? it comes with the territory. >> just stay with it. stay the course. have and, ultimately, you're going to see a portfolio, it could be up 100%. i know we just came out of 50% over two years, but you watch over these four years -- charles: all right, you got it. liz claman, we're losing altitude pretty quickly. liz: then we gained it earlier, lost it, gained it -- [laughter] charles: yeah. liz: grab the bags in the seat front of you. we do have a wild ride with stocks on this tuesday, dow jones industrials in the green by 90 points. the s&p toggling back and forth into red and green, right now down 7 points. nasdaq is lore by 8. the russell -- by 83. the russell up 16 points. not because of anything that's