always remember that the spin stops right here because we are definitely looking out for are definitely looking out for you. closed captioning by closed captioning services, inc. >> sean: breaking news on the debt ceiling battle. house republicans will delay a vote on speaker bane's 2.5 trillion dollar proposal until thursday. this news after the congressional budget office revealed that boehner's plan fails to reach the intended 1.2 trillion in cuts that were promised. reaction to president obama's bizarre primetime address to the nation continues to pour in. to put it bluntly the reviews have been anything but positive. here's mitch mcconnell. >> i know the president would rather give speeches about our problems than resolve them. but he wasn't elected to talk

about the united states. he was elected to lead it. americans are waiting for the president to do what they elected him to do. not to lecture, but to lead. >> sean: republicans this house expressed outrage today over the partisan nature of the president's speech. >> the president's speech last night, i believe was historic. i do not recall the last time a president of the united states used a nationally televised address, not to tell the american people what he was for. but to tell the american people what he was against. seven days out from his august 2nd, deadline, there is still no plan to deal with the debt crisis from the president. >> sean: things have gotten so bad for this white house that some of the president's fans in the mainstream obamamania media are calling him out on his lack of leadership. >> why not just release that plan. >> it is not a plan.

it wasn't a plan the same way we are getting a plan on the house side. >> we don't know with what the medicare is the social security part is. >> we talk in great detail about what is in medicare and you know it. >> why not put it out there? >> sean: i think those are fair questions. joining me author of the great american awakening, two years that changed america, washington and me, senator demint, welcome back. >> good to be back with you. >> sean: before we get to -- i'm getting a little angry here. because before we get.com meeting republican plans and there are numerous ones. there's been numerous votes in the house. the senate won't take up a lot of the deals. we've got to find out, how did we get here? no president has spent or created deficits as large as this one. that's issue number one. the president can't lead. he seems arrogant, angry, pefp

length even. has not presented the -- petulant even. has not presented the american people a plan. ' tax and uses class warfare. this in many ways is unprecedented. i wanted your thoughts on his leadership style or lack thereof. >> it is frustrating to work with someone who never puts their position out. he talks about things but he doesn't put anything in writing. his position is constantly fluctuating. he set this debt limit. we didn't. he spent the money that pushes us past the debt limit. he wants to blame republicans for the economy. but his policies have made it worse. he wants a showdown. he has pushed this thing up against the deadline. republicans have given him the increase in the debt limit he wanted. all we're asking is that we put the country on a path towards a balanced budget. he says that's extreme. it is almost impossible to deal with him.

because we're willing to deal -- i mean to negotiate how much we cut. what kind of caps we have over the next 10 years. what the balanced budget looks like. we're willing to give him an increase in his debt limit. but the president won't work with us. he just gives speeches. we can't vote on a speech. >> sean: they is very important for the american people to understand they early watch is going on. when 64% of the american public supports cut, cap and balance and 75% want a balanced budget amendment, he's losing the debate. i think it is important we put the proper point in perspective on this he got his budgets passed. those are his budgets. he go his stimulus plan his obamacare deal, changed the rules, bribed senator or the moral equivalent. he got us four trillion in debt in under three years. i guess, at this point in time you would think he would come up with a plan on his own. is there a plan that you know that he's advocating request many >> no, i don't.

there's only one plan that actual in legislative language that has been passed by the the house that will meet the criteria of standard & poor's and moody's so we won't lose our aaa rating. that's cut, cap and balance. it is common sense. americans would support it and understand it. the fact that the president is not even willing to consider balancing our budget over the next 10 years is somewhat frightening to me. we know he's not serious about the debt, because his budget raises the debt another 10 trillion dollars. for him to come back and now say we can cut it one or two trillion, all that means is we'll add eight or nine trillion to our debt rather than 10 this is not acceptable. i think we are at a point as you and i have talked about, where political solutions are not going to work. we need real solutions to cut our debt and the only way to do that is move towards a balanced budget. >> sean: he asked for this job. he campaigned for this job.

he made promises that he has yet to fulfill as it relates to this job. specifically, when he was using scare tactics last night and class warfare and wouldn't offer a solution himself and was blaming everybody but himself, what does that tell us about this president? >> it seems very immature. it certainly not like leaders we've had in the past, democrat or republican. who will state a position. try to persuade americans his way. he's just trying to cast blame here. he knows his policies have made our economy much, much worse. and he needs desperately to blame the republicans on this. he won't put a plan out, because if he does, even the democrats won't vote for it, as we saw with his budget. so he's not going to lead. we are not seeing leadership from the senate, the democrats in the senate. the only leadership we've seen has come out of the house. speaker boehner led the way on

cut, cap and balance. he's trying to offer an alternative. i don't support it. at least he's out there trying to offer solutions. >> sean: we are go to talk to chambliss and coburn later. i was unhappy the senate gave the president an alternative the gang of six the mcconnell plan. you are right. none of the republicans voted for a stimulus, his budgets or health care bill. now they voted for the ryan plan they passed it. they voted for cut, cap and balance, they bassed it. speaker boehner has a plan. the white house said they will veto it. harry reid said it is dead on arrival. at this point, is there anything left on the table that they can do? it seems that i would just lay it on the president's doorstep and say fine we passed three bills, it is up to you. we only control one house here. >> mitch mcconnell and the senate and speaker boehner the

house they are trying to put something out there, because they don't want to go past august 2nd. speaker boehner tonight is working on revisions of his plan to try to get enough republicans to pass it. i think we need to insist on cut, cap and balance. we can negotiate various as pacifics of. if the democrats are -- aspects of it. if the democrats are not willing to debate any plan. i don't want any more gangs or behind closed doors meetings. it is time to bring this to the public so they can see what the democrats are for and what the republicans are for. i think they will see us ready to compromise. but not willing to give away our country. >> sean: you were attacked by haley barbour today. he said our people have to understand we can't let the perfect be the enemy of good. he said in politics purity is a dog loser. we can't go out with the idea we are going to be pure or we are going to do nothing.

talking pretty much about you. the headline is haley barbour criticize demint for not supporting boehner. your reaction? i'm getting a lot of criticism and i expect it. this is not about purity, nowhere close. if i had my way we would be balancing our budget in the next five years and i think we need to. i'm willing to work with the president, democrats, moderate republicans. if we don't put our country on a path towards a balanced budget we are putting it on a path towards abruptly. -- bankruptcy. that's the only two choices we are facing. i'm not willing to support any plan that doesn't realize we need to move towards that balanced budget. >> sean: where is the leadership in the white house? it doesn't exist. thank you. >> thank you sean. >> sean: the president's debt strategy backfires. his base goes running the other way. we'll tell you which groups are deserting the anointed one and why he may be in trouble as a result of all of this come 2012. stuart varney and dana perino are here.

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add a little...or a lot. for a drink that's just the way you like it. make it yours. make it mio. >> sean: the president put all of his cards on the table in his address to the nation last night. making it clear his strategy in the debt debate demonizes his opponents from it end the american people and take cheap shots. is that strategy working with the american people? the latest poll done before

negotiations broke down shows a staggering 60% disapprove of his leadership on the budget deficit. 38% are happy with what they've seen. perhaps even more demoralizing is his base fleeing in droves among liberal democrats. support plummeted 22 points. up over 50% a year ago among african-americans. the number who think the administration has made the economy better has plunged 54%. down from 77% in october 2010. looks like the president is facing an uphill battle on all fronts. joining me with reaction host of varney and company, stuart varney. former white house press secretary dana perino. also one of the cast members on our new hit show the five at five. >> can we get four minutes next week? >> sean: absolutely.

republicans have put forward multiple plans. the president has no plan. the president says even the boehner plan which he was struggling to get members to support. the big flaw in that plan he was on radio explaining it today. this select committee. who are the people? when are the cuts coming where are the cuts going to be? that was the flaw. all that aside. he's got another plan. the president has no plan. >> i was stunned they allowed the president to go to the east room by himself and give a partisan speech with no plan in place and calling on members of the public to call the members of congress. i heard today that calls were up but they weren't what the president wanted. it is saying don't cave. surprisingly the poll you just read 38% of the people who still think he's handling this well? that you don't have a plan that you can explain it. and ed henry now with fox news as a white house correspondent

pressed today, pressed jay carney on why don't you have a plan? i can imagine how you explain why you don't. >> sean: we'll get into this in the next segment. it angers me now. that republicans are competing only with their own deal. the president gets to throw darts and say no, no, no. where is his leadership stuart? >> it is not there. if what you thought was going to be leadership came out last night, it did not. that was an address to the nation. i've been in america long enough to know when you address the nation, when the president goes out there addresses the nation he attempts to bring us together. >> sean: scaring old people, class warfare. >> and diminishing the office. >> sean: and blaming your boss. >> it is so old and not working. >> you're talking about the way support is moving away from the president from various constituencies. i think it is about to get worse.

america is about to be downgraded. >> sean: it already has been. >> to some degree. it is going to are formally downgraded soon. it is on the president's watch. and it is president's fault. the president's failed economic policies and his endless, mindless spending which has produced this downgrade. >> to sean's point then if that happens, and the only game in town is boehner's plan that is on tape, then what can people possibly support? you can't support air. >> sean: conservatives are saying, and i feel this way in my heart. i don't want any caving, at this point. because i fear we are on a path 25 trillion dollars. if we use baseline budgeting, all of these plans are stilloñ. projecting 7% increases in spending every year across the board. that's dangerous. add to that, rosey case growth

scenarios inevitable interest rate rise with the -- >> and 's cockamamy scheme to say when we cone be in iraq and afghanistan. >> we are on the road to greece friday this book we are going to find out how much the economy grew in the last three months. it going to be dismal. certainly less than 2%. that's a lousy growth rate. that will make the deficit worse. we are on the road to greece, no question. >> sean: interest rates go up we get downgraded any savings we are talking about is wiped out. lower growth rate, any savings is again. >> at growth rates projected in the plans i've seen and the president's budget assume 4% growth. are you kidding me? you think you are going to get 4% growth in the coming years? not going to happen. >> what is so troubling about this, i had somebody tweet me before i came out, remind

everybody that most americans live within their means. all this talk about raising the debt ceiling every five, six, seven, eight months that doesn't happen in real life families. what has happened is, we've been playing musical chairs for decades. now the music has stopped. >> sean: connie mack and rand paul have a plan. if we would get rid of all growth for the next six years projected, all across the board and have a 1% cut, every year for six years from where we are now, we would balance the budget in six years. >> is it going to pass? >> sean: with this president, no. >> i think it would be very hard. in the boehner plan there is something that troubles a lot of people and i understand why. this is the super committee -- >> sean: i don't trust them. >> you asked a good question, who will be on that committee? who would want to be? i think they will put from the

senate side, only very safe members. somebody like eclair mccaskill, she won't be on it. take a claire mccaskill, she won't be on it. >> sean: we can't win with that they are trying. the president has done nothing. >> i think there's another way to lack at this, there's a different in leading and putting out a plan and being willing to be the pinata and take the blows for it. >> sean: i've never seen somebody so over his head than this guy. >> where is the leadership? it is not there. >> sean: coming up, did the gang of six proposal cause the president to demand billions more in tax hikes and lead to this deadlock? we ask to key members. >> the constitutional loophole that the president could invoke by himself. how will that hold up in court. we have a constitutional

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>> sean: they set out to find middle ground on the debt debate and responded by a bipartisan solution that could reduce definites by nearly four trillion. did the gang of six proposal

caused more problems? according to washington times blogger, it is likely when the president caught wind of the plan last week in which three gop senators agreed to higher tax increases than what obama presented to boehner, the anointed one decided to ask for 400 billion dollar more. did the gang's plan cause the break down in negotiations with speaker boehner? now it looks like no plan on the table is likely to pass, what does the gang plan to do next? joining me with reaction are two of the gang of six tom coburn and saxby chambliss. welcome back, thanks for being with us. >> god to be with you. sean senator coburn i -- i was mad at you for this. the day that they were voting on cut, cap and balance, which both of you support in the house of representatives, the president races to the

white house briefing room. hang on, stop the presses we've got this new deal. in that sense i felt this was diverting attention, the country away from what i think was a really sound, good solution. did the president purposely use your plan, in your view to distract the country? >> i don't know what people's motivations are, it obviously did. the sad situation is the house passed cut, cap and balance. and the leadership of the senate instructed all of his members to table it so we couldn't even have a vote on it. i don't know what the motivations are. but the fact is you're right that's the one thing that could have solved our problems. >> sean: why senator coburn were you supporting this instead of everybody uniting? it seems tactically that the republicans seem to, with the president having three

republican plans out there no plan by himself, we were negotiating conservatives, republicans were negotiating against themselves. >> well, remember when we started this there wasn't any intention to tie what we were doing to the debt limit. events over took that it was delayed for a long period of time. there still isn't an intention to tie it to debt limit. the debt limit is a symptom of the bigger problem which was what we were trying to address. how do we get almost four trillion the on thing that is going to satisfy the rating agencies how do we get four trillion on the table and start working that? we have to come together. we don't control the senate. we don't control the white house. so if you can make a move that would make that, that would get the country out of a problem, solve a problem why would we not want to try to do that. >> sean: senator chambliss, you told me like senator

coburn is saying, this was not a group that was trying to solve the debt limit crisis that we are currently in. but the day this was announced, the day cut, cap and balance was faking place that's the way the president -- was taking place, that's the way the president was presenting it to the country. >> it just so happen the day the six of us made a report back to the bipartisan group of 50 that showed up at a meeting that morning. we were just telling them what we had concluded. we really had not even reached a final agreement at that point in time. there was a lot of euphoria in the room. a lot of folks were agreeing with the direction in which we were moving.gtv they left the room that day, went outside to a horde of press. next thing it just snowballed. there was never any intention to take action that morning that would interfere with the cut, cap and balance debate on the house said. tom and i both support that.

i still support it. i think the balanced amendment is by far the best enforcement mechanism we can have when it comes to making meaningful discretionary budget cuts. these two proposals are mute -- mutually exclusive to the standpoint point that they both will work. they both will have good assets that could be melded together at some point. >> sean: did the president then, when he ran into that briefing room, misrepresent what you were working on to the american people? i think this is very important. >> you know, he's had a total lack of leadership on this issue. he pounds the table, he gets angry at press conferences and think he's making an impact and showing leadership. and he's doing everything but that, unfortunately. i think he was doing anything he could at that point in time to deflect away from the fact

that this is falling apart on his watch. and it truly is. he owns this economy. the economy is not doing well. and now he owns this issue. even when we get buy the debt ceiling, we are still going to owe 14 1/2 trillion and it is going up everyday that's why the group that tom and i were working with was focused on the long term not the short term. >> sean: let me ask if you support in idea. i've been in contact with congressman connie mack and senator ran paul many senator coburn, the idea of cutting 1%, changing the baseline. we have all these cash all these cbo scored budgets into the future that all project out 7% growth a year. if we could reduce spending 1% a year, every year for six years they contend starting where the budget is now and getting rid of all those projected increases, we could balance the budget in six years. is that something that could

get traction in the senate? >> yeah, because again that would do it. but that's a political answer rather than a policy answer. let me tell you why. we have so much waste. i put out nine trillion dollars of potential cuts. when you do a 1% solution where you cut everything 1%, there are some things that the government has a responsibility to do. and what you do is you don't reform 'em, you don't improve 'em, you don't make 'em more effective you just cut 1%. the stuff that is wasting you cut 1% instead of 100%. the stuff that might be what we want to do, you cut it too. it is the chicken's way out. members of the congress need to study and know and you can find nine trillion reasons to cut the budget if you just look at back in the black. >> sean: they are saying if you wanted to cut education by 10%, and you can come to consensus, then it is an

across the board cut. so congress has the option to add as long as they reach that dollar figure. >> as long as you make members of congress make tough decisions. what this has all been about, the reason you are seeing this battle is too many people don't want to own up and go home and explain, i'm not for this and here's why. here's why we need to fix it. it is like medicare. you can say all you want the president can say all he wants we are not going to touch medicare. the fact is in 26 teen medicare part a goes belly -- in 2016 medicare part a goes belly up. >> i think it is another good idea on the take. the democrats are not going to let us consider. bruce cook of atlanta is the author of that proposal good guy, smart guy. if you do it for seven years in a row you get spending down to 18% of gdp, that's where we need to be.

you don't reform entitlements by cutting everything 1% a year. we've got to reform entitlements if we are going to make this work. >> sean: thank you both. appreciate your time. >> when we come back our great, great american panel, next. [ male announcer ] a moment that starts off ordinary can become romantic just like that. a spark might come from -- a touch, a glance -- it can come along anywhere, anytime. and when does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their abity to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven low-dose tablet you take every day so you can be ready anytime thment's right even if it's not every day. tell your doctor about your medical condition and all medications and ask if you're healthy enough for sexual activity. don't take cial if you take nitrates for chest pain as this may cause an unsafe drop in blood pressure. [ man ] do not drink alcohol in excess with cialis. side effects may include headache, upset stomach, delayed backache oruscle ache. to oid long-term injury eek immediate medical help

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>> sean: tonight on our great, great american panel radio talk show host mary walter is here. writer for miss blog caroline held is back. and peter johnson, jr. also back with us. house republicans passed three bills. they passed the ryan plan. they passed cut, cap and balance. they moved forward now with -- and introduced a third plan by speaker boehner. can you tell me caroline is the president's plan? >> the president wouldn't be proposing a plan because it needs to come from congress.

and the president has said that he will go after social security and medicare for someone on the left. >> sean: show me where -- >> why would the president have a plan it needs to come from congress. >> sean: forget that. what is the democratic party's plan? >> reid's plan in the green room we were talking how close reid and boehner are. it is to a point where they could compromise in conference committee. boehner is choosing not to because he wants to bring it up again in six months to smear the president. >> sean: reid's plan comes from savings other things. the president going to veto the boehner plan, dead on arrival according to harry reid. they passed two plans they won't sign on to or allow a vote on. >> massive failure of leadership. the president who has cried fox news how adopted the balanced approach of fox news

as his mantra going forward which is quite interesting. the professor's comment although i won't adopt it, because it seems to be extreme language is the president's policies morally reprehensible. i think it is reprehensible. >> going after the elderly, going after medicare. >> exactly. to say i don't know, call your congress people. pressure them to come up with a plan. and today you have people -- the press corp of the white house jumping like fish out of water saying mr. press secretary, what's the plan? what are you saying? >> sean: this is the point. the republicans keep putting plans out there. democrats, either won't vote on them or announce them dead on arrival or i'll veto it. caroline saying they have put forward plans. and the president is using old people. scaring them in this debate. scaring the military. none of which is true, because we still take in 200 billion

dollars a month. what are the democrats, we're waiting, seven days away. >> to your point caroline it has to come from congress. if this president were a leader he would sit down with these guys in the white house and work out some kind of a plan with them. >> he tried to. boehner walked away. >> he's not leading. he's not putting anything out. look at geithner with chris wallace. chris tried six ways to get him to say what is your plan if the debt ceiling is not passed? he either don't have a plan or he doesn't want anybody to know what his plan is. i think they don't have a plan. >> sean: you are right. the president is scaring everybody using catastrophe, disaster, doomsday rhetoric. >> there's going to be a 44% cut if we don't do something. >> sean: we have four trillion dollars of obama debt. obama's budgets passed, obama's stimulus passed -- look where we are.

>> he's contributed 10% to this problem. >> sean: more than 10%. no president has accumulated this amount of debt and deficit -- >> as a result of the lowest revenue in 60 years. wars that he did not get us into, one that he did. >> what the president needs to contribute at this point is great leadership. he said he the capacity to lead. he said he had the capacity to forge coalitions. we need to call upon him to forge a coalition in wash gone between diverse groups. -- in washington, between diverse groups. >> sean: he begged for the job. all he does, he starts last night's speech -- >> i watched and i spoke to my family members and a lot of friends that was not the tone that democrats or republicans were looking -- >> 77% now blame republicans. [ talking over each other ] >> he it correctly. >> i'm not saying it is true.

[ talking over each other ] >> when it comes to who they think is to blame, they are blaming republicans. >> sean: no even stan greenberg says blaming republicans isn't working any more. more with our great american panel. we'll be fighting during the break. host: do people use smartphones to do dumb things? man 1: send, that is the weekend. app grapgic: yeah dawg! man 2: allow me to crack...the bubbly! man 1: don't mind if i doozy. man 3: is a gentleman with a brostache invited over to this party? man 1: only if he's ready to rock! ♪ sfx: guitar and trumpet jam vo: geico. 15 minutes could save you 15% or more on car insurance. ♪ let me make you smile ♪ let me do a few tricks ♪ some old and then some new tricks ♪ ♪ i'm very versatile ♪ so let me entertain you

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>> sean: we continue with our great american panel. things sorry bad white house senior advisers warning of a possible depression. take a look. >> we are seven days away from an unprecedented financial event in this country's history that could put us towards a depression because house republicans led by speaker boehner are unwilling to compromise one inch. >> sean: s&p said we are going to be downgraded. we've been downgraded by another less known agency. moody's has said it is going to happen this is all on the president's watch. they are saying this may be a

depression. the president goes out, we have to live within our means we have four trillion of obama debt. we need to make tough choices. he has spent like a drunken sailor on steroids. he says we need a bipartisan approach. he has done nothing but reject partisanship, including the speech last night. >> the notion of financial meltdown in the world is fine to discuss. but there has to be a con come set of actions. you can't abdicate your authority as president and throw it out to the masses and say we need public pressure to foster solution. he needs to say this is my solution, let's debate in. you republicans are debating i have a solution that i think is going to satisfy everyone. you a all not like it, but i'm stepping out with it. so to engage in fear-mongering and to make people afraid, and people are afraid when they hear this. they say my mutual funds, my

ira, the stock market what is a treasury bill going to be worth? is my mortgage going up? to throw that out and not come forward with a constructive solution that engages all americans, that's wrong. >> sean: caroline, you are right. add to that 18% real unemployment all the americans whose homes, their key investment is underwater this is a real problem. we are sitting on another housing bubble. you are saying it is up to congress. we are seven days from what his own advisers are saying a depression and he doesn't have the leadership skills. every leader in business i've ever met would never allow this to happen. this shows his lack of experience and he's in over his head. >> sean we've never seen partisan politics like we've seen at this present time. >> sean: from him. >> mostly from the republicans. so president obama if he were to put his name on anything it is not the way legislation works --

>> there's never been a speech delivered like that from the white house. >> he was telling the american public. he was trying to move us past part andship -- partisanship. >> sean: he blamed everybody. >> that's what he does. this president is good at blaming everybody but him. he doesn't want to own anything. when he was sent for he voted present more than yay or nay. it is all about reelection for him. >> he didn't blame anyone last night. >> yes he did. he blamed republicans. >> sean: would these adjectives be accurate, arrogant, angry, immature, petulant. >> compromise. >> i hope in the end they are not. >> sean: i'm asking up to this point. i'm not trying to put you on the spot. >> at this moment, unfortunately, they are accurate. we need coalition bidding. and we need prayers. and we need people to come together on this issue and say

let's get it resolved in a way that the country guess forward and we say to the world, -- goes forward. and we say to the world we are united, strong the world's leader in finance angie yo politics. look at -- and geopolitics. >> sean: we are going to be greece. >> there is no way we will ever be greece. >> in five years we'll be greece. >> we don't have the same economic policy that doesn't even make sense. >> sean: thank you for being with us. there's been a lot of talk about the president invoking the 14th amendment to the constitution by raising the debt ceiling by himself. we'll talk with dr. larry arnn, next. gas and bloating. with the strains of good bacteria to help balance your colon.

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>> sean: the 14th amendment states the validity of the public debt of the united states authorized by law including debts incurred for payments of pensions and boundties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion shall not be questioned. this critical provision is stirring a new debate among legal squalors that is whether or not it gives the president

of the -- of the united states the power to raise the debt ceiling with or without congressional approval. last week former president clinton said in order to prevent default august 2nd, he would invoke this option. "without hesitation and force the courts to stop me." when the anointed one was asked if he would consider utilizing the constitutional escape clause he wasn't so sure. >> the president: there have been some suggestions that a president could use that language to basically ignore this debt ceiling rule, which is a statutory rule, it is not a constitutional rule. i have talked to my lawyers. they don't -- they do not -- they are not persuaded that is a winning argument. >> sean: granted this amendment was drafted in the civil war era. some constitutional experts argue because it was written in such vague terms it is possible to conclude a broader

regulation that can be applied today. joining me with reaction president and a good friend of mine of hillsdale college dr. larry arnn. we've been friends a long time. i saw clinton's remarks and i said uh-oh. i figure he was sending a message to president obama, go this way. reaction? >> that civil war amendment, the 14th amendment has to do with things is states may and may not do what they are saying we've contracted a lot of debt, now we have our union back together and we are all going to pay it. we are not going to pay your debts. the debts of the confederacy. we are not all going to pay that. it is a statement about something terribly important, which is the public debt of the united states. but it not a statement about any particular branch in the federal government to control ñ if obama were right, if he took this view or bill clinton were right, then by the way, anything that the federal

government does that increases the debt or increases expenses, or decreases revenues, could be read as a violation of this part of the 14th amendment. that won't do. so then -- there's a big thing about the constitution. separation of powers is fundamental to it. money matters starts in the congress. specifically in the house of representatives. if he were to try to use this provision of the constitution written for a different purpose, to overcome that huge thing, that would be unconscionable. >> sean: it was interesting. he did say he checked with his lawyers. i got the impression that deep down inside he probably wanted to do it. maybe for no other reason he recognized there would be a political outcry. >> then he said, president obama is on record as saying that community organizing, after he had taken an oath to join the senate of

the united states, that community organizing should be used to overcome certain things that the founders put in the constitution. i don't think his respect for the constitution is a famous thing. he doesn't have it. what he said was, it isn't a winning argument. he didn't say it is not a true argument. >> sean: he's revealing the politics behind this. a lot of constitutional issues have come up. when senator mcconnell outlined his plan, you rightly point out, spending starts in the congress, they pass the bills. john boehner told me this, he said that in fact, mr. president with all due respect my reading of the constitution, he said this to the president we pass the bills and you decide whether to sign them or not if passed in both houses. it is congress that starts. senator mcconnell seemed to be willing to say we'll give up our congressional mandate, obligation, and we'll cede it to president because we don't want the political liability

many constitutionally, i concluded they had the right to do that. why would they give up that responsibility when they were elected for that purpose? >> they shouldn't. another thing going on, we have ourselves a game of chicken. we're up close to something that has never happened that something is terribly important. alexander hamilton, among others, caused the new constitutional government after the passage of the constitution, to payoff the revolutionary war debts. that raise -- that stunk to high heaven. a lot of people bought those bonds and they declined to almost no value and belonged to speculators who paid a nickel on the dollar. hamilton's point was, if we pay these debts the world is going to know our word is strong. the united states of america since that day, has never had a missed payment, ever. >> sean: dr. larry arnn thank you.