of "hannity". special edition saturday night, 9:00 eastern, we're working and thanks for being with us and thanks for watching the news and debate on fox. have a great weekend. we'll see you tomorr looking our you. now to bret baier in iowa, for the debate. [ applause ] >> bret: thanks bill. welcome to ames, iowa on the campus of the iowa state university and the republican presidential debate. [ applause ] our event is being sponsored by fox news and the washington examiner. in conjunction with the iowa republican party. we've been seeing on fox news channel, streamed on foxnews.com. you can log on and check out how you can react to our debate. we are being heard on fox news radio and these folks in the studio are just fired up, as you can hear.

[ cheering and applause ] >> bret: okay. now let's meet the candidates. former senator rick santorum. businessman herman cain. congressman ron paul. former massachusetts governor mitt romney. congresswoman michelle bachmann. former minnesota governor tim pawlenty. former utah governor jon huntsman. and former speaker of the house, newt gingrich. [ applause ] >> bret: joining me at the desk tonight chris wallace. and byron york and susan ferrechio. we are gathered at an unsettling moment for americans. we've watched the stock market on a wild rollercoaster ride this week as people are anxiously tracking balances and retirement accounts and college funds.

14 million people don't have a job tonight. millions more have given up looking or have taken part-time work to scrape by. the nation's credit rating downgraded for the first time in history. last weekend in afghanistan, more american lives were lost than on any other day in this decade-long conflict. so tonight, we are respectfully asking, the candidates, to try to put aside the talking points. to try to put aside the polished lines that get applause on the campaign trail, near iowa and around the country. and to level with the american people. to speak from the heart about how you would navigate this country, through the challenges america faces. let's begin. congresswoman bachmann, you say you can turn the economy around within one quarter by cutting taxes, reducing

spending and repealing the health care law. this week you said it isn't that difficult and solutions aren't that tough to figure out. isn't it unrealistic to suggest that something as mastiff and complex as the u.s. economy can -- as massive and complex as the u.s. economy can rebound in three months? >> we can start to seek recovery within three months. not the whole recovery. but we can to see it if we put in place what we know to be true. we should not have increased the debt ceiling. in the last two months i was leading on the issue of not increasing the debt ceiling. that turned out to be the right answer this is part of the movement that we are seeing across the country. i've been leading that movement. i've been giving it voice. it is not just republicans. it is affected democrats, independents, libertarians. all coming together, because two days from now bret, we get to send a message to barack obama. you are finished in 2012!

you will be a one term president! [ applause ] >> bret: governor romney congresswoman bachmann says she can start to turn the economy around in three months. how long would it take you? >> i'm not going to give awe exact timeframe. if you spend your life in the private sector and understand how jobs come and go, you understand that what president obama has done is the opposite of what the economy needed. almost every action he took made it harder for entrepreneurs to build businesses. for banks to make loans. for businesses to hire and build more capital. what s to be done, seven things come to mind: make sure our corporate tax rates are competitive with other nations. make sure regulations and bureaucracy works not just for the bureaucrat in washington but for businesses that are trying to grow. three, have trade policies that work for us.

four, energy policy that gets us energy secure. five, to have the rule of law, six great institutions that build human capital. capitalism is also about people. and seven, to have a government that doesn't spend more than it takes in. and i'll do it. [ applause ] >> bret: governor romney, you mentioned leadership on the economy. you are the front-runner in this gop field. when it came to weighing in on the debt ceiling deal in congress, many on this stage say you were missing in action. some columnists said you were in the mittness protection program. hours before the house voted you released a statement saying you could not support the bill. is that leadership? >> this is a critical issue, how big is the government going to be? in the days of john f. kennedy the government took up with the state and local governments 27% of the economy. today government consumes 237%

of the economy. we are inches from no longer having a free economy in is a critical issue. therefore, well before the debate got pushed along, i signed a pledge, saying i would not raise the debt ceiling unless we had cut, cap and balance. and that is the view i took june 30th and reiterated that throughout the process and to the end. >> bret: when candidates go over the a lotted time they've agreed to this system that's you hear, the bell. we'll try to not ring the bell that much. it is not the doorbell. to be clear here, you congresswoman bachmann and congressman paul being against that final compromise deal. if you were president, you would have vetoed that bill? >> i'm not going to eat barack obama's dog food. what he served was not what i would have done if i were president. if i had been -- i'm not president now, though i like

to have been. if i were president, i would have cut federal spending. capped federal spending as a percentage of the total economy. and work for a balanced budget amendment. if we do that we can rein back the scale of government. that's what i said june 30th. >> bret: congressman paul, when standard & poor's downgraded the country's credit rating one of the reasons s&p listed was because of partisan gridlock in washington. what specific things would you do as president to increase growth, calm the markets, create jobs that could pass through a divided congress? >> they didn't downgrade it mainly because they couldn't come to a conclusion. they didn't dough what was going on. the country is bankrupt and nobody wanted to admit. when you are bankrupt you can keep spending. these weren't cuts. you have to restore sound money. you have to understand why you have a business cycle. why you have boons and busts.

if you don't to way you can solve the problems. a failed monetary system that -- the interest rates that are lower than they should be encourages debt. to get out of that, all this other tinkering, you cannot do that unless you liquidate debt. you don't bailout the people that are bankrupt and dump the debt on the people that is what has happened. you have to allow liquidation of debt, eliminate the investment, get growth again by having a better tax structure lower taxes invite capital back into this country. get less regulation. under those conditions you can have growth again. >> bret: and you can get it through a divided congress? [ laughing ] >> the divided congress will exist for a long time to come. yes, you would have to get it through a divided congress. the one thing is, if you approach it constitutionally on the principles of liberty,

you can bring people together. >> if we have to cut, maybe we wouldn't be so determined that you can't cut one nickel out of military around the world. near the democrats or the republicans want to cut that. if you want to cut you have to put the militaryism on the table as well. [ applause ] >> bret: mr. cain, we know you have a four point economic plan. one specific thing, what one specific thing would president cain do first to restart the economic engine? again with the caveat that one thing would have to get through a divided congress. >> make the tax rates permanent. that's one of the four point plans. the business sector is the economic engine. you have a group that is is talking about spending. you have a group talking about cutting. i represent growth. it starts with the business sector putting fuel in the engine. in addition to that one thing that you asked know identify, we must have a maximum tax

rate for corporations and individuals of 25%. take the capital gains tax rate to zero. take the tax on repatriated profits to zero. make them permanent. and i believe we can turn it around. one other thing, we don't have an option to wait longer than 90 days. it is imperative that we get this economy going in 90 days, with the next president of the united states of america. >> bret: governor huntsman you new hampshire union leader you intend to convene a council of business leaders to figure without is needed to improve our economy. you have been running for president for three months now. we checked your website. we were unable to find a detailed plan in the middle of an economic crisis, shouldn't you already have a pretty detailed plan by now? >> the plan you will find on our website, it is coming. we've been in the race only for a month and and -- and a

half. i intend to do what i did as governor of utah. we to be a good state and made it number one in this country. if you want to -- i'm going to do what i did as governor. it is called leadership. looking at how the free market system works. creating an environment that speaks to growth. we cut taxes historically. we created the most business-friendly environment in the entire country. we were the best managed state in the country. we maintained a aaa bond rating. all of the things this country needs. when you look at me and ask, what is that guy going to do? look at what i did as governor. that is what i'm going to do and what this country feeds. >> bret: speaker gingrich some on this stage have run big companies, turned around companies, some manage payrolls. what makes you more qualified than anyone else on this stage to create jobs and grow the ?

>> you've been asking about divided government. this coming saturday is the 30th anniversary of ronald reagan signing the tax cut done with divided government. he did it by going to the american people with clarity, creating a sense of urgency. bringing pressure to bear on democratic congressmen and building a bipartisan majority. that tax cut lead to seven years of growth, which in our current economy would be the equivalent of adding 25 million jobs, four trillion to the economy and 800 billion dollars this new federal revenue. a decade later, as speaker of the house we had divided government many we negotiated with bill clinton. largest entitlement reform of your lifetime. we passed the first tax cut in 16 years. largest capital gains tax cut in history. unemployment dropped to 4.2%. how would the country feel today at 4.2% unemployment?

that's my credential. >> bret: governor pawlenty you say your plan with tax cuts and spending caps would grow the economy by 5% a year for 10 years. a rate that never been achieved in 10 years in a row. with the last two quarters averaging less than 1% growth even some republican budget analysts skeptical, openly, of that plan. is your proposal just pie in the sky? >> the united states of america needs a growth target. it needs to be aggressive and bowl. i don't want the united states' growth target to be anemic like barack obama. is the bar high? yes do we need that growth to get out of this hole? you bet. i hope people go to my website and read that plan. it is the most specific of any candidate in this race. where is barack obama on these issues? you can't find his plans on of the pressing financial issues. where is barack obama's plan on social security reform?

medicare reform? medicaid reform? i'll offer a prize to anybody in this auditorium or watching on television, if you can find barack obama's specific plan on any of those items, i will come to your house and cook you dinner. [ laughing ] [ applause ] >> bret: what do you think of that? >> or if you prefer i'll come to your mouse and mow your land. in case mitt wins i'm limited to one acre. one acre. >> bret: governor any response? >> that's just fine. >> bret: okay. senator santorum, nothing about your lawn. governor pawlenty says america can quickly grow 5% a year for 10 years, with the right mix of policies. is he right? >> america has unbounded

potential. i think putting a limit on that potential, we've grown at faster rates. it has been focus on one thing as i've traveled to 68 count these iowa, 50 in the last 14 days, i've been talking about what we are going to do to grow the manufacturing sector. when i grew up in pennsylvania, a little steeltown, 21% of this country worked in manufacturing. it is now nine. if you want to know where the middle of america went. it went to china, malaysia we need to bring it back. i put together a four-point plan, including producing more energy. the big thing i proposed is take the corporate rate which makes us uncompetitive. particularly in exporting goods and cut it to zero for manufacturers. you want to create opportunity for businesses, cut that tax to zero.

our jobs will come back. [ applause ] >> bret: turn ing the economy around the is top -- turning the economy around is the topic we've received the most messages, teeths about. finding specific solutions to the country -- tweets. finding specific solutions will be the topic of debate toe night. >> government now pawlenty and congresswoman book hand there's an expression expression minnesota nice. governor pawlenty, you say representative bachmann has no accomplishments in congress. you have questioned her ability to serve as president because of her history of migraines. governor, is she unqualified or just beating you in the polls? >> chris to correct you, i have not questioned congresswoman bachmann's

migraines. i don't think that is an issue. the only headache i hear on the campaign trail is the headache barack obama has given the people of this country with his lousy leadership and lucy economy. [ applause ] >> as to congresswoman bachmann's record. she has done wonderful things in her life. it is a fact in congress her record of accomplishment and results is nonexistent. that's not going to be good enough for our candidate for president of the united states that is not going to be good enough for the president of the united states to serve in that capacity. the american people are going to expect and demand more. we need somebody who can contrast with barack obama on results. if you go to my record in minnesota you will see government spending went from historic highs to historic lows. we an point conservative justices. we did health care reform the right way no mandates, government take-overs and that is the record we will need to

beat barack obama. >> chris: congresswoman bachmann i'm going to ask you in a moment your own question about governor pawlenty. i want to give you a moment to respond to his comment you have to record of accomplish and there's something missing in your resume because you do not have executive experience. >> thank you for asking the question. i would say governor, when you were governor in minnesota you implemented cap and trade in our state. and you praised the unconstitutional individual mandates and called for requiring all people in our state to purchase health insurance that the government would mandate. third, you said the era of small government was over. that sounds more like barack obama, if you ask me. during my time in -- [ applause ] >> -- during my time in the united states congress i've fought all of these unconstitutional measures as well as barack obama am i led against increasing the debt ceiling the last two months.

>> chris: you want 'tis pated the question i was going to ask. congresswoman bachmann that about the worse thing you can say about a fellow republican in this campaign that he reminds you of barack obama? >> the policies that the governor advocated for were cap and trade. he praised and wanted to require minnesotans to purchase the unconstitutional individual mandate in health care. he said the era of small government is over. i have a very consistent record of fighting very hard against barack obama and his unconstitutional measures in congress. i'm very proud of that record. that is what qualifies me, as a fighter and representative of the people, to go to washington, d.c. and to the white house. people are looking for a champion. they want someone who has been fighting. when it came to health care, i brought tens of thousands of americans to washington to fight the unconstitutional individual mandates.

i didn't praise it. when it came to cap and trade, i thought it was everything that -- i fought it with everything in me, i introduced the lightbulb freedom of choiceéi a> chris: i'm sure you have been waiting for the opportunity governor pawlenty, 30 seconds to respond. >> i'm surprised congresswoman bachmann would say those things. not the kinds of things she said when i was governor. she has a record of misstating and making false statements. she says she is fighting for these things. she fought for less government spending, we got more. she led the effort against obama care, we got obamawear. -- obama care. it is not her spine we are worried about it is her record of results. if that is your view of results, please stop, because

you are killing us. >> chris: congresswoman bachmann. >> i was at the tip of the spear fighting against the implementation of obama care in the united states congress. nancy pelosi, harry reid and barack obama ran congress. but i gave them a run for their money. again on cap and trade i was there from the beginning giving speaker pelosi a run for her money. i asked her about her number one target to defeat last year i was taking them on, on nearly every argument they put forward. when others ran, i fought. and i ran against the increase of the debt ceiling. [ applause ] >> bret: let's hold our applause to get more questions in. >> chris: governor romney, you are campaigning as the man who can fix the economy. you acquired american pad and paper. two u.s. plans closed.

385 jobs cut. later almost 2,000 workers were laid off or relocated. when you were governor massachusetts ranked 47th of the 50 states in job growth. you are going to be the jobs president? >> absolutely chris. let me tell you how the real economy works we invested in 100 different companies. not all worked. there are some in washington that don't understand how the free economy works. they think if you invest in a business it is always going to and they don't always go well. i'm proud of the fact think that learned about how you can be successful at an enterprise, why we lose jobs, how you gain jobs. in those 100 businesses we invested in, tens of thousands of jobs, net/net were created. herman cain and i have worked in the real economy. if people want to send to washington someone who spent

their entire career in government, they can choose a lot of folks. but if they want to choose somebody who understands how the private sector works they have to choose one of us, because we've been in it during our career. as governor when i came in jobs were being lost month after month, we were able to add jobs, balance our budget and get massachusetts back on track. our unemployment was below the federal level three of the four years i was in office. >> bret: chris will continue his round of questions on this ron. coming up, illegal immigration, battle over health care. we'll be right back from ames, iowa, after a short break.

i'm chairman of the iowa gop thank you for joining us tonight. as the son and grandson of farmers i like many iowans was raised to appreciate hard work, thrift and personal responsibility. iowans understand a return to these same values necessary to get our nation back on track. from meeting candidates in our coffee shops to our fields the iowa caucuses provide everyday hardworking americans an opportunity to personally question presidential candidates on their principles and solutions for meeting the challenges facing our great nation. that process continues tonight. as our republican candidates share their vision with iowans and all americans at a time when our fellow citizens are seeking strong and bold leadership. again, thank you for joining

us and thank you for being part of the first in the nation caucus process. >> bret: welcome back to the auditorium on the campus us of iowa state. and the first republican debate in the hawkeye state. back to another fiery round of questions from chris wallace. >> chris: thank you. speaker gingrich one of the ways we judge a candidate is the campaign they run in june your entire staff resigned along with your staff here in iowa. they said you were undisciplined in campaigning and fundraising. last report you were a million dollars in debt. how do you respond to people who say that your campaign has been a mess so far? >> first of all, chris, i took seriously to put aside the talking points. i wish you would put aside the gotcha questions. [ applause ]

>> like ronald reagan who had 13 senior staff resign the morning of the new hampshire primary and whose new campaign manager laid off 100 people, because he had no money. like john mccain who had to run an inexperience sieve campaign because the consultants spent it. i intend to run on ideas. congress should come back monday and repeal the dodd-frank peel, sarbanes-oxley, repeal obama care. hard idea for washington reporters to cover, but an important idea because it is key to american manufacturing success. i would love to see the rest of tonight's debate asking us what we would do to lead an america whose president has failed to lead instead of playing mickey mouse games. [ applause ]

>> chris: speaker gingrich if you think questions about your record are mickey mouse, i'm sorry i think those are questions people want to hear answers to and you are responsible for your records. >> i think that there's too much attention paid by the press corp about the campaign minutia and not enough paid by the press corp to the basic ideas that us from barack obama. -- that distinguish us from barack obama. [ applause ] >> chris: governor huntsman, at the risk of raising speaker gingrich's ire i'm going to ask you about your record. you supported a stimulus package in 2009. you said the obama package was not big enough. you signed on a cap and trade market. you indivorce civil unions for same-sex couples and served as president obama's ambassador to china. some have suggested that maybe

you are running for president in the wrong party. >> chris, let me just say i'm proud of my service to this country. if you love your country, you serve her. during a time of war, during a time of economic hardship. when asked to serve your country in a sensitive possession where you can bring a background to help your nation i'm the kind of person who will stand up and did it and i will take that philosophy to my grave in terms of the stimulus. it was failed. i talked about the need for more tax cuts in the stimulus we didn't have enough. why did i talk about the feed for tax cuts for business? because we had done it in utah. we created a flat tax in utah, what needs to happen in this country. we got the economy moving. we became the number one job creator in this nation and the best managed state. that's what needs to happen in this nation. i'm running on my record and i'm proud to run on my record.

>> chris: mr. cain you have a compelling personal story and strong record as a businessman. you also have a growing list of questionable statements. you said that communites have the right to ban muslims from building mosques, before you later apologized. you have stated that you do not have a firm plan yet as to what you would do in afghanistan until you talk to the generals. you at one point in the campaign didn't know about the so-called palestinian right of return during a big debate about the mideast peace issues. how do you reassure people that you know enough to be president of the united states sir? >> you want me to answer all of those in one minute chris? pick one. i know more about the palestinian right of turn issue now than i did then. but, i know about it. i've been documented. the first point that you raised about saying communities have a right to ban mosques. no, that's not exactly what i said.

unfortunately, the people who helped you put that together have misquoted me. i have gone on record and i put it in a press release. that says, if anyone misunderstood my intent, i apologize for that. but never will i apologize for saying that sharia law does not belong in the courts of the united states of america. [ applause ] >> relative to afghanistan, since we did this last, i have learned more about afghanistan. you may recall one of the things that i always stress make sure you are working on the right problem. we have three problems i now have a better understanding. if i get an opportunity to rebuttal, i'll tell you what those three are. >> bret: now we turn to sue soon ferrechio from the washington examiner. >> we start with governor huntsman. you said we need to bill a

fence to secure our borders then deal with millions of illegal immigrants already here. you said there has to be an alternative to sending them back. that's unreal list . are you proposing citizenship for illegal aliens? >> i'm a conservative problem solver. i'm pro-life, pro-second amendment, pro-growth and economics. when elected president the thing we need to do most on illegal immigration there has been zero leadership in washington. we've created this patchwork of solutions in a lot of the states which makes for a complex and confusing environment. when elected president, i'm simply going to prove to the american people that we can secure the border. that's what they want done. i'm not going to talk about anything else, until we get it done. secure the border. 1800 miles a third of it done between fencing and technology and boots on the ground, we can tpwrb. i will talk to the four border

state governors and get verification that we have secured the border. once that is done, we can move on. this discussion has zero in the way of intellectual credibility until such time as we secure the border. [ applause ] >> governor romney, in 2008 you said you favored allowing american companies to hire more skilled foreign workers. with the unemployment rate at 9.1%, do you still think employers need to import more foreign labor? >> of course not. at the same time, we want to make sure america is a home and welcome to the best of brightest in the world. if someone comes here and gets a ph.d in physics that is the person i would like to staple a green card to their diploma rather say go home. we let people overstay their visa, they get to stay. i want the best and brightest to be metered into the country

based on the needs of our sector and create jobs by bringing technology and innovation from people around the world. we are a nation of immigrants. we love legal immigration. for legal immigration to work we have to secure the border and we also have to crackdown on employers that hire people who are here illegally. i like legal immigration. i'd have the number of visas we give to people that come here legally, determined by the needs of our employment community. we have to secure our board and crackdown on those who bring and hire here illegally. >> mr. cain, when president obama joked about protecting the borders with alligators and a moat, do the only did you embrace the idea you uped the ante with a 20 foot barbed wire fence. were you spear ? >> america has got to learn how to take a joke. senate. applause ] >> lou me to give you my real

solution to the immigration problem. i yes, we must secure the border with whatever means necessary. promote the path to citizenship. we have a path to citizenship for i will -- illegal aliens it is called legal immigration. i happen to agree with empower the states. if we work on the right problem, we will be able to solve it. in the case of immigration we've got four problems we need to work on simultaneously. america can be a nation with high fences and wide open doors. that's what built this nation. we can have high fences and wide open doors, all at the same time. [ applause ] >> speaker gingrich, you recently told univison you are looking at the idea of having citizen boards choose which

illegal immigrants to stay and which go. who decides the memberships of the boards and how would they work? >> it is important to look at how the selective service commission worked in ww two. it was local, practical d making people taught it was fair and reasonable. i thought the president's speech in el paso where he talked about moats and al i go was the perfect symbol of his failure as a leader. he failed to get any immigration reform through when he controlled the senate and controlled us. he could ram through obamacare but he couldn't deal with immigration. now he has the republicans in the house in charge and attacks which i think is very sad for a president of the united states on an issue like this. we ought to control the border. i agree with governor huntsman we can. i would be prepared to take as many from homeland security's bureaucracy in washington and move them to texas, arizona

and new mexico, as needed to control the border. we should have english as the official language of government. and a method of distinguishing between people who have lived here a long time and people who have come here recently. >> congressman paul you are opposed to a system that requires employers to verify immigration status of their workers. why would you want to eliminate one more tool to curb illegal immigration? >> i don't like putting the burden on our businessmen to be a policeman. i also reisn't the fact that illegals come in -- i also reisn't the fact that illegals come in the country and have problems, if a church helps or feeds them, we don't blame the church. i have a strong position on immigration. i don't think we should give amnesty and they become voters. i do think we should deal with our borders. one way i would suggest we could do it is pay less attention to the borders between afghanistan and iraq

and pakistan and bring our troops home and deal with the border. why do we pay more attention to the borders overseas and less attention to the borders here at home? we now have a mess on the borders. it has more to do with it than just immigration. we are financing some of military against the drug dealers on the borders now to the tune of over a billion dollars. there is a mess down there. but it is much bigger than just the immigration problem. i do not believe in giving entitlements to illegal immigrants at all. there should be no mandates on the states to make them do it. [ applause ] >> bret: we'll be returning to the economy throughout the debate. byron york has the next of questions. >> we start with governor romney in 2005 when you were governor of massachusetts, you successfully appealed to standard & poor's to upgrade your state's credit rating.

you used a combination of spending cuts and new revenues to put massachusetts on a more sound financial footing. even approvingly cited a tax increase passed by the democratic state legislature. question, doesn't this show that sometimes raising taxes is necessary? >> no. i don't believe in raising taxes. as governor i cut taxes 19 times. let's talk about the first part what you said. i was fortunate enough to be a governor that got an increase in the credit rating in my state. we got a president who got a decrease in the credit rating of our nation. because our president doesn't understand how to lead and grow an economy. i was proud of the fact that republicans and democrats worked together in massachusetts to cut spending. i came in, we had a huge deficit. i to the legislature and said i want expanded powers to be able to cut spending not just slow rate of growth but cut

spending and they gave it to me and i did. every single year i was governor we balanced the budget. by the end of my term we had put in place over a two billion dollar rainy day fund that kind of leadership is what allowed us to get a credit upgrade from standard & poor's that's the leadership we need in the white house. >> government now pawlenty, you say you -- governor pawlenty you say you balanced without tax increases. in 2005 you levied a tax on cigarettes. you said you had to compromise with a democratic legislature to to end government shutdown. doesn't that show when leaders are faced with big deficiencies they sometimes have to raise taxes? >> -- no. i have the best record of financial management of any governor in the country. cato institute gave only four governors in america an "a" grid i was one. the other agree aren't running

the other three are not thinking about running. i had the first government shutdown in 150 years. we did put together a package, i pal withed the budget every time -- i balanced the budget every time i was governor. ended this year with a surplus. i did agree to the cigarette fee, i regretted that. the courts later held it to be a fee. nonetheless, it was an increase in revenues. we didn't even need it. my record of leadership in minnesota, cutting spendinging from historic highs to historic lows. balancing the budget every time. doing health care reform the right way. stands in contrast to barack obama. he should cancel his cape cod vacation, call the congress back and get to work on this. barack obama is missing in action. he should have the kind of leadership i had when i was governor of the state. >> next representative bachmann this is a question about that cigarette tax increase. you were in the minnesota state legislature, at the

time. you said you opposed the tax. in the end, you voted for it. now you promise never to raise taxes. why would you compromise then, but not now? >> that's right. i was very vocal against that tax. and i fought against that tax. the problem is, when the deal was put together, governor pawlenty cut a deal with the special interest groups and he put in the same bill, a vote to increase the cigarette tax, as well as the vote that would take away protections from the unborn. i made a decision, i believe in the sanctity of human life. and i believe you can get money wrong, but you can't get life wrong. that's why i came down on that decision that i made. [ applause ] >> governor pawlenty, do you have a response? >> what is wrong in the answer is the answer. congresswoman bachmann didn't vote for nabil because of a stripping away of pro-life protection she voted for it

and now ing that as an execution. she speaks of leading efforts in washington and pin minute. leading and failing is not the objective. leading and getting results is the objective. i've got the best record of results as any candidate in this race. >> this is exactly what i'm trying to illustrate. we need to have a president of the united states who stands firm on their conviction. this is what i have demonstrated for everyday that i have been in congress. i've a consistent record of standing on my convictions. i didn't cut deals with special interests where you put the pro-life issues together with tax increase issues. that's a nonnegotiable. when we come to a nonnegotiable, we must stand. and i stand. [ applause ] >> governor we'll come back around. very quickly. >> her answer is illogical if there were two bad things in

the bill a tax increase and hypothetically stripping away pro-life protections, which we weren't. then it is a double reason to vote against it. she voted for it. >> i need to respond to that. >> i understand. you have the next question senator. i promise. senate. applause ] >> congresswoman bachmann, 15 seconds. >> this is what i want to say, if a member has to vote one way think would be increasing the cigarette tax. another way they would not be voting for the7ew pro-life protection. it was a choice. the governor put us in that box. and i chose to protect human life. >> we'll come back around later. >> next to senator santorum. >> yes we are.

>> you see me in your hometown but you wouldn't see much of me on television. it is totally true tonight. >> deficit cutting super committee is now getting the work. democrats will demand savings come from spending cuts and tax increases maybe three dollars in cuts for every one dollar in higher taxes is there any ratio of cuts to taxes that you would accept? >> no. because that's not the problem. the problem is that we have spending that has exploded. government has averaged 18% of gdp as a percentage of the overall economy that government eats up. we are now at almost 25 . revenues down two, three percent if you look at the problem, the problem is in spending, not taxes. we'll get those taxes up if we grow the economy. i put forth a plan to grow the economy. i've provided leadership in the past to get bipartisan things done.

i sympathize with michelle bachmann who says i'm going to stand firm on these things. you need to stand firm on these things. but you can't stand and say give me everything i want or i will vote no. you have to find the principles like i did on welfare reform. i said three things to cut entitlement reform. end federal entitlement, which we did. require work, which we did. put a time limit onv&sç welfare. we did those three things. we compromised on everything else. i didn't get everything i wanted. but i got the core and we transformed welfare. you need leaders, people who are good at leadership, not showmanship. >> you would not negotiate on raising taxes? >> absolutely not. because it is not the problem. democrats know it is not a problem. you go out to the public and layout the facts. i've been traveling around iowa, i layout the facts to people. they say this makes sense. we need get the economy growing that doesn't mean

taking more out of it, that means creating energy jobs, manufacturing jobs. and my plan will do that. >> i'm going to ask a question to everyone. say you had a deal, a real spending cuts deal, 10-1 as byron said, spending cuts to tax)ñç increases. speaker you are already shaking your head. who on this stage would walk away from that deal? raise your hand if you feel strongly about not raising tabs you would walk away on the 10-1 deal. >> mr. speaker why are you shaking your head? >> i think this super committee is about as dumb an idea as washington has come up with this my lifetime. i used to run the house of representatives. i have some general notion of these things. the idea that 523 senators and congressman are going to sit around for 12 months while 12 people are going to sit in

some room and come up with a trillion more force us to choose between gutting our military and accepting a tax increase is irrational. they are going to walk in and say we can shoot you in the head or cut off your right leg, which do you prefer? what they ought to do is scrap the committee now. recognize it is a dumb kwrfpld go back to regular legislative business sign every subcommittee the task of findings saveses in the open through regular legislative order and get rid of this secret phony pweufplts. [ applause ] -- they all raised their hands. they are all saying they feel so strongly about not raising taxes that a 10-1 deal they would walk away from. now to chris wallace with questions on health care. >> chris: governor pawlenty, you admit that you -- in the last debate about governor

romney's health care plan. you said the president's plan and the romney plan are so similar that you called them both obamnicare and you said i don't think you can prosecute the case against president obama if you are a co-conspirator. can you tell governor romney what he and president obama have conspired to do? >> i don't want to miss that chance again chris. look, obamacare was patterned after mitt's plan in massachusetts. for mitt or anyone else to say there aren't substantial similarities or they are not essentially the same plan isn't credible. that's why i call it that and i'm happy to call that it again tonight. that is not the only similarity between governor romney's record and president obama's record. in spending, i've got the best

spending record i took minnesota's spending from highs to lows. mitt ran up spending in his watch as governor 44% in four years in the area of judicial selects the boston globe said two out of three or so of mitt's judicial selection, judge selections were either pro-choice, democrat or liberal. i appointed conservatives to my supreme court. we have to show contrast not similarities to barack obama. >> chris: governor romney 30 seconds to respond. >> i think i like tim's answer in the last debate better. there's some similarities between what we did in massachusetts and what president obama did. there's some big differences. one is, i believe in the 10th amendment of the constitution. that says, powers not specifically granded to the federal government are

reserved by the states and the people. we put together a plan that was right for massachusetts. the president took the power of the people and the states away and put in place a one size fits all plan. it is bad law, bad medicine and if i'm president of the united states on my first day i will direct the secretary of hhs to grant a waiver from obamacare to all 50 states. >> chris: governor, do you think that government, at any level has the right to make someone buy a good or service just because they are a u.s. resident? where do you find that authority that mandating authority, government making an individual buy a good or service in the constitution? >> chris, you're asking me what do we think we should do about obama care? i think you have to repeal obamacare and i will and put in place a plan that allows states to craft their own

programs. >> chris: where do you find that authority in the constitution? >> are you familiar with the massachusetts constitution? i am. the massachusetts constitution allows states to say our kids have to go to school. it has that power. the question is that a good or bad idea? i understand different people come to different conclusions. what we did in our state was we said people are going to the hospital and getting the stay to pay. taxpayers are picking up hundreds of millions of dollars of costs from people who are free riders. we said we are going to incest those people who can afford to pay for themselves, do so. we believe in personal responsibility. that was our conclusion. the right answer for every state is to determine what is right for those states no to impose obamacare on the nation. that's why i would repeal it. >> chris: congresswoman bachmann you are a big

believer of the 10th amendment and granting power to the states. does that make any difference whether mandatory health insurance is being imposed by a state or the federal government? >> no, i don't believe it does. i think the government is without authority to compel its citizens to purchase a product or service against their will. because effectively, when the federal government does that, what they are doing is saying to the individual, they going to set the price of what that product is. if the federal government can force citizens or if a state can force their citizens to purchase health insurance there is nothing that the state cannot do. this is clearly an unconstitutional action. whether at the federal level or state level. i will not rest as the president of the united states, until we repeal obamacare. as the nominee of the republican party, i also will not rest until i can elect

additional 13 senators who agree with me so we'll have a filibuster proof senate and we can repeal obamacare. [ applause ] >> chris: congressman paul, you are a constitutional expert. you talk a lot about the constitution way do you think of this argument the state has a constitutional right to make someone buy a good or service because they are a resident not because they are driving and need a license, just the fact they are a resident. >> the way i would understand the constitution the government can't prohibit the stays from doing bad things. -- the states from doing bad things. you don't send in a federal police force and throw them in court. they do have that leeway under our constitution. we have trouble in this medical problem. we've drifted so far from care differed by the marketplace. once you get the government involved and both parties have developed a bit of a medical

care delivery system based on corporations. corporations are doing well whether it is obama or under the republicanses. drug companies, insurance, organized medicine do well, management companies do the patient and doctors suffer. every time you have government get in with regulations there's a wedge driven in between the doctor and patient. we have to get the people more control of their care. that's why medical savings accounts could introduce the notion of market delivery of medical care. [ applause ] >> senator santorum your thoughts? >> first, i was the first author of medical savings accounts with john kasich in the house. this is an important argument. this is the 10th amendment run amok. michelle bachmann says she would go in and fight health care being imposed by states,

but wouldn't fight marriage being imposed by the states. that would be okay. we have ron paul saying, what the states, whatever they want to do on the 10th amendment is fine. if they want to pass polygamy, fine, sterilization, fine. no, our country is based on moral laws. lincoln said, the states do not have the right to do wrong. i respect the 10th amendment. but we are a nation that has values. we are a nation that was built on a moral enterprise and states don't have the right to tramp over those because of 10th amendment. [ applause ] >> when we come back, we'll take a short break we'll talk about a couple of people who are not here tonight. national security, foreign policy, war on terror and later, social issues. fired up crowd here. check out foxnews.com and vote in our online poll. we'll be right back after this

break.